Now This Is A Car Salesman

A guy walks into a dealership and wants to buy a $30,000 truck for $19,900, according to this blog entry by car salesman, “Bloodraven” (pictured). The mark gets with one salesman but then calls over to a second salesman he’s bought from a few years ago. Now the second salesman has to sell the truck for the first salesman. Read how salesman #2 fends off the seemingly unstoppable customer’s quest for a deal with a good jerk of the patriotic heartstrings…

I took him outside. We lit up a cigarette, and we walked. We talked about a few things, families, cars, football. We got to a truck that was almost exactly what he was wanting, and I leaned against it…

I told him that for every one hundred dollars the takes off the price of that vehicle, he takes five bucks out of our friend’s (the new salesperson) pocket. I told him calmly, “You know, that man is a Gulf war vet, and he fought hard to make sure that I can sit here today and talk to you freely, so I am going to fight hard to protect his interests. If we sell you this car at $4,000 below invoice like you want us to, you are doing him a dis-service. So, here is what we need to do. You need to go in there and apologize to that hard working soldier and come to the realization that what you need to look at less truck, or raise your price.”

A tear literally formed in his eye. He had no idea that the new guy was a war vet. He didn’t know the hell he went through over there. He felt terrible, and while I hate to see a customer feel like that, again, sometimes it is needed. I walked him back inside and showed him the pictures the salesperson had in his office. His unit, pictures of him in the desert, his awards and certificates. Even I didn’t know that this man was wounded in combat.

Three hours later, he left in his new truck smiling. He went up to the new guy and shook his hand, and said thank you. The beautiful part, he said it with pure conviction. I could tell he was saying more than “Thank you for the great deal you guys gave me.” He was saying “Thank you for everything you have done.”

That is my job people. I have been saying it for years. My job is not to sell cars. My job is not to turn a profit for the dealership. My job is to make sure that every person I touch in my day is left with a positive impression. My job is to make sure that every single person that crosses my path is changed. My job is to make friends and change lives. If you happen to buy a car along the way, then my day gets even better.

Was the discount unreasonable to ask for? Perhaps. Did the salesman merely present him with facts? Sure, the other guy was really a vet. Is that material to your sales arrangement? Absolutely not.

It was a calculated maneuver designed to, as “Bloodraven” writes, protect the dealership’s interests. Their interests, not yours. Watch out at the car dealership, they are sneaky mofos (see our post, “Dealerships Rip You Off With The “Four-Square,” Here’s How To Beat It“) and will turn every psychological trick they can to make the most profit. Become steel! Resist…

But hey, at least for the extra money he paid, the customer drove out of the dealership feeling like a really great person. Too bad that’s not going to fund your car payments.

A Day as a Salesman [My Ride] (Thanks to David!)


Edit Your Comment

  1. boandmichele says:

    I’m not really sure how to feel just now. I mean, it’s touching and all, the patriotism. However, isn’t that a tad low? I mean, even for a car salesman?

  2. bob9 says:

    I sell cars for Saturn. I can say I am one of the happiest sales people in the world. I love that our store cannot rip you off. GM should do this with all of their retail facilities.. They make great cars, its just the people that sell some of them are sleazy as all get out.

  3. matukonyc says:

    If I have to keep looking at this horrible font it’s “goodbye Consumerist” for me!

  4. boandmichele says:

    @bob9: i live in Spring Hill, TN. Saturn is really a great company, even though i am a hardcore Japanese car fan (Toyota MR2 Turbo for life). I worked for Saturn for a short time, before getting my current job.

    What is it that Saturn dealerships do differently from other GM dealerships?

  5. Youthier says:

    Did this happen at Garrity Motors? Was the old saleman named Buddy and the war vet named Henry Saracen?

    Or did the blog just rip off a storyline from Friday Night Lights?

  6. bonzombiekitty says:

    Personally, I’d have walked out as soon as the salesman tried that sort of pitch on me. I hate it when people try to convince me to do something by tearing at my heart strings. I also think that trying to use a person’s service record as means of selling something is offensive to people in the military. Plus, the whole idea that the person faught in the Gulf War for a given US citizen’s freedom is fundamentally flawed, as the war was fought to free Kuwait, and keep the Iraq from going into Saudi Arabia, not to protect my freedom to buy a car.

  7. thoughtfix says:

    His name is Bloodraven? SERIOUSLY? I can see it now:

    [bloodraven]: I would like to sell you a car.
    [customer]: I would like to buy a car.
    [bloodraven]: Okay, are you ready?
    [customer]: Ready as I’ll ever be, big boy!
    [bloodraven]: Okay… I start showing you a 1992 Red Mustang
    [customer]: Ooooh. Looks nice! I gently run my hands over the leather seats.
    [bloodraven]: I put on my robe and wizard hat.
    [customer]: WHAT?

  8. B says:

    @boandmichele: What Saturn does (and I beleive Scion is doing the same thing, if you want to stay in the Toyota family, although they don’t have anything as nice as the MR2) is they offer no-haggle pricing. Everybody pays the same for the car, the dealership makes a 10% commission, which is split equally among the sales-staff.

  9. The Bigger Unit says:

    Man…someone actually beat me to it this particular post, but I’ll second it: the new font is bruuuutal. And I’m in my 20’s! Please go back to the old font at least. The new layout sucks as well, but at this point: old font and size good. Damn Gawker wanting more clicks.

  10. Skyoodpov says:

    “For every $100 you lower your price, you are taking $5 out of his pocket.”

    “Wow, thats heartbreaking. Do you know that for every $100 you DONT lower the price, its $100 out of MY pocket? Why dont you drop the price 4 grand and I will give him the $200 out of my pocket.”

    I am all for helping out vets, but not when I could just go to another salesperson and not get screwed…

  11. exkon says:

    Oh really, just an “unreasonable” customer comment?

    Seriously, who the hell walks into the a dealership, looks at $30,000 car and says “I’ll take it for $19,000!”?

    There’s unreasonable and bat-shait crazy. The guy still got a great deal, even though it wasn’t exactly what he wanted.

    Everyone has to make a living somehow.

  12. @thoughtfix: That certainly is an odd mix of homoerotic fantasy and online roleplaying. I would be loathe to confront a car dealer willing to bring forth his “magic missile” in such manner.

  13. mrmysterious says:

    I’m a Vet and what he did was was sleazy.

    Not to mention if this guy cares so much to make the world a better place why is he complaining about helping someone that once helped put food on his plate.

    If I went to the place I bought my last vehicle at and the former salesman had any resentment about helping me I’d give him and the dealership a big FU and take my business elsewhere.

  14. enm4r says:

    @B: Yeah, Scion called it “Pure Pricing” in that, what you see online, the commercials, and are quoted will ALWAYS be the same, nationwide. It made buying my Scion a breeze, and we could actually focus on the car instead of worrying about talking the salesman down. It was my first new car buying experience a couple years ago when it happened, and I would never do it any other way.

  15. MercuryPDX says:

    “I told him that for every one hundred dollars the takes off the price of that vehicle, he takes five bucks out of our friend’s (the new salesperson) pocket. I told him calmly, “You know, that man is a Gulf war vet……”

    Stop stop stop…. [walks away to dealership across the street]

    “But hey, at least for the extra money he paid, the customer drove out of the dealership feeling like a really great person. Too bad that’s not going to fund your car payments.”

    QFT! I swear… car salesmen have a sixth sense and they can SEE people like this coming.

  16. exkon says:


    You are correct in that statement. I worked at a Toyota dealership for 4 years (as a lot porter).

    The no-haggle pricing is quite awesome because EVERY Scion dealership has the same price. Just go in, tell them what model and accessories you want.

    Everything is priced pretty effectively.

    The dealership makes a small commission on the car, and the salesperson gets $50-$75 for each Scion they sell (not exactly sure, but its a set amount). They’ll make more on accessories added onto the car, but not very much since they’re priced low already.

  17. @exkon: I think the result comes from people who think it’s bat-shit crazy that the dealership will tack on 11,000$ onto the price of a 19,000$ car.

    I think you’re right when you’re saying everyone has to make a living somehow, so why put the salesmen in such a bad position from the starting gate? The only people who win are the dealerships.

  18. castlecraver says:

    If Mr Car Salesman is losing too much money on a car deal, he should find a new job. Or just say no. Or better yet, come back with a more reasonable counter-offer without the tearjerking BS. The customer works hard for his money too, and would like to spend as little of it as possible on his new truck, thankyouverymuch.

  19. madktdisease says:

    @enm4r: bought two scions. love ’em. i wasn’t worn down from the haggling, so i could easily snark them on the incredible ripoff “extended warranties” and whatever else they try to sell you.

  20. Trai_Dep says:

    The irony is rich when mentioning a vet that fought to keep Cheny and Oil Execs rolling in obscene profits propping up dictators that fund Hating Of America, then selling him a low-mileage truck.

    Hey, patriot – wanna help the US from getting involved in Middle East quagmires? Try buying something that doesn’t get 12 miles to the gallon.

    Oh yeah, thanks for destroying the planet to support your lame-assed faux-rebel image as well.


  21. superbmtsub says:

    lol @ THOUGHTFIX.

    Classic BloodNinja FTW!

  22. boandmichele says:

    @The Nature Boy: thats very cool! Yeah i think everyone should do that. no-haggle pricing is the way to go.

  23. Sucko-T says:

    Scion’s pricing system is great, but watch out for dealers charging outrageous “document fees”. Whatever you do don’t buy a used Scion, I’ve seen several dealers asking more than what they cost new!!


  24. superbmtsub says:


  25. superbmtsub says:

    this isnt working. goddamn this commenting. not working.

  26. superbmtsub says:

    never mind. the commenting is working.

  27. I wouldn’t have responded to the whole “he’s a soldier” deal but from the post in the blog it sounds like the customer was being rude and/or unreasonable which would explain the “you need to apologize” statement.

  28. banned says:

    I don’t know about Saturn but No-Haggle pricing has been tried here in Canada, and in the end, the customer ends up paying more compared to the exact same dealers that were not bound by that policy. I think it was Toyota, though I could be wrong on that.

  29. 160medic says:

    4 years as a lot boy? What do you do now, clean toilets or pick up trash on the side of the freeway?Almost everyone here has a negative impression on the car business but i am pretty sure most of you have purchased a car at a dealership. If it was that bad why did you buy the car. I have been in the car business for 12 years now and have never ripped anyone off. I have never sold anyone anything that they did not want to buy.I have done everything from detailer to management and have worked at dealerships that do not “Rip people off” Here is a bit of FREE advice to consumers DO YOUR RESEARCH it is not the dealers fault that you went there looking like a bobblehead saying yes to everything.Then those same people want to blame car dealers for thier own stupidity.

  30. jeffj-nj says:

    True story…

    Me: “I’d like to buy this car [priced at $11,000] for $9,000.”
    Dealer: “That’s ridiculous. That’s too low. How will I feed my children?”
    Me: “You could give them Mac ‘n Cheese. Kids love Mac ‘n Cheese, and it’s cheap.”
    Dealer, laughing: “Deal.”

    Swear to God. True story. That was awesome. =)

  31. Terminixsux says:

    This wouldn’t happen if the auto industry didn’t create the situation that as a customer, you feel like you need to fight for the best deal right up until you sign and drive away. A better response to the salesman would have been to tell him that you were also a vet and had served your country, and every dollar over the price I want to pay is a dollar out of my pocket and the mouths of my children. Turn about is fair play. And, if car salesmen are not the sleazeballs everyone else thinks them to be, why do they have this reputation? As has been ststaed, the best bet is to understand what you want and how much you will pay before you ever step foot in the dealership. Once you know the details, like invoice price and dealer incentives, you can go into the dealership armed appropriately. If they aren’t willing to work with you, simply walk out. It’s not as if there aren’t more dealerships everywhere, and if you are patient, you will find the one who is willing to do your deal. Unfortunately, we become like kids in a candy store, and when the slaes droid sees that, he begins to salivate, and he knows he can get more.

  32. mopar_man says:

    4 years as a lot boy? What do you do now, clean toilets or pick up trash on the side of the freeway?

    What the hell does that have to do with anything?

  33. Sucko-T says:

    @160 medic.
    1. I was a lot attendant for five years while I went to college, and yes I graduated. Some of us like getting a steady paycheck, weekends off and not working “bell to bell”.

    2. You sound just like every car salesman trying to justify the time honored way of selling cars. Doing research doesn’t change the fact that the dealer is going to balk at your first offer (no matter how fair it is) and say “it can’t be done” only to sell you the car for that price after six hours of pointless negotiation. If dealers want a better reputation maybe they should ask a fair price to begin with. The dealer I worked for put additional markup stickers on every new car on the lot, just to start the negotiation at a higher price.

    I hope one day car salesmen end up like travel agents.

  34. randalotto says:

    @skyoopdov: Exactly what I was thinking. As soon as I read his 100/5 dilemma, I immediately thought, “Cool. I’ll give you $6 for every hundred you LOWER it for me.”

    Let’s see if we can’t get that $30,000 car for $1800…

  35. 160medic says:

    I graduated as well ,so i am very proud of you. I worked as a detailer while I finished up my degree. Then I learned that there was a lot more $$ to be made in the car business. I have always had a STEADY paycheck because I took the time to learn the business.In fact my pay has STEADILY gone up every year since I started.And for your information , car dealerships do not set the price, the manufacturers do I am pretty sure you remember cutting the window stickers off the cars right?

  36. Slytherin says:

    I would have said, “I don’t care if he was in Vietnam or the Gulf War and lost his legs and sense of taste, I am going to take care of MY and nobody else’s interests.”

    It’s a dog eat dog world out there, and you gotta take care of #1.

  37. exkon says:


    Seriously you need to stop trolling. I worked there 4 years as a lot porter during school. I now work as QA Engineer making very nice money.

    I purchased my Scion at the dealership I worked at because I trusted certain salepeople there.

    I NEVER ragged on any of the sales staff in my comment, I was talking about how some of the customers are incredibly unreasonable when it comes to buying a car.

    I KNOW exactly how hard it can be to be salesman. I KNOW how it feels to stay 2-3 hours AFTER the dealership closed to get that last car to meet the bonus requirements. I was USUALLY there to deliver the car that night!!

    I’ve seen my share of dirty and clean salespeople. So please don’t go off on me because I was a “lot porter”. Seriously the attitudes of some salespeople NEVER change.

  38. itmustbeken says:

    I’d rather hang out with prostitutes and drug dealers than this Bloodraven douche.
    At least they have some dignity.

  39. Sucko-T says:

    I do remember pulling out window stickers, but I also remember the dealer markup stickers right next to them with a price that was MORE than MSRP. Maybe dealers should start by actually adhering to the manufacturers suggested price. Not to mention the fact that many models have incentives and rebates, meaning the factory changed its set price, but do dealers put this info in the window?

  40. 160medic says:

    WTF is “trolling” and I am proud of you to son….so many graduates here I am getting tired from all this back patting…..Bottom line >>>>>If you don’t like the way dealers do business don’t buy cars..Stop complaining AFTER you make the deal start saying something beforehand.And don’t be such a mooch. You cannot go to a grocery store and mooch.Try that at a department stor,or WalMart.If you can’t afford it then don’t look at it . Buy a less expensive unit.

  41. kenposan says:

    The guy’s initial request was unreasonable but the saleman’s pitch was, in my mind, was sleazy.

    When I bought my last car, we were haggling in the office. The guy said he wasn’t sure he could do it and needed authorization from his boss. He picked up the phone and called someone. He did this twice. To this day, I wonder if anyone was on the other end or if it was all crap.

    My wife and I just sat there rolling our eyes.

  42. jjj7088 says:

    PALEEEZZZEE … I will sell EVERY $30,000 new ram truck on my property for 19,900, plus taxes and GOVERNMENT fees. I ll do it with a smile on my face, as thats the price they are advertised on my web site and in out local paper … this guy is no “super” salesman …

  43. TechnoDestructo says:


    Sounds more like someone who plays WH40K: Dawn of War. So it’s more like “let me go get my power armer and heavy bolter.”

  44. IppoJ says:

    I have recently found that there is a huge difference in salesmen as you move up the food chain. Honda, Chevy, Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi salesmen tend to be greasy thieves Honda being the worst and Toyota being the most arrogant.
    Conversely, the Saab, Infiniti and Audi salesmen that I’ve recently spoke with were fantastically professional.

  45. Sucko-T says:

    From:EXKON, “If you don’t like the way dealers do business don’t buy cars..”

    Then by your logic,if you don’t like cell phone companies not letting you out of your contract you shouldn’t get a cellphone, if you don’t like airlines trapping you on a plane for seven hours, you shouldn’t fly? If this is your answer for everything, what are you doing here?

  46. 160medic says:

    No, not my logic ….Yours.If you don’t like cell phone companies not letting you out of contracts,then don’t sign a contract or hone your negotiation skills and get out of the contract. I never get put on a contract for cel phones. In fact , I just purchased 3 with new service.They screwed up, I found a way out and thay ended up refunding all of my $$ plus $200 credit and NO commitment.If you get trapped on a plane for seven hours, shit happens, get over it.Try being stuck on a military transport for six hours only to take off and return for maintenance that took three more hours. WAAAAA WAAAA WAAAA

  47. shiznannigan says:

    @ TRAI_DEP

    Cheney and Oil execs? You might want to re-read the article, you seem to be thinking of the wrong war.

    Oh, and stop whining about other peoples’ choice of vehicle. Believe it or not, some people regularily haul things that won’t fit in a Prius. And even if they don’t, it’s what they want to drive. And unless you walk everywhere, live in a recycled cardboard box, and grow all your own food, you have no room to talk.

    Thanks for destroying the planet by using electricity to post here. Yay!, I can be a judgemental douchebag too!

  48. Echomatrix says:

    HA. I work in the military. I would have said. “listen here buddy. I am gonna screw you guys out of every penny to get this car. As for the vet, I’ll take his info down and make a phone call to the vets office and I will PERSONALLY find him a better job than selling cars.”

    I met a vet from Iraq once selling cars. He blew his knee out and tried to say he loved his job. I could tell it was a lie…

  49. Alan Thomas says:

    I like the suggested strategy I read on Motley Fool (or was it Consumer Reports?)–research your car thoroughly ahead of time, including dealer invoicing and kickbacks, then fax all dealers (preferably ‘fleet sales managers’) within 50 miles an RFP to fax back their minimum price for the vehicle as specified, by a certain date. Lowest price wins, although if you used a particular dealer for a test drive, you might want to give then a small allowance.

    In this model, you never even visit all the dealers–just one for a test drive.

  50. exkon says:


    I’m glad your one of the more honest salespeople, but you know for every honest salesperson, there’s 15 dishonest ones in waiting.

  51. gamble says:

    @160medic: You graduated from college and now you’ve been working at a car dealership for 12 years?


  52. ShadowFalls says:

    That poor sob story wouldn’t bother me any. So the guy was a soldier. It isn’t much different than being a police officer. They get paid just as any other person. A soldier hasn’t fought to protect the country since World War II.

  53. Here’s a dealership for you: Langan Volkswagen in Meriden and Glastonbury, CT.

    I bought my car from the Meriden dealership. Because Glastonbury is the “big lot,” everyone in Meriden has only one goal: keep the customer happy. They don’t have to sell zillions of cars or make zillions of dollars. The Glastonbury location does all that. They just have to keep us all feeling the love for their salespeople, service people, and financing people.

    My last salesguy, Matt, was studying to be an elementary teacher. I teach middle school. During the test drive, we talked about teaching, pedagogy, and his college classes. We didn’t even talk about the Jetta. When we got back to the dealership, I said, “If you can give me a new car with more gadgets that costs less than what I’m paying now, I’ll sign on the dotted line in a second.”

    He did. I did. And I’m happy to drive an hour for a service appointment.

    Now that’s service.

  54. 160medic says:

    Sorry for what?Been making over 6 figures for 8 years now.I was going to be a software engineer…Sure glad I didn’t go that route,remember what happened to those guys a while back.A lot of those engineer types ended up in the car business after the bottom fell out of the dot com industry.

  55. alteredcarbon says:

    Oh boo hoo. Saleman’s a vet and if you don’t pay the full amount then you should feel bad about it. Gimme a friggin break. I’m a vet TOO but I don’t use it as a crutch to manipulate people into getting what I want either personally or on the job.

    If I ever went to a dealership and got hit with a sob story like this one JUST to be manipulated into paying full price for something, I would just leave and spend my money elsewhere. The world may or may not appreciate that you wore a uniform, but this fact of life does not necessitate being a douche at your civilian job.

  56. EnderVR46 says:

    I just bought a car last weekend and I would have walked away from this dealership just like I did about 5 others.

    One Honda dealer was haggling on my trade, but when the salesman came back the price went up $1k from msrp. This was on a Fit, of which they had 2. They said they were the only 2 in TX even though I’d been to 3 other dealerships that day that had at least two others each. I laughed and said I’d be back in a month when they had as many of them as they have Accords. About 100 of them.

    The next dealership I was at I was looking at a used Element. The one in their had sold the week before, but was still on They had another of the same year with slightly more miles, less options, and in somewhat worse condition for $2k more. When I offered the price of the old one, they laughed at me and asked where I got that price. I pointed at the one that had sold last week (waiting to be picked up by it’s new owner), they tried to argue with me about it’s condition. Fighting me about everything. Trying to show me what KBB said about the retail price (who goes by KBB? not the dealers, I can’t beleive they still try that one). I walked out of there too.

    I’d forgotten how shitty the car buying experience can be. I wound up buying one from a small dealership for 85% of retail that was in better condition than anything the large places could come up with.

  57. FromThisSoil says:


    While I thank the guy for his service – when I’m buying a car, I’m in the business of saving myself money.

    He’s the one who decided to take a job selling cars. If he needs the extra commission I guess he better start selling more.

    If someone gave me that sob story at the dealership, I would have turned around and walked right out.

    What a fucking joke.

  58. RebekahSue says:

    I will give props to Bloodraven for not undercutting the first salesman, vet or not.

  59. triple says:

    A gulf war vet, you say! Thanks for.. waiting in the desert while the iraqis surrendered to you. Really.

  60. nachas101 says:

    Dear lord, consumerist. Really.
    So far away from doing good on this one it hurts.
    NEWSFLASH – salepeople have a job to do. That job? Sell product for a profit. Good ones make the customer feel good about making the purchase and convince them that it is a good deal.
    It isn’t evil. It isn’t wrong. And it happens every day and all the time.
    He used a sales technique called overcoming an objection. It works all the time. I use it dozens of times a day. Here’s how it works:
    Customer: I want to buy this product.
    Sales: Awesome. It is in stock for $49.99.
    Customer: I saw it elsewhere for $45.99.
    Sales: Great! Do they have it in stock? Is it a reputable company? What happens if something goes wrong? Do you know that sales guy? If you call them, will you get the same guy or some unrelated guy? What is their lead time?
    Customer: They don’t have it in stock. I’ve never heard of that company. If something goes wrong, they’ll likely refer me to the manufacturer or allow me to return it for a restocking fee. I don’t know the sales guy there. They have a general number and I don’t think they have a sales force as much as they have people that answer phones. Their lead time is 2 weeks.
    Sales: Great. I am your sales rep. Here is my direct line. If anything goes wrong, I can help you fix it. When you call my direct line, you get me every time and I want to make sure you are happy. 2 weeks? A restocking fee? Well, I guess the 4 bucks might not really be worth it.
    The objection, in this case, was the customer wanted to buy something for less than the dealership wanted to sell it for. The salesman gave compelling reasons why that wasn’t going to work and sent the customer home feeling good about it.
    So what’s the problem?
    And Saturn’s ‘no haggle’ pricing is the very reason I didn’t buy a saturn last time. It may seem convenient to dunder heads, but all it means is that they are going to charge you what they want to charge you.
    I bought my last car from a great dealership, haggled them down to below invoice, and got a great car for a great price.
    It’s called doing business, and if it isn’t for you, ask a friend who is willing to help you. I helped my best friend obtain a lease for an awesome car just under a year ago. I haggled the price, I pushed for extras, and I got them. He’s happy, and I didn’t mind it at all.

  61. Trai_Dep says:

    Ignore the troll, people…

  62. ryan_h says:

    When I went into a saturn dealership a few years back to buy my first car, I went in asking for a used car. what they did, was to get me a brand new last years model, fully loaded (more than what I was looking for) for lower price than the used car I initally came for.

    saturn FTW

  63. nachas101 says:

    Any dealer can and does do this.
    Not just saturn.
    It’s how i got my Lexus LS400 after they put out the LS430 on the cheap.
    Standard. Business. Deal.
    My brother got a Mustang the year after they put out the new style for thousands less than a new one would have cost.
    It didn’t happen because of Saturn – it happened because the dealer was smart and was looking to dump older cars.
    I negotiated a deal for a Honda CRV for a friend ($219 a month for 3 years with 12k miles a year) because Honda had just released this years updated model.

  64. kruz01 says:

    Profit is not a dirty word.