GMAC And Car Dealership Scam Old Lady For Nearly $8,000

A volunteer in Chicago claims that her client, a 65-year-old woman with dementia, was given a GMAC auto loan for a new 2007 Pontiac, even though she only makes $900 a month and has no driver’s license. Now the car has been repossessed and the car lot is saying she owes them nearly $8,000.

Here’s Kimberly’s full letter:

I am a volunteer for Catholic Charities and my new client Sandra recently went into Grossinger Auto in Chicago, IL to buy a car. She was approved for a brand new 2007 Pontiac with all the options available by GMAC. She makes $900 a month in social security, has had several strokes so she does not have a valid license, and is in credit card debt up to her eyeballs. She is a 65 year old women who also suffers from Dementia.
GMAC approved her loan even with her bad credit rating! I believe the scam is working. Sandra lives in public housing and there is NO way that she has the credit to get a new car. Yet, GMAC gave her the money to do so.
One month after she failed to make her payment they repossessed the car. Now they say she owes $7,995.80 for the difference of the car and what they got for the car at auction. I have tried repeatedly to get a hold of someone who could explain to me their loan process but was hung up on. They have not responded to my complaints to the Better Business Bureau. I also went to Grossinger Auto and asked how they could sell this woman a car and they also slammed the door in my face. What a creative way to scam!!

Well, “creative” is a pretty polite way of putting it, Kimberly. Forget the BBB—our readers have pointed out time and again that they rarely do any good in these matters. We can’t give legal advice, obviously, but if your charity organization has some sort of legal counsel then you should go talk to that person. We can’t imagine the loan can be considered valid if what you’ve listed is accurate.
You should also contact the Illinois Attorney General’s office. They have a special section on their website dedicated to protecting senior citizens. Call their toll free hotline at 1-800-243-5377 or 1-800-964-3013 (TTY).
Update 3:00pm
Kimberly emailed us an hour ago: “Thanks for the tip. I just got off the phone with their office and they are taking the case!”
(Photo: Getty)


Edit Your Comment

  1. This may be a stupid question, but I’m unclear: did she go into the dealership planning on buying a car, or was her trip to the dealership a result of her dementia?

  2. snoop-blog says:

    @loquaciousmusic: i know. there’s definately more to this story, but the dealership is still a piece of sh*t.

  3. r081984 says:

    Regardless if she wanted a car or not, the dealership has a responsibility to not set people up for failure.

    I hope the salesman was fired over this.

    I think its time for this woman to claim bankruptcy. Social security payments are excempt from creditors. If the woman has nothing and has a lot of unsecured debt then she really needs to file for bankruptcy to get ride of all of it.

    The OP needs to contact the various chicago TV news networks. If one of them covers this story then the ball can get rolling into what fraud took place to get this woman a car.

  4. stageright says:

    I wouldn’t want to be the one that has to answer the phone at Grossinger Auto [] ((847) 929-4496) now that this story is on The Conglomerist!

  5. bsalamon says:

    definitely not a valid contract. Speak to a lawyer, I am sure someone would pick it up as Pro-Bono work. Either that, or call up your local news station, they are usually good with that stuff

  6. MrEvil says:

    I’m assuming that Sandra has had a steward appointed by a court no doubt. In that case the contract was invalid. If you’re declared incompetent by a court you can’t enter into any contract without someone with power of attorney also signing off on it.

  7. ViperBorg says:

    @loquaciousmusic: I’m willing to bet dementia. My grandmother has it, and it causes her to do things she normally knows are wrong or things she normally wouldn’t do. There’s no way that contract is valid.

  8. NoWin says:

    @snoop-blog: There has to be more.

    If she bought it new in ’07, it sounds like she made “some payments”, so there may be the case where the contract was made in some form of a legitimate fashion.

    If she has demitia, is there a Power of Attorney? That is the person that needs to contact the companies in question. If no POA, getting any info forthcoming will be a violation of Privacy Laws, and it may take court-orders to get the info at that point.

  9. AaronZ says:

    For all of the petting complaining the Consumerist does, THIS is where the site really shines. Giving concise and helpful information to someone in real need, while at the same time informing the masses of how to look out for and handle this in a similar situation.

    As for the case at hand, I can’t see how they could sell a car to someone without a valid license. By law, you can’t buy a car, get it registered and drive it off the lot without valid insurance (which you can’t get without a license.)

  10. econobiker says:

    She was probably attracted to the dealership by the happy flags and colorfull balloons attached to the cars…So pretty, so pretty!!!

    If she has medical records of dementia surely a lawyer could proove she isn’t responsible for the contract. I also love the part about no license- then who insured the car upon GMAC giving the loan? Did she even drive the car off the lot before it was repossessed? Did she even drive the car at all? If she was allowed to drive the car who allowed her?- maybe you can to file a police report against the dealership for failing to verify license/insurance along with the scam.

    Get a detective involved with this as it seems to be a blatant scam against an eldery person- no different from a Nigerian 419 scam or a bait and switch on the street.

  11. savvy9999 says:

    What a bunch of scumbags.
    Here’s the owner of the dealership: Caroline Grossinger

    She usually keeps a pair of cackling crows hanging in those ear hoops.

  12. K-Bo says:

    @NoWin: Doesn’t say bought new in 2007, but bought a new 2007. Not that many people would buy an 07 new now, but they probably saw her as a chance to get rid of one that never sold and is now not the latest and greatest. Also, even if she bought in December 07, never made a payment, going through the process of repossession, sale at auction, and dealership attempting to get the $8000 could easily take this long.

  13. FLConsumer says:

    Call up a local TV station / newspaper on this one. Most car dealerships don’t like to see their faces on the 6pm news, despite plastering the channel for the remaining 23 hrs/day.

  14. Anonymous says:

    @savvy9999: I’d hit it….with a tire iron.

  15. winstonthorne says:

    As an ex-car salesman, WTF!? How the hell did they do the DMV paperwork with no valid license??? The dealer is definitely at fault here; I bet the F&I manager “bundled” this loan with a bunch of good loans and forced GMAC to take it to get the rest (that’s how we used to get people with terrible credit approved for too much car for too long).

  16. ptr2void says:

    Sounds somewhat familiar.

    My poor grandmother, getting about $1100/month from SS, was scammed into buying a car by (and for) my scumbag con artist mother with collusion with a Hyundai dealership. They had her income as something like $3700 per month, with the total note ending up at ~$42000. Dear old mother apparently forged the grandmother’s signature on all the docs but one, which my grandmother was convinced was just to attest to her daughter’s signature. The cops can’t or won’t do anything because the sales manager of the dealership backs the salesman’s account. Now the car’s been repossessed and they’re after my grandmother for the balance of the note. Thankfully, she’s got nothing since we’ve had her put the house in my uncle’s name and given him power of attorney; we’ve just got to convince her not to pay the collectors that are calling and writing.

    WTF is wrong with people?

  17. MissPeacock says:

    This story makes me want to vomit. My grandfather has Alzheimer’s, and the thought of some unscrupulous company taking advantage of that is just sick, sick, sick. I wish the letter writer the best of luck in publicizing this story as much as possible.

  18. econobiker says:

    Also – I’d bet there is some pretty hinky paperwork that went along with that loan. Probably pretty false, actually…

  19. mizj says:

    I live in Chicago, and I’ve heard a LOT of bad things about
    Grossinger. I stay the hell away from there, and advise others to do
    the same.

  20. JeepDude says:

    I work for an auto dealership as the IT Director, and I am not here to defend nor condem what the dealership in question did. I am sure there is more to the story than what is posted here, but the bottom line is, ANYONE can get financed for a vehicle, but if your credit sucks, you won’t like the terms. She probably was offered a very high interest rate because of her poor credit, and if she is elderly, especially with demensia and recovering from strokes, she probably didn’t read and/or understand the paperwork. You sign a ton of documents and those who work for successful dealerships are experts at getting you through signing them quickly and effectively. If she was that disabled, how did she get to the dealership? Why wasn’t someone watching her? Who manages her finances if she isn’t able to make those decisions herself? Someone has to be responsible for her somewhere. At our dealership, we see people from all walks of life, including elderly folks who are in their right mind and make solid purchasing decisions. How was the dealership to know of her health conditions? No one wears a sign that says, “Hey, I have dementia, watch out for my best interests, please”. My wife works with the elderly and there are some who can and some who can’t manage after strokes. The majority of those who cannot cope are in assisted living or live with family who can take care of them. The elderly woman in question sounds like the small minority who have no one to turn to. One thing the dealership did do wrongly is not work with the elderly woman’s volunteer helper. We are a family run dealership with strong principals and a commitment to people, both employees and customers. I have heard and seen many ridiculous requests, but we try to satisfy each and every complaint. Ignoring them does absolutley no good. I hope that they get things resolved, because there are so many bad stories about car dealerships, and so few positive stories from people who find good service from car dealerships like ours.

  21. ChuckECheese says:

    @loquaciousmusic: Having worked professionally with people with dementia, well, they do strange things. Like they get ideas about wanting to do something, and they obsess over it (called perseveration). One of the things that bums out seniors the most is not being able to drive. Obsessions about driving are common among demented seniors. If they have access to a car, you almost always have to lock it and hide the keys to keep them from driving off. So it’s not out of the question that this woman managed to show up at a dealership to buy a car. And the salesman scammed her, knowing it was an easy sale.

    Many of you will ask various versions of “Why didn’t she…?” and “Why didn’t they…?” Here are your answers: 1. She’s demented and crazy. She’s not normal, and doesn’t behave normally. 2. She doesn’t have 24/7 monitoring if she’s living in public housing, meaning she can get away and do crazy stuff. 3. There’s a gray area between the legalities of having a POA and the fact that many agencies will permit people in the helping professions to get involved if there is a clear need. 4. Many people who would benefit from some sort of guardianship don’t have it–it is expensive and difficult to obtain, time-consuming for the guardians, and frequently the client refuses it. Keep in mind that guardianship and fiduciary POAs are different from a simple living will. 5. Social services in this country are severely underfunded, and there aren’t enough people, services or resources to go around. Usually nothing is done until there is some sort of life-or-death crisis, e.g., the woman in the example above sets her public housing unit on fire. At that point she will likely be placed in a nursing home.

    The letter does not say she bought a car in 2007; it says she bought a 2007 model. There are record numbers of unsold cars on lots these days, and one of my local dealerships has advertised new 2007s for sale in the past couple months.

    It appears that as businesses get more desperate, some of them will resort to shockingly dirty means to make a sale. We will all have to be more careful. Contacting the AG is the best thing to do in this situation. The worker could contact the dealership one more time by letter, explaining the circumstances, telling them she has no choice but to go to the AG unless they drop the matter quickly.

  22. Nytmare says:

    I have an elderly relative who doesn’t drive, doesn’t have a license, but one day she decided she wanted to buy a new car. Just because? Thankfully she was talked out of it, but we worry about future occurrences.

  23. miboy28 says:

    There has to be something we don’t know about this case. You need to provide proof on insurance when buying a car and a valid license. Most banks are pretty stict about documentation. Also, based on the housing market, GMAC will not be loaning out money to people that weren’t eligible considering the mortgage side is taking heavy loses. People will pay house before the car usually. The reason GMAC is not talking to her is probably because of third party diclosure laws. Anyone can call up saying their relative was scammed and the contract should be void.

  24. seafury says:

    Ironically, I learned from a Real Estate lawyer (class professor in college) that had the same problem: an elderly woman with dementia bought a car on her own. To have a valid contract the parties must be willing, able, and competent. She was neither able nor competent. He went to the dealership, told ’em the reality and they dropped the demand for payment.

    Get a lawyer for a few hundred bucks, and this’ll go away.

    Too bad we live in a legal system that doesn’t protect the innocent and reasonably knowledgeable. We have to get lawyers to do it for us.

  25. ChuckECheese says:

    @nytmare: Exactly. Keep an eye on her.

  26. ViperBorg says:

    Having a license should be a prerequisite to buying a car. Period.
    No license, no car.

  27. Howie411 says:

    GM is on my bad side currently, they are known for screwing people over. I purchased a 08 Pontiac in Feb. 3 days later they were offering a extra 1k off. I called/emailed the dealership they didn’t care to talk. (they already had my money). Sent a 2 page letter to GM cooperate. No response, sent a follow up letter, finally a call from GM saying to bad we offer promotions all the time. Wait till I fill out the JD power and associates survey.

  28. Pro-Pain says:

    This is one case where I would condone violence against people/property. This is scumbag low. EECB everyone @ General Motors. Take that dealer license away. Shut that CUNT down!

  29. Who wants to be we see more and more of this during a further downturn in the economy. Dealerships will become more desperate to make a sale, why not screw some old person over for the value while being able to repo it and sell it again?

  30. backbroken says:

    To be fair to the dealer, if they turned away everyone who appeared to have dementia, they’d never sell a car. They ARE a Pontiac dealer after all.

  31. I already told my son that when the day comes, he shouldn’t hesitate for a minute to take control of our finances. If you live long enough, it will happen to you, and that’s when the scam artists come out. Bastards.

  32. mackattack says:

    @AaronZ: I wish the consumerist did more petting and less complaining ;)

  33. polyeaster says:

    Don’t dealerships make you show a DL before you can even test drive? That right there is a problem…

  34. Eric1285 says:

    This would be easier to prevent if everyone who had dementia or similar diseases would wear some sort of marker. Sometimes you can’t tell, and nobody wants to waste an hour making a sale that won’t count.

  35. polyeaster says:

    PS…does that owner look a little f***** up? Seriously looks like she took a hit of something a few moments before the shutter went click…

  36. philipbarrett2003 says:

    @backbroken – thanks, coffee came out of my nose!

  37. econobiker says:

    Scummy sales people will even go to the jail to try and get financing for a car they sold to a disabled man:

    Scummy sales people sell a disabled man a truck for $30k cash and then rip off his life savings:

    Scummy dealer sells eldery man 7 cars in 1 year (old but pertainent):

  38. Parting says:

    @Eric1285: Yeah, and every guy like you should have a tattoo ”dumbass” on the face, that way we’ll recognize you easily.

    What kind of marker, huh? And if a person is demented or has Alzheimer, don’t you think they can take off some weird marker?

    And the sale should NEVER went through, since the customer does NOT have a valid driver license! It’s against the law!

    So why punish the sick person for someone else’s lack of conscience?

    If I were the sales rep, as soon as I’d see that the person acts weird and does not have a driver license, I would gently refer her to the receptionist. At least there is some candy on the table and glossy flyers. And I’ll ask to call the family, if it’s really a persistant case.

  39. Sounds like she got the Hank Hill special.

  40. Simpoleca says:

    neat… they have a contact us section…

  41. Parting says:

    @backbroken: As long as the buyer has a valid driver’s license and a proof of income, he is a potential buyer.

    In this case there is neither.

  42. xphilter says:

    I’m not sure how I feel about this given so little detail. I mean how the customer is being treated afterwards is sucky but I had a similar experience at my old job at a cell phone shop. A guy about 20 came in wanted a cell phone so we set him up, he paid cash, but his credit was OK. He was a little weird, but so was everyone at that mall. The next day his family comes in yelling at us how we took advantage of his mental disability. The doud wanted a phone, that’s all I knew. If I said no based on my judgment of his mental condition (Because I’m a licensed Psychiatrist) the family could have yelled at me for that. If you don’t want someone who has a mental disability from doing thing like this then its your responsibility, not the proprietors.

  43. Darkwish says:

    @ptr2void: Sounds kind of like what my uncle and aunt did to my grandmother, except they just took the money right out of her accounts.

  44. ptr2void says:

    @Darkwish: Yep. She/they did that too via a stolen and then forged check which could not be covered. That was the first indication of their despicable behavior. Thankfully she has been a long time customer of the bank and they were understanding, instead going after my mother and her wife. I guess family members are the predominant identity thieves. What a disgrace.

  45. Darkwish says:

    @ptr2void: We didn’t find out about it until my mother checked the bank accounts when my grandmother complained she didn’t have any money (she was in an assisted living home at the time). We turned my uncle and aunt over to the police and they reached a “settlement” to repay about $17k out of the $350k they stole, but so far they’ve only repaid about $700 over the past 2 years, so we’re going to be turning them in again to try to get jail time. (We’ll never see the money again and we know it, but they should still be punished.)

  46. NotATool says:

    Why was there a sale with no DL? Easy. The scumbag salesman identified an easy mark (demented senior) and pushed the sale through.

    Maybe Grossingers is running a prison-to-work transition program with their sales force?

  47. NotATool says:

    @savvy9999: Amusing writeup of her. Apparently she slept through the Business Ethics course at the U of Chicago MBA??

  48. KyleOrton says:

    @backbroken: I think you’re confusing dementia with Burt Reynolds mustaches, CB radios and mullets.

  49. backbroken says:

    @philipbarrett2003: No worries. It’s just as good the second time around, assuming you caught it in your cup.

  50. ptr2void says:

    @Darkwish: That sucks. I hope they get what they deserve. Grrr.

  51. backbroken says:

    @ptr2void: Can you let us know when and where your next family reunion will be? I’d like to attend.

  52. ptr2void says:

    @Darkwish: That really sucks. I sincerely hope they get what they deserve. Grrr…

  53. ptr2void says:

    @backbroken: Heh…my family’s too small for a reunion…we could have it in a Renault LeCar.

  54. Designer1 says:

    All good advice from the Consumerist. The OP should follow through because this deal smells. But I wouldn’t worry about the little old lady. Based on the financial situation outlined she’s judgement-proof. My guess is the lady will never be sued because GMAC won’t want this case to be seen by a judge and SSI can’t be garnisheed, AFAIK. So I wouldn’t worry about the woman’s debts – they can’t and won’t be repaid.

  55. windycity says:

    OP – if your organization doesn’t have an attorney on staff, try the Chicago Legal Clinic [] , the Center for Disability and Elder Law at 312.908.4463, Chicago Volunteer Legal Services at 312.332.1264, or the Legal Clinic at Northwestern [] .

  56. am84 says:

    How sick. Selling to an old lady who doesn’t even have a license?! There is a special spot in hell reserved for people who take advantage of the elderly.

  57. juniper says:

    I know Catholic Charities to be a good group of people offering important and unduplicated services to Chicago. But I urge you to consider what’s best for your client before jumping into possible civil or legal proceedings. If you think she’s ok where she’s living despite her dementia, help her work it out with debt collectors but don’t get the police involved because she could lose her home.

    Did she ever drive the car? Are you sure? If she did (or you think she did even if she didn’t tell you), I strongly urge you to look up unsolved traffic crimes in her area like hit and runs or property damage. If there is anything linking her to them, even tenuously, filing criminal charges against Grossinger will eventually uncover this and endanger her standing legally. If she lives in Public Housing she will be evicted. Do your homework before the police do.

    Be very careful about exposing this! Your client could end up getting out of her car debt but homeless.

  58. FLJOE says:

    The license issue could happen here in FL. I am 72, still of sound mind (my wife may have a different opinion). I just renewed my license and it is good until 2014. If the granny had a license under these conditions, she could have had a license laying around for years that was still legally valid that no one knew about. I don’t know the length of term Illinois will issue licenses but in a state like FL, it would be wise if they reduced the time it is valid and require driving tests for anyone over ________ (fill in the blank)

  59. whydidnt says:

    If she has no assets and her only source of income is SSN, I’d simply tell the dealership/GMAC to pound sand. Per the facts she has lousy credit already, so another mark there isn’t the end of the road. Since she live in public housing, I assume she doesn’t have other assets. She’s up to her eyeballs in CC debt so it’s doubtful she has a big savings account somewhere.

    Yes, it sucks that she had to deal with this, but the reality is at this point, there isn’t any more the dealership or GMAC can do to the lady. They can’t garnish her wages or attach assets since she doesn’t have any. Thankfully, we don’t have debtors prison’s they could threaten her with. Under the Fair Debt Collections Act she can ask them to quit harrasing her, if they are doing that.

    The cool thing is that the dealership actually has probably LOST money in the deal. They probably sold the car for much less after the repo than they could have in just making a legitimate sale in the first place. Since they have no legal way of collecting that additional “loss” from the original buyer it’s their loss. Every now and then Karma does pay a visit I guess.

    If I was the original poster, I’d tell the dealership “Good Luck collecting on this, jerks!” and move on the next of I’m sure a long line of other cases to deal with.

  60. arthurat says:

    Now we know why there is a credit crisis.

  61. Chris Walters says:

    This was sent to my email account by a reader—thought I’d add it to the comments for future reference:

    – – – –
    Hi there. I’m an avid reader of The Consumerst, and this particular article caught my eye, as my employer may be able to help Sandra. We provide free legal assistance to low-income residents of Cook County. Feel free to pass on our phone number (312-341-1070) and our intake specialists will take it from there. Our website’s at [] if you would like to learn more about us.

    – – – –

  62. juri squared says:

    Hooray for Lisa Madigan! (The IL Attorney General)

  63. kilrathi says:

    Hooray for the Illinois AG. I’m glad they decided to pick this up.

  64. kbarrett says:

    @ViperBorg: You don’t always need a license to drive. A farm pickup truck is a good example. A stock car is another.

    I think the OP needs to contact her relatives and a judge, hold a competency hearing, and get a guardian appointed. Have the guardian declare bankruptcy, and the guardian can post a change of address to his/her office, send the credit reporting agencies his phone number to replace the current one, and forward letters from relatives, etc., and burn the credit card offers.

    The current creditors can go pound sand.

  65. factotum says:

    @NoWin: Believe it or not, many GM cars don’t sell in the year they were produced. A new 07 could have easily been purchased in 08.

  66. shor0814 says:

    @whydidnt: I know what you are saying, but now she becomes a target for a collection agency. Convince her that she better pay something every month or she is going to jail. Great racket all around.

  67. Concerned_Citizen says:

    Although the dementia may be all that is needed to invalidate the loan, that fact that her income and credit shouldn’t have let her qualify means these people fudged the numbers. After all the fallout from bad home loans involving the same tactic, this car dealer is probably going to be in some serious legal trouble.

  68. rellog says:

    @Howie411: Me too. Screw GM. I’ll never buy another! My Grand Prix with the 3.1 engine just had the head gasket fail. Turns out it is a undeniable issue with 1996ish-2004 GM cars with the 3.1. They make the gasket out of plastic and the coolant eats it away. They have known for over a decade, but have never issued a recall. I hope their entire scum sucking, gas guzzling company crashes in flames!

  69. rellog says:

    @kilrathi: Is there a link to that?

  70. rellog says:

    @rellog: Nevermind, I didn’t see the update…

  71. FredTheCat says:

    I don’t know that I’d go around saying the BBB is of no help. A few years ago I had an ordeal with that scam artist Roni Lynn Deutch to help iron out a tax issue. In short, she accomplished nothing while jerking us around for months. I sent copies of my communications with her to both the BBB and the state attorney general. While the AG’s office was genuinely interested in the situation, I get the impression that the BBB was the one primarily responsible for getting the majority of my money back from the shark.

    Always notify the BBB…it can’t HURT!

  72. FrankReality says:

    An elderly woman with dementia is considered an “vulnerable adult” and in many jurisdictions abusing a vulnerable adult is a crime – depending on the severity of the abuse, the crime can rise to a felony. This case does potentially rise to the felony level.

    Going to the Attorney General is the right thing in this case since the situation is essentially financial fraud. But, remember they want this resolved with the least amount of muss and fuss, and the AG doesn’t represent the woman, it represents the state – the woman should have her own attorney – be it a legal aid attorney or one doing pro-bono work for Catholic Charities.

    Typically what will happen is that a staff member of the AGs office will research other state consumer agencies for similar complaints versus the dealer and GMAC. They will typically contact both sides of the dispute to gather facts. Two of the key facts are the degree of dementia and whether it was noticeable by a reasonable person.

    If this is the only occurence, the AG staff or the state consumer protection agency at the direction of the AG will negotiate a settlement between the parties, although in this case because it is so egregious, they probably will request the dealership and GMAC to eat the loss, since they shouldn’t have sold the car and shouldn’t have financed it. If the dealer and GMAC do that, it’s end of the story. In short, they try to work this out without going to court. Also expect the dealership and GMAC to point fingers at each other and haggle about how much of any settlement is their’s to accept.

    However, if the dealership and GMAC refuse, a civil suit is likely. Civil suits are easier to prosecute than criminal charges. If there is a pattern of such behaviors the AG may file a larger civil suit, but if there numbers of incidents are large, there is enough evidence to make one or more felony charges stick on one or more individuals, they may go for that instead.

    One thing that is odd here is that there is no mention of a guardian or someone with power of attorney – certainly a person with significant dementia should have one.

  73. judythbow says:

    Deplorable yes. But I’m truly confused by the repeated statements about not being able to buy a car without a valid driver’s license. I just don’t understand. Surely there are non-drivers who purchase cars for someone else to drive, whether the very rich, or just old Uncle Sam who buys the car so that his nephew can drive him where he wants/needs to go. Possibly even as a gift. Seems to me that could be legitimate. COuldn’t the ‘owner’ & the ‘operator’ be two different people?

  74. LUV2CattleCall says:

    PONTIAC = Poor Old…hmm…we’ll make it Nana in this case…Thinks It’s A Cadillac