An Arizona mom says she was flying to Billings, Montana for her birthday — but never got off the ground because the airline kicked her — and her unruly kids off the flight. They were told they could take another flight — if they paid for it. The airline says it’s their policy not to offer refunds.
Apparently, while still boarding their Allegiant Air flight, the woman’s 2-year-old started to cry. While she was trying to calm the toddler down, her 4 year old got “restless” and wouldn’t stay in his seat.
The airline removed the family from the plane and told them they could take another flight but neglected to mention at the time that this flight would cost $900 more. The airline says they will FedEx her luggage back from Montana (it was apparently behaving itself in the cargo hold,) and offered her a credit towards a future flight. She wants a refund.
Here’s the news report from 3TV in Phoenix:
Airline boots family for crying baby, no refund given [AZFamily.com] (Thanks, Kym!)
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Kids can’t be controlled?
Benadryl says otherwise.
@Sian: That stuff has the opposite effect on my kids (and many others)! It makes them bounce off the wall instead of making them drowsy.
I must side with the airline. Control your kids, people. Especially when you’re inside a plane with a bunch of other people who can’t just get up and leave if they want to get away from you. Have some consideration for others, for crying out loud.
And yes, I have two kids myself, ages 2 and 5. If I were to take them on a plane, I can guarantee you they’d be better behaved than half of the adults on the flight.
The airline was within their rights to kick them off but That ticket was paid for to get them to their destination. The airline should live up to their end of the bargin and get em wehre they need to go.
Does Allegiant fly from Austin? If not, how do we lobby them to do so?
The airlines have every right not to allow her to fly for whatever reason they want, but they don’t have a right to keep the money!
If that were the case, airlines could kick half of the passengers off every flight, keep their money, and save a hell of a lot on fuel costs.
Outrageous, and the Mom is crazy if she doesn’t take them to small claims court. She would win in a heartbeat, regardless of the ridiculous “policy” the airline is citing. Policy is not law.
I flew this airline when they started up over the summer. Let’s just say you get what you pay for. $80 round trip LA to Fargo. “Hiya, Norm. How ya doin’, Margie? How’s the fricasse?”
Well, while the rest of you all were fighting the parenting wars, I read Allegiant’s contract of carriage. It appears that the airline is supposed to refund the fare of a person denied boarding or removed from a plane in situations such as this (i.e. unruly passenger).
[www.allegiantair.com]
I totally agree with removing unruly kids from over crowded aircraft; however, they should refund her money. I understand children may “go wild” but the rest of the passengers shouldn’t have to suffer.
I don’t have any sympathy. I fly a lot on business, and constantly have to put up with parents who can’t control their kids. I have long prayed that the airlines I fly would kick of families who aren’t behaving — I’ve seen families fly for a lot less, kids running up the aisles during takeoff, crawling around seats, rooting through the galley, with parents doing nothing more than tsk tsking.
Besides, she was offered credit. It’s a non-issue, and I agree with the other comments here that say if you can’t control your kids, you have no place on an airplane.
Meh, I think those kids and the mom were more disruptive than they are admitting.
Refund issue aside, i think the airline has the right idea. We have regularly made long flights with both of our kids since they were newborns, 10 years ago.
Sometimes it took some mental and physical gymnastics to assure proper conduct, not to mention obscene amounts of candy, but we got the job done. A 4 yr old can and should be expected to show enough respect for others and self control for the duration of a flight.
Even at 2 yrs old, ours respected the family travel law of no whining, and under no circumstances should any of their appendages ever make contact with the seat in front of them. I have seen enough freakishly permissive parenting to take a wild guess at what led to the ouster of this family.
the holiday season is coming -happens every year surprisingly- so airlines should put a notice up on their sites, at the ticket confirmation page and at the ticket desk about children’s expected behavior.
a little nyquil will do wonders moms……..
I understand that children will act up and sometimes you just have to go somewhere with them. But if YOUR children act up, its on you to bear the cost, not the airline. Empty seats are expensive for an airline, they shouldn’t bear the cost of your childrens behavior.
As a somewhat seasoned airline pilot, I can point out kids clear across the airport that will misbehave on planes by taking a quick glance at the parents. Most flight attendants also have this skill. Kids cry, sure, but there is crying, there are nerves, and then there are parents who have no clue how to handle their kids or don’t even try. Or who have never learned to discipline their children. Or worst, the weekend parent that wants to be the cool parent, letting their kids get away with anything.
I have seen both sides of the coin. Parents with screaming kids, running down the aisles when the seatbelt sign is on and the flight is bumpy, while they listen to their ipod and ignore the kid. I have also had to personally escort a young boy leaving his mom for the first time, going to see his dad, scared half to death of flying. The captain of the earlier fight had kicked him off, this poor tiny boy all alone. He waited alone in the airport (with a gate agent assigned to him) as mom had already gone home and lived quite a distance. But when I got there, I gave him a hug, bought him a 5 dollar stuffed critter from the store, and sat with him until we had to close the cockpit door. He was all smiles when we landed.
Folks the power is always in the public’s hands. Boycott Allegiant Airlines and get them right where it hurts . . . in the wallet.
Why aren’t the misbehaving children ever kicked off of the planes I’m on?!
No sympathy here. It’s just one case of self-absorbed people thinking that their spawn are so special that their disturbing behavior should be tolerated by others. By response is to stay home until your children are old enough to travel with disturbing others.
Hey you, riding in coach, yeah you without kids:
The lavatory on this plane has no changing table, my kid has soiled his pants and is screaming. You are damn right I am changing the diaper right here and now in this seat that I had to pay for. Do you think I am happy listenting to you bitch while I try and get a poop filled diaper in a barf bag?
Shut the f()|< up, while I do what I have to do. Fly first class next time a$$h0le.
@dancing_bear: And people like you are the reason I fly first class. If I wanted to smell baby shit I’d procreate.
(Of course, not procreating is also a large part of the reason I can afford to fly first class.)
@cromartie:
I understand completely. If I had an option, I would have enjoyed taking it. Would you rather smell crap and have a baby scream for the entire flight, or smell lots of crap for five minutes and have the baby shut up?
It should be noted the flight attendants were zero help, I could not do the dirty work in the galley, they would not take the barf bag when I was done (puke is ok, but not baby shit?).
Short of this anecdote, my kids know how to behave on car trips, airplane rides, restaurants and in profesionals’ offices. I don’t know why it is so hard for some parents to train their kids, I think half the time the parents are failures, the other half the kids are simply not suitable for public exposure, regardless of parenting skills.
She knew she was going to fly. Why had she not prepared BOTH OF HER KIDS (a 2 year old is not 6 months old – they understand instructions) by “practicing” sitting q
And this is why I always bring earplugs for airline trips. Screaming and/or crying kids during a 5 hour trip is one way to make passengers lose all shred of sanity.
Control your kids, people! Have a little consideration for others around you. I don’t care about your excuses either, the world does not center around nor should be expected to cater to you and your spawn.
I find many parents use the very nature of kids as an excuse for why they do all kinds of crap from screaming/pouting in stores, to running around tables in restaurants, to pulling merchandise off shelves/racks in stores, eating unpaid-for food in the grocery store, etc. This is B.S. My mom woulda given me a spanking of the Ages if I pulled half the crap kids do nowadays.
I understand being a young parent is tough. What’s tougher is being a passenger on a plane once with a crying baby in front of me and an annoying child behind me who kicked the back of my seat at least every 5 minutes for an hour and a half.
A good rule of thumb is…if your kids can’t reasonably behave in the grocery store, they’re not ready for a plane.
It’s clear to me that most posters are not familiar with Allegiant Air. While there is certainly not enough info to know which party was right or wrong, Allegiant is not your average airline.
They fly between smaller airports and from small airports to select “destinations”. All their flights are non-stop. They do not overbook and offer all their services ala carte. Nothing is free, not even soft drinks. They even charge a fee to pick a seat. In exchange for all this, the airfare itself is dirt cheap.
One “extra” they offer is flight insurance (flex flight) to protect customers from missed flights, etc. That fee is something like $7 for a round trip or $21 for Mom and two kids. If Mom bought that insurance, a credit toward a future flight is all she is entitled to. If Mom gets a full refund, she’s just driving up airfares for the rest of us taking advantage of this tight margin business model.
I know about Allegiant because they offer twice weekly flights (Friday and Monday) between the puddle-jumper airport near me and Orlando FL. I’m preparing to take my first flight with them in a couple of weeks: $94 round trip including taxes and airport fees.
I am never in favor of anyone with absolute power. It was their decision to kick her off the plane and their decision to keep her money for a flight she didn’t get.
I get tired of hearing it’s policy or it’s not policy as an excuse, it’s like saying “because we just don’t want to”, and it’s thievery. Doesn’t the law apply here? If I was to take somebody’s money and give them nothing in return I would be locked up for robbery, but this company gets to just decide they want to keep the woman’s money. That’s bullshit. That woman paid for services and she didn’t get those services, so her money should be refunded. Also, I doubt they would have offered her another flight if she hadn’t made a stink.
Another flight is useless, it was her birthday and they ruined it because they don’t remember being children — and I wouldn’t want to use their airline again if I was her.
I have 4 boys all under the age of 9 and if there is one thing I cannot stand it is when another parent does not control their kids whether it be on a plane, in a restaurant, wherever. Not only that, unless it is something urgent like a funeral or a dying relative or something then don’t bring a 2 year old on a plane. It is miserable for the child and they’re going to react as such. You want to fly somewhere for your birthday? So what! Here’s a little secret, sometimes when you are a parent you have to make sacrifices because it isn’t about you anymore. If that means you have to postpone a trip then so be it.
There is no requirement to stay in your seat while passengers are boarding and a 2 year old is probably going to cry during the flight at some point.
It is hard to say who was aT fault, if the kids were really causing a disturbance it was definetely OK to ask them to leave, If the attendant had asked if any juice or snacks would help, that may have calmed them down or they may have just been spoilt little children who had not been taught behavior skills.
That being said, I think after taking them of the plane, they should have taken off the luggage, if I had thought that was part of the new safety requirements. They also should have given them their money back so the could have booked and possibly get thrown off another airline.
If you have a hyper child, and sometimes is is not the parents fault as the child may have medical problems, you should visit your doctor who would probably recommend a small dose of benedryl which they often give to children who when admitted to hospital cannot calm down enough to treat.
What noone has brought up, at AGE 5 a child can fly alone (or they used to be able to I am not up on the current rules). Many many have, did with no problem several times a year. My children flew at ages 6 months, 18 months, and every year thereafter on a 4 hour flight across country to see grandparents with a change of plane. Likewise my grandchildren flew at age 6 months, 8 months, 2, etc. NEVER did they disrupt the other passengers. As I said before, they knew by age 18 months what was expected and acted accordingly. Prior to that pacifier, cookies, etc. worked.
@grammammv: …”never did they disrupt the other passengers”….as far as YOU know. I’ll bet if half the crowd on here was on that plane they’d have made something up just to get you kicked off simply for having a child (regardless if the child really was good or not).
Apparently all the 20-somethings on here were born adults and despise anything younger than themselves…
No mention of whether the crew tried to get the kid to stay in the seat.
An angry stranger can be a lot more effective than an exasperated parent in those situations.
If you control your kids at home, they will behave in public. I’m all about free spirits, but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong.
Blame the parents, they’re bad. If your kids act a fool, you get what you get.
That’s wrong, that’s awful, it’s grievous.
*snicker*
two words…
Tranquilizer Gun.
One has to give the airline the benefit of the doubt that this was a really egregious situation. There are almost always kids on the flight when I travel by air, and on occasion they are bratty (and on a couple of occasions, REEEEALLY bratty), but I’ve never seen anyone get kicked off. That’s because this is a very unusual situation. We only are fooled into thinking it’s not because we’re always READING about it. Airlines aren’t kicking families off flights willy-nilly every day.
As for the commenters here who appear to think that they are entitled to a completely child-free existence: Isn’t that unrealistic, to say the least? We were all kids once. Would you demand a world free of old people? Or … ahem, people who are not of your race or ethnicity? Unreasonable, no? We were all kids once. If you grew up into an adult who is not a huge “kid person,” then hey, fine. Don’t have any, and don’t choose a job where you have to work with them. But don’t expect that you can move through life with no kids ever even coming into your line of sight. Ridiculous.
@Princess Leela: We’re not even always reading about it either. We’ve had two stories about it recently but even if you only look at the ‘person was booted from a plane’ stories it’s usually an adult being kicked off for something they themselves did or didn’t do, not a kid. They certainly don’t make up the majority of airline stories on Consumerist.
A 4 year old is hardly a security risk, however this is simply a case of kids having kids. Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them…just like dogs.
The rest of the passengers shouldn’t have to take care of this box wine bitch’s two latchkey kids because she can’t. +1 for the flight crew.
I’ll give a little leeway on the behavior of a 2 year old. The 4 year old, none at all. By the age of 4 a child should know how to behave in public. Either way, the airline should have put her on the next flight with no incurred fees. If it happens again, banned for life.
Just wanted to point out that the video is now gone.
The airline is right for removed the kids off the plane for their own safety. If the kids can’t stay in their seats, they might get hurt during an unexpected event such as an turbulence.
The kids should be allowed back on the plane only before the flight time and they have calmed downed or take the next flight.
The airline should give them a seat on the next available flight, but not a refund because it was not a fault on both side.
the possible reason for safety is actually very simple, apparently 90% of accidents on a plane occur when the plane is taxiing. a kid running around when it is taxiing to the runway is a major issue.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: If adults are required to stay in their seats for safety reasons, it doesn’t make sense to make an exception for children. If it’s a safety requirement, it’s a safety requirement. If your children can’t obey it, then yes, you risk not being able to fly with them.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Take care to control your kids, your supposed to be the parent.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:
4 year olds like to move…right, however, the plane cannot take off with a kid not in his seat, and if he is possibly causing a delay (which of course would have a domino effect on subsequent flights) I agree with removing them.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Please use your brain… if the kid won’t stay in his seat, he will get hurt during an unexpected event such as a turbulence. That’s a security issue. The airline is correct by remove them off the plane. They should be allowed back on the plane only if the kids are behave and the time is allow.
@NatalieErin: Yeah, kick them off and hand them a voucher for a free equivalent flight. Unless they were so uncooperative that they caused a serious disturbance, if so, keep their money.
@NatalieErin: agreed! disruptive or unsafe children and their families do not need to be on the airplane. But the airline doesn’t get to just keep their money. They should have re-booked them on the next flight free of charge.
@NatalieErin:
That’s what I going to say, the airline was within their rights to remove them from the flight. But to try to upcharge them to take another flight is wrong.
@korybing: I think I agree, but on the other hand, you could argue that that was a seat they couldn’t resell, because it was reserved for her. If you look at it that way, the no-refunds policy is slightly more understandable.
@korybing:
Heh. All my mom every threw at me were dishes and shoes.
@Bahnburner: Entitlement. Yeah, if you purchase plane tickets, you’re entitled to fly, or at the very least, get your money back if the airline decides not to let you fly.
@AirIntake: You’ve missed the point.
You’re an adult, you know the consequence of your behavior. You get sloshing drunk, you know that you’ll get kicked off the plane.
A baby’s natural reaction to a stressful situation is to cry. Babies can’t control that, nor can they predict the consequence. Four-year-olds have similar reactions.
Part of being an ‘adult’ is the ability to control your actions and reactions.
Yet you want to justify adult’s bad behavior by putting them on a morally equivalent level with a child? That’s just wrong.
@Corporate_guy: but what’s the difference between her flying the later flight or the original one? it’s not like her kids are going to mature over a few hours. they’ll just act the same on the next flight.
@coren: How do you know that, How do you know that this flight was not overbooked? maybee they did fill it up when they left.
@craptastico: That’s a good point.
@s73v3r: Where are you getting this info? I watched the whole video and I don’t think at any point did anyone say the four year old was running around. Everyone just said that he was out of his seat. That doesn’t mean running around.
@pecan 3.14159265: It doesn’t matter if you can fit a bull elephant in there, the plane cannot taxi until all passengers, including the 4 year old who is “just being a kid” are seated. Nobody goes anywhere until the kid sits his butt down and buckles his seatbelt, and I imagine that is the root of the problem.
@pecan 3.14159265:
Yes, actually, abiding by the uniformned crew members’s judgment as to what constitutes unacceptable behavior is precisely what you agree to in buying a ticket. The bare fact that the cre members’ judgment is solely theirs, and not subject to appeal does not make it arbitrary.
@AirIntake: ….keep going. You’re proving my point…
@SonicMan: I don’t, but I was responding to crumudgeon’s point that they couldn’t resell it – which is true, they didn’t have the opportunity to in those like, five or ten minutes or whatever. It may have been oversold, but those are seats that are sold already (but I wasn’t really making the argument they couldn’t, just responding to that if it were the case)
@curmudgeon5: I didn’t miss that aspect, I was specifically ignoring it. There’s not enough info from the story to determine if there was a safety risk.
I want to know was what exactly the four year old was doing and what saftey risk it posed. “Wouldn’t stay in his seat” is too vague to make a judgment. The airline would be made to explain if an adult were removed from the plane on such a vague charge.
My point is that an adults annoyance with children is not an excuse to act childishly, as many commenters here do when we get these types of stories.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Parents should be realistic about what their kids can handle. If they can’t take a plane flight, don’t take them on the plane. If they can’t be quiet during a movie, don’t take them to the movies. If they can’t eat in a restaurant without running all over the place and throwing food, don’t take them to a nice restaurant.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:
When I was little and if I was bad in public I would get a small spank, and if I was still bad I would get the belt when we got home. I think I turned out okay as a human.
@dantsea: Except airlines have been throwing people off flihts for any minor thing that bothers the crew. Remember the woman with a kid that was making some noise and they threw her off too. [consumerist.com]
@dantsea: I’m going to side with pecan on this one. Whether a hardened flight crew bounces you for looking at them funny or lets you get away with anything short of murder varies immensely.
The ability of a kid to handle a flight will vary from moment to moment, just as it will for an adult. I average three leisure roundtrips a year, and have days that I am cranky. I told an AF FA what I thought of her countrymen because she wanted me to move my bad knee from a bulkhead aisle to a rear middle. Yet, most flights, I disembark with nothing but smiles and laughter.
Finally, most folks don’t want kids to fly until they can “handle” it. What about folks with a fear of flying – should we ban them? And how does a kid learn to handle flying without actually earning BIS miles? My kid knows that as soon as we step on a plane she goes to 5F. She waits for the car seat to be buckled, and then hops in. But, she wasn’t always like that. And yet, even she had a bad day. Why? Because when you arrive early, only to have your flight delayed, it will screw with your schedule.
@pecan 3.14159265: Oh hell yeah. My kid doesn’t always listen. And if she was shouting on a plane, being kicked off would be inappropriate.
But if she was getting out of her seat, that could put her and other passengers in danger. At that point, I as the parent must intervene for the safety of everyone, and if I fail to – either by lack of effort or lack of ability – then it does become the right of other authority figures to step in and work to the safety of all.
My kid used to wander off in stores too, until she realized that she gets one warning and after that, we leave the store. That was a right royal pain in the ass for me sometimes, but safety is more important than shopping.
Today at Hobby Lobby she asked to not have to ride in the cart. I said okay, as long as she stayed in good behaviour and didn’t wander off (or push/pull the cart too fast since I was leaning on it because of my bad foot). She totally respected that because in the past, when she hasn’t, I’ve removed the privilege she’s asked for very quickly.
If she was in a mood to not listen, I probably wouldn’t have gone there at all even though I really needed the yarn for a friend’s birthday present for next week.
Right now she’s getting to do beading at the same time as watching TV because she has behaved so well all morning, and I make sure to tell her that.
No offense to your friend, but she just taught her kid that not listening pays off because he still got to be out. He now has the power because he knows he doesn’t have to listen to anything she says. And if she punished him after the fact and he’s younger than 5, his brain is most likely incapable of fully linking the punishment to the crime and he still won’t have learned.
@pecan 3.14159265: Exactly, some kids need to push boundaries, it’s an unfortunately normal stage of development, and they don’t exactly discriminate on whether it is a good time or place. Considering how many children fly each year airlines seem to have a rather ham handed way of dealing with it.
I was on a transatlantic flight sitting next to a similar child who just had to defy her mother constantly. With no other choice but air travel, the mother brought toys, books, games, food, everything but a tranquilizer gun and had arranged to have the seats next to the window so she could box the child in if she did start to make a fuss. But the airline changed her and her child’s seats to the very middle row of the plane at the gate and the attendants wouldn’t let her switch even with volunteered seats. Coupled with the fact that the padding of the seat under the child routinely slipped of its frame so she would repeatably fall on the floor, the child acted up and tried to run about the cabin for three hours after the flight took-off despite everything the mother did to prevent it and because of her location multiple people were affected. The child would simply wait until the mother turned her head and off came the seat belt and a renewed attempt to wiggle away.
I didn’t think for a moment that it was the fault of bad parenting or discipline, I thought it was a good example of bad policy. Considering how infamous children on planes are why can’t the safety belts on planes come with child-proof modifications and allow seating be arranged so the disruption to other passengers be mitigated? If they’re strapped securely in a seat then they can’t run amok then the plane can leave on time, no one needs to have their money refunded and no bad PR from tossing angry parents off planes. Throwing people off is an ill-thought out, temporary solution at best.
@kaceetheconsumer: NO, the kids do not have the RIGHT to be on planes, in family restaurants … etc. These are privately owned businesses and it is entirely up to the owner or his representatives to determine who gets to stay. There is no discrimination in this case, the airline is not saying that no one with children may fly, they are saying that when your children present a huge annoyance and safety hazard it is in their best business and safety interest to kick you and your ill behaved offspring off the flight.
@kaceetheconsumer: keep this in mind, everyone has rights but you cant have a right that denies someone of their right.
eg if you go to a public place that is suppose to offer peace and quiet and a kid who has the right to be there wont stop disrupting the place then they will be removed.
everyone has the right to am education but that doesn’t change the fact that if your kid cant control them self, they will be thrown out of the class room.
most airline rules such as talking on phones have nothing to do with the equipment on the plane, it is to preserve the peace and quietness of the plane. if they allowed phones and everyone started talking on them because there isn’t much else to do, the plane will soon begin to sound like a riot and everyone will be talking over each other, aka no peace and quiet.
@ben: bye, you wont be missed. I love all the excuses people make. I have been flying since I was about 6 and you never heard a peep out of me. My sister has been flying since she was a baby and never once did she disturb a flight or misbehave, same thing with my brother. We are 3 different people with different personalities that were taught from a very young age how to behave. I don’t buy the line that kids can act up, its called learn to control your kids from day one, before you leave the house. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
@SkuldChan:
My kids are normally great in my opinion. However everybody gets cranky me included sitting in one place for 5 hrs. It doesn’t help that you need to have all your means of distraction tucked away for takeoff. All 2 yr olds wear thier emotions on thier sleeves and will let you know about it. For older kids absolutely you can look to the parents but they don’t call them the terrible twos for nothing.
@SkuldChan: To some extent it is the parents, but there are other mitigating factors that come into play, the overal health of the child, and how rested (or tired) the child is at any particular moment.
I have 2 children, 5yr (girl) and 8yr (boy). Both kids when they were infants and toddlers were relatively well behaved when they were rested, but when they were tired, they would react completely differently. My daughter would snuggle up with mom or dad and fall asleep, my son would try to fight it until he was overtired and then become unbearable.
As they have gotten older, their attitutes have changed. My daughter will still enjoy snuggling with mom or dad, but if she tries to fight napping she will become overtired and acts as if she is hyperactive (when in reality, she is simply doing anything that she can to stay awake, because if she sat still for 5 seconds she would be out like a light). My son generally now will simply find a comfortable place and fall asleep, but if you wake him up before he is ready to be woken up he turns into an absolute TERROR.
If the child is sick or not feeling well it can change their entire attitude…generally making them tired.
Fortunately, most parents know their kids and know exactly how to diffuse a bad situation, but on a plane, those tricks (like taking the child to a corner for time out) may not always be possible, and attitudes may not be predictable because of the additional stress in flying that the parents might feel (that the kids can totally detect).
@SkuldChan:
THIS.
I have an aunt with kids and an uncle with kids. The aunt’s kids are polite and well-behaved, while the uncle’s kids are whining brats.
Now, both of them were raised by the same parents (obviously), and both of them are equally accomplished, have the same social outlook, etc. Which means the other parent in each case, naturally, has an effect.
On the one side, we have a husband who stands in unison with the wife whenever there’s a problem. On the other, we have a wife who immediately takes the opposing position.
Hrm….
@SkuldChan: No.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Actually, they do and have removed adults from the plane when they wouldn’t sit down prior to take-off. It’s a safety rule.
@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: “”Wouldn’t stay in his seat” is too vague to make a judgment.”
“Wouldn’t stay in his seat” IS the safety issue, you don’t need to know anything more than that. FAA regulations prevent a plane from leaving a gate to taxi onto the runway if ANYONE is not sitting in their seat, buckled in, with seat back and tray tables in an upright position. This is not an arbitrary airline policy; it’s FAA-wide regulations.
So whether the person who is not buckled in is 4 or 44 years old, and whether he’s not seated because he’s a child who hasn’t learned to listen, is a sloshed grownup, or is having a psychotic breakdown, the plane can’t leave the gate. That can cause a pretty quick ripple effect of delays (i.e. the plane can lose its takeoff slot with only a 10 minute delay, which then turns into a 45 minute delay to get back into the queue).
@zerj: Probably it’s less about the crying two year old, and more about the ‘running around’ four year old, which is certainly disruptive and potentialy unsafe, rather than merely annoying.
However, I’d sure like to hear the other side of this story. The mom will certainly not admit to having out of control kids.
@AirIntake: All I know is that I used to have to fly to Thailand at least 4 times a year. During that time, sometimes there were unruly kids, sometimes there weren’t. I accepted it as a part of flying and was able to “tune it out” even when the kids were in the seat right next to me.
If I can do it, others can as well. Again, man up pansies, stop acting like the precious snowflakes you are accusing these mothers of having as children.
This argument drives me nuts. sometimes people with unruly kids HAVE to fly. (Funeral, operation etc.)
@pecan 3.14159265:
The problem with your argument that the airline should have given her time or assistance is that 1.) by giving her time, they are wasting the time of every other passenger on the plane and 2.) the airline is not responsible for keeping the passengers children in line. If she couldnt handle flying alone with two chidren, then she shouldnt have been on a plane.
@Snullbug: +1.
Additionally, it’s really aggravating when parents assume that people without children must somehow accomodate people WITH children to sometimes-extreme lengths just because some people chose to bring demon-spawn into the world. Why must the child-less always make exceptions for the child-full? People without children, or without children present, have every right to enjoy their flight, just as the parent has some modicum of entitlement to a bit of understanding that children aren’t always well-behaved. But, the vast majority of passengers on a plane are without child (either through logistics or biology), and should not have to endure people who cannot, or perhaps will not control a child, either at the moment, or over the course of said demon spawn’s adolescent years.
@pecan 3.14159265:
I don’t really think it is the airline’s responsibility to control her children. What kind of help did she need? Someone to strap the 4 year old to the seat? Someone to hold her baby while she changed the diaper? Not sure what you expect them to do about it. Physically restrain the 4 year old? I’d think she’d then be suing. The airline can either delay the flight while the situation is dealt with, causing a cascade of missed flights for the rest of the day, and thousands of mad people, or just remove the problem.
@ben: Agree with you there – it appears they are holding it for her as credit, but they should give her the refund for sure.
@mm16424: How about you be an adult, put some headphones on and mind your own damn business.
Unless the kid is kicking YOUR sear or smacking YOU in the forehead it’s none of YOUR damn business because it’s not really causing YOU any problems. Just cause you can see it doesn’t mean it’s causing you a problem.
@Snullbug: “NO, the kids do not have the RIGHT to be on planes, in family restaurants … etc. These are privately owned businesses and it is entirely up to the owner or his representatives to determine who gets to stay.”
Not true. There are laws to protect against discrimination in such cases. You can’t hang a “no children” sign on just any restaurant door any more than you can hang a “no black people” sign.
As for the safety hazard, I agreed with that part, nitwit. Try reading someone’s entire post next time before you spout a bunch of nonsense. And thank you for not reproducing!
@pecan 3.14159265:
that’s the whole point–everyone has to be seated and restrained in order to get that far. This woman couldn’t get her precious snowflake that far.
@sirwired: how can you say it’s no fault of the airline? they didn’t miss the flight, they were ejected from it. maybe they were right to do it, maybe they weren’t but you can’t say it’s no fault of the airline.
The fussy 2-yr-old was a red herring, the real issue was the kid that wouldn’t stay buckled in.
@sirwired: This
Since the mom said, ‘a few minutes’ and both the reporter and airline say, ‘would not *stay* seated’ (as opposed to not sitting at all) it sounds like the kid got up several times.
I would also think that everyone else would have been seated during this or else seated by the time they were asked to get off.
@bunnymare: If your argument is that they have the same rights as adults, shouldn’t they be treated like an adult? If an adult was being disruptive, he’d probably get kicked off too.
@bunnymare:
There are no “rights” without responsibility, bunnymare, and the extent to which children can be responsible is the extent to which they have rights. The shortfall is the responsibility of the parent.
@realserendipity:
1.) by giving her time, they are wasting the time of every other passenger on the plane
- Does this mean I can just knock over all the tard business people who hold up everyone getting on and off the plane while they stand there taking off their coat, folding it, putting it into the overhead, taking off their suit jacket, folding it, putting that in the overhead, then spending another 5 minutes trying to stuff their overly plump carry-on in the overhead, then pulling out someone elses carry-on to stuff their totebag into the overhead then finally looking around while snapping for the steward to get a pillow and blanket for them before sitting down.
Seriously, I haven’t been on a flight for the last 5 years that this hasn’t happened.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: Thanks, but I’ve had plenty of stink eye aimed at me for having my infant/toddler cry in public, which I had no control over.
When we flew from Vegas to Sydney when my daughter was 21 months old, she cried a few times on that 16 hour flight. I wanted to cry myself. It sucked big time. But I worked really hard to keep her crying to a minimum…I nursed on demand (as always), I bought special toys beforehand to produce as distractions throughout the flight, I stayed up the whole time to entertain her as much as possible, etc. And yet I still got glared at by the woman in the next row when my daughter so much as peeped.
@curmudgeon5: Well i’m not sure what else to call the “child haters”. Apparently most on here can’t stand to be near a child that isn’t doped up and practically comatose (see other comments made on this article about drugging kids, jokes or not, it’s still being said with other agreeing).
There is NO WAY you can honestly look at these comments and NOT think that practically everyone hates kids. Apparently every flyer on here was a model child and as an adult is so self centered that even the smallest infraction of their personal space, auditory canals or range of sight requires that person, or child as it seems, should be removed, parents deemed unfit and permanently banished from society.
@pecan 3.14159265: True, but her attitude can shed light on her whole treatment of the situation. One, she’s going for sensationalism instead of asking the airline for service – though sometimes that helps once it hits the media, it indicates she’s looking for show.
I’m speaking more toward her attitude in the video. She seems (to me) like she’s extremely immature.
I agree with all the previous comments on various topics above – kids act out all the time, and there’s very little you can do to control it sometimes. However, your kids should know when you are unhappy and know consequences if you tell them they are in trouble. If they continue to act out, it is the responsibility of the parent to discipline them there an get them in line (threaten privledge removal or something) or get the hell out of dodge and deal with it in private.
This woman instead feels that it is everyone’s responsibility to deal with her lack of discipline towards her children.
@kaceetheconsumer: Well said in your last paragraph. You can start teaching kids at around 2 years old that actions have consequences, so by the time they are 4 for the most part they know even better than to try (or on the rare occasions when they do, they are already giving you the side eye to see if you are going to bring on the punishment).
@treimel: uhm… yeah – it DOES make it arbitrary. Since there are absolutely NO written guidelines, and even if there were, it is STILL subjective. Little children are NOT robots, and we, as a society, do give them leeway. Those of you without children, or not having had responsibility for children in any case, should just butt out. The airline was in the wrong in this case.
@AirIntake: The news story specifically said she could use the money she paid for that flight toward a different flight.
@mm16424: yeah, cause kids will stop crying on command. Maybe we should slap them around some just to make sure.
Sometimes Children just need time to be comforted when they are upset.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: I never blame the children. The children don’t know nay better. I always blame the parents, always. You are the adult, you are in control at all times. There is never a reason why your child should get the best of you. Too many people want to coddle kids and put them on an adult level and then when they try to discipline them the child does not respect or listen to the parent.
Sorry but I am an old school type of disciplinarian, even though i don’t have kids I use the same rule with my cat. My cat gets knows by the tone of my voice that she is doing something she shouldn’t be (walking on the tv stand, jumping on the counters, etc) and she stops (with some meow bitching but she still stops). If she does something really bad, like try to run out on the fire escape or is eating something that can harm her she gets her butt spanked. Trust me she doesn’t do it again. I don’t abuse my baby girl and she is the most sweetest, lovable, friendly cat you ever want to meet. She always sleeps with me, she listen to commands, she does not bite or scratch, she loves to comfort me when I am sick or sad and just rub up on me to show me she is happy that I am there. We have a great relationship and I will raise my kids in the same manner. It’s all about balance. That’s the way i was raised and that is the way I will raise my children.
@formergr: I would agree where there are circumstances where people need to be removed and some parents are simply terrible, my comments were more in general and understanding that everyone has bad days and children are not always able to internalize it like us adults.
I too hate when I have a crying child behind me but I don’t want to kick them off because of it. A crying child does not equal a bad child or terrible parenting.
@bwcbwc: I think most parents probably have a pretty good idea of whether or not their kid can sit still for a few hours.
I’ve known parents who avoided certain social situations because they knew their kids weren’t up to it yet. It can be done, and it’s just basic courtesy.
@CityGuySailing: Actually, there are written guidelines, and they can be found in the written code of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those FARs state that an aircraft door cannot be closed (not just aircraft ground movement) until every passenger is seated with their seatbelts fastened. I can go get my flight attendant manual to quote the actual law if you need more confirmation. And yes, I’ve had to remove a mother and her child from my flight, and I hated every minute of it. But if I didn’t, I could have lost my job, and the company would have been hit big time by the FAA.
Passengers agree to abide by FAA regulations (including crew member instructions) when they purchase a ticket, bottom line.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: you know a lot about parenting, are you a parent? Two year old’s don’t understand consequence but you must know that already. I don’t have a four year old so I don’t know what they understand. You also mention subjecting everyone to crying. On the grand scheme of terrible things that happen to me a day someone crying in my vicinity doesn’t even really register. Have you encountered many small children that have caused you physical harm? If you have I completely understand your fear. I also am sorry for you parents, assuming you had them, I hope you have apologized to them for crying in their vicinity as well when you were young and causing them some sort of sever detriment. If you merely dislike crying, then i have a laundry list of things I don’t like that are done near me. I’m afraid I no control over those things though including throwing people off of transportation we happen to be sharing.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.:
Yeah, I know, but is it really that hard for them to offer a little extra customer support (not service)? Even a bag of peanuts, or heck, even saying “see that little white bag there?” *kid stops crying for a sec* “yeah..” “well, do you know what they’re for??” “no… *sniffle*” “so people can PUKE EWWWWWW!!!” “! really? groosss!” or whatever. I dunno, just these little things make a big difference when you’re dealing with kids.
@craptastico: Yes, because kids consistently act the exact same way every second of every day.
@ktjamm: Let me say, I notice when your kids are well behaved, many don’t but that’s because being quiet and respectful is the norm, and we tend not to congratulate meeting the threshold of decency. People also get angry at adults who are loud and obnoxious, go figure.
Anyway not liking fat people or nasal voiced people is not the same. Such voice if quiet does not encroach on your life. Such “fat” person if they request extra space or buy an extra ticket, let’s say, do not encroach on your space. caring or being annoyed otherwise is not reasonable, its bigotry.
your child actually screaming in a place where I can’t but hear them, is not the same. If the nasal voiced person refuses to be quieter, then you are reasonably annoyed, but then its volume, not nasalness that annoys you reasonably. Your biases are not the same.
@gtrgod01: Lovely attitude. Hope your teach your kids to be rude, incosiderate pricks too.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: So her kids are “asshats” because they were maybe having a bad day…..and you are able to judge that from reading an article that most agree leaves out very important facts.
….i guess i was wrong about you having a little more sense than the others.
@trujunglist: They were sort of trying to get the plane off the ground. Everything is secured for takeoff. If they’re already breaking out the pilot’s wings and the plane hasn’t even left the gate, then it’s gonna be a loooong flight. They can’t really do anything until the plane is in the air and they can’t put the plane in the air until the kid sits his butt down. The flight staff is responsible for safety checks, etc by law, not pacifying a 4 year old with food. That’s MOM’S job.
As an aside, this is the reason NOT to allow lap children. The 4 year old had their own seat by law, but sometimes it helps to be able to strap down the immobile ones and deal with the mobile ones for five minutes.
@ktjamm: no one is trying to ostracize you. no one said kids can’t fly. or shouldn’t be allowed in society, or at least I’m not nor have I throughout this conversation. Just that sometimes it will happen, and at those times, take responsibility. Hopefully those times won’t be all day everyday and you can still be in society just fine.
Geez get a grip. Just because we are critiquing you and suggesting alternatives if you don’t believe your kid can handle on tiny part of interpersonal interaction doesn’t mean that anyone said kids or parents should be banned from society.
@jvanbrecht:
Removal of privileges does work, you just have to be more creative than they are. Running off to a friend’s house? Ground them. That’s an easy one. And the application of physical force (carrying them kicking and screaming into their room) is different from physical punishment. Further, the backbone of what I said is not the removal of privileges anyway, but the positive reinforcement of good behavior.
You complain about society raising children on TV, giving in, having no backbone, etc., but that is not only a completely separate issue, but completely against what I actually said. It takes a more involved parent to positively reinforce their child for good behavior than it takes to punish poor behavior, and that is the real reason people don’t want to do it. It’s far easier and takes much less time to smack a kid for acting up than it is to reward a kid for behaving.
@Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather:
What you fail to realize is that my “psycho-babble bullshit” is based off of decades of empirical research, case studies, longitudinal observational research, and nationwide surveys. There is far more evidence for positive reinforcement working than “well, this is how my parents did it, and I turned out okay, so it must be right.” You also failed to actually read most of what I said. By using positive reinforcement to encourage good behavior from birth, the kids will continue to practice good behavior on their own without the need of a fear for punishment. Call me in 20 years (so my kids have a chance to grow up) and we’ll compare.
@mm16424:
Positive reinforcement is not the same as “give in to whatever the kid says.” You give positive reinforcement for good behavior only and never give in to bad behavior.
@axiomatic:
You would lose. They violated the safety rules, period. The airline at that point has a responsibility to the rest of the passengers on board and their safety. They were removed from the flight.
@Azuaron: If you can’t handle being around kids, why don’t you drive yourself instead of taking public transportation where there are other people around who might not live up to your behavioral expectations?
@craptastico: They were ejected from it because her kid prevented the plane from pushing back from the gate. She wasn’t ejected because of some arbitrary whim of the airline. It would have been illegal for the aircraft to push back with the kid unbuckled. That is in no way the airline’s fault, it’s the LAW. One passenger cannot hold a whole flight hostage and expect to receive a refund for doing so. How on earth can this be the airline’s fault?
@ben: It’s not just my behavioral expectations. I like the idea of a voting system.
@gtrgod01: I’m saying that parents should consider the people around them, instead of copping an “it’s all about me” attitude that they’re entitled to take their kids anywhere regardless of how it affects others.
There’s a certain air of moral superiority that some people get when they have kids. They suddenly expect all kinds of special treatment just because they’re breeding.
@ben: : “”Society should not be inconvenienced by your choice.” Heh, you realize that without people choosing to have children, there would be no society, right?”
If that’s the trade-off, then I’d be perfectly ok with having no society and no screaming little brats.
@RayonFog: I fully appreciate that “every situation is defined by a unique set of circumstances”, but frankly when I’m getting ready to take a 6-hours flight and I’m trying to avoid a migraine from someone’s screaming kids, I don’t really give a crap about unique circumstances. I just want peace and quiet. My right to have a restful $400 flight is not trumped by your right to let your kids run wild.
@Orv: They’re probably allowed to limit the number of people, just as any hall or restaurant or whatever has a maximum capacity that the fire department can set.
But if they said any number of non-students could come in and only two students at a time, that’s almost certainly discriminatory and they could probably be sued over it.
Remember, just because someone does something and doesn’t get caught/prosecuted doesn’t make it legal. There are undoubtedly places that do hang up “no black people” signs, although I suspect with harsher language. And they probably live in places where local cops support that kind of thing. Doesn’t make it legal.
@soloudinhere:
I highly doubt that honestly. sort of trying to get the plane of the ground for an airline = telling everyone to hurry the fuck up and get on, only to wait there for 20 minutes while some VIP gets hurried to the gate. i’ve seen that happen a dozen+ times at least. the term hurry up and wait was never so valid as when applied to airline doublespeak.
@glevkoff: Who said i had kids?
@Orv: I have yet to see a car seat that a child can quickly finesse their way out of and cars are more far more dangerous than planes and my suggestion was for the same target ages. The strap and buckle could modifications added on individually according to need akin to the lengtheners for obese passengers and could be made so an adult could easily open then in emergencies a child could be quickly set free. Safety regulations already hold that children will be need to be tended to by adults in emergencies, which is why people are instructed to put their masks on first.
@Barbobaggins: This is what I get for not sleeping.
Corrections on the second sentence: “The strap and buckle could be…. open them in emergencies and a…”
Sorry for that. It’s two in the morning here and I forget all my English coursework at around 1 AM.
@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: ……ahhh there is that self-entitled 20-something don’t annoy me attitude again….”totally unacceptable”….like any parent dealing with a crying child really cares what YOU think is acceptable or not (the world doesn’t revolve around you). Their focus is the child, not your overly sensitive ears and your inability to deal with a little kid screaming (again, the world doesn’t revolve around you). If the kid running up and down the aisle isn’t stepping on your feet, bumping into your seat or hindering your immediate travel to the bathroom it’s not your concern. You see, airlines have people that deal with that, they are called flight attendants, let them earn their pay…..so mind your own business and go back to sleep.
What if I find your attitude “totally unacceptable”….maybe you should not comment here any more…..tell us, how do you feel now?
@Razor512: The noise of the engines is far louder than most infant cries, especially if you are seated right next to the wing or at the back, and it is sustained through the entire flight on every flight. So I won’t accept any argument that a crying child who is too young to be reasoned with is any worse when it’s been shown that some engine noise gets into the damaging levels.
@gtrgod01: I’m pretty sure that he feels like me — You are seriously lacking in basic logic skills, and are maybe a little bit slow.
@gtrgod01: yo. You seem to have missed the fact that THE FAA says that ANYone not in their seat when required to be in their seat is “totally unacceptable”.
@gtrgod01: AMEN!
I would really love for some of the childless people (those who are so wonderfully insightful about parent’s lack of discipline) to tell me how they would discipline a tantruming two year old and still retain complete control over a busy four year old?
You are on an airplane. You have nothing to entertain them with (or you can’t access it), there’s no place to put them in time out or otherwise segregate them, you have no priviledges to revoke… God only gave you two pair of hands and everyone in the entire plane is hemming and hawing and cursing you under their breath.
What do you do? I’m guessing most would opt for either strangulation, violent beatings, or drugging — all of those things you would call child abuse otherwise. I’m guessing that because every time I read one of these “bad kid on an airplane” stories, a group of people who describe children as demon-spawn and complain about being subjected to them post their endless “parents should discipline their offspring better!” comments without ever offering even ONE suggestion on how to better discipline a child on an airplane.
I don’t take my son on planes, he’s too young to deal with it and with his disability the experience would be too stressful…BUT if we were moving across country, to another country, had an emergency family situation or funeral to attend to, or some other life altering event I would. I’d do my best to control him, and he’d probably cry — because even though he’s normally a great kid, he’s not perfect. Then all the childless Consumerist readers could come here to talk about what an awful parent I am.
I lay awake at night praying that I can be half the parent that childless people and childless people with pets are.
@formergr: The plane was still boarding when the family was removed, not trying to take off, taxi or even push back. The spokesperson made no indication of the pilot attempting to move the plane.
“Wouldn’t stay in his seat” could mean he stood up to get a toy as the flight attendant walked by. That’s a safety issue? Are you saying you’re not allowed to move at all once seated?
Suppose it were an adult who sat in their seat, buckled in, then remembered their magazine in their carry-on in the overhead compartment. The plane is still boarding, but they stand up to get it just as the flight attendant walks by.
What would you say if the flight attendant had that adult kicked off the plane without a refund or an explanation other than they “wouldn’t stay in their seat” and were a “safety issue” in this situation?
No one said that the four year-old causing a disturbance, or that he was in the way. No one said that he stood up to get a toy at the wrong time. Either way you’re making an assumption with second hand information that reveals more your bias than your understanding of the situation.
@Radi0logy: Absolutely, take responsibility for your children, your pets, and yourself. I find it ridiculous, however, that adults excuse their bad behavior because someone else is behaving worse than they. That type of behavior is infantile.
These stories and comment threads almost always devolve into a “you control your kid, or I’m gonna lose it” type posts, the irony of which the commenters fail to see.
It’s sad.
@Saboth: It’s Allegiant we’re talking about… they pad the hell out of their layovers and their flights are all Base-out city-base so it wouldn’t cause a cascade of anything.
I’m usually on the side of the airlines – I work at one – and I think giving her the boot was ok… however, a refund should have been given, so time for a chargeback.
@harrier666: ….so you, and a select few others on here, are able to determine it was solely about “the kid wouldn’t sit in his seat” based on an incomplete article that leaves out important details. Wouldn’t the title of the article have been “misbehaving kid” instead of “kids”?? It clearly states “kids” and mentions the 2yr old was crying. Apparently crying WAS part of the issue.
Look, i’ve never once in any of my posts defended or slammed the airline for removing the family. That was a decision they made and that article doesn’t give enough info to form an opinion on if they were correct in doing so. My posts are all aimed at the commentors who all seem to hate kids on planes (not just this article, any on this site that involves a child), regardless of what they are doing.
This site has a very “mob” mentality about anything that annoys them. A kid cries on a plane annoying one self-centered prick and by the end of the post the kid should of either been kicked off the plane with his (or her) parents shamed for life or the kid is drugged and strapped to the wings. You better watch out, you’re a pilot. Been a lot of stories in the news lately about drunk pilots. By next week you might get slammed on here for being a drunk pilot…
I’ll bet most that are kid hating on here have never even been on a plane with a truly “unruly” child….
@JilliefromChile: Since when is not flying until the child is old enough “living in a cave?”
@H3ion: How easy is it for the flight attendants to communicate to the passengers in the case of an emergency when there is a screaming baby drowning out the words of said flight attendant? If a grown man sitting next to you on the plane was screaming for 3 hours straight, would you tolerate it? The why or who isn’t important.
And as many of you have guessed, I don’t have children yet but I’m working on it. As someone who flies for a living, however, my kids won’t be flying until they are old enough to chew gum at the earliest. That is out of courtesy for my fellow air passengers. If we really need to see a relative several states away, my diesel car gets great mileage.
@JilliefromChile: Why does “take a car” keep translating into “live in a cave”?
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@saigumi: Those people are delaying your ability to sit in your seat. I doubt seriously that any of them delayed the actual take-off time.
@gtrgod01: First if no one needs to give a crap about Cupajoe’s migraine, then no one needs to give a crap about someone’s kids’ being frightened, or restless, or upset, and therefore, get off the damn plane, without question because your reasons don’t matter and we don’t have to care.
Anyway its not actually about one person’s migraine, or one parent or child’s “right” to fly. Its about everyone’s reasonable expectation to have a reasonably baseline okay experience out in the world. and if you and your child are the problem, then you and you child take care of it by either getting reasonably quiet, or leaving, so everyone, the guy with the migraine, the woman who is annoyed, the flight attendants can do their job with minimal onstruction, etc., etc.
Not caring is however not what I’m advocating for. Instead when its gets too much, or you have to make decision that affects the next few hours, like leaving a kid who will possibly be restless and loud for an entire flight, parents need to take their lumps and deal with the consequences.
PS the rights of the many trump the rights of the few in our society often. Everyone’s right to a baseline experience is more important than the parent and child’s right to subject everyone else to obnoxiousness. I’m not saying every little thing done warrants getting kicked off, but sometimes people (not just kids) are obnoxious enough to get kicked off whether they can control their behavior or not. You get no pass because you are a kid.
Sincerely,
A 20 something who thinks about everyone’s rights and just their own familial unit’s rights
@gtrgod01: “It’s not hotel room you moron”…”this jerks idea of what is or is not acceptable behavior”.
Ah, the rationed and civil response of the shitty parent. That’s an assumption, I admit. I *assume* you have kids based on your rude behavior to me and your personal attacks. As long as we’re going to let this degenerate into personal attacks, try this one on for size. If you do in fact have kids, then it’s quite obvious based on your behavior in this thread that you are very likely doing a lousy job raising them. YOU are what’s wrong with this society and your children are (probably) ill-behaved little monsters who should be forcibly sterilized so they don’t pass this lousy parenting on another generation.
@gtrgod01: Let’s leave personal insults out of this. Thanks.
@Cupajo: Something tells me you are just a spoiled little 20-something that is used to getting his (or her) own way a little too much in life.
Maybe you watch a little too much reality tv….it’s not an Island and you don’t get to vote off who you deem undesirable. The fact of the matter is the only reason Flight attendants started kicking people off planes is because their jobs started to really suck after their management ran the airlines into the ground. Prior to the airlines having financial problems it was almost absolutely unheard of for someone who wasn’t absolutely flat assed drunk to be taken off a plane. Ever notice how poor of service you get on just about any flight? Or how disgruntled practically any flight attendant is?
….on the subject of rational responses….you really expect that on a site like this? Childless “parents” telling real parents how to raise their children?
oh and also for the record…no one has the “right” to fly in peace and quiet. The airline only promises to get you from A to B…that’s it. There is no such thing as your “rights” in this scenario, it’s a made up fantasy you self-centered “all about me” types make up to justify your selfish moronic behavior and comments.
….and for the record i have no children. You don’t have any because it would take away from your “me” time looking in the mirror stroking your ego.
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Unfortunately, if I show up drunk for my flight they will very likely prevent me from boarding, even though alcohol is a depressant and I will probably just fall asleep in my seat. But some douchenozzle parent who’s too busy chatting on his Bluetooth and watching a movie on his iPhone to control his damned kids will march right up the boarding ramp.
@Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather: you’re seriously comparing raising kids to owning a cat? LOL, that’s some funny shit right there.
@JiminyChristmas: Oh! My mom threw shoes at me! To be fair I was being an awful little jerk about them and kinda deserved it, but still.
@kaceetheconsumer: This isn’t in line with the discussion — I’m asking you directly because you sound like a responsible person who might have tried this type of thing.
Do you think it’s possible to prepare a 2-3 year old for a flight to any degree? Can you go to a food court at noon a few times to acclimate them to noise and crowds? In particular, I’m wondering about teaching them to clear their ears. You can’t practice unless you’ve got mountains nearby, but could you drill the pinch-your-nose-and-blow method for a few weeks prior to the flight?
I’m childless and pretty damned good at defusing small kids who know and trust me. But I don’t have any experience with preparing for a situation, and I don’t know how much you can realistically do.
@gtrgod01: “You, again, think you have the “right” to dictate what proper behavior of those around you should be”
If cupajo doesn’t have that right, then neither do you, and so when Cupajo objects to your (or anyone else’s) obnoxious children, you need to sit down and shut up about it, because you have absolutely no right to tell cupajo how to behave.
Oh, and you also don’t have the right to tell a passenger to stop screaming in your ear in retaliation for having to listen to your (or anyone else’s) squalling little monsters for the whole flight.
But something tells me that, since you’ve been railing on cupajo without,by your own reasoning, any right or justification to do so, you’ll also object if someone disturbs YOUR tranquility.
Which leads us to the only possible conclusion – that being, you are typical of parents (whether you are one or not) who have no regard for anyone’s “rights” but their own, and who object loudly and vociferously when others do things that they don’t like, but who feel no reticence to trample all over the rights, wishes, and tranquility of others.
Thanks for making that clear to us.
@kexline: You can try, but I would anticipate failure and then maybe occasionally be pleasantly surprised by success.
I’d say for most 2 year olds, no way, no how. Maybe some three year olds, if they’re generally inclined to be the kind of kid who is tolerant of new situations.
But it depends on so many factors…how long is the flight, how many connections, what time of day, how noisy the flight is otherwise, how cramped are the seats, etc.
A lot of what affects the kid is the emotional state of the parents, so if people are being asshats towards the parents and putting them on the defensive from the start, that increases their stress level and kids pick up on that and react accordingly.
As for ear-clearing, the pinch-and-blow method doesn’t even work for me. Little does, most of the time. I have a jaw problem that puts pressure on my ears and I walk around half-deaf all the time as a result, but even before that problem came up, I’ve always had trouble clearing my ears. Some people have it easier than others.
So while you can teach it, it doesn’t mean it’ll work anyway, even if the kid learns it. And most kindergarteners are still having trouble at nose-blowing, so I wouldn’t expect a toddler or preschooler to be able to get it and do it effectively.
Having the attitude of being able to defuse kids is a good start, because it means you probably approach them from a positive mindset. I know that when I didn’t have kids and travelled, I found that I could make a parent’s life so much easier just by smiling and mugging at their little kids. An adult willing to play a bit of peek a boo from the seat in front can do WONDERS.
BTW I’m not sure you can teach much at a food court other than food consumption…it can be sensory overload there while an airplane can be boring. Again, different kids react in different ways to different situations.
I bought my kid a vintage Fisher Price Little People plane before our Oz trip. She loved it and played with it (do not, I repeat, DO NOT fly her airline unless you like being flown upside down and shaken!), but it totally didn’t translate into the real-world experience. Couldn’t stick her head out the window like the Little People can, for one…
I have a 15 month old. We fly. There is no problem. One child can be handled properly by one (or two) parents. Planning is involved – this excludes over half of the population. Plan flights around naptimes and engage in activities that will help the tyke nap. Bring toys (the attendants will let you have them out if it keeps the kid quiet.) As for the cabin pressure working on the ears, someone said that there is nothing you can do. When he was younger, on takeoff and landing my wife just nursed him. This kept his jaws working and balanced out the pressure similarly to chewing gum. Now we give him something to eat or play funny-face games with him to get hime to balance out the pressure. He is not always an angel to be around in a plane, but we have had an order of magnitude more compliments than complaints. When people see that you are trying your best to quiet the kid, they cut you some slack… especially if it is working!