Family Kicked Off Flight For Misbehaving Kids, No Refund

An Arizona mom says she was flying to Billings, Montana for her birthday — but never got off the ground because the airline kicked her — and her unruly kids off the flight. They were told they could take another flight — if they paid for it. The airline says it’s their policy not to offer refunds.

Apparently, while still boarding their Allegiant Air flight, the woman’s 2-year-old started to cry. While she was trying to calm the toddler down, her 4 year old got “restless” and wouldn’t stay in his seat.

The airline removed the family from the plane and told them they could take another flight but neglected to mention at the time that this flight would cost $900 more. The airline says they will FedEx her luggage back from Montana (it was apparently behaving itself in the cargo hold,) and offered her a credit towards a future flight. She wants a refund.

Here’s the news report from 3TV in Phoenix:


Airline boots family for crying baby, no refund given [AZFamily.com] (Thanks, Kym!)

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  1. hunter3742 says:

    They offered credit for another flight. That’s good enough. They were perfectly withing their rights removing the family, and I’m certain everyone else on the flight was thankful.

    Control your kids in public, people.

    • ubermex says:

      @hunter3742: A credit towards and a credit for are different. The credit is probably not the full price.

    • pecan 3.14159265 says:

      @hunter3742: That’s not the point. She didn’t get to go where she needed to go, and they never told her that the next flight out was not at a time anywhere near the time of her scheduled departure.

      Kids cry. She was trying to control her kids, and keep them calm. Allegiant Air didn’t give her a chance to even make it work.

    • cabjf says:

      @hunter3742: Yes, because kids are just robots you can control with the touch of a button.

      • gStein_*|bringing starpipe back|* says:

        @cabjf: yours aren’t?

      • sleze69 says:

        @cabjf: Not with the touch of a button…but good parents either have control of their kids OR know that their kids won’t be able to cope with air travel (and don’t bring them).

        • puddinhead says:

          @sleze69: that’s what I love best about my 2 year old…she always behaves in exactly the same way, so I can totally predict her every move and emotion!

          I can’t believe I wasted so much time asking other parents for advice when I should have just turned to those without children. They have all the answers!

          • soundreasoning says:

            @puddinhead: I have no kids, and I understand that kids can be hard to control sometimes, but my father always said, “If you want to have kids, you have to be ready to make scene” and by that he meant two things 1. You have to be ready for your kids to embarrass you and 2. you have to be ready to embarrass yourself and make that move of taking them out of the situation that is causing a problem if they don’t listen, basically you have to escalate, which can be embarrassing in public.

            You see when you choose to have kids, its not the kids that are being embarrassing or cranky, its you in the plural, as a unit, including yourself. If the kids are out of control, then you, as a unit, are out of control, and you need to take care of it. It’s not the people around you’s problem if you can’t get your kid to behave reasonably in the relatively short window before take-off. Because, you see, the airline must by letting you stay when your kid is unruly, risk having that kid not calm down and be unruly for an entire flight. Sometimes that means making the hard call that you, as a unit, have to leave. And you who share in your child’s successes and failures even beyond your control, or your child’s control at times, need to deal with that.

            • ktjamm says:

              So this is what I’m hearing – Those of us with young children should break from society and live in a cave while our young mature.

              young children react to stress by crying, or fidgeting. they don’t have the restraints adults have put into place.

              Children can be very well behaved 99% of the time, and STILL freak out because 1) it’s probably a completely unfamiliar experience to most young children 2) getting from the terminal to the plan can be rather harrowing at times for an adult 3) Airplane are full of loud noises, unfamiliar people, and lots of stress.

              I’m very tired of people saying “Control your kids” because most people already do that very well. Children still are children. Stuff happens.

              • soundreasoning says:

                @ktjamm: No children should not break away from society, you just need to take responsibility for consequences associated with their actions. It’s very reasonable. I’m not saying it’s easy, it’s hard. That’s why I don’t have kids.

              • shadowkahn says:

                @ktjamm: Yeah, stuff happens. No one expects your children to be perfect all, or even most, of the time. However, we do expect that you, as the mature adult, recognize when you or your children are being rude and disturbing others. We also expect you to do something about it.

                Too often we see parents who say “Well that’s just what kids do.” That’s true. That is what kids do. And the unsaid-but-implied message is “I chose to have these children, and you have to deal with being irritated by them.”

                And that is where we part ways. You chose to have the children. If I wanted to be annoyed by constant screaming, crying, and running up and down, I would have had children myself. Society should not be inconvenienced by your choices. If you chose to have the kid, then you have to deal with the inconvenience of realizing that there are some things that you cannot do until the kid is old enough to handle it.

                You’re entirely correct that young children can find airplanes a frightening and disturbing place. So, then, why are you putting your young children on that plane? Not only is the child’s misbehavior annoying us, but you are, by your own admission, willfully frightening the child because you do not wish to be inconvenienced by not going on the airplane.

              • trujunglist says:

                @ktjamm:

                I disagree that most people do that well. Most people do not do that well. Do you know how often little kids nearly run into me while I am walking, or run around restaurants and supermarkets completely unsupervised? I’ve almost barreled over kids that were just wandering around apparently and for some reason would up directly in front of me with me having forward momentum and only an inch of room, if that, to stop myself from completely knocking them over. half the time the parents are nowhere to even be seen, let alone offer an apology for their kid. how about the 4 kids running around the pho restaurant screaming at the top of their lungs? my friend asked me “uhhh, where are the parents? those kids are out of control.” and I said “exactly, they’re enjoying their time off! screw everyone else in this place if they can get 30 minutes of peace.”
                that isn’t to say I don’t feel for parents in THIS type of situation, where she has 2 kids and is actively trying to do something about them. but fuck, saying that most people control their kids is total bullshit.

                • ktjamm says:

                  @trujunglist: Those 4 screaming kids draw your focus from the 15 others at the restaurant you don’t see. It’s kind of like racism. You see some stories on the news, maybe even have a bad experience. Suddenly every ethnic person is bad.

                  I don’t let me kids run wild, and I notice when other parents do as well. But EVERYBODY notices when parents don’t do their job.

                • lbell says:

                  @trujunglist:
                  I agree wholeheartedly. I believe the majority of parents don’t do their parenting job as well as they could/should. There’s too much of the old “that’s what boys do” or “they’re just kids, what do you expect?” used as an excuse for parents letting their kids do whatever they please. Any kid, boy or girl, will act like an animal if you let them and don’t give them any boundaries. So many parents feel their kids can do no wrong and expect everyone else to feel the same. It’s a shame, because it gives kids a bad rep, when it’s really the parents fault. 2 year olds do not know better, but their parents should!
                  To the actual subject of the article, I think they should have been offered a full refund, if only for public relations sake.

              • gtrgod01 says:

                @ktjamm: Your voice of reason will be forever lost in a sea of childless “parents” that all seem to know how an actual parent needs to control their child all the while never intending on having one themselves….and some of the excuses they give for not wanting kids are pretty f-ing retarded.

                The amount of 20-something, self-centered, “I know everything because i just got out of college”, how dare you annoy me-ness of this site is really pretty thick at times.

              • magstheaxe says:

                @ktjamm: “So this is what I’m hearing – Those of us with young children should break from society and live in a cave while our young mature.”

                I think it’s less that, and more “Those of us with young children should understand that once children enter our lives, our lifestyles change dramatically and our ability to do some of the things we used to becomes dramatically limited because those things are not necessarily in the best interests of our children. It behooves as parents to recognize that children are still children, and stuff happens, which means we can’t always control our kids. That means that for the sake of our children, we have to avoid situations full of loud noises, unfamiliar people, and lots of stress, since young children don’t have the restraints adults do, and are likely to react to that stress by crying or acting out.”

            • Radi0logy says:

              @soundreasoning: amen brotha

          • shadowkahn says:

            @puddinhead: We’re not telling you how to raise your children. We’re telling you that we are sure your children are lovely little creatures who will all be President one day, but for right now, they’re loud, screaming, obnoxious noisemakers and you do not have the right to inflict them on us. If children are, as you say, that uncontrollable, then they should not be stuck on an airplane. YOU chose to have the child. YOU should therefore bear the brunt of the inconveniences thereof, not us. If your kid can’t behave themselves on an airplane, then put them in your car and drive.

      • Cupajo says:

        @cabjf: The problem is that too many lazy parents use that “kid’s aren’t robots” line as justification for not f*cking disciplining them.

      • vastrightwing says:

        @cabjf: I nod my head in approval.

    • zerj says:

      @hunter3742:

      You obviously don’t have kids :) I wouldn’t want to take my 2 and 4 yr old on a flight without my 2x parents. The problem for them is usually the 45 minutes sitting on the Tarmac. Letting people with parents board the plane first is probably the biggest mistake you could make.

      • PermanentStar says:

        @zerj:

        “Letting people with parents board the plane first is probably the biggest mistake you could make.”

        Not nitpicking grammar/typos here, as I could tell what you were trying to say, but the typo did make me smile b/c I was picturing a youngish adult with an unruly elderly couple in tow kicking and screaming and throwing their false teeth and walkers.

    • kateblack says:

      @hunter3742: I wish the news story had mentioned how long this went on and whether or not the cabin crew did anything to help calm the situation before putting them off the plane.

      Without that kind of info, no one can form a valid opinion on this — they’d just be projecting bias from previous known cases.

      • pecan 3.14159265 says:

        @kateblack: The news story quoted her as saying that it was only a few minutes. There was no mention of whether a crew had tried to help, only a crew member approaching her and asking her to leave.

      • DavidF says:

        @kateblack: FINALLY a voice of reason! Well put!
        Damn people are so eager to jump on the bandwagon.. ANY bandwagon without knowing exactly what happened.
        Taking sides on something like this without knowing all the facts is idiotic.
        Some of you want to argue this way or that, but you weren’t there. You don’t know all the facts. All you know is what one story said.
        And you want to try to argue a side? Geez… morons.

    • mm16424 says:

      @hunter3742: Why is this a bad thing? A sterling example of an airline serving the needs of the many at the expense of one person who can’t control their kids.

      We need family sections in restaurants and family only plans.

      • RvLeshrac says:

        @mm16424:

        Best food I’ve ever had in a restaurant was at a small place where the owner/chef didn’t allow children…

        When I was a kid.

        Why’d he let me eat there when he would throw out others? Because I sat there, behaved myself, ate what I ordered, and paid attention to what I was ordering so that I knew I’d eat it.

        There’s nothing quite as irritating in a restaurant as seeing a family with monstrous little children who run around, complain about the food, refuse to eat anything, demand special service (off-menu items), etc.

        Reminds me of that Cosby Show episode where Cliff took the kids to a fine-dining restaurant for burgers. Excepting that where the show had him graciously thanking the server for help trying to please the children and bowing out when it was obvious it wouldn’t work, reality usually has some entitled brats who whine about not getting what they want even after the server has tried as hard as they can to please.

        That’s usually when I start feeling a little bad for their children. At least, I feel bad until one of them runs in front of me when I stand up to go to the restroom and cries when I trip over them like a yappy dog in the kitchen.

    • carbonmade says:

      @winstonthorne: Yes, I love how I can just unplug my child whenever we go out into that cramped, stuffy cabin of life. It’s so nice not bothering anyone.

      • RayonFog says:

        @carbonmade:

        Right, because many here would have you believe that your kids are not in fact human beings. Kids do not have any rights and are expected to operate under the childless’ set of “rules” at all times.

    • MikeGrenade says:

      To everyone who says kids can’t be controlled, give them Dramamine. Whether they get motion sick or not. Dramamine knocks you out cold.

    • Tallanvor says:

      @hunter3742:

      Damn right. I am sick and tired of people who think their kids should be able to cause problems for everyone around them.

      Parents: if you can’t control your children, they’re too young to fly. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing something when a child is having a tantrum or otherwise misbehaving, and if you don’t understand why that makes other people upset, especially on a plane, you are, to put it politely, an idiot.

      • EarlNowak says:

        Have kids? They are unpredictable and don’t fly well? You don’t think they’ll be able to sit still for five hours and may cause an unsafe situation on a plane with hundreds of people on it?

        Drive.

    • cranke says:

      @hntr3742: Y my nt b 2 yrs ld nymr, r 4 yrs ld nymr… bt y’r stll dck.

    • Blueskylaw says:

      @hunter3742:

      And the airline was certain the kids would not be crying on the next flight? At what point does it end?

      For an airline industry that is hurting financially, they certainly have some assinine policies, and as someone that has flown dozens of times, there are certainly worse things that can happen to me than a crying child.

    • theothered says:

      @hunter3742:

      It’s a mixed failure. Yes, the airline should remove unruly passengers no matter their age. But if they are willing to act within normal bounds, the Airline should then place them on the next available flight.

    • milliebug says:

      first off, the credit towards another flight should have been immediatly offered-if it was then it would have been made completely clear that the airlines did that when explaining things to her. Next, she should have recieved a warning, not just a boot. If you have 2 kids by yourself one is just kind of goofing off and the other is crying hysterically, your going to deal with the crying first-thats the most disruptive part during a flight- not a relativley quiet kid who wont buckle his seatbelt.if he was running up and down the aisles while people are trying to get settled thats one thing but if hes on the inside seat squirmming and not listening then thats completely different. I’ve been on flights where the flight attendant will offer assistance if they see a single parent struggling with the kids- sometimes its the please sit down and ill bring u a treat. be realistic people not all children behave-especially in busy environments. and that doesnt mean she wasnt trying to keep her kids in line either @hunter3742:

    • 1kamaz says:

      @hunter3742: @hunter3742:

      People need to recognize that with choosing to have kids, they also chose to accept the responsibility for their behavior. An airline is a private business that presumably has the interests of its customers at heart. If you, as a parent, fail to control your child, even if you do your damndest, a private business is fully within its right to ask you to leave. It’s not like they were kicked off a public property, like a national park, that’s supported by their tax money. If I owned a restaurant, I wouldn’t think twice about showing people with unruly kids the door. Sure, I’d lose one customer, but the remaining people will remember and greatly appreciate your call. This is nothing to feel outraged or even surprised about. How many flights are there a day? I’m sure this type of thing happens more than once each and every single day. In a case like this you should feel lucky to get a refund.

    • bebette says:

      @ktjamm: Here’s the thing – I’m sure thousands of small children board planes and fly every day. Some behave well, others less so, and life goes on. Its actually rare that we hear of a situation so dire that the family is actually removed. Its not as if there’s some ban on children; I think this is reserved for special circumstances. And having seen more than one example of bad kids + bad parenting in my day, I don’t doubt it was deserved.

      I appreciate all the parents who do control their kids, enforce behaviors, and keep them out of places where their presence is inappropriate. And I’m appalled at the ones who let their kids run wild through restaurants and public places making no effective effort to correct them. If you have ever worked in a retail environment, you are already painfully aware of the many parents who do nothing to stop a child from damaging property, endangering themselves and disrupting other customers. It happens all the time. And yes, if those bad parents and their hellions want to act out on my flight, kudos to the captain for putting them out.

    • timsgm1418 says:

      amen, why should all the other passengers, who paid for their ticket, have to put up with her bratty kids?@hunter3742:

  2. craptastico says:

    i love how they say “The airline says it’s their policy not to offer refunds”. how can they just claim that? maybe it’s my policy not to pay for anything. all that being said there’s got to be more to this unruliness to actually be removed from the plane. i’ve been pretty unruly myself and only been moved to another seat.

    • zjmuse says:

      @craptastico: haven’t heard of no refund tickets before? Usually they are the cheap tickets from cheap airlines (which sounds like the case here).

    • floraposte says:

      @craptastico: Heh. I’ve long been a bitter admirer of “policy” as a seemingly incontrovertible way of conveying your whim. “Why do you get to take everything out of my wallet?” “It’s our policy.”

    • madanthony says:

      @craptastico:

      I would imagine there is probably some sort of “terms of service” that one agrees to when they buy the tickets, which probably state, in 3 point legalese, that the airline can remove you and not refund your money.

      It may or may not stand up in court, but in theory both parties have agreed to it, unlike your “I don’t pay for stuff” policy.

    • dreamcatcher2 says:

      @craptastico: When a droid quote a mindless policy at me, I’m always tempted to reply in kind: “It’s my policy to bill, and send to collections if necessary, for any failure to provide services as agreed upon.”

    • Diningbadger says:

      @craptastico: @hunter3742: I agree. She sounded completely irresponsible and immature in the interview. People like to think that her kids were just a tiny bit out of control….let me say, the airlines take a lot of shit about this but it takes a bit more than a crying kid and her brother in his seat for them to toss them off the plane.

      She is part of what I call GENERATION STUPID!

  3. Oranges w/ Cheese says:

    She looks like she’s 16 O_o

    If the airline feels like putting you off of your flight, they shouldn’t make you pay more for the other flight.

    And what kind of a security breach letting the luggage go without the passengers!

  4. gavni says:

    How interesting that the airline kept this lady’s luggage in the hold after she was removed from the flight.

    Isn’t this a very, very big security no-no? Isn’t Allegient in a lot more trouble for this than they would be just for being giant a–hats?

    • winnabago says:

      @gavni:

      If it is done at the airline’s choosing, apparently the TSA is ok with it. The luggage has to be removed in cases where the passenger chooses to take a different flight or misses theirs of their own will. This doesn’t make sense to me, but it seems to be how it’s done. I don’t know what is correct in this case.

      • s73v3r says:

        @winnabago: It seems like it would be pretty easy for someone sinister to put a bag on the flight, get past security, then before boarding the plane, visit either the airport bar or duty free store, get drunk, and be kicked off for being unruly. Meanwhile, my bag is still on the flight, doing whatever I wanted it to do.

    • sirwired says:

      @gavni: Post-9/11 Bag-matching was only required before the TSA/Airlines implemented checked bag screening. Once checked baggage screening was put in place, bag matching was no longer required.

  5. legwork says:

    But that isn’t a real family. There’s no man.

    (Yes, I think that should do it nicely.)

  6. LaLindaSFO says:

    I felt some sympathy for the mother until I watched the clip. She takes no responsibility for her kids’ behavior and has that off-putting sense of entitlement. They were kicked off the flight because the four year old wouldn’t stay in his seat. The airline was within its rights to remove them. Nonrefundable is nonrefundable.

  7. winstonthorne says:

    Attention all inconsiderate parents: keep your spawn in line. Those of us with whom you are sharing the cramped, stuffy cabin of life are not as charmed by the antics of your offspring as you seem to be. Thank you.

    • craptastico says:

      @winstonthorne: luckily you shouldn’t have to worry about this since i doubt you’ll ever find anyone willing to breed with you. believe it or not, kids act up some times. i’m sure you did when you were growing up.

    • mxjohnson says:

      @winstonthorne: I agree that the airline was right to kick them off when the kid refused to stay in his seat. Crediting her the amount she paid towards a future flight seems fair to me.

      That said, the only people who have a right to be so nasty towards children those folks who were born full grown.

    • admiral_stabbin says:

      @winstonthorne: I was flying when I was four, and by that point I had learned that if I was told by my parents to stay in my seat…I stayed in that seat. I have an older brother, and he was perfectly capable of doing the same thing. Maybe we were just exceptionally well behaved children, but I have to seriously doubt that.

      While it’s easy to make the claim that “kids will be kids”, the lack of journalistic integrity from the local news that aired this story makes it hard to do anything but guess (as another commenter has already mentioned). It tells one side of a story, and even showcases the local reporter trying to pull a “gotcha” on the airlines PR person. He was asking loaded questions in a snarky way. I don’t think that’s objective news reporting.

      I hope this mommy finds someone to help her wrangle the youngsters into knowing that it’s not OK to misbehave in public places (which an airplane really is). I also hope she stops using the word “like” so frequently in her conversations.

      It’s bad enough out there with adults that act like her kids…

      • GearheadGeek says:

        @admiral_stabbin: I think it comes from growing up when parents could smack a misbehaving child across the butt without worrying about CPS coming to take their kids away. Besides the threat of painful discipline, I had the feeling that if I didn’t behave in public, my parents would leave me at home. Home (on a rural farm, in the days before all the fun gadgets we have these days) was vastly less interesting.

      • SybilDisobedience says:

        @admiral_stabbin: Amen. My siblings and I were by no means perfect, but – especially when we were in public – we snapped to when our parents told us something. We sat in restaurants and ate like normal people. We filed onto planes and sat down quietly. We didn’t throw ourselves on the floor and have tantrums, or run through a restaurant shrieking and getting underfoot, or stand on the seat on the plane and scream until someone yelled at us. We were not angels. We were properly disciplined kids who had a healthy respect for authority and fear of consequences if we misbehaved.

    • BadHairLife says:

      @winstonthorne: Absolutely. There’s a huge difference between a kid who gets a little whiny, and a kid who won’t stay in the seat. If an adult refuses to stay in their seat, they get arrested. Violently. This was the appropriate solution.

  8. MacMasterShane says:

    There is no reason that everyone on a plane should suffer because a parent can’t handle their children.

    the airline took the right action for the good of all other passengers, and potentially, the safety of the children.

    if the parent can’t keep their children under control enough to handle a flight quietly, drive.

    • Snullbug says:

      @MacMasterShane: Bravo!

      • tonalanswer says:

        @MacMasterShane: Unless you’re talking about physical restraints and gagging, you can’t completely control children, especially in a confined area.

        Any possible coaxing or bribing or conditioning you may attempt can not control completely in all situations unless they are physically restrained.

        Lesson learned: if you can’t control your kids, they don’t deserve the ability to fly or travel internationally. In fact, you should be penalized for even thinking you could make it. It’s not about getting from one place to another in a shorter time, it’s about comfort and silence…

        Bravo!

  9. your new nemesis says:

    Why can’t airlines and airports offer the parents of young children the ability the step off the plane for 5-10 minutes? Seems like a better alternative than just booting them off for usually short lived child issues. After that, if the kids can’t be controlled, then they miss the flight.
    For the record, I have no kids and really don’t even like them, with no plans on having them.
    Also, I liked how they called a roaming 4 year old a “security risk.” Safety; yes, security; no.

    • Franklin Comes Alive! says:

      @skizsrodt: Why should everyone else be delayed *at least* 5-10 minutes because someone’s kids are out of control?

      • Itsatrap says:

        @Franklin Comes Alive!: @cowboyesfan: @dantsea: This wouldn’t necessarily delay the plane – it would depend how close they were to actually leaving the gate. It takes time to fully board the plane and then more time before the plane actually pulls away.

        • your new nemesis says:

          @Itsatrap: Thats what I was trying to get at, and according to the rules, if someone is kicked off the plane their luggage is supposed to go with them. I’ve been on many flights and probably wouldn’t have even noticed if it took a few more minutes to depart.

    • dantsea says:

      @skizsrodt: But the airline’s allowing them to step off the plane, permanently. Sounds perfectly accommodating to me!

    • ascen says:

      @skizsrodt: I disagree for several reasons:
      1) 5-10 minutes x 200 people is a huge amount of time lost, alone my time is expensive, my clients time is expensive, my rate of $300/h means just a 10 minute delay costs me money. Sure, I am on the high end of the scale, but multiply the time across all people.

      2) 10 Minutes could mean a missed connecting flight

      3) 5 Minutes can easily mean a flight misses it’s window. I have been on a flight that missed it’s window because of another passenger and been stuck on the tarmac for 2 hours, unable to offload because all the gates were full. This 2 hours then meant the flight was 2 hours late for the following 6 flights thus meaning a potential 1400 (7 x 200) people being delayed by 2 hours, missed connections etc. The person was booed.

      4) A flight window lost can result in the airline company being fined and charged huge amounts of money – in the tens of thousands.

      5) Flight windows are tight, a plane over heavy used airspace needs to firstly be authorised by the local airspace for a window, then all other airspaces that they traverse though. So, miss the planned window, all following airspace windows need to be recalculated and scheduled. This could mean slightly different routes, which in turn cost money for more petrol. Some of the big planes cost $5000 in petrol to do a full circle just waiting to land. I have been on 14 hour flights that has not been able to depart because airspace on the other side of the world has been full!

      The airline did right, I only wish they do it more often, not necessarily for youngsters but anyone that causes delays.

  10. Scribblenerd says:

    Are there NO parents on this blog??? May you all have twins!

    “Keep your spawn in line”? Really? May you have triplets!

    And may they all be just like you!

  11. fosterb says:

    Is it really such a big deal to provide a cash refund?

  12. ct_price says:

    I think some consumers need to realize that marketers must protect their brand and may be willing to risk destroying their relationship with you in order to preserve the loyalty of others. A terrible flying experience could be more financially devastating than removing the hindrance and dealing with a firestorm of bad PR. I own a business and know that I would rather lose you as customer than anger 100 others whose business I may also lose.

  13. Vanilla5 says:

    I think a lot of this depends on the level of “unrulyness” that these kids were at. 2-year-olds cry and 4-year-olds can be difficult to wrangle and I think there is an expected range of age-related behavior that one would expect from a child when on a plane. However, if these kids crossed that line and were out of hand, then I think the airline was right in this case.

    I was on a plane to Boston a couple of weeks ago and on one side of the aisle was a lady and her husband, on the other side were their 3 kids – all under the age of 11 or so. The parents completely ignored their yelling, seat-kicking, punching each other, and other ridiculous behavior. This should have been put in check by the parents, and if they didn’t – by the flight attendant.

    My brother and I were not “perfect” children (as there is no such thing), but my relatives are quick to tell us how well-behaved we were growing up and I definitely have to thank my parents for that. It’s not impossible to keep them in line. There’s a time and a place to be loud and energetic – a plane ride from AZ to MT is not that time nor that place.

    • 2 replies says:

      @Vanilla5: “I think there is an expected range of age-related behavior that one would expect from a child when on a plane.”

      IMPO, I totally disagree.
      I say, while in public (and especially on a plane), parents should be telling their kids to be on their ABSOLUTE BEST behavior and KEEPING them on it.
      The entitlement complex parents have annoys the hell out of me.
      Poping out a kid doesn’t give anyone more rights over others, it ONLY means they have more RESPONSIBILITY.
      And in this case, the woman failed in her responsibility. It’s not the airline’s responsibility or place to parent her kids. Neither should she be expecting others to put up with the results of her lack of parental responsibility (unruly children).

      I’ve seen parents rile their children up while waiting at the terminal saying “Are you ready to ride on the plane!? It’s like a roller-coaster! Ain’t you Excited!?”
      Then go to feed their kid the McDonalds tarmac food. All resulting in a kid that was not only bouncing off the walls and running around the terminal, but also acting like the flight was going to be some sort of party.

      Plane trips are not meant to be a form of entertainment.

      And many people expect children to be curious. To try to make anything and everything into a game. To play with anything and everything as if it were a toy.
      While this may be acceptable at their home or on a playground, a plane is neither of these things. What if during this ‘acceptable’ behavior the kid decides to play with that cool emergency door latch?
      It needs to be pointed out that there are A LOT of things that a kid can get into on a plane that could cause problems. Not only for himself and the other passengers, but also possibly for future passengers. For example, what if while playing the kid decides to stick gum in the crack for the emergency oxygen mask panel?

      We’ve got to remember that even though decades have gone by since plane/jet travel was first introduced, and even though it has improved as a form of travel over those decades, flying is STILL dangerous.

      A plane is not romper-room.
      Strap your kids in and keep them on their BEST behavior.

      We expect nothing less of the other travelers, so why should parents get carte-blanche for their kids just because of their kid’s age?

      • Vanilla5 says:

        @2 replies by: Uh…we’re actually on the same page. By “expected range of age-related behavior”, I mean more that you’re going to expect a 2 or 4-year-old to be fussy or scared or giggly or playful. They’re kids. Playing with an airplane door does not fall into acceptable behavior, regardless of age.

  14. jhealy86 says:

    I think we have all learned a very important lesson here.

    Drug your kids with robetussin or dimetapp. That way they sleep peacefully through the entire flight and nobody is bothered.

  15. gtrgod01 says:

    Apparently practically everyone who visits consumerist.com are spoiled, only children who have none of their own. If they hear so much as a peep from ANY child they are inconvenienced and there should be a rule prohibiting ANYTHING from bothering them at ANY time!!

    I’m starting to think that these people hate kids more than Best Buy, any of the bailed out banks, or actually everything put together.

    consumerist.com….the place where we rag on business but hate children more.

    • Myrna_Minkoff says:

      @gtrgod01: Way to overgeneralize there, chief. All only children are spoiled?

      Back to the issue at hand: If the child would not sit in his seat, the plane can’t take off. 200 people being detained because of a four year old who won’t listen to the word “no” is more than an inconvenience.

    • mm16424 says:

      @gtrgod01: No one hates the children, just their half-assed parents who can’t be bothered to, you know, actual parent.

      Let little Johnny and Janey punch the seat, shout, and throw food because you can’t be bothered to discipline them, and yet we’re the ones who have to grow up.

      • boxjockey68 says:

        @mm16424: Thing is, it doesn’t sound like the kids were throwing food, shouting, or punching any seats. I’m not sure if anyone is aware of this, babies cry. I know, it’s shocking, but yea, they do. 4 year olds also have a hard time sitting still once in awhile, especially when they are excited. I’m sure the 4 year old doesn’t have too many frequent flyer miles. In this case, it doesn’t even sound like the MOm was given much of a chance to handle it…retarded, she should see a lawyer, PRONTO.

  16. nnj says:

    These issues are complex, and I wasn’t there so I can’t really judge. I feel bad for the kids, but it is the responsibility of the parent(s) to control their kids. If the kid (or anyone) won’t sit down then the plane is not going anywhere. The only options are to have the kid sit/behave, remove the family or cancel the flight.

  17. davidc says:

    While it make take a village …

    The reality is that parents, in today’s day and age, suffer from lack of personal responsibility syndrome.

    Far too often, they expect / demand that other people put up with their kids BAD behavior when that behavior is OBVIOUSLY due to a lack of discipline.

    So … if I raise a pitbull, train it to fight, feed it gun powder to make it mean, I am somehow not responsible when it mauls somebody? Of course I am responsible.

    But if I raise a brat (cause I am too lazy, too weak, too stupid, too whatever) somehow I am not responsible for my kids action? Puh-lease.

    And before you go there, I have a 16 year old that is well on his way to being a responsible adult so I have very little sympathy for lazy / stupid parents.

  18. anonymousryan says:

    Here’s how I see it: she couldn’t keep her child in his seat (I’ve been on enough flights to know they don’t kick off people for crying children), the plane was trying to taxi but couldn’t with the child unrestrained, for the sake of the other passengers the unruly child, his sister, and mother had to be removed, the airline couldn’t resell those seats so if they refunded or offered a credit they’re out the cost of three seats.

  19. NorthJersey says:

    Two words: tranquilizer darts.

  20. tmlfan81 says:

    As the father of two, I can say beyond a shadow of doubt that kids often get restless when left waiting for something. Try taking a kid to see the doctor during the cold and flu season and waiting 45 minutes. (Its worse when they have to go in for shots, etc)

    Kids are honest, and will tell how it is if left unchecked. All claims of improper or poor parental skills aside, just about any child is susceptible to a temper tantrum. Anyone with children – shoot, just about anyone that recalls themselves as a child – can vouch for this. It’s just a part of life. And there is no telling when it will happen, however odds are that it will happen at the most inopportune time.

    The parent should have been given time to wrangle the kids and gather her (and the children’s) composure. If they weren’t, it is sad but not surprising. While I’m sure the flight crew and the passengers on board were glad they had to deal with two fewer children with tantrums on board, the mother was far more inconvenienced than what should be considered tolerable by any consumer-minded citizen. If the mother was allotted time to gather her composure and wrangle the kids but couldn’t, then she should have been given another flight out.

    From here, she should have been granted a refund on the spot or had her ticket transfered to another airline. The credit towards a future flight (at that point) meant very little and was more or less a slap in the face.

    When it comes to these sorts of actions, it’s not whether or not the company can or cannot dole out the credit – it is simply a matter of if they want to. They would rather not, take the free advertising they get as a result of the regional / national coverage, and lose a customer for life.

  21. GreatWhiteNorth says:

    As much as I have rarely enjoyed flights with out of control, unhappy, whiny, sick or stinky diapered kids, I don’t think the airline did its best in this situation. I would suggest that all airlines ensure that the behaviour expectations for passengers is clearly and prominently displayed at the time of booking/payment. For passengers under the age of 10 the airline should be reviewing these expectations with the parents/accompanying adults prior to the day of the flight.

    Having kids is a very legitimate activity. We were all kids at some point. Kids will need to travel. If airlines adopt the stance that they have no responsibility to ensure that traveling children and their guardians know how to behave and have strategies to ensure that behaviour we will all suffer.

    In this specific case was the mother not offered early boarding to settle her children prior to other passengers boarding? Were the onboard staff not able to assist her with settling the children? Were there complaints from other passengers? Did the behaviour continue for a long period of time? …

    Some kids are not good candidates for flying and some parents are so poorly skilled they should not be parents, but that is life.

    All said though, I have no desire to repeat the trans Pacific flight to Australia with a poopy diapered kid in the seat behind me again… or fly to the Caribean with screaming brats… or have to wish I could duct tape the devil spawn racing up and down the isle…

  22. doctor_cos wants you to remain calm says:

    I’ve been around more inconsiderate ADULTS on planes. How about we boot your ass off the plane for being unruly, noisy, rude??

    • TakingItSeriously is a Technopile says:

      @doctor_cos: Here here

      And first on the list is that Jerk in the 25th row that puts his shit in the overheat above my seat in row 6

    • flugennock says:

      @doctor_cos: Hell, I’m sure it’s been done — many, many times. As I mentioned in a previous reply, there was one year when my wife and I were flying home from Puerto Vallarta, treated to the spectacle of about five or six drunken Texans all seated towards the back of the plane, decked out in “One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor” t-shirts and those ridiculously huge sombreros, just howling and shouting and cursing and cackling like a bunch of ninnies whenever one of them cracked some awful joke about Mexicans loud enough for the whole plane to hear (including a number of Mexicans who were on the flight).

      To this day, I don’t know how the hell they were allowed on the flight, as they were already obviously, visibly, audibly smashed to the gills when they were boarding. Hell, I remember them causing a ruckus in the goddamn’ departure lounge before we even go on the frickin’ plane. Oh, how I wanted to throw them off the plane — in midair, en route. Luckily, they staggered off at DFW, and we were able to catch up on some sleep on the DFW to DCA (home) leg.

  23. jvanbrecht says:

    You know what, I originally voted for the airline.. but I am changing my mind..

    Yes, kids are unpredictable sometimes getting them to sit still is sometimes hard, especially in cramped confined spaces of the plane.

    At the same time, I remember my own antics as a kid (I was a horrible child), I was loud, I threw tantrums, I ran around, I kicked seats.. you know what my mother, who was single and travelling with 2 children alot (state dep brat, so I flew alot as a child), she bent me over her knee in the plane and beat the shit out of my ass, occasionally she smacked me across the top of my head… there were plenty of disciplinary actions she took, when they were legal years ago, and it worked, the initial shock of being smacked shut me up for a good long while….

    That being said, the problem is discipline, I do not want to derail the thread, and I know every parent has their own ideas of how to discipline children, but guess what, without some fear of repercussions (whether that be corporal, or mental punishment), kids won’t listen, thats a fact, and there is nothing you can do about it because kids these days run straight to social services or their teachers and the parents end up in trouble.. And until a parent has sufficient abilities to discipline their children in a way the child understands, nothing will ever change.

    I do not have kids, for fear they will end up like I was as a kid, and one day I might have them… which means I will probably end up in jail..

    Oh, and I know the difference between punishment, and abuse, so don’t pull the all corporal punishment is abuse crap, because its not, my mother knew where to draw the line.

    So, suck it up for a few hours people, buy ear plugs, close your eyes, wear headphones.. but everyone should be able to travel.

    • Erskine says:

      @jvanbrecht:

      So what if I’m raping your 76 year old mom in the seat next to you? “…suck it up for a few hours people, buy ear plugs, close your eyes, wear headphones.. but everyone should be able to travel.”

      You are obviously a “parent” (quoted to show my contempt for those that spawn but do not act as such).

      • craptastico says:

        @Erskine: not very bright are you? aside from pulling out a ridiculous comparison argument that has nothing to do with the topic on hand, he said pretty clearly that he doesn’t have kids. maybe you should learn reading comprehension before responding to posts.

    • Azuaron says:

      @jvanbrecht: You need to read some developmental psychology books. Punishment, in ANY form, physical or otherwise, should almost never be used. It is highly ineffective in the long run, and will typically lead to the child resenting the punisher, and thus acting out more frequently. Instead, from a very young age, children need to be given POSITIVE reinforcement for good behavior, and the focus should be always be on the correct way of acting.

      You know why you were a horrible child? Because you were frequently punished. Had you been properly rewarded and encouraged for proper behavior, you’d have been a little angel.

      If punishment is necessary, it should be directly related to the consequences of the child’s bad behavior, and often a loss of benefits is more effective than an application of pain or discomfort. For instance, kid won’t stay in his seat on the airplane? First, try the bribe (if you behave, you’ll get ice cream when we get to Montana), and then the threat, (if you don’t behave, you don’t get to watch TV for a month).

      Another problem with physical punishment is it’s actually a reward. Any kind of attention, ANY, is rewarding to a child. Eventually, they’ll start acting out just to get hit, because that’s the kind of attention they’ll know they can get. Punishment that focuses on isolation and a lack of attention, and rewards that focus on positive attention, are always more effective.

      Also, read B. F. Skinner’s thoughts on delayed gratification. It’s essential for children.

      Onward to the actual topic at hand, is your line of reasoning that the airline is at fault because society has created unruly children? Because that’s a very twisted line of reasoning.

      • jvanbrecht says:

        @Azuaron: Actually, my mother tried alternative methods for years, none of them worked, most of my shrinks stated as much. I was just a child with way too much time on my hands and no one to control me. I also grew up in another country, hell in high school I was getting caned on a semi regular basis by the principal.. but by that time I had already realized that the choice between caning and other types of punishment… the caning while painful, only hurt for about 20 or 30 min, and then it was over and done with, and after a while your ass ends up calloused and it does not hurt at all :)

        Removal of privileges in this day and age does not work, we see it all the time, you take away everything they have and they just run off to a friends house, without physical force, there is not way to stop them.

        Yes, from a young age they should be taught the correct ways, but it does not always work. Maybe I do have a twisted sense of reasoning, but hey, we are all products of our environments, and while I was punished in ways many disagree with as a child, these days I am a well integrated member of society with a good paying job, good husband with many quality upstanding members of society as friends, a huge difference from when I was a kid and ran with the wrongish crowd for years.

        But I see all too often, current society raising their children with the TV, giving in, no backbone, no carrying through with threats (whether they be mental, or physical, and I do not advocate abuse, but there is a fine line between abuse and punishment, many cross it).. I guess my view is that the current generation of children have no hope.. a depressing outlook, but it seems that way.

  24. tonsilpool says:

    1) The airline did not provide the agreed service.
    2) The airline refuses to refund money.
    3) Theft by airline.
    4) Sue in small claims court. They probally won’t show up anyway. You win. In any case, let the airline explain to the judge why they took your money and didn’t supply the service in a timely fashion.

    • Azuaron says:

      @tonsilpool: Incorrect.

      When you buy seats on an airplane, it is not the airline’s responsibility to make sure you are in those seats when the plane takes off. It is the airline’s responsibility to make sure the seats are available (they were) and that the plane makes it to its destination on time (it did). Sure, it’s nice if an airline does bends over backwards to get a customer to their destination when the customer messes up, but it is, by no means, their responsibility.

      This being the Consumerist, think about if this situation was reversed. What if she did everything right, and then the airline overbooked the flight and she couldn’t get on. Then she said she’d institute a charge back on her credit card and not pay the airline, but the airline whined about losing the money. Who would have sympathy for the airline? No one.

      We talk about consumer protection all the time, but, you know what? Sometimes the consumer is wrong, and they need to be ejected from the airplane, and it is NOT the airline’s responsibility to cover that loss when the customer breaks the rules.

  25. dumpsterj says:

    im sorry , but the other $100,000 worth of passengers do not want to hear your child go apeshit while they are stuck on the plan with you. If your kids cannot behave long enough to fly in a plane , they dont need to be flown around the country.

  26. Jim Fletcher says:

    To the passengers who got to fly, congratulations.

    After all, it’s considered torture to blast rock music at suspected terrorists. How much worse is a screaming child?

  27. vladthepaler says:

    No question the airline is in the right here. There were, presumably, other passengers on the plane. They should all have to suffer because one lady can’t control her kid? Absolutely not.

  28. Subsound says:

    I don’t think it is two extremes, the kids weren’t demons spewing fire and they weren’t just fidgety…there’s something not being said. Much to my dismay airlines let on many children who are screaming their heads off all the time…just fidgety or fussy would be a damn blessing. On one red eye to Denver there was a flailing screaming kicking monster for 2 hours as his mom knocked back the screwdrivers I could have done without, but he still was right there one row over.

    Of course the mom is going to sit there and say how her little kids are angels who were just fussy as the “Big Bad Airline” is silent. I think the first words are not always the correct ones.

  29. rachaeljean says:

    Kudos to the airline for kicking her off, but she should get a refund.

  30. revmatty says:

    The anti-child comments here are inevitable. I’ve flown with one or more of my kids about a half dozen times. My kids are typical kids. Usually well behaved, but not always. Kind of like adults. We have got them used to the idea that if they’re going to act crazy and disturb people, do so at home, not in public. We have been complemented by restaurant and flight staff on how well our kids behave *in public*.

    With all that being said, I see people on airplanes who start complaining about kids behavior and noise while the kids are still quietly walking down the aisle looking for their seat. The mere existence of a child on their flight ratchets up their annoyed meter and they start projecting all their dislike of children on airplanes in general to this specific child who has thus far done nothing to deserve it. And those people apparently all post here.

  31. macezilla says:

    sorry, but no sympathy from me.

  32. LordofBacon says:

    ::shrug:: The poll is missing an option. What if neither the mom nor the airline is in the right?

  33. FREAKHEAD says:

    As a person who used to travel weekly, I have seen my fair share of cranky, irritated adults at the airport. How can anyone expect a child to be more mature under the same circumstances?

    The whole ordeal for flying is quite a lot to handle for even the most patient among us. You would think we all could be more understanding and accommodating when faced with this situation.

    Have we gotten to the point where its OK to kick woman and children off a plane?

    I have two very well behaved children but I can not promise that after 2 hours at an airport, going through security, taking a tram, running up and down stairs, dragging our luggage, coats, strollers, etc, and getting stuffed on a plane that is loud and cramped that my 2 year old will not cry.

  34. WEGGLES90 says:

    Good.
    I’m sick of bratty kids on airplanes.

  35. ToddMU03 says:

    Airline is inline. If some drunk or belligerent or a person that freaks out gets kicked off (and usually arrested) they don’t get a refund.

  36. justsomeotherguy says:

    Eff her. Maybe if she beat the kid once in a while it wouldnt act like such a putz. I love kids. And I love when kids are being kids. I think kids should be given more freedom to roam, and their rights be protected, and their education opportunities should be vast…. But there is a time when they need to be told ‘sit down and shut up or you are going to be beat with the belt for hours’. If that was my kid I would have pictures of andrea yates and susan smith on the fridge…

  37. TCinIowa says:

    The airline was right.

    If you have kids, and can’t keep them under control, take the bus.

    I don’t have kids, but if I ever do, and I’m become that mom, I’d expect the airline to kick me off the flight as well.

    There’s no different standard for adults, they should kick a great deal more people off the plane than they do.

    Either that or put a yes/no button on every passengers seat with the totals visible at the front of the cabin.

    A simple majority decides who gets to fly, and who gets kicked off. I bet that would make people much more considerate.

  38. bicstick says:

    We made the decision to wait to travel with the kids until we were sure we could make the trip without embarrassing ourselves or putting too much burden on our fellow passengers. It is too bad others do not think about such things.

  39. UrIt says:

    i understand that it is difficult controling/raising a child. but if you can’t control them, don’t have them. it’s as simple as that. because them running around the plane is a safety hazard and disrupts other people’s trips.

  40. RalphyNader says:

    So we aren’t going to give you the service that you have paid for. And we won’t give you another ticket. And we won’t give you your money back. Yeah, that sounds totally fair.

    I’m going to open a gas station with this policy.
    ME “Sorry bud, you are talking on your cell phone. I’m gonna have to ask you to get in the back of the line.”
    Schmuck “What, I already paid you $40.”
    ME “Sorry no refunds, it’s policy.”
    Schmuck “That’s BS”
    ME “OK I’ll give you a credit for your next tank of gas”
    Schmuck “Fine how much?”
    ME “Your next tank of gas wil be…..$35″
    Schmuck “WTF?”

    • Azuaron says:

      @RalphyNader: Except at a gas station you’re paying for a product, the gas. With an airline you’re paying for seats, and it’s not the airline’s responsibility to make sure you’re in those seats. It’s their responsibility to make sure the seats are open (they were) and the airplane gets to its destination on time (it did, and probably only because she was kicked off). It would be like violating a sports stadium’s rules, getting thrown out during warmup, and asking for a refund. You’ll be told, “Um, no. Go away.”

  41. Jo0liekitty says:

    I cringe when I see those small things mosey on to a plane. But generally, I slap on the headphones and blast – I’m usually not bothered. I even wear my headphones through take off and landings, even when they say not to.
    I just advise everyone else to do the same thing… bad parenting and overpopulation aside.
    I have more backstory comments about this woman’s situation but that’s not the point.

  42. Span_Wolf says:

    The airline has the right to remove people from the plane, but I don’t think they have the right to say, thanks for the free money better luck next time.. no refunds! If I were here, I’d do a charge back on my credit card.

    • Ilovegnomes says:

      @Span_Wolf: I agree with you. The service that they are offering is more than just the ability to sit in a seat. It is the ability to travel from one destination to another. The service was not provided and the contractual agreement was broken.

      I would like to hear from a contract lawyer about if the terms of a contract are broken, what is the law when it comes to giving refunds. Getting to keep 100% of the money does not seem fair (even if they offered her a credit).

  43. Kris123 says:

    CONTROL YOUR KIDS!

  44. docrice says:

    Difficult one to answer – it depends on how unruly the kid was. I think the airline was within their right to remove her if he was being really bad. If they did that, I can’t really say if she’s entitled to a refund, because they can’t sell her seats now, and it might even be too late for a standby passenger to take them, so if she got a refund, the airline would be out that money.

    If I were the airline, I’d refund $800 of her money and send her packing.

  45. SoCalGNX says:

    I would be willing to fly this company. I am sick of breeders who can breed but don’t take any responsibility afterwards.

  46. henrygates says:

    I wonder how many people complaining about screaming kids around them are the same ones lighting up a stinky cigarette in public and whining about their right to smoke.

  47. uclajd says:

    Great, I will now fly this airline. Bratty, screaming kids is reason alone to pay the first class premium.

    Airlines need “adult class.” I’d pay extra for that.

  48. TerpBE says:

    The plane was going to Billings, MT. She should be thanking the airline.

  49. XTC46 says:

    I think i’m a pretty reasonable person. I have no kids (im 24) but have siblings that are 12 and 14 years younger than me, as well as an older sibling. I hate listening to kids cry, its loud, and its annoying. That being said, I also know it happens. I fly alot, and if a kid is crying, yea its annoying, but as long as the kid is just crying, and its a young kid (like 2-3 or younger)Ill deal with it. I also understand that kids can get restless and move around and be loud, hell I do that.

    But if you are traveling with 2 kids that age, you better have them very well behaved. Controlling to kids like that is a chore in the best cases, but when both are being pain, if you cant control them, you cant be on an airplane. You are then an annoyance and a hazard and should be removed.

    I also resent being told that kids have rights and blah blah blah. Like all things else, your rights end, where mine start. I have the right to not be inconvienced by you. If your kid is kicking my chair, you will make him stop, if he is screaming in my ear, you will make him stop or move him away.

  50. PickyPatron says:

    I don’t think it’s possible to judge without actually witnessing the situation. I have seen parents who really make no effort to control or discipline their kids. Once a boy who was about four and his mother were sitting in front of me on a bus, and the boy turned around and spit on me. The mother saw it, and she laughed. Laughed. There is absolutely no excuse for that kind (or lack) of parenting.

    On the other hand, I have also seen the frazzled mother with a screaming baby and a rambunctious toddler, the mother trying her best to wrangle in her kids but you can tell by looking at her that it’s “just one of those days” and she looks like she might break down in tears herself, and all anyone does is give her and her children dirty looks.

    Considering the fact that the woman in this article was dealing with a crying infant, I’m guessing she was probably in the latter category, and the flight attendants should have done something to help her (if they didn’t) before kicking her off the plane.

    Many of you say that it isn’t the responsibility of the flight attendant to help someone with their children, but I would argue that it is. The primary jobs of a flight attendant are (1) to ensure the safety of the passengers and (2) to ensure the comfort of the passengers. Helping a frazzled mother with her children fulfills both of those responsibilities. Is it the flight attendant’s job to discipline or force the child into his seat? No. But they can certainly offer him a bag of crackers, or some crayons, or try to talk him into his seat while the parent is dealing with their other child. If those things are attempted, and the parent can’t get their children to stop being a safety hazard to the rest of the flight after significant effort on the part of both the parent and the attendant, then the attendant can choose to ask the family to leave.

  51. Sian says:

    Kids can’t be controlled?

    Benadryl says otherwise.

    • Ilovegnomes says:

      @Sian: That stuff has the opposite effect on my kids (and many others)! It makes them bounce off the wall instead of making them drowsy.

  52. PølάrβǽЯ says:

    I must side with the airline. Control your kids, people. Especially when you’re inside a plane with a bunch of other people who can’t just get up and leave if they want to get away from you. Have some consideration for others, for crying out loud.

    And yes, I have two kids myself, ages 2 and 5. If I were to take them on a plane, I can guarantee you they’d be better behaved than half of the adults on the flight.

  53. Shaftoe says:

    The airline was within their rights to kick them off but That ticket was paid for to get them to their destination. The airline should live up to their end of the bargin and get em wehre they need to go.

  54. anachro882 says:

    Does Allegiant fly from Austin? If not, how do we lobby them to do so?

  55. LTRS says:

    The airlines have every right not to allow her to fly for whatever reason they want, but they don’t have a right to keep the money!

    If that were the case, airlines could kick half of the passengers off every flight, keep their money, and save a hell of a lot on fuel costs.

    Outrageous, and the Mom is crazy if she doesn’t take them to small claims court. She would win in a heartbeat, regardless of the ridiculous “policy” the airline is citing. Policy is not law.

  56. RayonFog says:

    I flew this airline when they started up over the summer. Let’s just say you get what you pay for. $80 round trip LA to Fargo. “Hiya, Norm. How ya doin’, Margie? How’s the fricasse?”

  57. scouts honor says:

    Well, while the rest of you all were fighting the parenting wars, I read Allegiant’s contract of carriage. It appears that the airline is supposed to refund the fare of a person denied boarding or removed from a plane in situations such as this (i.e. unruly passenger).

    [www.allegiantair.com]

  58. danno5-0 says:

    I totally agree with removing unruly kids from over crowded aircraft; however, they should refund her money. I understand children may “go wild” but the rest of the passengers shouldn’t have to suffer.

  59. bryanpass says:

    I don’t have any sympathy. I fly a lot on business, and constantly have to put up with parents who can’t control their kids. I have long prayed that the airlines I fly would kick of families who aren’t behaving — I’ve seen families fly for a lot less, kids running up the aisles during takeoff, crawling around seats, rooting through the galley, with parents doing nothing more than tsk tsking.

    Besides, she was offered credit. It’s a non-issue, and I agree with the other comments here that say if you can’t control your kids, you have no place on an airplane.

  60. LIJ says:

    Meh, I think those kids and the mom were more disruptive than they are admitting.
    Refund issue aside, i think the airline has the right idea. We have regularly made long flights with both of our kids since they were newborns, 10 years ago.

    Sometimes it took some mental and physical gymnastics to assure proper conduct, not to mention obscene amounts of candy, but we got the job done. A 4 yr old can and should be expected to show enough respect for others and self control for the duration of a flight.

    Even at 2 yrs old, ours respected the family travel law of no whining, and under no circumstances should any of their appendages ever make contact with the seat in front of them. I have seen enough freakishly permissive parenting to take a wild guess at what led to the ouster of this family.

  61. Ronin-Democrat says:

    the holiday season is coming -happens every year surprisingly- so airlines should put a notice up on their sites, at the ticket confirmation page and at the ticket desk about children’s expected behavior.

    a little nyquil will do wonders moms……..

  62. wsupfoo says:

    I understand that children will act up and sometimes you just have to go somewhere with them. But if YOUR children act up, its on you to bear the cost, not the airline. Empty seats are expensive for an airline, they shouldn’t bear the cost of your childrens behavior.

  63. harrier666 says:

    As a somewhat seasoned airline pilot, I can point out kids clear across the airport that will misbehave on planes by taking a quick glance at the parents. Most flight attendants also have this skill. Kids cry, sure, but there is crying, there are nerves, and then there are parents who have no clue how to handle their kids or don’t even try. Or who have never learned to discipline their children. Or worst, the weekend parent that wants to be the cool parent, letting their kids get away with anything.

    I have seen both sides of the coin. Parents with screaming kids, running down the aisles when the seatbelt sign is on and the flight is bumpy, while they listen to their ipod and ignore the kid. I have also had to personally escort a young boy leaving his mom for the first time, going to see his dad, scared half to death of flying. The captain of the earlier fight had kicked him off, this poor tiny boy all alone. He waited alone in the airport (with a gate agent assigned to him) as mom had already gone home and lived quite a distance. But when I got there, I gave him a hug, bought him a 5 dollar stuffed critter from the store, and sat with him until we had to close the cockpit door. He was all smiles when we landed.

  64. TessTalks says:

    Folks the power is always in the public’s hands. Boycott Allegiant Airlines and get them right where it hurts . . . in the wallet.

  65. Bodgy says:

    Why aren’t the misbehaving children ever kicked off of the planes I’m on?!

  66. wilburinla says:

    No sympathy here. It’s just one case of self-absorbed people thinking that their spawn are so special that their disturbing behavior should be tolerated by others. By response is to stay home until your children are old enough to travel with disturbing others.

  67. dancing_bear says:

    Hey you, riding in coach, yeah you without kids:

    The lavatory on this plane has no changing table, my kid has soiled his pants and is screaming. You are damn right I am changing the diaper right here and now in this seat that I had to pay for. Do you think I am happy listenting to you bitch while I try and get a poop filled diaper in a barf bag?

    Shut the f()|< up, while I do what I have to do. Fly first class next time a$$h0le.

    • cromartie says:

      @dancing_bear: And people like you are the reason I fly first class. If I wanted to smell baby shit I’d procreate.

      (Of course, not procreating is also a large part of the reason I can afford to fly first class.)

      • dancing_bear says:

        @cromartie:

        I understand completely. If I had an option, I would have enjoyed taking it. Would you rather smell crap and have a baby scream for the entire flight, or smell lots of crap for five minutes and have the baby shut up?

        It should be noted the flight attendants were zero help, I could not do the dirty work in the galley, they would not take the barf bag when I was done (puke is ok, but not baby shit?).

        Short of this anecdote, my kids know how to behave on car trips, airplane rides, restaurants and in profesionals’ offices. I don’t know why it is so hard for some parents to train their kids, I think half the time the parents are failures, the other half the kids are simply not suitable for public exposure, regardless of parenting skills.

  68. grammammv says:

    She knew she was going to fly. Why had she not prepared BOTH OF HER KIDS (a 2 year old is not 6 months old – they understand instructions) by “practicing” sitting q

  69. ZukeZuke says:

    And this is why I always bring earplugs for airline trips. Screaming and/or crying kids during a 5 hour trip is one way to make passengers lose all shred of sanity.

    Control your kids, people! Have a little consideration for others around you. I don’t care about your excuses either, the world does not center around nor should be expected to cater to you and your spawn.

    I find many parents use the very nature of kids as an excuse for why they do all kinds of crap from screaming/pouting in stores, to running around tables in restaurants, to pulling merchandise off shelves/racks in stores, eating unpaid-for food in the grocery store, etc. This is B.S. My mom woulda given me a spanking of the Ages if I pulled half the crap kids do nowadays.

  70. sixidahos says:

    I understand being a young parent is tough. What’s tougher is being a passenger on a plane once with a crying baby in front of me and an annoying child behind me who kicked the back of my seat at least every 5 minutes for an hour and a half.
    A good rule of thumb is…if your kids can’t reasonably behave in the grocery store, they’re not ready for a plane.

  71. nprfreak says:

    It’s clear to me that most posters are not familiar with Allegiant Air. While there is certainly not enough info to know which party was right or wrong, Allegiant is not your average airline.

    They fly between smaller airports and from small airports to select “destinations”. All their flights are non-stop. They do not overbook and offer all their services ala carte. Nothing is free, not even soft drinks. They even charge a fee to pick a seat. In exchange for all this, the airfare itself is dirt cheap.

    One “extra” they offer is flight insurance (flex flight) to protect customers from missed flights, etc. That fee is something like $7 for a round trip or $21 for Mom and two kids. If Mom bought that insurance, a credit toward a future flight is all she is entitled to. If Mom gets a full refund, she’s just driving up airfares for the rest of us taking advantage of this tight margin business model.

    I know about Allegiant because they offer twice weekly flights (Friday and Monday) between the puddle-jumper airport near me and Orlando FL. I’m preparing to take my first flight with them in a couple of weeks: $94 round trip including taxes and airport fees.

  72. Pandemic1444 says:

    I am never in favor of anyone with absolute power. It was their decision to kick her off the plane and their decision to keep her money for a flight she didn’t get.

    I get tired of hearing it’s policy or it’s not policy as an excuse, it’s like saying “because we just don’t want to”, and it’s thievery. Doesn’t the law apply here? If I was to take somebody’s money and give them nothing in return I would be locked up for robbery, but this company gets to just decide they want to keep the woman’s money. That’s bullshit. That woman paid for services and she didn’t get those services, so her money should be refunded. Also, I doubt they would have offered her another flight if she hadn’t made a stink.

    Another flight is useless, it was her birthday and they ruined it because they don’t remember being children — and I wouldn’t want to use their airline again if I was her.

  73. mgeoghan says:

    I have 4 boys all under the age of 9 and if there is one thing I cannot stand it is when another parent does not control their kids whether it be on a plane, in a restaurant, wherever. Not only that, unless it is something urgent like a funeral or a dying relative or something then don’t bring a 2 year old on a plane. It is miserable for the child and they’re going to react as such. You want to fly somewhere for your birthday? So what! Here’s a little secret, sometimes when you are a parent you have to make sacrifices because it isn’t about you anymore. If that means you have to postpone a trip then so be it.

  74. edrebber says:

    There is no requirement to stay in your seat while passengers are boarding and a 2 year old is probably going to cry during the flight at some point.

  75. pennylane100 says:

    It is hard to say who was aT fault, if the kids were really causing a disturbance it was definetely OK to ask them to leave, If the attendant had asked if any juice or snacks would help, that may have calmed them down or they may have just been spoilt little children who had not been taught behavior skills.

    That being said, I think after taking them of the plane, they should have taken off the luggage, if I had thought that was part of the new safety requirements. They also should have given them their money back so the could have booked and possibly get thrown off another airline.

    If you have a hyper child, and sometimes is is not the parents fault as the child may have medical problems, you should visit your doctor who would probably recommend a small dose of benedryl which they often give to children who when admitted to hospital cannot calm down enough to treat.

  76. grammammv says:

    What noone has brought up, at AGE 5 a child can fly alone (or they used to be able to I am not up on the current rules). Many many have, did with no problem several times a year. My children flew at ages 6 months, 18 months, and every year thereafter on a 4 hour flight across country to see grandparents with a change of plane. Likewise my grandchildren flew at age 6 months, 8 months, 2, etc. NEVER did they disrupt the other passengers. As I said before, they knew by age 18 months what was expected and acted accordingly. Prior to that pacifier, cookies, etc. worked.

    • gtrgod01 says:

      @grammammv: …”never did they disrupt the other passengers”….as far as YOU know. I’ll bet if half the crowd on here was on that plane they’d have made something up just to get you kicked off simply for having a child (regardless if the child really was good or not).

      Apparently all the 20-somethings on here were born adults and despise anything younger than themselves…

  77. TechnoDestructo says:

    No mention of whether the crew tried to get the kid to stay in the seat.

    An angry stranger can be a lot more effective than an exasperated parent in those situations.

  78. baristabrawl says:

    If you control your kids at home, they will behave in public. I’m all about free spirits, but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong.

    Blame the parents, they’re bad. If your kids act a fool, you get what you get.

  79. BytheSea says:

    That’s wrong, that’s awful, it’s grievous.

    *snicker*

  80. iron_chef says:

    two words…

    Tranquilizer Gun.

  81. Princess Leela says:

    One has to give the airline the benefit of the doubt that this was a really egregious situation. There are almost always kids on the flight when I travel by air, and on occasion they are bratty (and on a couple of occasions, REEEEALLY bratty), but I’ve never seen anyone get kicked off. That’s because this is a very unusual situation. We only are fooled into thinking it’s not because we’re always READING about it. Airlines aren’t kicking families off flights willy-nilly every day.

    As for the commenters here who appear to think that they are entitled to a completely child-free existence: Isn’t that unrealistic, to say the least? We were all kids once. Would you demand a world free of old people? Or … ahem, people who are not of your race or ethnicity? Unreasonable, no? We were all kids once. If you grew up into an adult who is not a huge “kid person,” then hey, fine. Don’t have any, and don’t choose a job where you have to work with them. But don’t expect that you can move through life with no kids ever even coming into your line of sight. Ridiculous.

    • Rectilinear Propagation says:

      @Princess Leela: We’re not even always reading about it either. We’ve had two stories about it recently but even if you only look at the ‘person was booted from a plane’ stories it’s usually an adult being kicked off for something they themselves did or didn’t do, not a kid. They certainly don’t make up the majority of airline stories on Consumerist.

  82. nstonep says:

    A 4 year old is hardly a security risk, however this is simply a case of kids having kids. Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them…just like dogs.

    The rest of the passengers shouldn’t have to take care of this box wine bitch’s two latchkey kids because she can’t. +1 for the flight crew.

  83. A Penguin On The Telly says:

    I’ll give a little leeway on the behavior of a 2 year old. The 4 year old, none at all. By the age of 4 a child should know how to behave in public. Either way, the airline should have put her on the next flight with no incurred fees. If it happens again, banned for life.

  84. pot_roast says:

    Just wanted to point out that the video is now gone. :|

  85. pdxazn says:

    The airline is right for removed the kids off the plane for their own safety. If the kids can’t stay in their seats, they might get hurt during an unexpected event such as an turbulence.

    The kids should be allowed back on the plane only before the flight time and they have calmed downed or take the next flight.

    The airline should give them a seat on the next available flight, but not a refund because it was not a fault on both side.

  86. ascen says:

    the possible reason for safety is actually very simple, apparently 90% of accidents on a plane occur when the plane is taxiing. a kid running around when it is taxiing to the runway is a major issue.

  87. curmudgeon5 says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: If adults are required to stay in their seats for safety reasons, it doesn’t make sense to make an exception for children. If it’s a safety requirement, it’s a safety requirement. If your children can’t obey it, then yes, you risk not being able to fly with them.

  88. mm16424 says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Take care to control your kids, your supposed to be the parent.

  89. PermanentStar says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:

    4 year olds like to move…right, however, the plane cannot take off with a kid not in his seat, and if he is possibly causing a delay (which of course would have a domino effect on subsequent flights) I agree with removing them.

  90. pdxazn says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Please use your brain… if the kid won’t stay in his seat, he will get hurt during an unexpected event such as a turbulence. That’s a security issue. The airline is correct by remove them off the plane. They should be allowed back on the plane only if the kids are behave and the time is allow.

  91. AI says:

    @NatalieErin: Yeah, kick them off and hand them a voucher for a free equivalent flight. Unless they were so uncooperative that they caused a serious disturbance, if so, keep their money.

  92. morningface says:

    @NatalieErin: agreed! disruptive or unsafe children and their families do not need to be on the airplane. But the airline doesn’t get to just keep their money. They should have re-booked them on the next flight free of charge.

  93. Sudonum says:

    @NatalieErin:
    That’s what I going to say, the airline was within their rights to remove them from the flight. But to try to upcharge them to take another flight is wrong.

  94. curmudgeon5 says:

    @korybing: I think I agree, but on the other hand, you could argue that that was a seat they couldn’t resell, because it was reserved for her. If you look at it that way, the no-refunds policy is slightly more understandable.

  95. JiminyChristmas says:

    @korybing:

    when I was a kid my mom threw all sorts of things at me to keep me in my seat during train rides, like books, sketchbooks to draw in, gameboys, walkmen, etc

    Heh. All my mom every threw at me were dishes and shoes.

  96. ben says:

    @Bahnburner: Entitlement. Yeah, if you purchase plane tickets, you’re entitled to fly, or at the very least, get your money back if the airline decides not to let you fly.

  97. Xerloq says:

    @AirIntake: You’ve missed the point.

    You’re an adult, you know the consequence of your behavior. You get sloshing drunk, you know that you’ll get kicked off the plane.

    A baby’s natural reaction to a stressful situation is to cry. Babies can’t control that, nor can they predict the consequence. Four-year-olds have similar reactions.

    Part of being an ‘adult’ is the ability to control your actions and reactions.

    Yet you want to justify adult’s bad behavior by putting them on a morally equivalent level with a child? That’s just wrong.

  98. craptastico says:

    @Corporate_guy: but what’s the difference between her flying the later flight or the original one? it’s not like her kids are going to mature over a few hours. they’ll just act the same on the next flight.

  99. SonicMan says:

    @coren: How do you know that, How do you know that this flight was not overbooked? maybee they did fill it up when they left.

  100. pecan 3.14159265 says:

    @craptastico: That’s a good point.

    @s73v3r: Where are you getting this info? I watched the whole video and I don’t think at any point did anyone say the four year old was running around. Everyone just said that he was out of his seat. That doesn’t mean running around.

  101. soloudinhere says:

    @pecan 3.14159265: It doesn’t matter if you can fit a bull elephant in there, the plane cannot taxi until all passengers, including the 4 year old who is “just being a kid” are seated. Nobody goes anywhere until the kid sits his butt down and buckles his seatbelt, and I imagine that is the root of the problem.

  102. treimel says:

    @pecan 3.14159265:

    Yes, actually, abiding by the uniformned crew members’s judgment as to what constitutes unacceptable behavior is precisely what you agree to in buying a ticket. The bare fact that the cre members’ judgment is solely theirs, and not subject to appeal does not make it arbitrary.

  103. gtrgod01 says:

    @AirIntake: ….keep going. You’re proving my point…

  104. coren says:

    @SonicMan: I don’t, but I was responding to crumudgeon’s point that they couldn’t resell it – which is true, they didn’t have the opportunity to in those like, five or ten minutes or whatever. It may have been oversold, but those are seats that are sold already (but I wasn’t really making the argument they couldn’t, just responding to that if it were the case)

  105. Xerloq says:

    @curmudgeon5: I didn’t miss that aspect, I was specifically ignoring it. There’s not enough info from the story to determine if there was a safety risk.

    I want to know was what exactly the four year old was doing and what saftey risk it posed. “Wouldn’t stay in his seat” is too vague to make a judgment. The airline would be made to explain if an adult were removed from the plane on such a vague charge.

    My point is that an adults annoyance with children is not an excuse to act childishly, as many commenters here do when we get these types of stories.

  106. Orv says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Parents should be realistic about what their kids can handle. If they can’t take a plane flight, don’t take them on the plane. If they can’t be quiet during a movie, don’t take them to the movies. If they can’t eat in a restaurant without running all over the place and throwing food, don’t take them to a nice restaurant.

  107. iammoses says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:
    When I was little and if I was bad in public I would get a small spank, and if I was still bad I would get the belt when we got home. I think I turned out okay as a human.

  108. LadyTL says:

    @dantsea: Except airlines have been throwing people off flihts for any minor thing that bothers the crew. Remember the woman with a kid that was making some noise and they threw her off too. [consumerist.com]

  109. nbs2 says:

    @dantsea: I’m going to side with pecan on this one. Whether a hardened flight crew bounces you for looking at them funny or lets you get away with anything short of murder varies immensely.

    The ability of a kid to handle a flight will vary from moment to moment, just as it will for an adult. I average three leisure roundtrips a year, and have days that I am cranky. I told an AF FA what I thought of her countrymen because she wanted me to move my bad knee from a bulkhead aisle to a rear middle. Yet, most flights, I disembark with nothing but smiles and laughter.

    Finally, most folks don’t want kids to fly until they can “handle” it. What about folks with a fear of flying – should we ban them? And how does a kid learn to handle flying without actually earning BIS miles? My kid knows that as soon as we step on a plane she goes to 5F. She waits for the car seat to be buckled, and then hops in. But, she wasn’t always like that. And yet, even she had a bad day. Why? Because when you arrive early, only to have your flight delayed, it will screw with your schedule.

  110. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @pecan 3.14159265: Oh hell yeah. My kid doesn’t always listen. And if she was shouting on a plane, being kicked off would be inappropriate.

    But if she was getting out of her seat, that could put her and other passengers in danger. At that point, I as the parent must intervene for the safety of everyone, and if I fail to – either by lack of effort or lack of ability – then it does become the right of other authority figures to step in and work to the safety of all.

    My kid used to wander off in stores too, until she realized that she gets one warning and after that, we leave the store. That was a right royal pain in the ass for me sometimes, but safety is more important than shopping.

    Today at Hobby Lobby she asked to not have to ride in the cart. I said okay, as long as she stayed in good behaviour and didn’t wander off (or push/pull the cart too fast since I was leaning on it because of my bad foot). She totally respected that because in the past, when she hasn’t, I’ve removed the privilege she’s asked for very quickly.

    If she was in a mood to not listen, I probably wouldn’t have gone there at all even though I really needed the yarn for a friend’s birthday present for next week.

    Right now she’s getting to do beading at the same time as watching TV because she has behaved so well all morning, and I make sure to tell her that.

    No offense to your friend, but she just taught her kid that not listening pays off because he still got to be out. He now has the power because he knows he doesn’t have to listen to anything she says. And if she punished him after the fact and he’s younger than 5, his brain is most likely incapable of fully linking the punishment to the crime and he still won’t have learned.

  111. Barbobaggins says:

    @pecan 3.14159265: Exactly, some kids need to push boundaries, it’s an unfortunately normal stage of development, and they don’t exactly discriminate on whether it is a good time or place. Considering how many children fly each year airlines seem to have a rather ham handed way of dealing with it.

    I was on a transatlantic flight sitting next to a similar child who just had to defy her mother constantly. With no other choice but air travel, the mother brought toys, books, games, food, everything but a tranquilizer gun and had arranged to have the seats next to the window so she could box the child in if she did start to make a fuss. But the airline changed her and her child’s seats to the very middle row of the plane at the gate and the attendants wouldn’t let her switch even with volunteered seats. Coupled with the fact that the padding of the seat under the child routinely slipped of its frame so she would repeatably fall on the floor, the child acted up and tried to run about the cabin for three hours after the flight took-off despite everything the mother did to prevent it and because of her location multiple people were affected. The child would simply wait until the mother turned her head and off came the seat belt and a renewed attempt to wiggle away.

    I didn’t think for a moment that it was the fault of bad parenting or discipline, I thought it was a good example of bad policy. Considering how infamous children on planes are why can’t the safety belts on planes come with child-proof modifications and allow seating be arranged so the disruption to other passengers be mitigated? If they’re strapped securely in a seat then they can’t run amok then the plane can leave on time, no one needs to have their money refunded and no bad PR from tossing angry parents off planes. Throwing people off is an ill-thought out, temporary solution at best.

  112. Snullbug says:

    @kaceetheconsumer: NO, the kids do not have the RIGHT to be on planes, in family restaurants … etc. These are privately owned businesses and it is entirely up to the owner or his representatives to determine who gets to stay. There is no discrimination in this case, the airline is not saying that no one with children may fly, they are saying that when your children present a huge annoyance and safety hazard it is in their best business and safety interest to kick you and your ill behaved offspring off the flight.

  113. Razor512 says:

    @kaceetheconsumer: keep this in mind, everyone has rights but you cant have a right that denies someone of their right.

    eg if you go to a public place that is suppose to offer peace and quiet and a kid who has the right to be there wont stop disrupting the place then they will be removed.

    everyone has the right to am education but that doesn’t change the fact that if your kid cant control them self, they will be thrown out of the class room.

    most airline rules such as talking on phones have nothing to do with the equipment on the plane, it is to preserve the peace and quietness of the plane. if they allowed phones and everyone started talking on them because there isn’t much else to do, the plane will soon begin to sound like a riot and everyone will be talking over each other, aka no peace and quiet.

  114. Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather says:

    @ben: bye, you wont be missed. I love all the excuses people make. I have been flying since I was about 6 and you never heard a peep out of me. My sister has been flying since she was a baby and never once did she disturb a flight or misbehave, same thing with my brother. We are 3 different people with different personalities that were taught from a very young age how to behave. I don’t buy the line that kids can act up, its called learn to control your kids from day one, before you leave the house. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

  115. zerj says:

    @SkuldChan:

    My kids are normally great in my opinion. However everybody gets cranky me included sitting in one place for 5 hrs. It doesn’t help that you need to have all your means of distraction tucked away for takeoff. All 2 yr olds wear thier emotions on thier sleeves and will let you know about it. For older kids absolutely you can look to the parents but they don’t call them the terrible twos for nothing.

  116. Rachacha says:

    @SkuldChan: To some extent it is the parents, but there are other mitigating factors that come into play, the overal health of the child, and how rested (or tired) the child is at any particular moment.

    I have 2 children, 5yr (girl) and 8yr (boy). Both kids when they were infants and toddlers were relatively well behaved when they were rested, but when they were tired, they would react completely differently. My daughter would snuggle up with mom or dad and fall asleep, my son would try to fight it until he was overtired and then become unbearable.

    As they have gotten older, their attitutes have changed. My daughter will still enjoy snuggling with mom or dad, but if she tries to fight napping she will become overtired and acts as if she is hyperactive (when in reality, she is simply doing anything that she can to stay awake, because if she sat still for 5 seconds she would be out like a light). My son generally now will simply find a comfortable place and fall asleep, but if you wake him up before he is ready to be woken up he turns into an absolute TERROR.

    If the child is sick or not feeling well it can change their entire attitude…generally making them tired.

    Fortunately, most parents know their kids and know exactly how to diffuse a bad situation, but on a plane, those tricks (like taking the child to a corner for time out) may not always be possible, and attitudes may not be predictable because of the additional stress in flying that the parents might feel (that the kids can totally detect).

  117. RvLeshrac says:

    @SkuldChan:

    THIS.

    I have an aunt with kids and an uncle with kids. The aunt’s kids are polite and well-behaved, while the uncle’s kids are whining brats.

    Now, both of them were raised by the same parents (obviously), and both of them are equally accomplished, have the same social outlook, etc. Which means the other parent in each case, naturally, has an effect.

    On the one side, we have a husband who stands in unison with the wife whenever there’s a problem. On the other, we have a wife who immediately takes the opposing position.

    Hrm….

  118. bluesdance says:

    @SkuldChan: No.

  119. curmudgeon5 says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Actually, they do and have removed adults from the plane when they wouldn’t sit down prior to take-off. It’s a safety rule.

  120. formergr says:

    @Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: “”Wouldn’t stay in his seat” is too vague to make a judgment.”

    “Wouldn’t stay in his seat” IS the safety issue, you don’t need to know anything more than that. FAA regulations prevent a plane from leaving a gate to taxi onto the runway if ANYONE is not sitting in their seat, buckled in, with seat back and tray tables in an upright position. This is not an arbitrary airline policy; it’s FAA-wide regulations.

    So whether the person who is not buckled in is 4 or 44 years old, and whether he’s not seated because he’s a child who hasn’t learned to listen, is a sloshed grownup, or is having a psychotic breakdown, the plane can’t leave the gate. That can cause a pretty quick ripple effect of delays (i.e. the plane can lose its takeoff slot with only a 10 minute delay, which then turns into a 45 minute delay to get back into the queue).

  121. DangerMouth says:

    @zerj: Probably it’s less about the crying two year old, and more about the ‘running around’ four year old, which is certainly disruptive and potentialy unsafe, rather than merely annoying.

    However, I’d sure like to hear the other side of this story. The mom will certainly not admit to having out of control kids.

  122. axiomatic says:

    @AirIntake: All I know is that I used to have to fly to Thailand at least 4 times a year. During that time, sometimes there were unruly kids, sometimes there weren’t. I accepted it as a part of flying and was able to “tune it out” even when the kids were in the seat right next to me.

    If I can do it, others can as well. Again, man up pansies, stop acting like the precious snowflakes you are accusing these mothers of having as children.

    This argument drives me nuts. sometimes people with unruly kids HAVE to fly. (Funeral, operation etc.)

  123. realserendipity says:

    @pecan 3.14159265:
    The problem with your argument that the airline should have given her time or assistance is that 1.) by giving her time, they are wasting the time of every other passenger on the plane and 2.) the airline is not responsible for keeping the passengers children in line. If she couldnt handle flying alone with two chidren, then she shouldnt have been on a plane.

  124. RogerTheAlien says:

    @Snullbug: +1.

    Additionally, it’s really aggravating when parents assume that people without children must somehow accomodate people WITH children to sometimes-extreme lengths just because some people chose to bring demon-spawn into the world. Why must the child-less always make exceptions for the child-full? People without children, or without children present, have every right to enjoy their flight, just as the parent has some modicum of entitlement to a bit of understanding that children aren’t always well-behaved. But, the vast majority of passengers on a plane are without child (either through logistics or biology), and should not have to endure people who cannot, or perhaps will not control a child, either at the moment, or over the course of said demon spawn’s adolescent years.

  125. Saboth says:

    @pecan 3.14159265:

    I don’t really think it is the airline’s responsibility to control her children. What kind of help did she need? Someone to strap the 4 year old to the seat? Someone to hold her baby while she changed the diaper? Not sure what you expect them to do about it. Physically restrain the 4 year old? I’d think she’d then be suing. The airline can either delay the flight while the situation is dealt with, causing a cascade of missed flights for the rest of the day, and thousands of mad people, or just remove the problem.

  126. Oranges w/ Cheese says:

    @ben: Agree with you there – it appears they are holding it for her as credit, but they should give her the refund for sure.

  127. gtrgod01 says:

    @mm16424: How about you be an adult, put some headphones on and mind your own damn business.

    Unless the kid is kicking YOUR sear or smacking YOU in the forehead it’s none of YOUR damn business because it’s not really causing YOU any problems. Just cause you can see it doesn’t mean it’s causing you a problem.

  128. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @Snullbug: “NO, the kids do not have the RIGHT to be on planes, in family restaurants … etc. These are privately owned businesses and it is entirely up to the owner or his representatives to determine who gets to stay.”

    Not true. There are laws to protect against discrimination in such cases. You can’t hang a “no children” sign on just any restaurant door any more than you can hang a “no black people” sign.

    As for the safety hazard, I agreed with that part, nitwit. Try reading someone’s entire post next time before you spout a bunch of nonsense. And thank you for not reproducing!

  129. treimel says:

    @pecan 3.14159265:

    that’s the whole point–everyone has to be seated and restrained in order to get that far. This woman couldn’t get her precious snowflake that far.

  130. craptastico says:

    @sirwired: how can you say it’s no fault of the airline? they didn’t miss the flight, they were ejected from it. maybe they were right to do it, maybe they weren’t but you can’t say it’s no fault of the airline.

  131. Rectilinear Propagation says:

    The fussy 2-yr-old was a red herring, the real issue was the kid that wouldn’t stay buckled in.

    @sirwired: This

    Since the mom said, ‘a few minutes’ and both the reporter and airline say, ‘would not *stay* seated’ (as opposed to not sitting at all) it sounds like the kid got up several times.

    I would also think that everyone else would have been seated during this or else seated by the time they were asked to get off.

  132. billy says:

    @bunnymare: If your argument is that they have the same rights as adults, shouldn’t they be treated like an adult? If an adult was being disruptive, he’d probably get kicked off too.

  133. rdclark says:

    @bunnymare:

    There are no “rights” without responsibility, bunnymare, and the extent to which children can be responsible is the extent to which they have rights. The shortfall is the responsibility of the parent.

  134. saigumi says:

    @realserendipity:
    1.) by giving her time, they are wasting the time of every other passenger on the plane

    - Does this mean I can just knock over all the tard business people who hold up everyone getting on and off the plane while they stand there taking off their coat, folding it, putting it into the overhead, taking off their suit jacket, folding it, putting that in the overhead, then spending another 5 minutes trying to stuff their overly plump carry-on in the overhead, then pulling out someone elses carry-on to stuff their totebag into the overhead then finally looking around while snapping for the steward to get a pillow and blanket for them before sitting down.

    Seriously, I haven’t been on a flight for the last 5 years that this hasn’t happened.

  135. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: Thanks, but I’ve had plenty of stink eye aimed at me for having my infant/toddler cry in public, which I had no control over.

    When we flew from Vegas to Sydney when my daughter was 21 months old, she cried a few times on that 16 hour flight. I wanted to cry myself. It sucked big time. But I worked really hard to keep her crying to a minimum…I nursed on demand (as always), I bought special toys beforehand to produce as distractions throughout the flight, I stayed up the whole time to entertain her as much as possible, etc. And yet I still got glared at by the woman in the next row when my daughter so much as peeped.

  136. gtrgod01 says:

    @curmudgeon5: Well i’m not sure what else to call the “child haters”. Apparently most on here can’t stand to be near a child that isn’t doped up and practically comatose (see other comments made on this article about drugging kids, jokes or not, it’s still being said with other agreeing).

    There is NO WAY you can honestly look at these comments and NOT think that practically everyone hates kids. Apparently every flyer on here was a model child and as an adult is so self centered that even the smallest infraction of their personal space, auditory canals or range of sight requires that person, or child as it seems, should be removed, parents deemed unfit and permanently banished from society.

  137. Oranges w/ Cheese says:

    @pecan 3.14159265: True, but her attitude can shed light on her whole treatment of the situation. One, she’s going for sensationalism instead of asking the airline for service – though sometimes that helps once it hits the media, it indicates she’s looking for show.
    I’m speaking more toward her attitude in the video. She seems (to me) like she’s extremely immature.

    I agree with all the previous comments on various topics above – kids act out all the time, and there’s very little you can do to control it sometimes. However, your kids should know when you are unhappy and know consequences if you tell them they are in trouble. If they continue to act out, it is the responsibility of the parent to discipline them there an get them in line (threaten privledge removal or something) or get the hell out of dodge and deal with it in private.

    This woman instead feels that it is everyone’s responsibility to deal with her lack of discipline towards her children.

  138. formergr says:

    @kaceetheconsumer: Well said in your last paragraph. You can start teaching kids at around 2 years old that actions have consequences, so by the time they are 4 for the most part they know even better than to try (or on the rare occasions when they do, they are already giving you the side eye to see if you are going to bring on the punishment).

  139. CityGuySailing says:

    @treimel: uhm… yeah – it DOES make it arbitrary. Since there are absolutely NO written guidelines, and even if there were, it is STILL subjective. Little children are NOT robots, and we, as a society, do give them leeway. Those of you without children, or not having had responsibility for children in any case, should just butt out. The airline was in the wrong in this case.

  140. samurailynn says:

    @AirIntake: The news story specifically said she could use the money she paid for that flight toward a different flight.

  141. ktjamm says:

    @mm16424: yeah, cause kids will stop crying on command. Maybe we should slap them around some just to make sure.

    Sometimes Children just need time to be comforted when they are upset.

  142. Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: I never blame the children. The children don’t know nay better. I always blame the parents, always. You are the adult, you are in control at all times. There is never a reason why your child should get the best of you. Too many people want to coddle kids and put them on an adult level and then when they try to discipline them the child does not respect or listen to the parent.

    Sorry but I am an old school type of disciplinarian, even though i don’t have kids I use the same rule with my cat. My cat gets knows by the tone of my voice that she is doing something she shouldn’t be (walking on the tv stand, jumping on the counters, etc) and she stops (with some meow bitching but she still stops). If she does something really bad, like try to run out on the fire escape or is eating something that can harm her she gets her butt spanked. Trust me she doesn’t do it again. I don’t abuse my baby girl and she is the most sweetest, lovable, friendly cat you ever want to meet. She always sleeps with me, she listen to commands, she does not bite or scratch, she loves to comfort me when I am sick or sad and just rub up on me to show me she is happy that I am there. We have a great relationship and I will raise my kids in the same manner. It’s all about balance. That’s the way i was raised and that is the way I will raise my children.

  143. FREAKHEAD says:

    @formergr: I would agree where there are circumstances where people need to be removed and some parents are simply terrible, my comments were more in general and understanding that everyone has bad days and children are not always able to internalize it like us adults.

    I too hate when I have a crying child behind me but I don’t want to kick them off because of it. A crying child does not equal a bad child or terrible parenting.

  144. Orv says:

    @bwcbwc: I think most parents probably have a pretty good idea of whether or not their kid can sit still for a few hours.

    I’ve known parents who avoided certain social situations because they knew their kids weren’t up to it yet. It can be done, and it’s just basic courtesy.

  145. citrusfa says:

    @CityGuySailing: Actually, there are written guidelines, and they can be found in the written code of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those FARs state that an aircraft door cannot be closed (not just aircraft ground movement) until every passenger is seated with their seatbelts fastened. I can go get my flight attendant manual to quote the actual law if you need more confirmation. And yes, I’ve had to remove a mother and her child from my flight, and I hated every minute of it. But if I didn’t, I could have lost my job, and the company would have been hit big time by the FAA.

    Passengers agree to abide by FAA regulations (including crew member instructions) when they purchase a ticket, bottom line.

  146. dkoemans says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: you know a lot about parenting, are you a parent? Two year old’s don’t understand consequence but you must know that already. I don’t have a four year old so I don’t know what they understand. You also mention subjecting everyone to crying. On the grand scheme of terrible things that happen to me a day someone crying in my vicinity doesn’t even really register. Have you encountered many small children that have caused you physical harm? If you have I completely understand your fear. I also am sorry for you parents, assuming you had them, I hope you have apologized to them for crying in their vicinity as well when you were young and causing them some sort of sever detriment. If you merely dislike crying, then i have a laundry list of things I don’t like that are done near me. I’m afraid I no control over those things though including throwing people off of transportation we happen to be sharing.

  147. trujunglist says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.:

    Yeah, I know, but is it really that hard for them to offer a little extra customer support (not service)? Even a bag of peanuts, or heck, even saying “see that little white bag there?” *kid stops crying for a sec* “yeah..” “well, do you know what they’re for??” “no… *sniffle*” “so people can PUKE EWWWWWW!!!” “! really? groosss!” or whatever. I dunno, just these little things make a big difference when you’re dealing with kids.

  148. ben says:

    @craptastico: Yes, because kids consistently act the exact same way every second of every day.

  149. soundreasoning says:

    @ktjamm: Let me say, I notice when your kids are well behaved, many don’t but that’s because being quiet and respectful is the norm, and we tend not to congratulate meeting the threshold of decency. People also get angry at adults who are loud and obnoxious, go figure.

    Anyway not liking fat people or nasal voiced people is not the same. Such voice if quiet does not encroach on your life. Such “fat” person if they request extra space or buy an extra ticket, let’s say, do not encroach on your space. caring or being annoyed otherwise is not reasonable, its bigotry.

    your child actually screaming in a place where I can’t but hear them, is not the same. If the nasal voiced person refuses to be quieter, then you are reasonably annoyed, but then its volume, not nasalness that annoys you reasonably. Your biases are not the same.

  150. mm16424 says:

    @gtrgod01: Lovely attitude. Hope your teach your kids to be rude, incosiderate pricks too.

  151. gtrgod01 says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: So her kids are “asshats” because they were maybe having a bad day…..and you are able to judge that from reading an article that most agree leaves out very important facts.

    ….i guess i was wrong about you having a little more sense than the others.

  152. soloudinhere says:

    @trujunglist: They were sort of trying to get the plane off the ground. Everything is secured for takeoff. If they’re already breaking out the pilot’s wings and the plane hasn’t even left the gate, then it’s gonna be a loooong flight. They can’t really do anything until the plane is in the air and they can’t put the plane in the air until the kid sits his butt down. The flight staff is responsible for safety checks, etc by law, not pacifying a 4 year old with food. That’s MOM’S job.

    As an aside, this is the reason NOT to allow lap children. The 4 year old had their own seat by law, but sometimes it helps to be able to strap down the immobile ones and deal with the mobile ones for five minutes.

  153. soundreasoning says:

    @ktjamm: no one is trying to ostracize you. no one said kids can’t fly. or shouldn’t be allowed in society, or at least I’m not nor have I throughout this conversation. Just that sometimes it will happen, and at those times, take responsibility. Hopefully those times won’t be all day everyday and you can still be in society just fine.
    Geez get a grip. Just because we are critiquing you and suggesting alternatives if you don’t believe your kid can handle on tiny part of interpersonal interaction doesn’t mean that anyone said kids or parents should be banned from society.

  154. Azuaron says:

    @jvanbrecht:

    Removal of privileges does work, you just have to be more creative than they are. Running off to a friend’s house? Ground them. That’s an easy one. And the application of physical force (carrying them kicking and screaming into their room) is different from physical punishment. Further, the backbone of what I said is not the removal of privileges anyway, but the positive reinforcement of good behavior.

    You complain about society raising children on TV, giving in, having no backbone, etc., but that is not only a completely separate issue, but completely against what I actually said. It takes a more involved parent to positively reinforce their child for good behavior than it takes to punish poor behavior, and that is the real reason people don’t want to do it. It’s far easier and takes much less time to smack a kid for acting up than it is to reward a kid for behaving.

    @Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather:

    What you fail to realize is that my “psycho-babble bullshit” is based off of decades of empirical research, case studies, longitudinal observational research, and nationwide surveys. There is far more evidence for positive reinforcement working than “well, this is how my parents did it, and I turned out okay, so it must be right.” You also failed to actually read most of what I said. By using positive reinforcement to encourage good behavior from birth, the kids will continue to practice good behavior on their own without the need of a fear for punishment. Call me in 20 years (so my kids have a chance to grow up) and we’ll compare.

    @mm16424:

    Positive reinforcement is not the same as “give in to whatever the kid says.” You give positive reinforcement for good behavior only and never give in to bad behavior.

  155. Beef Supreme says:

    @axiomatic:

    You would lose. They violated the safety rules, period. The airline at that point has a responsibility to the rest of the passengers on board and their safety. They were removed from the flight.

  156. ben says:

    @Azuaron: If you can’t handle being around kids, why don’t you drive yourself instead of taking public transportation where there are other people around who might not live up to your behavioral expectations?

  157. sirwired says:

    @craptastico: They were ejected from it because her kid prevented the plane from pushing back from the gate. She wasn’t ejected because of some arbitrary whim of the airline. It would have been illegal for the aircraft to push back with the kid unbuckled. That is in no way the airline’s fault, it’s the LAW. One passenger cannot hold a whole flight hostage and expect to receive a refund for doing so. How on earth can this be the airline’s fault?

  158. Azuaron says:

    @ben: It’s not just my behavioral expectations. I like the idea of a voting system.

  159. Orv says:

    @gtrgod01: I’m saying that parents should consider the people around them, instead of copping an “it’s all about me” attitude that they’re entitled to take their kids anywhere regardless of how it affects others.

    There’s a certain air of moral superiority that some people get when they have kids. They suddenly expect all kinds of special treatment just because they’re breeding.

  160. glevkoff says:

    @ben: : “”Society should not be inconvenienced by your choice.” Heh, you realize that without people choosing to have children, there would be no society, right?”

    If that’s the trade-off, then I’d be perfectly ok with having no society and no screaming little brats.

  161. Cupajo says:

    @RayonFog: I fully appreciate that “every situation is defined by a unique set of circumstances”, but frankly when I’m getting ready to take a 6-hours flight and I’m trying to avoid a migraine from someone’s screaming kids, I don’t really give a crap about unique circumstances. I just want peace and quiet. My right to have a restful $400 flight is not trumped by your right to let your kids run wild.

  162. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @Orv: They’re probably allowed to limit the number of people, just as any hall or restaurant or whatever has a maximum capacity that the fire department can set.

    But if they said any number of non-students could come in and only two students at a time, that’s almost certainly discriminatory and they could probably be sued over it.

    Remember, just because someone does something and doesn’t get caught/prosecuted doesn’t make it legal. There are undoubtedly places that do hang up “no black people” signs, although I suspect with harsher language. And they probably live in places where local cops support that kind of thing. Doesn’t make it legal.

  163. trujunglist says:

    @soloudinhere:

    I highly doubt that honestly. sort of trying to get the plane of the ground for an airline = telling everyone to hurry the fuck up and get on, only to wait there for 20 minutes while some VIP gets hurried to the gate. i’ve seen that happen a dozen+ times at least. the term hurry up and wait was never so valid as when applied to airline doublespeak.

  164. gtrgod01 says:

    @glevkoff: Who said i had kids?

  165. Barbobaggins says:

    @Orv: I have yet to see a car seat that a child can quickly finesse their way out of and cars are more far more dangerous than planes and my suggestion was for the same target ages. The strap and buckle could modifications added on individually according to need akin to the lengtheners for obese passengers and could be made so an adult could easily open then in emergencies a child could be quickly set free. Safety regulations already hold that children will be need to be tended to by adults in emergencies, which is why people are instructed to put their masks on first.

  166. Barbobaggins says:

    @Barbobaggins: This is what I get for not sleeping.

    Corrections on the second sentence: “The strap and buckle could be…. open them in emergencies and a…”

    Sorry for that. It’s two in the morning here and I forget all my English coursework at around 1 AM.

  167. gtrgod01 says:

    @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: ……ahhh there is that self-entitled 20-something don’t annoy me attitude again….”totally unacceptable”….like any parent dealing with a crying child really cares what YOU think is acceptable or not (the world doesn’t revolve around you). Their focus is the child, not your overly sensitive ears and your inability to deal with a little kid screaming (again, the world doesn’t revolve around you). If the kid running up and down the aisle isn’t stepping on your feet, bumping into your seat or hindering your immediate travel to the bathroom it’s not your concern. You see, airlines have people that deal with that, they are called flight attendants, let them earn their pay…..so mind your own business and go back to sleep.

    What if I find your attitude “totally unacceptable”….maybe you should not comment here any more…..tell us, how do you feel now?

  168. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @Razor512: The noise of the engines is far louder than most infant cries, especially if you are seated right next to the wing or at the back, and it is sustained through the entire flight on every flight. So I won’t accept any argument that a crying child who is too young to be reasoned with is any worse when it’s been shown that some engine noise gets into the damaging levels.

  169. Radi0logy says:

    @gtrgod01: I’m pretty sure that he feels like me — You are seriously lacking in basic logic skills, and are maybe a little bit slow.

  170. not from around here says:

    @gtrgod01: yo. You seem to have missed the fact that THE FAA says that ANYone not in their seat when required to be in their seat is “totally unacceptable”.

  171. JamieSueAustin says:

    @gtrgod01: AMEN!
    I would really love for some of the childless people (those who are so wonderfully insightful about parent’s lack of discipline) to tell me how they would discipline a tantruming two year old and still retain complete control over a busy four year old?

    You are on an airplane. You have nothing to entertain them with (or you can’t access it), there’s no place to put them in time out or otherwise segregate them, you have no priviledges to revoke… God only gave you two pair of hands and everyone in the entire plane is hemming and hawing and cursing you under their breath.

    What do you do? I’m guessing most would opt for either strangulation, violent beatings, or drugging — all of those things you would call child abuse otherwise. I’m guessing that because every time I read one of these “bad kid on an airplane” stories, a group of people who describe children as demon-spawn and complain about being subjected to them post their endless “parents should discipline their offspring better!” comments without ever offering even ONE suggestion on how to better discipline a child on an airplane.

    I don’t take my son on planes, he’s too young to deal with it and with his disability the experience would be too stressful…BUT if we were moving across country, to another country, had an emergency family situation or funeral to attend to, or some other life altering event I would. I’d do my best to control him, and he’d probably cry — because even though he’s normally a great kid, he’s not perfect. Then all the childless Consumerist readers could come here to talk about what an awful parent I am.

    I lay awake at night praying that I can be half the parent that childless people and childless people with pets are.

  172. Xerloq says:

    @formergr: The plane was still boarding when the family was removed, not trying to take off, taxi or even push back. The spokesperson made no indication of the pilot attempting to move the plane.

    “Wouldn’t stay in his seat” could mean he stood up to get a toy as the flight attendant walked by. That’s a safety issue? Are you saying you’re not allowed to move at all once seated?

    Suppose it were an adult who sat in their seat, buckled in, then remembered their magazine in their carry-on in the overhead compartment. The plane is still boarding, but they stand up to get it just as the flight attendant walks by.

    What would you say if the flight attendant had that adult kicked off the plane without a refund or an explanation other than they “wouldn’t stay in their seat” and were a “safety issue” in this situation?

    No one said that the four year-old causing a disturbance, or that he was in the way. No one said that he stood up to get a toy at the wrong time. Either way you’re making an assumption with second hand information that reveals more your bias than your understanding of the situation.

    @Radi0logy: Absolutely, take responsibility for your children, your pets, and yourself. I find it ridiculous, however, that adults excuse their bad behavior because someone else is behaving worse than they. That type of behavior is infantile.

    These stories and comment threads almost always devolve into a “you control your kid, or I’m gonna lose it” type posts, the irony of which the commenters fail to see.

    It’s sad.

  173. RedwoodFlyer says:

    @Saboth: It’s Allegiant we’re talking about… they pad the hell out of their layovers and their flights are all Base-out city-base so it wouldn’t cause a cascade of anything.

    I’m usually on the side of the airlines – I work at one – and I think giving her the boot was ok… however, a refund should have been given, so time for a chargeback.

  174. gtrgod01 says:

    @harrier666: ….so you, and a select few others on here, are able to determine it was solely about “the kid wouldn’t sit in his seat” based on an incomplete article that leaves out important details. Wouldn’t the title of the article have been “misbehaving kid” instead of “kids”?? It clearly states “kids” and mentions the 2yr old was crying. Apparently crying WAS part of the issue.

    Look, i’ve never once in any of my posts defended or slammed the airline for removing the family. That was a decision they made and that article doesn’t give enough info to form an opinion on if they were correct in doing so. My posts are all aimed at the commentors who all seem to hate kids on planes (not just this article, any on this site that involves a child), regardless of what they are doing.

    This site has a very “mob” mentality about anything that annoys them. A kid cries on a plane annoying one self-centered prick and by the end of the post the kid should of either been kicked off the plane with his (or her) parents shamed for life or the kid is drugged and strapped to the wings. You better watch out, you’re a pilot. Been a lot of stories in the news lately about drunk pilots. By next week you might get slammed on here for being a drunk pilot…

    I’ll bet most that are kid hating on here have never even been on a plane with a truly “unruly” child….

  175. sleze69 says:

    @JilliefromChile: Since when is not flying until the child is old enough “living in a cave?”

    @H3ion: How easy is it for the flight attendants to communicate to the passengers in the case of an emergency when there is a screaming baby drowning out the words of said flight attendant? If a grown man sitting next to you on the plane was screaming for 3 hours straight, would you tolerate it? The why or who isn’t important.

    And as many of you have guessed, I don’t have children yet but I’m working on it. As someone who flies for a living, however, my kids won’t be flying until they are old enough to chew gum at the earliest. That is out of courtesy for my fellow air passengers. If we really need to see a relative several states away, my diesel car gets great mileage.

  176. kexline says:

    @JilliefromChile: Why does “take a car” keep translating into “live in a cave”?

  177. gtrgod01 says:

    @Cpj: Hnstly n n gvs crp f y gt “mgrn” r nt. Tht s YR prblm….nd xctly whr ds t sy tht th $400 flght s gng t b rstfl?? t’s nt htl rm y mrn nd t’s crtnly nt prvt. Y wnt pc nd qt nd th blty t fly wth n ntrrptns, g chrtr yr wn prvt jt. Flyng wth th gnrl pblc sn’t gng t gv y ths thngs.

    t’s mzng t m tht s mny n hr thnk THR rghts trmp ll thrs nd tht ppl frm dffrnt wlks f lf, cntrs, tc…hv t cnfrm t THS jrks d f wht s r s nt ccptbl bhvr n pln jst bcs H’S n t.

  178. PunditGuy says:

    @saigumi: Those people are delaying your ability to sit in your seat. I doubt seriously that any of them delayed the actual take-off time.

  179. soundreasoning says:

    @gtrgod01: First if no one needs to give a crap about Cupajoe’s migraine, then no one needs to give a crap about someone’s kids’ being frightened, or restless, or upset, and therefore, get off the damn plane, without question because your reasons don’t matter and we don’t have to care.

    Anyway its not actually about one person’s migraine, or one parent or child’s “right” to fly. Its about everyone’s reasonable expectation to have a reasonably baseline okay experience out in the world. and if you and your child are the problem, then you and you child take care of it by either getting reasonably quiet, or leaving, so everyone, the guy with the migraine, the woman who is annoyed, the flight attendants can do their job with minimal onstruction, etc., etc.

    Not caring is however not what I’m advocating for. Instead when its gets too much, or you have to make decision that affects the next few hours, like leaving a kid who will possibly be restless and loud for an entire flight, parents need to take their lumps and deal with the consequences.

    PS the rights of the many trump the rights of the few in our society often. Everyone’s right to a baseline experience is more important than the parent and child’s right to subject everyone else to obnoxiousness. I’m not saying every little thing done warrants getting kicked off, but sometimes people (not just kids) are obnoxious enough to get kicked off whether they can control their behavior or not. You get no pass because you are a kid.

    Sincerely,
    A 20 something who thinks about everyone’s rights and just their own familial unit’s rights

  180. Cupajo says:

    @gtrgod01: “It’s not hotel room you moron”…”this jerks idea of what is or is not acceptable behavior”.

    Ah, the rationed and civil response of the shitty parent. That’s an assumption, I admit. I *assume* you have kids based on your rude behavior to me and your personal attacks. As long as we’re going to let this degenerate into personal attacks, try this one on for size. If you do in fact have kids, then it’s quite obvious based on your behavior in this thread that you are very likely doing a lousy job raising them. YOU are what’s wrong with this society and your children are (probably) ill-behaved little monsters who should be forcibly sterilized so they don’t pass this lousy parenting on another generation.

  181. Consumerist-Moderator-Roz says:

    @gtrgod01: Let’s leave personal insults out of this. Thanks.

  182. gtrgod01 says:

    @Cupajo: Something tells me you are just a spoiled little 20-something that is used to getting his (or her) own way a little too much in life.

    Maybe you watch a little too much reality tv….it’s not an Island and you don’t get to vote off who you deem undesirable. The fact of the matter is the only reason Flight attendants started kicking people off planes is because their jobs started to really suck after their management ran the airlines into the ground. Prior to the airlines having financial problems it was almost absolutely unheard of for someone who wasn’t absolutely flat assed drunk to be taken off a plane. Ever notice how poor of service you get on just about any flight? Or how disgruntled practically any flight attendant is?

    ….on the subject of rational responses….you really expect that on a site like this? Childless “parents” telling real parents how to raise their children?

    oh and also for the record…no one has the “right” to fly in peace and quiet. The airline only promises to get you from A to B…that’s it. There is no such thing as your “rights” in this scenario, it’s a made up fantasy you self-centered “all about me” types make up to justify your selfish moronic behavior and comments.

    ….and for the record i have no children. You don’t have any because it would take away from your “me” time looking in the mirror stroking your ego.

  183. Cupajo says:

    @Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Unfortunately, if I show up drunk for my flight they will very likely prevent me from boarding, even though alcohol is a depressant and I will probably just fall asleep in my seat. But some douchenozzle parent who’s too busy chatting on his Bluetooth and watching a movie on his iPhone to control his damned kids will march right up the boarding ramp.

  184. savvy999 says:

    @Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather: you’re seriously comparing raising kids to owning a cat? LOL, that’s some funny shit right there.

  185. korybing says:

    @JiminyChristmas: Oh! My mom threw shoes at me! To be fair I was being an awful little jerk about them and kinda deserved it, but still.

  186. kexline says:

    @kaceetheconsumer: This isn’t in line with the discussion — I’m asking you directly because you sound like a responsible person who might have tried this type of thing.

    Do you think it’s possible to prepare a 2-3 year old for a flight to any degree? Can you go to a food court at noon a few times to acclimate them to noise and crowds? In particular, I’m wondering about teaching them to clear their ears. You can’t practice unless you’ve got mountains nearby, but could you drill the pinch-your-nose-and-blow method for a few weeks prior to the flight?

    I’m childless and pretty damned good at defusing small kids who know and trust me. But I don’t have any experience with preparing for a situation, and I don’t know how much you can realistically do.

  187. shadowkahn says:

    @gtrgod01: “You, again, think you have the “right” to dictate what proper behavior of those around you should be”

    If cupajo doesn’t have that right, then neither do you, and so when Cupajo objects to your (or anyone else’s) obnoxious children, you need to sit down and shut up about it, because you have absolutely no right to tell cupajo how to behave.

    Oh, and you also don’t have the right to tell a passenger to stop screaming in your ear in retaliation for having to listen to your (or anyone else’s) squalling little monsters for the whole flight.

    But something tells me that, since you’ve been railing on cupajo without,by your own reasoning, any right or justification to do so, you’ll also object if someone disturbs YOUR tranquility.

    Which leads us to the only possible conclusion – that being, you are typical of parents (whether you are one or not) who have no regard for anyone’s “rights” but their own, and who object loudly and vociferously when others do things that they don’t like, but who feel no reticence to trample all over the rights, wishes, and tranquility of others.

    Thanks for making that clear to us.

  188. kaceetheconsumer says:

    @kexline: You can try, but I would anticipate failure and then maybe occasionally be pleasantly surprised by success.

    I’d say for most 2 year olds, no way, no how. Maybe some three year olds, if they’re generally inclined to be the kind of kid who is tolerant of new situations.

    But it depends on so many factors…how long is the flight, how many connections, what time of day, how noisy the flight is otherwise, how cramped are the seats, etc.

    A lot of what affects the kid is the emotional state of the parents, so if people are being asshats towards the parents and putting them on the defensive from the start, that increases their stress level and kids pick up on that and react accordingly.

    As for ear-clearing, the pinch-and-blow method doesn’t even work for me. Little does, most of the time. I have a jaw problem that puts pressure on my ears and I walk around half-deaf all the time as a result, but even before that problem came up, I’ve always had trouble clearing my ears. Some people have it easier than others.

    So while you can teach it, it doesn’t mean it’ll work anyway, even if the kid learns it. And most kindergarteners are still having trouble at nose-blowing, so I wouldn’t expect a toddler or preschooler to be able to get it and do it effectively.

    Having the attitude of being able to defuse kids is a good start, because it means you probably approach them from a positive mindset. I know that when I didn’t have kids and travelled, I found that I could make a parent’s life so much easier just by smiling and mugging at their little kids. An adult willing to play a bit of peek a boo from the seat in front can do WONDERS.

    BTW I’m not sure you can teach much at a food court other than food consumption…it can be sensory overload there while an airplane can be boring. Again, different kids react in different ways to different situations.

    I bought my kid a vintage Fisher Price Little People plane before our Oz trip. She loved it and played with it (do not, I repeat, DO NOT fly her airline unless you like being flown upside down and shaken!), but it totally didn’t translate into the real-world experience. Couldn’t stick her head out the window like the Little People can, for one…

  189. Taelech says:

    I have a 15 month old. We fly. There is no problem. One child can be handled properly by one (or two) parents. Planning is involved – this excludes over half of the population. Plan flights around naptimes and engage in activities that will help the tyke nap. Bring toys (the attendants will let you have them out if it keeps the kid quiet.) As for the cabin pressure working on the ears, someone said that there is nothing you can do. When he was younger, on takeoff and landing my wife just nursed him. This kept his jaws working and balanced out the pressure similarly to chewing gum. Now we give him something to eat or play funny-face games with him to get hime to balance out the pressure. He is not always an angel to be around in a plane, but we have had an order of magnitude more compliments than complaints. When people see that you are trying your best to quiet the kid, they cut you some slack… especially if it is working!