Mandatory Binding Arbitration: The Worst Choose Your Own Adventure Ever
Mandatory binding arbitration agreements are bad for consumers for so many reasons that, unless you're the victim of one, it's hard to keep track of the various ways you can be screwed. So we've come up with this helpful illustration: a choose-your-own-adventure-styled trip through the arbitration process.
Your credit card/insurance/utility/cellphone company just screwed you, the new home you just bought is falling apart, a nursing home let your relative wander outside and freeze to death. You've suffered an injury, and you demand justice. You get out the contract you signed and look over it, noticing the clause that says
YOU AGREE THAT ANY DISPUTE ARISING BETWEEN THE PARTIES SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO CONFIDENTIAL ARBITRATION IN A LOCATION CHOSEN BY THE COMPANY. ARBITRATION UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE CONDUCTED UNDER THE RULES OF THE AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION. THE ARBITRATOR'S AWARD SHALL BE BINDING AND MAY BE ENTERED AS A JUDGMENT IN ANY COURT OF COMPETENT JURISDICTION. TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, NO ARBITRATION UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE JOINED TO AN ARBITRATION INVOLVING ANY OTHER PARTY SUBJECT TO THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER THROUGH CLASS ACTION PROCEEDINGS OR OTHERWISE.
You...
File a lawsuit anyway.
Sorry. You're subject to an arbitration agreement, and the court will require that you submit to arbitration.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
Right.
Nope. This is going to be depressing.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
(a)New Jersey.
(b)Connecticut.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
New Jersey.
Actually, the arbitration clause requires that any disputes be arbitrated in Connecticut. Sorry about that.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
(a)Discovery is an important part of dispute resolution and the right to get documents from my adversary is a hallmark of the legal system.
(b)I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
Discovery is an important part of dispute resolution and the right to get documents from my adversary is a hallmark of the legal system.
LOL.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In my favor!
Liar. Recent studies have found that arbitrators rule against consumers between 94-96% of the time. Even if an arbitrator rules in your favor, there's no guarantee that the damages will even cover the cost of arbitration, much less the injury itself. In one case, a consumer sued her brokerage firm after it lost over $280,000 of her money. The arbitration panel ruled in the consumer's favor, awarded her $5,000, and charged her $10,000 in fees.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In the company's favor.
Wa waaa. This is probably not surprising. Unlike judges or juries, arbitrators' services are paid for by the parties. Companies are repeat players in the arbitration game, and they get to decide which arbitrator to use. A company is going to go with the arbitrator that rules in its favor the most. One study found that the ten most frequently used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 1.6% of the time, while the least used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 38% of the time.
This is crap, I'm going to appeal the decision to a real court.
No you're not, because:
(a)In all states but California, there are no records kept of the arbitration, so it's impossible to appeal.
(b)The deference that the Supreme Court has extended to arbitration has meant judges usually won't even overrule unethical or blatantly wrong judgments.
(c)A study of fifty-two arbitration clauses found in typical consumer contracts found that forty of them describe the arbitrator's decision as final or non-appealable, and the five agreements that allowed appeal simply provided for a new arbitration.
(d)All of the above.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In the company's favor.
Wa waaa. This is probably not surprising. Unlike judges or juries, arbitrators' services are paid for by the parties. Companies are repeat players in the arbitration game, and they get to decide which arbitrator to use. A company is going to go with the arbitrator that rules in its favor the most. One study found that the ten most frequently used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 1.6% of the time, while the least used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 38% of the time.
This is crap, I'm going to appeal the decision to a real court.
No you're not, because:
In all states but California, there are no records kept of the arbitration, so it's impossible to appeal.
Yes, but there's more.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In the company's favor.
Wa waaa. This is probably not surprising. Unlike judges or juries, arbitrators' services are paid for by the parties. Companies are repeat players in the arbitration game, and they get to decide which arbitrator to use. A company is going to go with the arbitrator that rules in its favor the most. One study found that the ten most frequently used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 1.6% of the time, while the least used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 38% of the time.
This is crap, I'm going to appeal the decision to a real court.
No you're not, because:
The deference that the Supreme Court has extended to arbitration has meant judges usually won't even overrule unethical or blatantly wrong judgments.
Yes, but there's more.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In the company's favor.
Wa waaa. This is probably not surprising. Unlike judges or juries, arbitrators' services are paid for by the parties. Companies are repeat players in the arbitration game, and they get to decide which arbitrator to use. A company is going to go with the arbitrator that rules in its favor the most. One study found that the ten most frequently used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 1.6% of the time, while the least used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 38% of the time.
This is crap, I'm going to appeal the decision to a real court.
No you're not, because:
A study of fifty-two arbitration clauses that are in typical consumer contracts found that forty of them describe the arbitrator's decision as final or non-appealable, and the only five agreements that allowed appeal simply provided for a new arbitration.
Yes, but there's more.
Submit to arbitration.
Fine you'll use arbitration, it's probably just like going to court, except cheaper, faster, and easier, right?
No, but I have no choice.
Exactly. First, you need to pick a venue. Let's say you live in New Jersey, and the injury occurred in New Jersey. Where would you like this arbitration to take place?
Connecticut.
Even though one of arbitration's supposed advantages is convenience, and even though arbitrations typically occur in a generic conference room, many arbitration clauses require that the dispute be arbitrated in a place that's convenient to the company.
Okay, well whatever. You have to head up to their office anyway, because you need to get copies of some contracts and documents, right?
I totally expected this company to screw me, so I've kept copies of everything and recorded every phone call with them; or I'm just going to make an impassioned plea directly to the arbitrator.
Yeah. Convenience means no subpoenas, no interrogatories, no discovery. One of the reasons companies use arbitration is because it prevents their dirty laundry from being aired (there's also no record kept of the arbitration).
Alright, you're at arbitration. Since you weren't able to get any evidence from the company, your entire case is based on allegations and some pictures you made on MSPaint, except you saved them as bitmaps so they're taking forever to load. The arbitrator is getting impatient and cuts you off. He thinks about it for a couple minutes, and now the arbitrator decides...
In the company's favor.
Wa waaa. This is probably not surprising. Unlike judges or juries, arbitrators' services are paid for by the parties. Companies are repeat players in the arbitration game, and they get to decide which arbitrator to use. A company is going to go with the arbitrator that rules in its favor the most. One study found that the ten most frequently used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 1.6% of the time, while the least used arbitrators decided in favor of consumers 38% of the time.
This is crap, I'm going to appeal the decision to a real court.
No you're not, because:
All of the above.
Exactly. The problem with mandatory binding arbitration agreements, as you've probably noticed from this terrible choose your own adventure, is that there's no choice. You're forced to use a sham proceeding that has no real procedural or judicial protections.
The point that we're making isn't that lawsuits solve everything, or even that all arbitration is bad. What we're attacking are contracts that require you upfront to agree to binding arbitration. If a problem arises and both parties want to arbitrate, that's fine. Even a contract that requires arbitration, but allows litigation if the result is unsatisfactory, is acceptable. The essential component is the choice to arbitrate, or not arbitrate.
(Photos: spi516, navets, and superbomba)
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Comments:
Oh man, I was eaten by a Grue. Just like real arbitration.
All excellent points, but considering you're choice when signing a contract with an arbitration clause (lets say, a major utility company that is the only company providing a service in that area), you are forced into this system. Which inevitably means the only response is legal action... Oh wait, there's another choose your own adventure of endless pointlessness.
Great, our public transit union and the city just went to binding arbitration after a 53 day transit strike.
The taxpayer/consumer gets screwed again.
So if you are handed a paper contract (say from a daycare center) and see this clause, are you allowed to just cross it out and sign it to show that you aren't in agreement with that section?
Well that was fun! I haven't done a "chose my own adventure" since I was a kid! Off to the bookstore...
I would think so. But that also means they are able to decide not to accept your contract (and your child) and you are back to square one.
You can cross something out, but depending on the wording of the contract you may still agree to everything on the page (even that which is crossed out) or they could just refuse service.
Do you think your cell phone company would just let you cross out the two year agreement portion?
@Tiki McTikatron: Both sides have to agree to the change in the contract, so you'd have to cross it out and initial it, and get the day care company to initial as well. You're best off telling them to reprint the contract without the clause or you'll go someplace else. This works best when the company selling is as/more desperate to sell than you are to buy.
we are fighting back - www.arbitrationjustice.com Join the forum and learn how to beat the beast...
@Robert M Getch: Most businesses probably don't even look at the contracts beyond the signature spots. They may not notice. But when do you sign a physical contract for cell phones?
@Tiki McTikatron: You can -- as others have pointed out, have both sides initial it (in, say green ink), and get a copy of the whole thing with their initials and signature. Also check the section on amending the agreement (usually toward the end) and scratch out any part that says you can't scratch out parts of the contract.
AAA arbitration really isn't that bad. The really crappy arbitration terms are in car purchase agreements, where you have to submit to arbitration run by the car industry. Luckily, now is a great time to scratch those out, since car dealers are very hard up for new buyers.
I've been hearing a lot lately about judges ruling mandatory arbitration clauses as unconscionable.
In cases of Union vs Management, depending on the union, arbitration could be helpful in getting the problem resolved quickly and in a lot of cases it is a lot more equal than Massive corporation vs little you. Sometimes the arbitration can be closer to the union than management.
@Tiki McTikatron: My husband and I have an ongoing argument about this (we're both lawyers) ... his stance is if they accept the contract where he's crossed things out and initialed them and still provide him with the service, they've accepted the changes. My stance is that the low-level employee clearly doesn't have the authority to make any changes, so you're better off signing the boilerplate and then alleging the boilerplate is unconscionable and had a flaw in formation because you weren't allowed to dicker terms.
We're super-fun when we renew our cell phone contract!
(Actually, the one that makes me crazy is he actually does a lot of the contract-writing work for a local hospital/health care group ... and whenever he has to SIGN one of their contracts as a patient, he crosses things out like crazy and refuses to sign clauses THAT HE WROTE.)
@ottawa_guy: when it comes to union Vs. management when mediation doesn't work, arbitration is usually the next step. Litigation could take years and with a lot of unions the arbitration proceedings will be equal. One of the main goals on both sides is to get everyone back to work. No one makes money when no one's working.
Ok I nearly wet myself laughing. Too bad it was about a serious problem.
@B: Sir, my ass has fallen off due to my laughing so hard. Please appear for mandatory binding arbitration on the matter of my ass in the Northern Mariana Islands by Tuesday. :)
@Eyebrows McGee: I love the "go back" feature. It's like keeping my thumb on the original page and calling mulligan if I don't like the result.
ok, that was a faaaaantastic post. I gotta say. I loved it. The choose your own adventure style was hilarious. Please feel free to rip this style off again, it was too good.
But for the last part, wouldn't it be more accurate to say instead of "The essential component is the choice to arbitrate, or not arbitrate."
... to say "The essential component is whether you are bound by the decision rendered in arbitration." That seems to be what you're saying in the rest of the article. Arbitration might suck, but as long as it's not binding, you're not completely hosed - you can still go to court, so long as you put forth a good faith effort to come to an agreement.
right? i dunno, i haven't taken any classes that really focus on arbitration. all i know are vague things i learned in civil procedure and contracts.
bind: to tie down
mandatory: made to do by authority, not choice
arbitrary: decided by whim, not logic
mandatory binding arbitration: you're fucked!
@ottawa_guy: Actually union-management disputes are the ideal type of arbitration. Both parties can afford lawyers, both are approximately equal in power, and I think they both have the ability to choose the judge (so it's not just some shyster working for the company full time). It's a lot better than suing or striking.
Corporation-consumer arbitration, where there's a huge power differential, is a scam.
When I worked at HR Block, we were told that a client could sign the contract and then opt out of arbitration by sending a letter within thirty days. It is (was) in their service agreement. If faced with this clause, I will look for the "opt out" method.
I voted Pat Buchanan. The ballot was confusing! :(
OK, that was some kind of awesome. Kudos, Alex!
Although, I was expecting less lawyers and more grue.
@ottawa_guy: I think the difference there is that the "customer" (transit union) is trying to negotiate a NEW contract with the only "business" (the city).
Also it's in the best interests of both parties to get the buses rolling again since there's a massive third party (the people) who want the service running again.
It's a 1:1 thing here. You too would wield supreme power if you were the ONLY customer a business could do business with. Especially if a vested 3rd party was demanding you get back together and not break up immediatly again.
But since in company vs consumer battle, you are one of the faceless millions that they do business with, so your power goes strait into the shitter. And it's unlikely that there's any large third party organisation that's breathing down your collective necks to renew whatever contract you're disputing on.
@Eyebrows McGee: I am not a lawyer, but I have a pretty good handle on contract law from a consulting business I run on the side (engineering graduate student).
My understanding has always been that if a person is representing a company, their actions are those of the company. I don't think being a peon is a valid contractual out. They are acting as a agent of the business and the business is legally liable for all their actions. If they do not have the authority to modify contracts then they would clearly also not have the authority to enter into them.
@Eyebrows McGee: that last part about your husband refusing to sign the entirety of a contract he himself drafted is really funny.
but as to your argument - why not go w/ both? i mean, there's no reason you can't have alternative claims, right? first, the scratched out clauses are not part of the contract, and in the alternative, the clauses are unconscionable?
Better to take multiple swings, right?
(i wonder if you can argue against such contracts of adhesion now. I mean, cell phones have basically become a necessity, and since probably all service providers have the same BS clauses, there's no meaningful choice, right? they're unconscionable. so there's gotta be a way to contest those clauses.)
IANAL so take this for whatever you value it BUT... if said low-level employee is authorized to enter into a contract with you on behalf of the company he works for, doesn't that also give him the authority to enter into a modified boilerplate contract if someone was clever enough to start crossing out clauses?
Yes, I'm siding with your husband on this. If companies don't like it, then they need to stop having flunkies enter into contracts for them and have someone other than a minimum-wage earner just blindly signing paperwork.
@codepage9: I know some people that went on JJ, and it is a similar deal. You agree that you have no other means after the show to appeal or otherwise seek compensation for anything related to the matter. The show pays for any amount awarded to either party, and sometimes even pays a party before going on the show, in order for them to act a certain way. A great recourse for someone in a legal dispute between family members, I suppose, where one can be right, one wrong, and nobody has to pay for it.
@Aristeia: It would seem there would be more training in that area for those employees offering such contracts to be signed, if in fact such exclusions/cross-outs/amendments would hold up. I believe us consumerist readers to be pretty bright folk, but in my humble opinion, we can't be the first to think of this.
Not to mention the parts of the contract which are not on paper for you to sign. Such is the case with cell phone contracts. The paper you sign states that you also agree to a pile of words on the web somewhere. Some stores try to tell you they can't print that for you, or allow you to read it on the store's computers.
@snowburnt: Railroad unions are big on the arbitration gimmick. Just for not showing up for work when I quit, they told me I was required to show up for arbitration [read:punishment]. I just laughed and hung up. The facility manager kept calling me back, but would not let me talk, so I'd hang up again. He even called three times in a row, and again later, when I stopped answering.
Just like you can find an crooked arbitrator, you can find a competent judge that will overrule the arbitration because its unconscionable.
There is a sample letter at credit boards to refuse arbitration is gives a ruling. I used it twice in my credit repair and my neighbor used it also.
All 3 times it worked and never heard another word about it. I guess the cases were two small for real legal action to be worthwhile.
I sold every last one of my CYO Adventure books to pay off some bills...I REALLY regret doing so.
@Todd Fernandez: Not all agents of a given business have the authority to perform all actions for that business. And one need not have the authority to draft a contract to have the ability to offer that contract for signing.
It's also an area of practice (one-sided boilerplate contracts offered to hundreds of thousands of consumers with no one EVER representing the consumers on that side of contract) that has vastly outstripped the traditional contract law. We're still poking boilerplates into the traditional contract framework, but I'm honestly not sure that's appropriate, since they're really very little like a "contract" at all.
@Aristeia: "there's no reason you can't have alternative claims, right?"
Maybe. :) in some jurisdictions, if you show evidence you READ the boilerplate/contract of adhesion -- like that you've marked things out -- then they actually HOLD you to it, whereas if you don't read it, some courts will say you can't be held responsible for the contents of a boilerplate contract since you didn't read it and couldn't have argued with the contents anyway.
But mostly we just like to argue. :)
My God this is awesome.
I had some very tame d&d choose your own adventure book. My momm looked at it and was to stupid to very it out. She said is was satanic. I thoughts adults were morons.
@Eyebrows McGee: that is pretty interesting. yeesh. contract law - not my love, lol.
and, haha, yeah i love to argue, too. future lawyer here :P
@tedyc03: Just save some money and go to Wikipedia. It's almost the same thing. You never know where you'll end up.
@Eyebrows McGee: My mother has a legal and real estate background. When I was in college and after, every lease I ever signed my mother would take one of those old style BLACK markers and mark through sections completely so there was no way they could even be read at all. She'd tell the landlords they could initial those parts and we'd all sign that one or they could do a new one.
Landlords loved me when I walked back in with the lease. They always willing dealt with her issues but fhew, we had NO slack from those folks after we moved in.
Isn't the whole point of a justice system so that people don't form lynch mobs?
This seems counter-productive in that light. Perhaps it's time to return to the basics.
Screw this, time to take them to Judge Judy.