According to the Associated Press, an American Airlines flight was grounded after passengers complained about 6 men who were speaking Arabic. The men had been hired by a company called Defense Training Systems to train Marines at Camp Pendleton.
American Airlines spokesperson Tim Wagner said that local law enforcement was called in to question the men but the TSA did not get involved. He also said that passenger traveling with two small children got into an argument with the men, but declined to say what it was about.
[Dave Stephens from Defense Training Systems] said some passengers complained after hearing the men speak in Arabic, but he declined to elaborate.
“I wish I could say more because I have personal feelings but this is what I’m allowed to say,” he said.
The plane returned to the terminal at 11:26 p.m. and was held overnight because of an 11:30 p.m. curfew at Lindbergh Field. The were 126 passengers booked on the flight.
The flight left San Diego Wednesday morning and arrived in Chicago in the afternoon.
People, let’s try to behave ourselves on the airplane? Shall we?
Plane bound for Chicago held after dispute involving Arabic-speaking men [Chicago Tribune]
(Photo:Kurmbox)
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@nctrnlboy: I get the impression you don’t travel much. Just think of this from a practical standpoint. You pay $500 for a flight to go to your friend’s wedding. Someone on the flight thinks a guy across the aisle is creepy and demands to get off the flight. Pilot returns the plane to the gate and you miss the wedding. Seriously now, you’re okay with that?
@bedofnails: Can you at least try to get your stereotypes right? Orange County is a conservative stronghold, not a “leftist” one.
@nctrnlboy: Its not racist to be “wary” of a group of people who fit a profile of known terrorists.
You are completely right for once, thats bigotry.
Is this what our once-proud nation is reduced to? Jumping at shadows, grounding planes because there are brown people speaking not-English? Giving up our civil liberties in the mistaken belief it’ll make us safer? Thinking that torturing people will do anything at all other than make the world hate us?
The terrorists’ plans are moving along swimmingly… we are all well and truly terrorized.
We have become a nation of wusses. Yes, when a group of Middle Eastern men who share an appearance common with those who attacked the country in he past board a plane, you should be more vigilant. Vigilant as in watchful. If one of them stands up and pulls out a knife, then you freak out. If they just make you uncomfortable because they are having a conversation, then you have the problem. This whole country has some degree of PTSD after 9/11, but this kind of this is just sad.
@andrewsmash: Exactly
@not_seth_brundle:
creepy? Creepy as in “may be a terrorist” creepy, or “may be insane” creepy? (remember the crazy japanese guy who tried to open the outer door on a airliner recently?). Creepy as in “acting odd, or suspicious” creepy? Is my appearance consistant with the possibility of current known terrorists? Is there a hightened sense of awareness because of previous terrorist attacks? Am I in a group of others who look & talk like me (where others cant understand what we are saying)?
I may look like a pedophile when I go to the park & I may be inconvenienced because some overprotective parent calls the cops on me….. but should I blame them in the current fear-mongering environment?
A lot of little things add up. People arent just pointing at random people & screaming “TERRORIST!!!!!” or “PEDOPHILE!!!”
and if you think the parents are bad… cops are much worse when there is any suspicion/accusation that you might be a pedophile crusin for itty bitty titty or teeny weeny peeny in their town’s park.
ANd I DO travel. Even though I am white as a sheet I still try not to stand out or bring attention to myself. I know not to say anything like “bomb” in an airport, just like groups of middleasterners flying shouldnt be bringing any attention to themselves on a flight in todays hieghtened terrorist awareness these days.
I actually DO feel sorry for middle-eastern looking people trying to live their lives (in this country) with the “muslim terrorist” suspicion hanging over their heads. Its not right, but as with life… a lot of things arent right. Governments need to protect their people, just like parents need to protect their kids.
@not_seth_brundle:
creepy? Creepy as in “may be a terrorist” creepy, or “may be insane” creepy? (remember the crazy japanese guy who tried to open the outer door on a airliner recently?). Creepy as in “acting odd, or suspicious” creepy? Is my appearance consistant with the possibility of current known terrorists? Is there a hightened sense of awareness because of previous terrorist attacks? Am I in a group of others who look & talk like me (where others cant understand what we are saying)?
I may look like a pedophile when I go to the park & I may be inconvenienced because some overprotective parent calls the cops on me….. but should I blame them in the current fear-mongering environment?
A lot of little things add up. People arent just pointing at random people & screaming “TERRORIST!!!!!” or “PEDOPHILE!!!”
and if you think the parents are bad… cops are much worse when there is any suspicion/accusation that you might be a pedophile crusin for itty bitty titty or teeny weeny peeny in their town’s park.
ANd I DO travel. Even though I am white as a sheet I still try not to stand out or bring attention to myself. I know not to say anything like “bomb” in an airport, just like groups of middleasterners flying shouldnt be bringing any attention to themselves on a flight in todays hieghtened terrorist awareness these days.
I actually DO feel sorry for middle-eastern looking people trying to live their lives (in this country) with the “muslim terrorist” suspicion hanging over their heads. Its not right, but as with life… a lot of things arent right. Governments need to protect their people, just like parents need to protect their kids.
@Egakino:
well then, I guess I’d be bigotted against red-headed groups of white guys in train stations then. *shrug*
I may look like a pedophile when I go to the park & I may be inconvenienced because some overprotective parent calls the cops on me….. but should I blame them in the current fear-mongering environment?
Yes, yes you should. The use of a “current fear-mongering environment” is inexcusable when you are talking about basic rights as a human being.
@nctrnlboy: You are free to be racist but you should acknowledge it. Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of racism. Arab is a race.
You are saying, because they are from a particular ethic group they are more likely to commit terrorism. That is the very definition of racism. Your belief, prejudice, is that Arabs, a race, are inclined to be terrorists.
Is it your right, in America, to be “wary” of people with red hats? Sure. People were pretty “wary” of black people in this country not long ago and it was acceptable too, even legal. In this country, you are even free to preach your ignorance. However, once you start infringing on the rights of those people you hold prejudices against, thats when there is a problem.
This woman crossed that line when she decided that she was in mortal danger due to the race and language of them men beside her, her prejudice. AA was also wrong in accepting this as valid evidence. Due to her ignorance, and at no fault, listed in the article, of the men an entire airplane full of people had to suffer.
Yeah, let’s reserve judgment until we hear the details and all sides here…
So far, assumptive reasoning is at play.
For instance, one poster already concluded that the American travelers with kids ‘started’ the argument with the arab speakers. We don’t know that.
Matter of fact, we don’t know much.
Ease up kids….
@andrewsmash:
From what I heard, at points there was some yelling.
in arabic.
Ever heard anyone yell in arabic? It doesn’t sound very pleasant.
Frankly, that might be enough for me to at least call over a flight attendant.
At least in english, we know what they are arguing about.
@killavanilla: Yelling at the lady or yelling at each other? (Also, where did you read this?)
Because if they’re yelling at each other, who cares aside from the racket they’re making. If anything it means they’re less likely to be terrorists. People who have decided to blow themselves up aren’t going to fight over the window seat.
“Ever heard anyone yell in arabic? It doesn’t sound very pleasant.”
Does being unpleasant make you a terrorist? Does it make you “suspicious”? If it does there are a whole lot of potential terrorists in NYC.
“At least in english, we know what they are arguing about.”
We were able to rationalize slavery too. Guilty until proven innocent.
@phobs:
No… I am saying that there are more likely to be muslim terrorists who look midleeastern (persian, arab …. whatever)… than there will be white muslim terrorists. Its just the reality of the situation. I am not racist… I am a realist. YES, I agree that not all M.E.-looking people are terrorists, but the majority of terrorists (the US is looking for) are from Middleeastern countries. Do you not agree? I understand it is a tiny amount that are indeed terrorist, but that tiny amount are still more than likely to be middleasterners.
If there were terrorist groups comprised of red-haired white guys…. groups of red-haired white guys would be scrutinized in airports, train stations & subways. Is this wrong?or just practical?
If there were terrorist groups comprised of red-haired white guys…. groups of red-haired white guys would be scrutinized in airports, train stations & subways.
@nctrnlboy: Would they? Are you sure?
When’s the last time security anywhere in this country has stopped someone for being white? Or does the addition of red hair make it ok?
What if the only thing they had in common was being white? Should I be able to delay a flight because there’s a white guy speaking English?
If “red haired white guys” was a race like Arabs what you are described is racial profiling. It is not only invalid for many reasons, its also illegal. So yes, I would have to say what you describe is wrong ethically, legally, and even functionally.
Click this link for examples:
[www.aclu-il.org]
“muslim terrorists who look midleeastern (persian, arab …. whatever)”
If you are afraid of a group of people to the extent that you are willing to infringe on their basic rights you should, in the very least, know what they are called. It really borders on ridiculous to have such a fear of people that you know so little about. Each word you put up there encompasses a different group of people. Reeks of ignorance. May as well have said “brown people.”
@Egakino:
what basic rights have been violated when someone calls the cops because they think i am suspicious? I end up basically get checked out by the cops which means, my license & tags being run ,briefly questioned by a cop to find out the reality of the situation. I am never searched or needlessly harrassed (even though a few cops can be real pricks when they think you MIGHT be a pedophile).
I once had the cops called on me (by some old lady) for parking in an empty park that had a water tower nearby (apparrently this water tower has been broken into & scaled a lot by people in the past) & there were signs all over the place saying “we call the police” …neighborhood watch-type signs. Was it unrealistic to expect that the neighbors would be vigilent against such possible actions? About a person sitting in a vehicle near the water tower? The cop came, was nice, asked me why was there, checked the tower, took note of my tags etc etc & left me alone. Were my rights violated somehow?
Btw…. I also go metal detecting in parks sometimes (it makes for great practice). THAT’s why I am at parks so much.
@Rectilinear Propagation:
I think they would!
Just because it hasnt happened (whites being profiled in the US) doesnt mean that it wont or cant happen.
IF i was in a white minority in another country where whites have been notorious terrorists in the past (caused an event comparable to 9-11)… should I expect to be scrutinized when frequenting popular terrorist targets? I would think I would be.
and as for whites being stopped because they are white?… it does happen in the US. White people driving in black neighborhoods where drugs are known to be sold & whites are known to frequent to buy drugs….. are routinely stopped.
@nctrnlboy:
“what basic rights have been violated when someone calls the cops because they think i am suspicious? I end up basically get checked out by the cops which means, my license & tags being run ,briefly questioned by a cop to find out the reality of the situation. I am never searched or needlessly harrassed”
I take it you’re not black middle to lower class and live in a city.
“should I expect to be scrutinized when frequenting popular terrorist targets”
You may expect it but is it justified?
@phobs:
again how are people’s basic rights being broken when someone reports them as suspicious? Usually there is a reason someone reports another as suspicous. The environment also plays a part. Like I said before people are not just calling out random middleasterners on the street as terrorists.
And dont put words in my mouth regarding what you think I meant (“brown people”) …I said “arab, persian… whatever” because I didnt want someone to jump up & make statements like “arabs & persians are not the same!” (for some reason persians really HATE being lumped in with arabs & there is always one that has to be offended & point it out). My argument still stands that muslim terrorists are more likely to be native middleeasterners. If you want to call that racism, biggotry, knock yourself out. If it were jews, asians, whites …. I’d still think the same.
@phobs:
well jeeze! The world isnt perfectly fair… now is it? It would be wonderful if people wore their intentions on their forehead so that everyone knew what they were going to do. That’s what the police are for… to arrive/respond to an acccusation & determine the reality of the situation (is he a terrorist? is he a pedophile? is he REALLY acting suspicious? That’s for the police to determine).
And because I didnt grow up in a city doesnt mean I havnt been pulled over for being “out late at night & probably up to no good” by bored smalltown cops. It happens. Yeah, it sucks, but it happens. I expected it.
Remember… whites get pulled over in black areas being suspected of being there to buy drugs, so dont say its only minorities that get checked out.
My point being that if you fit a certain profile (if you are black, white, asian,jew… whatever & happen to be in an area known for a certain illegal activity (this could be a woman dressed provacatively in an area where hookers get johns, a group of arab men on an airplane that give others [flight crew/passengers] cause to be suspicious , a white man cruising around in a black neighborhood where whites travel to to buy drugs…. & on & on & on…. then you have to expect to be “checked out”. Is it justified? The world isnt a perfect place & you cant expect it to be.
@nctrnlboy: Reread my post. Then, click the link for explanations and examples. The legal standards described conflict with what you see as fit and justified actions to take.
The fact that you lump very different groups together as the same implies ignorance or apathy. Neither of which support your claim. If you were trying to avoid offending someone, clumping them into an entirely different group would not suffice.
I have described how your beliefs are inline with the very definition of racism. I linked the definition of racism I used.
Then, I showed how practices you believe are valid for law-enforcement are in fact illegal. I linked the actual statue discussed by an established legal authority.
You have been wholly discredited and decide to stick to your beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. You are irrational, your ideas racist, and you are possibly ignorant. You can dispute my facts, but repeating your position over and over does not strengthen your case.
Man people should start calling the police because there’s a red neck racist moron on the plane. See how they like it.
@nctrnlboy: If you don’t like riding in planes with darkies, why don’t you get a private jet? Or better yet, don’t fly. Whatever you do, please don’t inconvenience the rest of us because of your fears.
I would be more than happy to ride a plane full of Arabs. We’ll all eat halal meat, make fun of Persian dudes with unibrows and sing Arabic songs together. You have no idea what kind of fun you’re missing out on.
I don’t like ugly people, if there are ever ugly people on my plane – I’m getting off.
We all know bad things never happen to beautiful people.
@phobs:
Well, since you say it is so… it must be. :rolleyes:
Call me ignorant, racist, irrational and whatever other insults you wish to use to win your argument. I refuse to do likewise.
And I realize that the peoples of the M.E. are all not the same (if you had read above I didnt lump arabs in with persians) But most americans cannot tell a persian from an arab, likewise they cant tell most asians apart from other asians. Hindu from a muslim just by looking at them. Middleeasten people tend to look the same to americans… do you not agree? Is it reasonable to expect americans to be able to easily tell them apart?
And I already stated that if this was about whites instead of middleasterners on this plane & everything were reversed …. my stance would not change. I guess I am racist against whites too? (or maybe you just dont believe me).
This whole argument is about whether or not the flight crew was justified in taking action because of a passenger’s concern for her safety. Was the flight crew justified in doing what they did? Yes, I believe so. The passenger? who knows until the real events will hopefully come out in the end.
@nctrnlboy:
well said.
@spinachdip:
lol wtf? I wouldnt mind riding on a jet plane full of “darkies” as you put it. I’d feel more comfortable doing that than on a flight with one conspicious group of middleeasterners that are giving concern to other passengers.
@Onouris:
lol I love it… I am now a racist redneck moron. All aboard the bash train! WOOOT! WOOT!
Note: to mods, sorry about the doubleposts/multiple posts, I am trying to combine my responses, but by the time I respond new responses to mine pop up. Trying now to refresh a lot before final posting.
bedofnails said:What about the hundreds of thousands of missed appointments, birthdays, court appearances, anniversaries of the 2,974 that happen to go to work in New York 6 years ago?
Who the hell gave you the right to speak for them? Speak for yourself instead of tarnishing the dead with your contempt and ignorance.
@NCTRNLBOY: It may not be, by definition, racism but it’s definitely prejudicial and a semantic squint from full blown racism. Don’t kid yourself.
We’ve had three major terrorist acts committed in this country since 1990, one of which was carried out by white men named McVeigh, Nicols, et al. Being “wary” (another word for “afraid”) of muslims, Arabs, “middle easterners”, or anyone looking like one (the Sikhs I know are treated like potential terrorists every time they fly) is dangerous for two reasons: 1) you forget that all kinds of people do horrible things, and 2) you treat innocent people like criminals.
@zouxou:
Ok, speaking for myself – I’m would much rather deplane over a racial profiling dispute, then wind up incinerated thousands of feet in the air.
Speaking strictly for myself that is.
@nctrnlboy: You are astoundingly ignorant.
“Hindu from a muslim just by looking at them. Middleeasten people tend to look the same to americans”
Do you understand Muslim and Hindu are religions?
Do you understand the basis you put forth to defend the woman’s motives in calling the safety of the flight into questions has been deemed illegal in this country?
Do you understand that the practices you repeat in your posts have also been well established to be illegal?
Do you understand that I’ve backed up my claims with reputable sources, whereas your views are wholly subjective?
Do you understand that saying you are not racist doesn’t make it so, when you’ve demonstrated otherwise?
Do you understand that discriminating against a pool of people does not become more socially or legally acceptable because you decreased it to a number still in the millions?
@bedofnails: You’ve concluded you’re willing to give up the rights of other people to increase your personal saftety. How brave.
@bedofnails: I’m sure you’re aware of the concept of Acceptable Risk, i.e. it’s perfectly possible to make a plane that can survive pretty much anything, but the cost of producing and operating such a plane would be so prohibitive that it would be completely useless.
So when we fly, we accept a certain degree of risks for the convenience. We could always make it safer, but it’s just not worth it. FOr the sake of this discussion, let’s agree that flying with a bunch of Arabs is a risk. But how risky is it to fly with Arabs?
Well, between 2000 and 2005, there were roughly 46 million US-based commercial jet flights. I’m not sure how many of those 46 million flights had Arabs on board, but four Arab-related crashes in 46 million comes out to 1 every 11.5 million flights. Even if we decide arbitrarily, for the sake of our argument, that only half those flights contained Arabs, you’re still looking at less than one Arab-related crash every 5 million flights. Those are pretty good odds, considering you have one in 600,000 chance of being hit by lightning. Plus, all four Arab-related crashes in this decade happened on one day, so you could almost dismiss them as an outlier.
The point is, millions of Arab-speaking people, many of them with hate in their heart, travel in the US airspace, but planes manage to stay in the air.
All things considered, riding in planes with Arab boys is just not that dangerous. This is simply another case of people seeing the “man bites dog” story and thinking it’s the norm, and forgetting that millions of “dog bites man” stories go unreported.
@bedofnails: Could you not make gross generalizations for all of us, please? Just because I’m American doesn’t mean I’m an isolationist, racist jerk like you. This may cause shock and awe, but I could not care less what language other people want to converse in, how they want to dress, and what religion they want to practice–and I’m even from the South!
I think it’s wrong to assume that all people who fit a racial profile may be up to no good. Plain and simple. There are plenty of terrorist groups in the world who are not Arabic, as well. I guess I’m just the product of overeducation in the likes of international politics and linguistics. Now. Where can I get a gun and a pair of overalls?
What a moron!
Is it just me or am I missing the part where it said they were middle eastern? It just says they were speaking arabic. I mean, ok, yes, the reaction of the passengers in question was probably provoked through a combination of language and skin tone/dress/whatever but still…
Amazing how it’s ok since they were working for the government. It shouldn’t matter whether or not they’re teaching Marines Arabic or whatever it was they were teaching them. A person shouldn’t be harassed for speaking another language.
@stanfrombrooklyn: Someone who’d complain may not be able to hear the difference between a Chinese speaker and an Arabic speaker, but they shoor kin see if they be slanty eyed or dirty brown. /snark
@k8supergrover: Bingo bango, someone gets it. I will say it again ARABIC IS NOT A RELIGION OR ORGANIZATION.
How the hell could these morons even tell it was Arabic? They probably would have just assumed it was Arabic and reacted the same way had it actually been Tamil or Hindi or Afrikaans or French or Klingon.
People can tell if its Arabic or Persian or Hebrew or whatever? I sure can’t.
Allah means “God” in Arabic, and the word is used by both Christian and Muslim speakers of Arabic. Not all people who speak Arabic are Muslim, some are stereotypically ‘middle eastern’ looking, others would be easily considered ‘white guys’ with blond hair and blue-eyes (looking less ‘Middle Eastern” than many Italians) and many are without question, black/african.
Not all Muslims are Arabs – not even most of them – there are masses of Indians, Pakistanis, Malaysians, Indonesians, Turkish, Kenyans, Ethiopians, Chinese, Koreans, Nigerians, Malian, etc. who are Muslim. And they are speaking hundreds of others languages other than Arabic.
And who are all these folks who can tell the difference between Arabic, and say Swahili, Amharic, Tygrinya, etc?
I guess if people saw some of you, heard your language, your accents, they could assume you’d be ignorant, small-minded bigots. And while they’d be right about you, they wouldn’t be right about everyone who spoke and looked like you.
Some people will always use ‘fear’ to justify their racism, religious bigotry and xenophobia. And fear of the unknown wouldn’t be so great, if some many Americans weren’t just completely ignorant about so much of the world’s histories, cultures, religions, languages, etc.
Many Americans are also ignorant of the history of this country, and the ways that racists, bigots have always used that ‘fear’ thing to justify mistreating non-white people. Indian massacres, land theft, slavery, jim crow racism, all justified by ‘fear.’
Seems some American traditions are going strong…
@nctrnlboy:
Most people couldn’t pick out an arab from a persian from a Moroccan sephardi jew if their lives depended on it.
Face it, this woman was HURRR ignorant and easily spooked and that held up an entire plane full of people for a night.
I get this shit all the time walking around my lilly white suburban enclave for the sin of being non-white and ‘sorta A-rab lookin’ *cue eyebrow raising*.
And yet, I don’t sit there and stereotype about all white people, even though I easily could.
To echo: Arabic is not a religion. I have family members who can speak an Arabic dialect, but in fact are from Orthodox Christian lineage. This makes for some interesting reactions when ignorant people here in the U.S. suddenly decide that, well, they’re kind of “the good guys.” And like, almost “white.” Fox News loves to bring on an angry Lebanese Orthodox Muslim-bashing commentator from a privileged family from time to time.
At this point, in fact, Arabic is not one language. It is a collection of dialects, along with what is called Classical Arabic, and many of them are not mutually intelligible.
Arab is not a race, it is an ethnicity. It is a dominant ethnicity in countries across two continents and Arab people are well-represented in many other parts of the world. Race is a social construct. Race only truly exists in discussions about how people are stratified by dominant ideologies based on ambiguous phenotype criteria.
I agree that it doesn’t matter that these men were contracted by the government and went through the appropriate screening to instruct U.S. Marines, but I think it punctuates the pre-existing point here pretty strongly.
And yes, I seriously doubt that the hysterical person responsible for this embarrassment to all U.S. citizens had any idea whether the men were speaking Arabic, Farsi, Azeri, Turkish, Hebrew, Armenian, Assyrian, or a Sami/Lappish dialect, for that matter.
If not for liability issues, I would have expected her to get out and walk back to the terminal herself. That way, her child might remember and eventually process her irrational and toxic behavior for what it is.
sorry to all the elitists, but I’ll profile whoever the hell I want. Much in the same way I would expect to be profiled in a middle eastern country, listening to defleppard on my ipod.
If profiling makes all arabics, muslims, blah blah blah uncomfortable…GOOD. Then we’re doing our job. I really care who TSA checks or profiling offends.
If they can profile my 3 yearold and pull off his shoes on his way through an airport on the way to disneyland, than they sure as hell better profile 6 guys with long black beards and turbans sitting together speaking arabic.
DEAL WITH IT, it’s 2007 not 1999 anymore.
@Buran:
Actually, she didn’t hint at that at all when she said, “People, let’s try to behave ourselves on the airplane.” At worst, she was ambiguous – nobody but Meg knows which “people” she was referring to. When I read it, I assumed she meant the *complaining* people. And you assumed the opposite. Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder.
Am I the only one that sees this as it is? In light of current events, 911, I too would be a bit uneasy on a plane were a group of men were speaking Arabic.
Having said this, these group of men should have known better, they are in American where English is the official language hence because of 911 they should not have spoken in their language on a plane. Lets use common sense here. I would have spoken out against them and got off the plane.
How the hell would I or anyone have known who they worked for and frankly I wouldn’t have cared.
Bottom line is this, the men on 911 looked just like everyone else, no one knew where they worked, nor had any fear of them. Until…
So you guys can defend Arabic speaking people all you want, I will not. It is just the way it is, it was their people that did this to us, so now they must walk a fine line. To me it was asinine for them to even think on a plane they would not have caused problems. Get real here.
I’ AM MEXICAN-AMERICAN BUT EVERYONE TELLS ME I HAVE AN ARABIC FACE. I SPEAK ENGLISH, SPANISH, ARABIC, FRENCH AND PORTUGUESSE……WOULD YOU TAKE ME OUT THE PLANE FOR SPEAKING ARABIC….THAT’S NOT OK.
@QuinnMajuju:
Neither is typing in all caps. For crying out loud!