Uh, why wouldn't they just print the fraudulent docs here?

jimv2000

FijianTribe

Buran

my mother is a landed immigrant and she has never been ask for her citizenship papers for picking up a parcel - the only thing she's ever been asked for is for her drivers licence when picking up parcels

chartrule

ageshin

[www.msnbc.msn.com]

metaled

god_forbids

Maybe they just looked at the address on it? Maybe it is coming from their "Registar Recorder's" Office (Birth Certificate). Maybe she is in the habit of getting a lot of mail from this same official? I've noticed domestic packages I have ordered have obviously been retaped, accidentally ripped open?
But none of that matters, they have the right to search anything coming into and out of the country. That includes your prescription pills from Canada! It never crossed your mind how the Feds do these big smuggling busts, stuff a dog can't smell. You send mail into or out of the country, they can check it!
If the feds are checking on people who are ordering multiple Birth Certificates or Social Security info, I'm all for it! It's about time they put a stop to these Illegals (Illegals are doing more than just being illegally here! Just ask my nephews!)

metaled

ceejeemcbeegee

RagingTowers

Legions of Eastern European illegal immigrants who bleed NYC dry with their welfare cheating in Brighton Beach? They're just an aberration.

KarmaChameleon

He isn't from Mexico or India or Africa or any of the high-fraud areas, though. He has also been here 40+ years.

(Rants about how long it's taking his citizenship application to move through the morass are an entirely different matter).

Buran

DrGirlfriend

UPS is not asking for her green card, they're asking for ID.

sean77

Thank you for christ sake, all you need is photoshop and the right template lol.. a whole lot of good email is going to do.

Lucky225

Hi Corporate!

DikembeMeiztombo

CharlieInSeattle

CharlieInSeattle

LionelEHutz

Legal resident, yes. Citizen, no.

OnHiatus

donkeyjote

D-Bo

Maybe I'll go sneaking around the neighborhood in the middle of the night dressed all in black. If the cops confront me, I'll tell them that to ask me to identify myself just because I'm doing suspicious with no definitive evidence of doing anything illegal is a violation of my rights. I wonder if a Taser hurts as much as they say it does?

S-the-K

Somebody in Mexico must have been very honest about identifying the contents of that envelope. Otherwise, how else would UPS have known? They coulda said "paperwork." Do you have to identify specifically what kind of paper is in your envelope now? What's the relationship between having birth certificates mailed to you, and having to show proof of legal residency? What, realistically, will the INS/HS do with the information?

@bdgbill: As unpopular as his snarky comment is, there's a grain of truth to it. Here in my border city, where it appears half of everything is illegal, you can be taken downtown for not having a driver license or other proof of legal residency if you are stopped by the police. There are new immigration jails recently opened in the area to process illegal immigrants. Good times!

ChuckECheese

Knight-Zero

LUV2CattleCall

Bad news: The USPS uses UPS for aerial shipments!

LUV2CattleCall

Then call one of those anonymous tip lines and say UPS believes it's holding illicit goods related to forged US documents, but isn't turning it over to appropriate authorities.

Then, let the federal government (hoping for a bust they will jump at the opportunity) raid the UPS depot, get the package, and check it out.

Since they are legitimate, your in the clear, you did your civic duty and reported it and UPS get what they wanted.

Does anyone loose?

digitalgimpus

SkokieGuy

mike

SkokieGuy

Edge23

A liquor stores complies with laws that require they check ID. If a minor attempt to purchase liquor,the liquor store is limited in their actions to simply denying the sale.

To enforce the law, the liquor store can contact a law enforcement officers can be called to arrest. (Get it? Law ENFORCEMENT officer, pretty clever!)

Similarly, UPS has to comply with all applicable laws, such as customs, DEA, FDA import regulations and such. UPS has no enforcement authority. They follow many many rules that regulate their business, but cannot arrest, fine or imprison, (yet - how soon is Bush out of office?).

If you try to have Cuban Cigars sent to the USA, UPS may intercept the package and turn it over to customs who may choose to prosecute you.

All clear now?

SkokieGuy

CMU_Bueller

CMU_Bueller

>> The constitution does, in fact, apply to corporations

Can your provide evidence of this? The US Constitution states corporations have to provide free speech, the right to assemble, can't search company owned lockers etc...?

Yes, UPS could give the federal government the finger and challenge this policy in court. But they probably share in the goral of cutting down fraud. As you know, many of the 911 hijackers have fake IDs and documents.

And why would UPS want to challenge this anyways? It's not like they will lose business since all other carries (FedEx, DHL) have to abide by the same laws.

The "harm" is solely limited to a non-citizen who claims to be a legal resident but won't provide that to the UPS.

Yes being undocumented is a civil offense, but committing fraud and money laundering is not. The government is trying to stop that.

Edge23

Any package coming into the US from another country can be inspected for customs duties and contraband. In practice, most aren't, because it's too expensive. They just trust the little duty label you put on there. But they have the right to check it, as do other countries when packages come in from the US. When I lived in Japan, my mom would sent me some beef jerky from home sometimes. Japan has strict beef import laws. Sometimes my package would show up just fine. Other times it would be seal in Japanese Customs tape with the beef jerky missing and a kind note informing me it had been incinerated. That's just the way it is.

Her letter either said "Birth Certificates" or "Documents", and since they are on the lookout for fraudulent documents coming from Mexico, either would have been a flag for inspection.

Also, for the folks asking "what documents would I show to prove I'm a citizen if I was born here": are you serious? What do you use to get a passport? Your birth certificate, obviously. And if you don't have one, try to get an SS number, driver's license, passport, etc. Nearly impossible (though in NC you can still use a family bible, hilarious).

Also, please note: legal aliens here with green cards DO NOT HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS CITIZENS. They mostly do, especially human rights stuff, but they are, for example, obligated to inform USCIS every time they move, etc. Also, doesn't the constitution say everyone can vote? But resident aliens can't....oh, so, the constitution doesn't wholly apply to them....head...exploding.....

Fact is, if ICE wants to see her green card, she must show it or she can be deported. End of story. If USCIS flagged her, she has no choice. Non compliance can have bad consequences. If she's been a legal alien since 2002, she should be eligible for citizenship, and then all these problems will go away. Until then, she plays by different rules.

And for the record, my wife is Japanese and a resident alien (green card), and I've been dealing with USCIS for a long time. Citizen and non-citizen: there is a big difference.

OnHiatus

Niri

VMR

Look, perfect candidates for dying in a barn fire! 100% grade-A sheep meat, does what you tell it no matter your credentials, just flash a little authoritai and moooo, it moves along. Please, you guys, get the hell out of America while there's still something left of our civil rights. Kthxbai.

To answer a few of the more striking idiocies (which I'm totally not surprised are) in this thread:

- UPS has to obey laws; the constitution does, in fact, apply to corporations -- it EVEN applies to the government itself! ::gasp::

- The government telling someone to do something is not the same as "a law". Contrary to what Herr Bushy would have us believe, it's quite possible for the government, or parts of it, to break the law and violate the Constitution. This does not, again contrary to some moronic views, change the law or make it okay.

- Nothing in what UPS (or "the government") is trying to do here in any way protects US citizens (authorized or unauthorized) from terrorism or anything else. It's pure "security theater", to quote the emminent Bruce Schneier.

- The HARM being done here, on the other hand, is just as dangerous to citizens as non-citizens, and to the innocent as the guilty. Your Pure As Driven Snow Conscience does *not*, in fact, mean that you don't have to care about this. (Neither do your gleaming perfect Papers.)

- In case anybody was curious, being "undocumented" in this country is a civil, NOT a criminal offense. So all the B.S. that's getting spouted about being able to trample people's rights because they're criminals (assuming they're guilty, which I realize everyone is totally keen to do), is quite thoroughly bullshit.

In closing, UPS should, and is totally within its rights to, give the "government" the finger; and the lady receiving this package should demand that they turn it over to the cops (which is the only reasonable actually-security-oriented action they're allowed to take), and then call every media phone number she's got.

-M.,
Not Native-American

Mary Marsala with Fries

coren

CMU_Bueller

mike

Showing a greencard doesn't seem as bad as showing a drivers license or passport. They pretty much have the same information.

mike

1. UPS must comply to laws. If the government is requiring UPS, FedEx, USPS, et al to check identification, then they have to. I'm not prevy to the wording of the law but I assume that it also includes citizenship.

2. The law itself. I'm not saying that it's not stupid to ask for proof of citizenship. I'm just saying that no matter what, the law is the law. "Understanding is not a prerequisite to compliance."

3. The suspicion of the package. When a police officer pulls you over, he may not be suspicious to what you have in your trunk. However, if you act weird or uncomfortable, he has probable cause to search the car. The package may have not become suspicious until the woman refused to confirm her citizenship.

I don't know the order of events. All I'm saying is that regardless of the law, regardless of what happened, UPS was complying with laws. If the woman wanted the package, she should have showed the proof of citizenship.

mike

CMU_Bueller

Wormfather

audreyhorne

Not to be combative or anything, but a drivers' license, on its own, does not constitute proof of citizenship.

BigElectricCat

CharlieInSeattle

You can't grasp the law.

CharlieInSeattle

Even if the 4th amendment doesn't apply Article VI of the constitution does. Treaties are the "and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land;" We have a treaty with Mexico, which part of that don't you understand?

CharlieInSeattle

diddy0071

@linus: I'm having trouble understanding why her citizenship matters at all. If the documents are forgeries then they should be turned over to law enforcement who should be contacting this woman themselves. If the documents are legit they should hand them over.

I just don't see how asking for her green card helps or proves anything one way or the other.

Rectilinear Propagation

Knock it off and grow up!

thelushie

diddy0071

diddy0071

Unless you'd like to argue they ought to speak Ojibwe at McDonalds, we're all immigrants, sugarplum. Some are just more recent and better behaved than others.

mediatus

Wait a minute ... I don't have to worry ... my last name isn't Hispanic.

WayneK2

They point out the exceptions to the amendment in the article and the receiving facility is clearly one of those exceptions.

cametall

DjDynasty

But she will lose in court.

Edge23

Edge23

wring

mike

They asked me for identification. I had completely forgot my wallet at home (thankfully, I didn't drive). I told him that I had just gotten there and had no idea what happened. He let my friend and I go.

mike

"After the Sept. 11 attacks, Customs and Border Protection "was given the legal right to inspect everything coming into the country and going out," said Joanne Ferreira, the agency's spokeswoman in Washington. "Identity documents are of concern to CBP because of their potential use by terrorists."

She said couriers are required to obtain additional information about a shipment, including proof of residency, if customs agents ask for it.

Bustos would have the birth certificates if she had complied with the request, Ferreira said. If Bustos does not end up with them, they will be sent to the Mexican Embassy in Washington."

It seems like CBP has requested additional identification be provided by Bustos in order to verify her immigration status.

thetango

"Kristen Petrella, a UPS spokeswoman, said the company is simply following the law. U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents open and detain certain items, she said, and UPS' role is just to notify the customer how to get it.

"We follow exactly what they tell us to do," she said. "We are not an enforcement agency. We are not making the rules. We are in the business of making deliveries, but we have to follow the law.""

The feds asked for the green card.

Take your treaty and shove it. When Mexico stops sending illegals here, we will consider abiding by any crappy treaty signed in the past.

Edge23

chiieddy

Watch COPS. If suspects don't have ID or they think they are giving false information (Name), the police will take them in and have them sit in jail till a fingerprint or government database check comes back showing who they are. A lot of people that DON'T have ID, give a false name will sit in jail a couple days and come back as a wanted felon or killer. A reason "they never got around to getting an ID".
They book them as JOHN DOE and they remain till a positive ID comes back. Even if no other crime is commited. CARRY ID!

metaled

CharlieInSeattle

[www.yale.edu]

CharlieInSeattle

So short, you learn how to read. The US government required UPS to get the green card from the woman.

Edge23

I'm having trouble understanding why this is so complicated.

mike

@SkokieGuy: Enforcement does happen in the private domain. When you apply for a job, the company is responsible to make sure you are allowed to work in the country.

Alcohol merchants must check and verify age before selling. By your standard, a police officer should be assigned to every grocery store, every restaurant, every mom-and-pop store to make sure that this inforced by a law enforcement organization. And even if this were to happen, we'd be screaming of an invasion of privacy.

UPS is not a law enforcement organization. Yes, that's true. But they do carry a responsibility, like all companies, to respond to the law. If UPS' hands are tied to verify citizenship in order to deliver a package sent from overseas, then they have to. There is no way to tell that the delivery is not a sting operation, much like the police using under-21 cadets to perform alcohol sale checks.

mike

CharlieInSeattle

CharlieInSeattle

@linus: So what do you do if you're just visiting and someone sends you something? Why does being a US citizen matter one way or the other?

@MountainRooster: Proof of your identity isn't the same thing as proof of legal residency.

Rectilinear Propagation

CharlieInSeattle

Milkham

2. She says she is a legal resident. Did you personally verify that? Have you looked at her green card? Because that is all the UPS wants to do. The custom agents have asked for it from UPS.

Edge23

Edge23

CharlieInSeattle

metaled

First, if the documents are illegal, whether the receiver is here legally or not is irrelevant. Secondly, UPS is not qualified to determine the validity of the documents.

Yes,laws give UPS the right (and perhaps duty) to inspect incoming packages, but any suspect shipments should be referred to the appropriate law enforcement authorities to determine if the shipment is in violation (FDA if its a shipment of suspect food, Immigration if its suspect citizen documents, DEA if its suspect drugs, etc.).

UPS is not a law enforcement organization.

SkokieGuy

actually you are only required to carry a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle. Otherwise you are only required to identify yourself to LEOs.

BII

UPS is xenophobic for following the law? What utter crap.

Edge23

you're an idiot. she's a LEGAL resident of this country. take your jingoism elsewhere, kthxbai

BII

MountainRooster

UPS is acting as an agent of the government in requiring people to show their green card.

UPS is doing nothing wrong. Since ids can be forged easily, and there has been a history of fraudulent documents coming from/sent to Mexico, requiring the person to show their green card is reasonable.

Edge23

If you hate illegals so much, our great country would like you learn to spell 'illegally' correctly.

Rey

bsalamon

I see this no different than the government requiring pharmacies to put decongestants behind the counter.

UPS, complying with federal laws, is required by Border patrol to detain "suspicious" packages. While the package may have contained papers, they weren't sure if they were forged; furthermore, how are they to know that the green card was not forged?

I agree that if she refused to confirm her citizenship, UPS must turn over the package to Customs to be inspected.

Asking for proof of citizenship is not a violation of the 4th amendment. A police officer can ask for your license at anytime without cause. Why should a Passport/green card be any different?

mike

Me

If I wanted to commit some sort of identity theft, wouldn't it make more sense to send it from inside to out, so that people could come over here illegally?

Also, aren't most cases of identity fraud from INSIDE the US?

stacye

consumersaur

bdgbill

I'm telling you, we are not that far from this. This nation is falling apart.

Gokuhouse

myasir

This is completely stupid.

Rectilinear Propagation

B

SuffolkHouse

Cycledoc

UPS has no law enforcement authority and is not qualified to evaluate what is or is not "valid" identification. Furthermore, and emailed copy does not prove authenticity.

If the woman really wants to be tough, she could demand that UPS contact law enforcement authorities to investigate the contents of the package and her.

Of course, realistically, fax or email the 'proof' to satisfy an arbitrary UPS clerk, then perhaps contact Gloria Allred. Practice crying on cue first.

SkokieGuy

"identify herself further," but do they have a right to know her citizenship status?...Or should Cristina just roll over and get with the system?"

My experience around these parts lead me to belive the community is going to tell her to shut up and show as much ID as they ask for.

Wormfather

2. More funny: What if the package had actually contained her green card? My fiancee is from the UK and she said she received her green card via UPS.

3. What if this was total bullshit? Oh wait, it is.

Wormfather

timmus