OldStyleLite

Sorry but I'll pirate a copy before I buy into that BS. I've had to house sit for over two weeks before w/o net connection. I play games. Frnakly these dragonian mesuares are driving me to download games. I don't run a machine for game companies to check on every ten days. I use it for ME.

Firstborn Dragon

I'd (begrudgingly) expect DRM on a new $50 title, but when it's 4 years old and available under $20.... one would expect the DRM to be dropped as the title is closer to "end of life".

Maybe this company needs to state "we have a patch that will disable the DRM check and it will be freely released in the event that the product is discontinued, or our company is dissolved or purchased by another entity that no longer chooses to support this product."

yeah, right.

FrankM

Sorry to beat the dead horse, but:

[www.penny-arcade.com]

:)

crice

Why don't you go read what Ironclad said about piracy prevention.

The simple way to end piracy is having a game worth playing, a comprehensive demo, and not using something that f**ks with your customer's computer OR game experience. Starware is a nightmare, Securom doesn't like a lot of burners (which are standard drives on PC's now), and Sony used a rootkit (for MUSIC), and I have friends that don't have internet. Oh well, there's always someone cracking this crap 15 minutes after it's released.

I don't advocate piracy, as I believe people should be paid for their work. Don't make a demo? I'll advocate someone trying it for about an hour to see if they like it.

Inglix_the_Mad

Yeah, no demo + insane system requirements = people making sure the game will run, if at all, before purchasing.

It's a little like saying "buy this lotus, no you can't test drive it, just trust us, it's really great.. you have seen the pictures right? doesn't it look great with that guy sitting there? nevermind that you're like 2 feet too tall to sit in there.."

ahh fuck it, people don't deserve explanations sometimes. that one is too obvious.

trujunglist

Slatz_Grobnik

Logan26

aphexbr

I should have worded my point about your central thesis better. I know that you said many times that Mass Effect's system is not ideal. My point was simply that it was nonetheless crucial to your argument that their system or one like it (potentially superior) is necessary. Others argued that no system was necessary. That's all.

selectman

Heavy-handed DRM is only going to compel more people to get their hands on a pirated version that's DRM-free, or to crack their copy once they purchase it. Ultimately, this DRM will become a complete non-issue and totally ineffective because anyone wishing to bypass it simply will. That's the fatal flaw with pretty much any DRM. Someone WILL find a way around it, and that'll be it.

WraithSama

"In addition, you also glossed over your own central thesis; that the only salvation to PC gaming is DRM."

Way to be wrong. I never said that the only salvation of PC gaming is DRM. In fact, I've stated multiple times that it's not the best solution, and I've supported the system than GCII uses wholeheartedly.

But fine. I was trolling. I'm sorry. Can we please move the fuck on?

ShirtGuyDom

4. Eyebrows Mcgee made the following point: [consumerist.com]
You then proceeded to the behavior noted in 5.

In addition, you also glossed over your own central thesis; that the only salvation to PC gaming is DRM. Instead, you focused mostly on accusing others of not wanting to save the industry:

"@uberbucket: Why not? So you can torrent games and have nothing to worry about?"

"@Daniels: Yep. Would you rather never be able to play a PC game at all because no developer wanted to waste time developing PC games?"

Those statements are all fine if you can actually prove that PC games cannot succeed without DRM. This point was woefully ignored, however.

The fact is that this is an open question. You must acknowledge this to have any credibility.

selectman

radio1

my question to EA is this.... what about your college age players who are on college dorm networks which heavily filter IP connections? what's that you say? sorry.

koruptid

When you play devil's advocate, you make clear you are advocating for a position you do not necessarily believe. You do not a) present it as your own argument and then b) get all upset and offended when other people take you at your word. That is called a) lying and b) whining.

And you are still coming across as a child, not a mature participant in the conversation. I know in your own head what you're saying sounds great, but it's coming across as immature and petulant. Sorry.

(And yes, it pretty much does sound like you're retroactively claiming sarcasm because you got caught out. That's definitely the "tone" we're all reading.)

Eyebrows McGee

Aside from the fact that DRM doesn't stop any of the piracy, rather disadvantaging unsophisticated users under the guise of combatting the hackers, it also bloats both the production cost and the purchase price for content.

Who's with me to just say no to DRM.

While we're at it maybe we could fight back against the paracopyright regulations of the DMCA...

GizmoBub

You'd like to think that's true, wouldn't you? Fact is, the majority of pirates were never potential customers. Ever. Or at least that was true before DRM stepped in.

But now, the average consumer and the media is starting to catch on to what DRM is -- and they don't like it. You're creating a lot of negativity about you and your games. I think I've counted a good 10 lost potential sales just in these 2 pages of comments already for that very reason.

DRM has literally pushed otherwise legitimate consumers to become software pirates, or to simply not buy your game at all. And this isn't limited to the gaming industry either. I've had a few friends ask me about Linux after they heard about DRM in Windows Vista.

You're just losing potential sales in a sad effort to gain sales that never would have existed either way. And not only that, you're wasting time and resources in the process.

xDimMaK

Czum

mechanismatic

ShirtGuyDom

1. My argument was sarcastic. I was playing devil's advocate.

2. Of course others poked holes in my argument, it was sarcastic.

3. Please quote me doing that.

4. Again, provide quotes.

5. Throwing around insults? I don't know how long you've been following this, but I was the one who's been insulted.

Thank you for further showing me why such sarcasm straight up does not work here. You want me to throw around insults? Fine. You're a pretentious, short-sighted, immature ignoramus.

I was waiting for someone to come along and say "you're just saying you were sarcastic to save face." Took longer than I expected, but such dickery never fails.

ShirtGuyDom

Sorry, couldn't let this one pass. There was a study done a few years ago on email and "intent" (sorry, can't remember the citation). Basically, participants were told to email a message to a recipient, but were instructed to put a particular spin on the message to connote an implied meaning - so the message would be intended to be sarcastic, or polite, or happy, or angry etc. They then surveyed the senders and the recipients about the content of the message. Over 80% of the senders were positive that the emotional cues in their message were clear and that the recipient would "get" what they were saying. But it turned out that only about 40% of the recipients correctly interpreted this implied meaning.

Bottom line: if you assume that others can interpret your implied frame of mind (tone or intent) by what you type, you will be wrongly perceive more than half the time - even if you are _sure_ that your meaning is clear.

Czum

1. Troll repeatedly makes argument that is 100% airtight (in his head).
2. Others begin to poke holes in said argument.
3. Troll responds with distractions and hand-waving, and self-righteousness.
4. A few well reasoned, balanced rebuttals appear, providing little room for Troll to repeat step 3.
5. Feeling painted in a corner, Troll ignores all substantive arguments and begins throwing around insults, feigning a lack of serious belief in his original argument. This is usually accompanied by retroactive claims of sarcasm.

selectman

I'm not an avid PC gamer buy I do play PC games. My gaming PC is no longer on a network connection. That would make this game unplayable for me. I'm glad that I found out about this issue here.

I don't feel the need to run a network cable to my bedroom just so EA can check up on my copy of a game.

Techguy1138

Saboth

I have been burned before by Sony's DRM. So if your game uses it, then I'm not buying it.

It's that simple.

Stardock has the right idea with "Sins of a Solar Empire" no DRM, cheaper cost of game.

This gets you more market saturation and you don't have to pay the DRM developer.

Trust me the DRM is too easy for pirates to strip out anyway so why bother with the cost?

axiomatic

Well put.

TinyBug

Companies don't pay attention to valid complaints. They pay attention to money, so you've got to hit them where it hurts, in the wallet.

P_Smith

If your PC game sales are dropping, that's part of the reason.

The irony is that those times where the damn copy protection caused me to be unable to play the damn game I paid real money for, the solution was to just go download the crack.

sburnap42

It will work fine until 24 hours later hackers create a rouge authentication server or crack to break this "feature", which is ALWAYS without fail what happens to DRM infestations.

Breach

all the answers i've heard to this previously were along the lines of "not economically feasible", but it seems as though this e.t. bullshit would require heaps more time, money & energy to work properly.

mac-phisto

tortcat

By the way:

"As for the "instructing servicemen on how they should be spending their free time," I'm pretty sure the entire situation was in a hypothetical context, and I'm pretty sure my responses were entirely sarcastic. But okay, sorry (to TechnoDestructo..."

So excuse me if I go ahead and say "who the hell are you?"

ShirtGuyDom

It's obviously very hard to read sarcasm over the internet.

By the way, your servicemen quip was very, very low. You should be ashamed.

crice

ShirtGuyDom

Future Devisl Advocatate advice: when people prove their point, stop beating it like a dead horse.

I cant believe I am still reading this tread. Kudos to you for your endurance.

I wrote some more about anti-piracy, but I think everything that needs to be said has been said.

redkamel

Nice move, EA, very clever.

mariospants

johnva

I work in the games industry. Simple fact is that fighting piracy is just a delaying action and we know it. From the moment a game is released you have a couple month window to make nearly all your profits. Most sales come in just a couple weeks. Then retailers boot you off the shelf for the next big game. So every week we can delay pirates results in more sales. People get frustrated waiting and buy a copy instead.

Geekybiker

I don't know about you, but we're not a relatively small number. There's a camp that's solely for upgrading at every new hardware and software release and there's also a camp that treasures some of the oldies. Both are a longtime PC tradition and still pretty strong.

To say otherwise is to simply expose yourself.

azntg

Concerned_Citizen

ehlaren

"Complaining and moaning about a possible (yet still admittedly flawed) solution is like welcoming the destruction of PC gaming."

Do you seriously believe that the actual solution they're putting in won't ALSO be a cause of the 'destruction of PC gaming' like you say.

Hmmmmm, let's see. Don't even say 'pirate'. There are 2 choices here that are relevant. 1 - game is purchased and 2 - game is not purchased. Do you really think that with the retarded as hell activation requirement as stated it is going to lean more to 1 or 2 - regardless of the 'pirate' word.

ehlaren

ianmac47

Note to self: No more sarcasm or playing devil's advocate. Jesus.

ShirtGuyDom

Peeps, you need to keep in mind that some people work in regions where internet is either totally unavailable or very expensive. Why should they be penalized for not having internet access for a game that doesn't require it?

taka2k7

90% of the games I own are legit CD/DVDs. The other 10% aren't because of crap like this or because they're so old they aren't worth the 40 bucks the company still wants for them. Come on, a 12 year old game that isn't under 10 bucks now?

DashTheHand

mac-phisto

Xmar

This has already happened with Windows' Genuine [Dis]advantage DRM scheme. The servers went belly up for a day, and many Vista owners saw severely decreased functionality because their copies were magically considered pirated versions.

EPIC FAIL. :'(

blackmage439

cerbie

Assume I have, as I, in fact, do, have two alternatives: the PC game and the XBox 360 game. Both have interfaces customized for the relevant platform. The PC game has free DLC. The XBox 360 game has...well, it doesn't have an invasive copyprotect scheme. Which am I going to buy?

I was going to buy Spore. I was going to build a whole new PC for Spore I was that excited. Hearing this, I do not want to buy Spore. I'll get a Wii and save the rest of the cash for my retirement or something, when us old school PC gamers will sit around and bitch about how games have gone to crap.

Piracy is hurting PC gaming. Anti-piracy is killing it.

Slatz_Grobnik

On some theoretical level, I agree completely. Intellectual property rights are paramount, and people have the right to protect them.

But first, the notion of the Asian Menace is a smokescreen. It has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with getting a leg up.

Second, the right to protect is tempered by reasonableness. The point isn't that some anti-piracy measures aren't justified (though they may be counterproductive, but that's another discussion) it is that some are unwarranted or excessive.

Slatz_Grobnik

Perfect example, ask anyone who's decided to encode their license based software for web development with ionCube how well that serves. Need a better example? Ask Invision Power Services...

Papa Midnight

Nelsormensch

So yeah, this DRM shit is getting very annoying. I absolutely despise it and think it should burn. Atleast for Windows Media DRM'd material, I can strip it and keep it for my own usage. Hell, I might even re-encode it so I can play it on other devices. Does that make me a criminal because I want to be able to use the material I paid for the way I want?

Well if thats the case, then the system as it stands has gone to shit.

Papa Midnight

@pecheckler: I can't really say, "right on," but you definitely get it. I think copyright is a fine idea, but both sides want to have their cake and eat it, too.

The copyright holders want to get as much control as possible, including forms of control, such as most DRM, which would not allow use after support expires, much less after copyright expires.

Copyright now lasts far too long, and the penalties for illegal copying and distribution (sale is another matter) is far out of line.

On the other side, most of the people pirating are living in a culture and economy going more and more towards service. You pay for ongoing processes and support, and expect to be paid that way, yourself (most of us, anyway).

I won't deny that piracy can hurt, just as it can help. One of the best FPS games of all time, Starsiege: Tribes, is an excellent example. It flew off the shelves, but then got pirated out of the profits it should have reaped. Sierra's response to that is certainly a good bit of why Tribes 2 was never finished (I don't mean, "never released").

Finally, DRM like this does not stop piracy. By making the pirated copy superior to the proper retail, along with cheaper, anyone on the fence becomes encouraged to pirate.

However flawed, a system like Steam is probably the best compromise we have, at the moment.

I used to buy a game, then get the crack. Now, I just avoid the games altogether.

cerbie

Unless they say on the box (outside) product requires Internet connection and can be terminated at any time they are in for a ball of trouble.

I am a heavy game user but I for sure will not buy any game with this kind of DRM.

dmartinez

Why can't they change this to once every 30 days instead? Ten days is a bit too strict.

It isn't like it will make a difference to begin with. You know the hackers will overcome the need for validation anyway.

NameGoesHere

This just highlights the endemic misunderstanding in the music, movie, and gaming industries. That is, they treat the customer like a criminal because piracy exists. However, pirated copies of games and music often DO NOT treat their "owners" as criminals, requiring no arcane measures like CD checks and phoning home. The same is true for pirated copies of movies. The customer chooses the path of least resistance and the business loses out as a result.

Companies need to focus on their actual fans, who will buy the game, and not on pirates. As Galactic Civilizations 2 proved, there are people who will buy a game no matter what, there is a small minority of people who pirate and then buy the game, and there is another minority of people who pirate the game but had no intentions of ever buying it in the first place. These people were never customers, why sacrifice your real customers for them? Add extras to the game for all customers, increase the value of the game as time goes on, remove protection that just hinders legitimate buyers.

Beld

Installing this game means that you are installing phone-home software of dubious intent.

Put your paranoid hat on for a minute: you just installed software that does God knows what (clearly not with your best interests at heart) to sniff around your hard drive and send whatever it wants, in a secret encrypted stream which you must allow, back to its masters.

This is the PC that you do your banking on.

Think game makers are above destructive shenanigans? The excellent Consumerist coverage of the UbiSoft/Starforce debacle is instructive.

Hawkins

All this is is an attempt by the software publishers to finally write-off the expense of developing games for a heterogenous platform. Weather they DRM the games or not, they will claim either Piracy or poor sales as the reason for the PC's decline as a gaming platform.

I also wouldn't write off the PC as a gaming platform, not until the console makers open their machines up to indie developers at least. The PC will still be a viable gaming platform as long as there are game makers willing to make games in their free time and for a small chance of getting any money. Valve seems to be very comitted to the PC going so far as delivering community features like you get with XBox Live. I mean, I don't see the Xbox version of the orange box getting the Gold Rush map for TF2, nor the unlockable weapons.

MrEvil

the initial reason i switched was b/c i couldn't keep up with the cost of running new games (late 90's - virtually every game out required the latest $300 gfx card, new CPUs were being released about every quarter, RAM was undergoing some major changes & was expensive as hell, like 128MB for $150+). the industry alienated me by requiring more than i was willing to invest.

& although i've begun to buy pc games again (strategy games on consoles mostly suck), this is also more than i'm willing to invest. boo to you, ea!

mac-phisto

ThunderRoad

Obviously, they've chosen their most anticipated/popular title to sink a poison pill into. They wouldn't have done this with a third rate title. But still, software that phones home is software that phones home. EA doesn't respect its customers.

mantari

Bioshock was going to be the first fps I ever bought - but after the foofah about the DRM, I didn't bother. I already have games that can't be played because the authentication servers are gone - and once that's happened to you once, you don't fall for it again.

glitterpig

What you are sacrificing is PC gaming itself. You are not combating piracy. This kind of solution MAKES PIRACY WORSE. If you truly love PC gaming as much as you say you do, educate yourself on the issue and don't support solutions that will kill the industry! Srsly.

I don't think the question about your age was irrelevant, because it clears up a lot. I understand what it's like to be 18 and think you have all the answers. I stand in front of a classroom full of 18- to 22-year-olds every day and teach them ethics (including issues related to piracy). I also understand that at 18, brains are still developing and the ability to understand complex ethical and philosophical issues is deeply limited, as is the ability to see more than one side of an issue.

Mature thought, which requires the ability to see others' points of view, and to think through situations that are complex and multifaceted, rather than simple and black-and-white, develops over time, and philosophical thought is one of the last areas of the brain to fully "turn on." The difference between an 18-year-old and a 22-year-old in my classroom is staggering. The 18-year-old may be smarter, but typically doesn't have the nuanced thought the 22-year-old has.

I suspect you're not aware of it, because you're not processing at an adult level yet, but your comments do come across as very juvenile, and they do read like you're willfully missing the point. Now that we know you're 18, however, we know it's not willful; you simply are not yet neurologically and developmentally capable of participating at an adult level in discourse of this type. I am sure that as you continue to mature, you will come to understand this type of debate better and will be able to participate in it in a more appropriate fashion.

Eyebrows McGee

fostina1

We've let them bork the legal system into allowing the seller to take back whatever the consumer has purchased at any time they feel. This concept has been around since the early days of floppy, if not before then. Our primitive ideas of copyright and IP have made all of our software purchases meaningless, and by supporting these companies that exploit these ideas, you are agreeing that when you pay $60 for a game, you are paying $60 for a near worthless slice of silicon and plastic and a pretty box. If you've paid to download it, then you've paid for nothing. The misguided attempt to foil piracy by supporting anti-piracy measures doesn't keep the video game industry alive, it keeps the video game consumer oppressed. In fact, by their terms, you have more incentive to pirate the game than not to, because if you're not purchasing the actual software, and you don't really want that box and the blank CD/DVD it comes with, why pay $60 for them?

Of course, it's a legal stretch to claim that it's okay for them not to provide once you've given them money, even though that's what your purchase agreement says (and yes, it does say that), but they will do and are doing what they can to make that stretch.

chrisjames

On a broader level it is people like ShirtGuyDoom who will lead us to a bleak future of tethered internet devices and trusted computing where 3rd parties control what we can and can't do on our own home computers. What's the big deal, right? If we're not doing anything wrong we have no reason to be worried, right? WRONG. There's a certain value to our own privacy and that ability to develop new things. Forget about bittorrent, in a world like there might not even be an openoffice.org...

DRM is inefficient and only wastes money for the producers/distributors and frustrates legitimate customers.

GizmoBub

You know, for ever 1 copy of a book sold direct, NINE copies are bought resale or borrowed from libraries, and that model's worked for a century and more. A 5:1 ratio simply isn't that bad.

"I'd much rather let down a relatively small number of PC gamers 10 years down the line than let down every single PC gamer in a few years when I decide that PCs aren't worth putting games on at all."

Except that this solution -- the one you're advocating -- INCREASES rather than decreases piracy and makes the problem WORSE, not better. This system will do nothing to stop pirates, who will simply crack it and ignore it anyway, and punishing legitimate consumers for obeying the rules makes them STOP OBEYING THE RULES.

YOU are the one missing the big picture. Misguided and illformed attempts to stop piracy MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE. If you have a problem with piracy, don't support efforts to combat it that result in increasing the problem!

I mean seriously. If you're going to have an opinion on piracy, at least read up a little on the issue!

"I'm trying to help solve a problem." You may be trying, but you're so uneducated on the problem that your solutions make it worse. You don't combat piracy by creating more pirates.

Eyebrows McGee

I understand why companies put DRM on games, it's as easy as it ever was to pirate games.

On a side note, I suspect that the horrendous amount of complaining people did about Crysis' system reqs as well as Crytek's long history making console games - has more to do with them switching to console only than piracy.

StartingAces

Did the same thing with BioShock. I was about to order it but after reading about DRM problems I decided to simply get the game for free.

I understand companies exist to make money and I have no problems with it but I do have problems with jumping through hoops just to use my paid product. I do not care why the hoops are in place, I don't want to know. If someone wants my $50 they better treat me with respect because if they already think I'm a pirate I might as well get it for free.

Besides there is absolutely no reason for a single-player game to require internet connectivity.

2719

I really think that you're missing the big BIG picture in a general sense.

one of the things that drives me nuts in this world, or maybe it's just the interwebs...dunno, is that many many people have misconceptions about how the world really works in small ways that are extremely fundamental and ultimately incredibly important.

let me explain. many people, for instance, confuse "illegal" with concept of say a breach of contract.

meaning - people will say: "if your break the EULA, that's illegal." No it's not. It's not ILLEGAL. It's a breach of contract. It may also end up being a reasonable breach of contract. depends what the contract says.

There is no such thing in this country that says if you sign a PRIVATE agreement it is ILLEGAL to break that contract. I'm talking about illegal = police + jail. Not that you won't be legally found liable.

on the flip side, in say a EULA they can write WHATEVER THEY WANT.

repeat - they can literally write ANYTHING.

Like: "if you breach, we get you 1st born." they can say this if they want.

now, if you breach that provision, and they take you to court for your baby, the Judge will say: "Um..you can't own people in this country so your claim on the baby is void."

what the hell does this have to do with a stupid video game?

People are quickly believing that what perceived authority says and wants, IS law.

Like here on this site all the ID checking and receipt signing and the belief that many private entities have about what they can and can't control in the public's life.

so the BIG picture? People in this country (and elsewhere) are being "trained" or really slowly eased into to accepting the authority of private entity's SELF INTEREST.

THAT'S my issue. everyday it's something else. Something that we all think we HAVE to do to protect the self interest of a frickin business.

I personally don't even care,in a day to day reality, if my game phones home, it's that we do it because "hey, it's a small sacrifice we make so that we play games"

this 'sacrifice' keeps coming and coming. growing and growing. and in the end people are accepting it more and more without really even understanding what they have to or don't have to accept. I sure as hell don't know entirely anymore..

But of course THEY never have to sacrifice. It says so, right in the EULA....that they wrote.

pastabatman

1. "But, piracy kills games". Bull. I've been hearing this for a long time, well before the internet. To combat piracy on the Amiga and Atari ST platforms, the response from the industry was to try a bunch of anti-piracy tactics ranging from requiring players to input specific codes from the manual every time the game was started to messing around with the disk format to stop direct copies. The special formats caused a bunch of problems if your disk heads were slightly misaligned, and guess what happened if you lost your manual? Yep, you couldn't play the game. Pirate copies had neither of these problems, so people often chose those instead.

Part of the problem here is the general theme of my comments and lot of others here - it's the paying customers, not pirates, who are penalised. I have a lot of games installed on my laptop with no-CD cracks. Why? Because I don't want to have to take 20-30 CDs with me everywhere in case I want to play a game. So, not only do pirates demand the cracks, but so do paying customers - this stuff actually increases the pirate market!

2. Why would people who don't have internet want the game? Well, first of all not everyone's online. Some people can't afford it (maybe choosing to buy games instead of browsing online), or live in shared accommodation where it's difficult to spilt the bills.

Then, let's remember that this requires a connection *every 10 days*. Here's 2 scenarios where this is a problem. First, when I moved into my new apartment, it took nearly 2 months to get the phone line and broadband installed. Guess how I passed the time? Yep, playing games. Imagine this - my internet's out, so I decide to pick up a couple of games to give me something to do when I'd normally be online. I get the game home, it needs to be activated. Damn. Maybe I take my computer round to a friend's house to activate the game, but I can do this once, not every 10 days. So, I either take the game back, or I just accept the fact that I've been screwed. Not good.

Another example - let's say I install the game, along with a few others, to play while I'm on the road. Maybe my wi-fi's busted or maybe the motels I'm staying at don't offer wi-fi. If I forget the activation before I leave or the activation runs out while I'm on the road, I'm screwed - again the product I've *legitimately* paid for is rendered useless because the vendor assumes I'm a dirty thief.

3. Part of the reason why DRM was so unpopular on music downloads was because they allowed you to *less* with your purchase. I buy a CD (or download and MP3), I can rip it to any device I wish and I can resell or lend it to friends if I want. DRM tried to enforce "you can only play this music on authorised devices and never let anyone else use it". That pissed a lot of people off, and DRM is well into the process of being scrapped.

It's the same here. The pirates don't care about this - they see the DRM and activation as a challenge. When they accept the challenge and break it, the only people being penalised are those who *bought* the game. The people wanting to download it just have to wait a week or 2 longer.

Eventually, people get pissed off with this. They either stop buying the games with DRM, start pirating instead or they move to a different platform - remember it's *PC* gaming that having problems, not console games.

Pissing off your customer is not the way to keep your business going.

aphexbr

AstroPig7

At least the two best game companies for the genres I play (Stardock and Paradox) don't use any intrusive DRM whatsoever, just enter in a CD-key on install and you're good for life.

The real solution to intrusive DRM is to let those companies lose enough money to go out of business, or to stop doing the practice. Buying the 360 version is worse then doing nothing as well, as that will just encourage them to move to consoles, which are more profitable for them, and less for the consumer.

arstal

ogman

CyberSkull

Those who are going to pirate the game will do so once the cracks come out for it.

This check will do nothing to curb piracy in the least, and all those wishing to pirate it will still pirate it.

So who gets hurt from this? Joe Consumer and Sally Buysalot.. that's it. Legit customers are the ONLY people who get punished here.

WTF is wrong with people *supporting* these draconian acts of anti-piracy? THEY DON'T PUNISH ANYONE BUT LEGIT CUSTOMERS!

obamaramallama

On that day, this argument will no longer be relevant because of the almost unanimous Asian belief of community ownership. Just look at the Asian countries level of software piracy and lack of care for intellectual property rights.

A company that manufactures cars has to design the vehicle and than craft the raw materials, cut, shape, and mold the parts, and sweat and bleed to craft such a product to be sold... for each and everyone one. Each car must be constructed, requiring real work and labor.

Compared to developing an animate product, software is merely the "development and design period" of creating that product... nothing more.

Software requires a single period of work and labor to craft a product, which upon completion can merely be replicated at no cost. Each replicated product can be sold at any cost, yielding potentially unlimited revenue, and nearly 100% profit per sale after the cost of development has passed.

But for now; if you are a follower of the presumed western beliefs on intellectual property ownership, but still despise Digital Rights Management or any other form of anti-piracy, than you are either confused or are a hypocrite.

Mainstream standalone games aside, you always have an open source alternative.

pecheckler

xDimMaK

And do they even list an Internet connection as a system requirement? Or have a warning on the box that says you can't play an offline single player game without a working Internet connection? I don't have the PC version so I can't check myself.

xDimMaK

Windows has WGA, yet I'm running a downloaded copy of XP on my desktop right now because I wanted to have a fresh, clean, empty install rather than dealing with all the useless bloaty crap that came / comes with my / a new computer's legally licensed copy.

@ShirtGuyDom: Not really, this is nothing like current receipt checks. This is like receipt checks where once you get home, you've gotta call the store every 10 days to let them know that the milk, toilet paper, and that football you bought are still not stolen.

@ShirtGuyDom: Actually, that's pretty much why tons of places make you pre-pay, because of all the drive-offs that are stealing tankfuls of gas. Yet the gas station simply makes sure you pay before giving you the product. They don't then make you verify its authenticity every 10 days (or even, let's say, every day until the tank's empty, given that games last years and a tank of gas'll give you two weeks tops, unless you never drive at all)

@uberbucket: It's a shame he would't be able to connect to internet properly to play the copy you would legally buy him.

If only there were some way the game could be played without it. At least all those pirates won't be able to play it. Oh, right. Piracy will still exist. Guess you can always count on them to give you the proper service you shoulda gotten for your money.

NinjaMarion

The pirated copy will simply remove the check and only valid users will have to deal with this BS! Now even more people wont buy the damn game.

Same goes with all forms of DRM. DRM does not stop the bad guys, it only stops causal pirating.

People don't get it apparently! Pirates are not potential customers!! They never where going to buy the product in the first place!!! So so stupid!!

war59312

C'mon, one more shovel load.

TechnoDestructo

D-Bo

They shouldn't be screwing anyone of their customers over, they just need to be a little more creative instead of having their software 'phone home' every ten days.

I'm a software developer, I deal with this kind of stuff for every project I work on. If I would disable our software if you can't phone home after the tenth day due to connectivity problems, I'd have a big problem with my customers.

I think people who pay for PC games should be just as valued by the publishing companies as customers, they make money from us, and I actually expect -something- for my money.

If all of us get mad about all the DRM and stop buying games, PC gaming will die all the same.

Madjia

"Of course there are better ways. But I'm willing to adhere to this method to help fight piracy. Maybe that makes me the arrogant one then, eh? Maybe I want to keep PC gaming alive so much (because I love it so much) that I'm willing to let publishers use tactics that screw over some people."

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. So who's on the high horse?

ShirtGuyDom

VashTS544

It's commendable you want to keep PC gaming alive and well, but all the posts you make here, all revolve around one point, it's all about YOU!

As long as YOU can keep playing the game, cause you have internet connection, you want to keep PC gaming alive, so YOU won't be without games, screw everyone else. YOU are organized with all your keys of software, so screw everyone who loses one key. Come back in 10-15 years and let me know if you still have all your keys and CD perfectly in order.

Seriously, get off your high horse, only one presumptuous arrogant person in this thread.

(I also didn't catch that your comment about service men and women was tongue-in-cheek, you have no clue how jabs like that can hurt, especially since you get shit all the time)

Madjia

Tansis

I don't know how many of you are taking this seriously anymore, but if you are, um, I apologize for whatever of my input you took seriously.

As for the "instructing servicemen on how they should be spending their free time," I'm pretty sure the entire situation was in a hypothetical context, and I'm pretty sure my responses were entirely sarcastic. But okay, sorry (to TechnoDestructo, not your presumptuous ass).

But, I guess you're so important and adult that you have the right to call me an arrogant idiot (paraphrased from your actual wording, of course) and be "embarrassed" by reading my (what I thought were obviously) tongue-and-cheek comments.

ShirtGuyDom

To the games industry: each time you degrade the gaming experience (in-game ads, DRM, disk checks etc), you give me one more reason to spend my disposable income on something OTHER THAN GAMES. Never mind the PC vs. console debate - enough inconvenience in games will drive money to other areas completely.

Czum

pecheckler

I wrote up a long dissertation about why this kind of DRM is an incredibly stupid idea for Slashdot today; I don't feel like typing it in again right now.

Basics: I've got a firewall protecting me from the "rest of the internet". It blocks everything except what I've configured it to allow. When this game tries to authorize itself, it'll fail because it won't be able to contact their servers. Should I be required to reconfigure my firewall or disable it in order to play this game?

How about the internet connection that's built into the game? Is it fully secure, or are there one or more flaws that the bad guys can exploit?

And why should I accept any of this for a game that doesn't use a network connection for any purpose other than the software company's desire to make sure that I'm not depriving them of some profit? This only affects the paying customers of the company; the pirates will be using copies with the DRM bypassed.

So here's my choices: pay for a copy and open the door to hackers, pirate a copy and play without worry, or just say "screw it" and pass these products up. My choice: screw it. Your choice may be different...

whuffo

Drywin

I give this scheme no more than a month before it gets cracked. At that point, the pirates will be d/ling freely, while the legit purchasers will still be stuck having to phone home every 10 days.

Bottom line for me: if I'm in the market for a new game, all things being equal (playability, quality etc) I'll go for the non-DRMed game just so I don't have any POTENTIAL hassles in the future.

And I really do believe that the hassles will start soon after the games are widely shipped. I've made the mistake of buying DRM'ed music online; literally every time I've upgraded my computer, my licenses have had to be downloaded, which always involved a call to tech support for the music service, to get permission to reset the licenses so I could re-download the songs again. Yes, eventually I got the songs again at no further cost (except time), but what a pain. Now I burn them straight to CD, then rerip to MP3 (of course this introduces issues of loss). But I shouldn't have to do this! I'm a legitimate user and I paid for this!

So if I was to, in a moment of weakness, buy one of these DRM'ed games, you can bet I'd be looking for the crack ASAP.

Czum

This is one of very, very few times I've ever posted on The Consumerist.

Not all of the childish behavior throughout this thread belongs to you, but the large majority of it does and quite frankly it's embarrassing to read.

Furthermore, instructing servicemen on how they should be spending their free time displays a level of idiocy that is simply stunning. What started off as a rather ridiculous rant slowly turned into an insulting show of selfishness.

"Why are you playing games on an army base?"

Uh, what fucking business of it is yours?

pagancollective

mac-phisto

ShirtGuyDom

My eyes lost focus for a moment there, that was so stupid.

TechnoDestructo

I can see why companies would consider this unacceptable, that's all I'm saying.

I miss the old days when if you didn't to pay for or couldn't afford something, you couldn't have it. Seemed simple enough.

othertim

ShirtGuyDom

othertim

ShirtGuyDom

I've paid for something. I've exchanged my money for their product.

At that point, they have no further say in what I can do with that product.

It doesn't fly in any other industry, with any other product, why do we let it slide in gaming?

"Because we like games and want them to continue" is a bullshit answer. So is the belief that if the pirated copy didn't exist, everyone who pirated a copy of Hawt-Game-10 would instantly pony up the $50/$60 for it.

Starsmore

ShirtGuyDom

ShirtGuyDom

Oi, I'm going back to MGO.

Starsmore

You pay the gas station $50 to fill up your car's gastank. You've paid for that gas (paid for it before you filled up the tank, no less), and now it's yours.

Except now every time you want to start your car, you need to call the gas company's customer service department, give them the number off the receipt, and they'll activate the special anti-gas-piracy nanites that'll let you start the car.

But god forbid you be driving a Toyota, because the gas company doesn't like Toyota's, so the gas you paid for won't work in your car.

Or you're out in the boondock's somewhere, and you have no cellphone service.

Or their call center is closed for any number of reasons (holiday, disaster, weekends, etc).

If this shit happened, there'd be riots in the streets. This is the EXACT SAME THING as the DRM they are slapping on this game.

Starsmore

ShirtGuyDom

If I didn't already own a 360, I'd be happy that Bioware decided to port this excellent game to the PC (and provided I had a computer that could run it) and would happily support them with my money.

I honestly don't see how this affects me as Average Consumer.

othertim

You don't see how I turned my argument around on myself to show some humility? You don't see that. Or is that why you think I can't be for real? Yeah, admitting you're argument is perhaps based on your own arrogance is pretty unprecedented, no?

ShirtGuyDom

As already mentioned, if they stop supporting the game or DRM type, or the company goes under for whatever reason, you get screwed out of a game. One does still wonder for all those Windows XP users out there too. When support ends, how long till you can no longer activate the product?

I think the important logic is the only reason this game has "Internet Connection Required" listed on the system requirements is for the stupid DRM.

In the end, it only pisses off the paying customers as those who don't pay end up with a cracked version that does not have this "protection". Little overall was accomplished. Those who they wanted to keep from playing it, won't be limited, those who paid for the game will have to deal with any issues that arise.

To give some people a sigh of relief, there should be a set time period in which they release a patch to disable the protection. This would be within a likely normal period for PC games to stop selling, perhaps 2 or 3 years.

At least you could gain a little respect from your customers...

ShadowFalls

This whole thing is teetering on the edge of becoming not serious and totally fun.

@redkamel: Yeah, I don't so much have a problem with CD codes. But I'm all crazy organized so I, personally (this is me, mind you, not everyone else), don't have problems finding CD codes.

ShirtGuyDom

This has gone from mildly amusing to downright sad.

You are utterly clueless and not worth anyone's further attention.

uberbucket