MisterE87

Difdi

I don't know how the image thing is supposed to work, or I'd use it.
[www.pbfcomics.com]

Mr. Gunn

I fly all the time, but if any TSA personnnel do ANYTHING other than run my laptop through the scanner, that's the last goddamn flight I'll ever take. The inevitable fiasco will make geek squad look like amateurs.

Yes, I am an Internet Tough Guy.

Mr. Gunn

Snooping through my laptop, or digitally examining my orifices, without cause, are all LEGAL.

squat6971

artgarciasc

You're literally on a slippery slope with that kind of logic - but who's never used exaggeration to get a point across?

This is certainly a startling report.

BeccaThePromoMami

skilled1

Maurs

ngth

gomakemeasandwich

gomakemeasandwich

gomakemeasandwich

@DeeJayQueue

"Most border patrol goons barely know what a laptop looks like, and when something new comes along (macbook air) they freak out anyway. How will they even know how to access the data on the computer?"

Don't confuse the Border Patrol and the TSA. The Border Patrol works hard and is understaffed for their mission, and a number of them are killed fighting drug runners with automatic weapons. The TSA is just an agency (mostly) full of idiots, and are the people who were confused about the Macbook Air. Get your shit straight before you sprout your crap.

@BugMeNot2

"The part you are missing is that when you cross the border, the search is no longer "unreasonable". There are numerous exceptions to requiring a warrant for a search and seizure - for example, maybe you have heard of a Terry stop."

A "Terry frisk" has nothing to do with copying data off of a computer. It is an exterior patdown for weapons (and "obvious" drugs). It exists more for the safety of the officer than anything else. If you can fit a Terry frisk in to copying hard drive contents (as opposed to examining the computer to see if it's a bomb) without probable cause, I'll be very impressed.

and

"However, external evidence...especially your personal property, are free game under that amendment. [5th Amendment] They can hack into your computer and use whatever is on it against you."

Yes, except that to hack in to your computer, they need probable cause, which is covered under the 4th Amendment. There is no part of US law that says that you can go trolling through someone's computer looking for whatever, especially without probable cause, and the last time I checked, traveling overseas isn't probable cause to search my hard drive for nothing specific. Thanks for playing.

@mikelotus

"use a good password and by the time they crack it, you will be very old or dead."

Exactly. The TSA and Customs can have full access to my hard drive, but I doubt that they'll be interested in reading what's on it after it takes them 500 years to crack the encryption.

gomakemeasandwich

@WraithSama: except its for decisions that typically limit the government's power like medical marijuana in california. we have a liberal court and a conservative, activist supreme court.

@bizzz: that's a urban myth on frogs. water gets too hot, frogs jump out.

@res: use a good password and by the time they crack it, you will be very old or dead.

mikelotus

LionelEHutz

BugMeNot2

And your misunderstanding of the 5th amendment is kind of funny. You don't have to provide testimony that would incriminate you in a criminal trial. However, external evidence, like your voice, dna, fingerprints, and especially your personal property, are free game under that amendment. They can hack into your computer and use whatever is on it against you. Sorry to disappoint.

BugMeNot2

Haven't flown in a while - do they search your wallet(never had mine searched)? Wonder if they'd catch onto an SD card in the wallet...

"if you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" does not apply. You encrypt your data due to the risk of laptop theft.

Ragman

FedExing an entire laptop might be cost prohibitive, but sending the HD that way might be a better way to go. OR, start investing in things like SSDs and mail them since they are less volatile.

Another way to do it would be for your IT dept to encrypt the drive but not tell you the password for it, mail it to wherever you're going and then you have plausible deniability. If this became policy at a bunch of companies it would be a quick pattern to recongnize and after a few cases where people get detained that would stop real quick.

DeeJayQueue

Lambasted

LUV2CattleCall

FLConsumer

trujunglist

Trai_Dep

Sarge1985

Sarge1985

Cocotte

And of course a couple of hundred years ago talk of space flight and international air travel would have no doubt induced similar eye rolls.

Just because we can't do it today doesn't mean we won't ever be able to. No doubt rulings like this will be used argue the precedent. If it ever did become possible.

hatrack

rawsteak

im going to start carrying viruses on my laptop. sorry im too cheap to get some anti-virus scanner. it's my laptop and i'll download everything and anything myspace tells me to, so bite me!

:D sweet revenge :D

rawsteak

mtaylor924

ironchef

taka2k7

I envision a day where there will be "data download stations" at every security checkpoint at every airport.

After the delousing at the metal detector, you can take your laptop/cellphone, data stick, etc. over to a kiosk, plug it in, and the govn't automatically downloads everything on it for examination and archival. Try to sneak a micro sD card through? Punishable by 10 years in prison.

Remember, the data will be around forever. If, one day, the govn't decides to make surfing online poker sites a felony (like they do in WA state), they go back and mine all that data to find out who went to those sites. Bam! There's your probable cause for a warrant so the jackbooted thugs can come bust down your door.

Fortunately computers are becoming so cheap that I envision a kiosk that sells "throwaway" computers similar to prepaid cell phones. The degenerate freedom loving criminals are always one step ahead of johnnie law!

bizzz

I'll leave you to think about that for a moment.

Ghede

Squeezer99

While it's true that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is much larger than it should be, regardless of the increased volume of cases the court rules on, a highly disproportionate number of rulings made by the court end up overturned by the Supreme Court (often unanimously). There's a reason the 9th Circuit is commonly called the "runaway court" or the "rogue court".

Frequently accused of making activist and ideologically-motivated rulings, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has about an 86% ruling reversal rate by decisions that were appealed to the Supreme Court. I've seen that rate as high as over 96% in one year. Additionally, here is an illuminating paragraph from an article I found:

"According to dozens of legal scholars and former judicial clerks, the 9th Circuit has more than earned its reputation as a "runaway court." It has by far the highest overrule record since the federal judiciary was expanded in 1978. In one year, the 1996-1997 session, the Supreme Court reversed 27 of the 28 cases it considered from the 9th Circuit. This number is all the more arresting upon further examination, say both conservative and liberal legal analysts, because 17 of the cases were overturned by unanimous decisions. "When the Supreme Court overrules you unanimously, they are sending a message," says Arthur Hellman, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh. Given that today's Rehnquist court generally is considered moderate to conservative -- including liberal jurists such as Stephen Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg -- these unanimous reversals are most revealing about the 9th Circuit's distemper and disrespect for the Supreme Court."

WraithSama

chrisjames

Searching digital content to prevent it from entering the country is retarded at best. Since we have this wonderful thing called the internet its pretty easy for people to transfer files between countries without the oversight of the government. Only an idiot would be stupid enough have something like "check list for terrorist attack" on the hard drive of their laptop - My prediction, this new policy is going to result in corporate data being leaked and every once in a while catch some schmuck with kiddie porn on his computer. Chances of this having any effect on terrorism.....next to 0.

To me the argument of a laptop or cell phone being similar to luggage can only be made by people who don't completely understand technology. Your luggage won't give the government a list of every phone call you've made or received, every website you have ever visited, all the emails you have sent/recieved, copies of any personal information you may have laying around (online orders, financial records, diaries, chat logs, pictures, information on how to access your online accounts).

The shear wealth of information you can find out about someone from their laptop is frightening and a good reason that its absurd for anyone to claim a laptop or cell phone is similar to luggage...

iheartconsumerist

Okay. Question here. If the files are my "luggage", isn't the government keeping my files indefinitely a bit like keeping my property indefinitely?

It's property when they want to take it and an idea when they want to keep it. Convenient!

delphi_ote

All that aside, this is a monumental abuse of power, too bad the toolbox was into kiddie pr0n, otherwise the ACLU might have gotten involved...

asujosh1

I'm kind of on the fense with this case. I understand the 9th's ruling: customs can search you to make sure you're not bringing plants or animals. I'm sure you can make the argument that Custom's can't search your luggage for the same reason: privacy. Searching your hard drive for illegal content...I can see how that can make that logical jump.

But from a civil rights stand-point, it doesn't seem that far to jump from Customs to Joe Police Officer.

mike

res

Anybody else picture a gigantic government warehouse filled with row upon row, shelf upon shelf, of giant racks of laptops, sitting there until the end of time?

Think Ark of the Covenant here.

Zimorodok

Yes to all of the above. I believe it was the Washington Post that had a long article about this a month or two ago before the case went for deliberation.

Any electronic device with capability of storing files/data of any kind is free game.

Cellphone logs were specifically mentioned in that article of Washington Post, because someone coming back from a business trip to Pakistan was forced to hand over her call logs.

Pixelantes Anonymous

Another question: what's the rule on how you stand before and after going through customs, as in isn't it essentially US soil on one side, but not before customs? I have no idea about the technicalities, but couldn't they argue that if you don't give them the password to finish the search, they either confiscate the device or prevent you from passing through ... into the country? That, to me, is similar to detainment, but it's probably a completely different story in the eyes of the law.

chrisjames

The process and procedures for search and seizure of data haven't been disclosed, however. The information has been requested via the Freedom of Information Act, but the government is not complying (big surprise with our government, huh?). That's why I'm afraid that even if you keep data on your person, in encrypted form, it's just a red flag for them to take it away even if it is personal info and they'll never get it (they can't force you to reveal your password... yet. but even then, you could use the hidden volume function of TrueCrypt to at least say you didn't know something else was there).

fuzzycuffs

But would they bang you up if you had a bunch of backed up dvd's sitting on your hard drive? And will they do the same thing to foreigners going into the states?

Anto103

Pro-Pain

Good christ. Like your rights much?

jamesdenver

KleineFrau

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Phillip M. Vector

Another case involved authorities guessing the passcode (dumb user) and a different circuit court found this was equivalent to Elliot Ness blowing the door off of Capone's safe. Kosher.

Different kettle of fish when entering a country, but interesting. Anyone know more of this?

Trai_Dep

lesspopmorefizz

jamar0303

Oh yes, that's right. There was one.

ninabi

Of course, borders are different things. As noted, I think Customs can say, "You want in, give the password. Else we choose not to let you in." In THAT case, there's no invasion of the mind, "simply" coercion.

I welcome comments from people more knowledgeable about matters, obviously. I'm sort of ignorant on the particulars.

Trai_Dep

Does this douche bag realize that the internet is global? I could bring a laptop over with an empty hard drive and buy/download my "Microsoft Jihad Development Kit" (MJDK) once I get here.

100% FAIL.

axiomatic

Troy F.

cswinter

i don't have a laptop, but if i did & if i were traveling abroad, i would certainly have an issue with the government searching & seizing my data.

& what constitutes "data"? my cell phone records? the pictures on my camera? the log from my pedometer? where does it stop?

finally, who's protecting me from abuse of authority? who is in charge of checking the checkers? who makes sure data is not being misappropriated & manipulated?

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
-John Adams

mac-phisto

chrisjames

Froggmann

LatherRinseRepeat

Given the fact that it was designed to help protect the privacy of those living in oppressive societies, it is extremely telling that we are reduced to using it now.

copperheadclgp

And, why would companies like Toyota, Sony, etc., have their laptop-equipped execs enter the US? Would we allow US execs, holding confidential info for US companies, be ransacked by foreign security forces? Of course not.
Another case of HSA torpedoing international business.

Also note, they can copy all they'd like. The ruling says nothing about being forced to provide the encryption key. That's still protected, right?

Trai_Dep

stacye

graffiksguru

LetMeGetTheManager

CRNewsom

Some companies now give travellers newly imaged laptops to travel with and you access all your files on corporate server.

geoffhazel

Coven

DearEditor

the term "indefinitely" is a long time. our Canadian company was just requested by the feds to archive all (and i mean ALL) emails for the next 30 years. (long story)

thats 2500 people, exchanging emails archived for 30 FREAKIN' YEARS!!!

B1663R

kityglitr

Gridneo

You know what the main problem with this law is going to be from a PR standpoint? The fact that this dude was found with child porn. It's kind of hard to rally the troops when the case is predicated on a fucking pervert. I don't see as many people taking up arms against this travesty when it's going to have to be in support of this dude.

hubris

DHT

Let's see: encryption. That's it. Game over. But suppose customs gets clever, how about putting stuff on an SD card in a digital camera. No? Too easy? A firmware cloak on an MP3 player. Or how about mag tape? Get one of those old data writers from the 70s that writes to standard cassette tapes, then scrounge up a few hundred or so and tell customs you love the sound of them. Challenge them to have a tape player handy to test them (not that you couldn't mask it with analog, but that's part fo the fun, eh?).

chrisjames

So, they can take the document that describes our brilliant new business plan, and hold it indefinitely.

Thank you to all you IDIOTS who voted GWB in the second time, and the court that appointed him the first.

unklegwar

unravel

jusooho

I'm thinking used pregnancy test stick.

"Y'know, I peed on that."

apotheosis

ThinkerTDM

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In other words, go before a judge, show probable cause, and get a warrant. I will also take the fifth as my computer is password protected and,

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

(emphasis added)

Sarge1985

ThinkerTDM

Regrettably, it seems that our government is bent on seeing my company's financial data. Clearly, "your papers, Comrade" is not far off.

BigElectricCat

[www.truecrypt.org]

Pasketti

MelL

kylenalepa

Yeah, because some schmuck's folder of pictures of naked people is an unstoppable threat more powerful than anything the integrity of our American democratic system, our laws, and our citizens can possibly withstand, right? Sheep.

speedwell

Ill be looking forward to the data breach reveals thousands of users personal data story.

rougebob

And I'm sorry to see that you think that's what I said or implied. Try a course in reading comprehension.

speedwell

nequam

buzzybee

discounteggroll

Unfortunately, that's not an option for larger files (computer code I'm working on at work), as the article correctly points out. I work for a company that did recognize the threat of having a laptop impounded, along with some other drawbacks of having files shared between our offices (such as export restrictions on software), and the easiest approach we came up with was to send the programmer abroad and do all the coding there. That way, no code crosses the US border - be it on a physical device or over the Internet.

Jozef

@speedwell: Being put in a bleak room is enough to make you "stressed and vulnerable?" I'm sorry to hear that.

FreeMarketGravy

speedwell

speedwell

MelL

Yeah, got to watch out for those machines that read your mind and copy everything you have in it. *rolls eyes*

This is highly unreasonable, but it really weakens one's case when they present with with gross paranoia and elaborate unrealistic conspiracy theories about "searching one's mind" without permission.

FreeMarketGravy