Reading the info out loud for someone and having them read it is two very different things. Plus, we already know how your convulted mind works so why would we want to give you our info, it seems to me that if anyone would know how to steak an identity it would you.

you are retarded...good thin retards have rights too.

ryanv1978

I DONT HAVE I.D.

ahahahahahahaha

LibertyReign

LibertyReign

It is not MY opinion that freedom requires "CONSTANT VIGILANCE". It is a proven historical FACT. I will continue to pursue all endeavors which are pro-liberty and which support the rights of all individuals in my personal and professional life. Acts which go well beyond cashiers and IHOPS.

As far as this thread is concerned I will leave my personal life out of it and remain content with constantly disproving your statements and stripping down your arguments to brainwashed rhetoric.

By the way can I have your name, DL#, and address yet? ..and if you aren't ignorant then you are just in denial because I have already proven that constant submission to unwarranted violations of privacy result in not only criminal acts of fraud but a further invasion of privacy. Your comments suggest that you either ignored the evidence I posted or you are too stupid or afraid to recognize it.

No worries though my friend. Those who go along to get along should be able to surf through tyranny unaffected. You will take your chip like a good little sheep and hand over your biometrics whenever demanded.

LibertyReign

But I'll continue to believe what I believe, and you'll continue to be convinced that everyone is out to get you and that only CONSTANT VIGILANCE can protect you.

I think my world is a much better place to live in. If, ten years down the line, I suddenly find myself victim of fraud because a cashier looked at my driver's license for ten seconds, I'll be sure to think, "Wow, that random person on the internet was right."

Cashiers aren't infallible. There are situations where they have participated in identity theft. A ten second glance at your ID when you use a credit card is not one of them. TEN SECONDS. That is what I'm talking about. Not about walking off with it, not about writing down your information on a check, not about even carrying your card to a kiosk to ring you up.

If you want to continue to think I'm running around shouting my social from rooftops or something, have fun with that. You obviously want to feel like you're on a righteous crusade and make a bigger situation out of this than I'm even talking about.

If you're going to think refusing to show your ID when you use your credit card is equal to the Declaration of Independence or the overthrow of the Roman Empire, I'm sure you're life is fascinating. I have better things to do.

Meiran

I can stand on my invasion of privacy as a human being having been born with certain unalienable rights. I don't have to prove SHIT to you. My rights are given to me by GOD. Your opinion is absolutely meaningless. My identity cannot be stolen from my I.D. BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A FRACKIN' I.D.!!! That is why I CHOOSE to pay with MASTERCARD because I.D. MAY NOT BE REQUIRED!!! Again, you pay attention here as well as you do in every other facet of your existence which is why you are ignorant to MY rights, YOUR rights, and the "slippery slope" to which we have already reached the bottom. These invasions of privacy WILL get worse. It is not my opinion, and you WILL remain ignorant, unfortunately for all of us.

A police officer does NOT have the right to ask for my license. In fact, that is against the law. A Police officer has NO rights whatsoever outside of the one's afforded to him as a HUMAN BEING. If you understand that simple concept I wouldn't have to be schooling you on the fundamentals of human society. Reckless driving is a CRIME. While eating at IHOP may be a travesty of injustice, there is currently no LAWS against it. Your argument is baseless, ignorant, moronic and completely irrelevant to reality and to this situation as is your position on my privacy. I reiterate MY privacy. I can not be pulled over for reckless driving and have my I.D. confiscated because I DO NOT HAVE I.D.!!! I am hoping if I repeat that enough times with enough caps it will start to sink in.

A majority of the population will ALWAYS remain ignorant and docile. "A majority of the population" is what holds us back as a species, and "a majority of the population" will continue to be thankless, disrespectful, ignorant, and dismissive of the minority which will constantly fight to protect and evolve it. You will always be an ignorant conformist and you will never thank me or those like me for fighting for your freedoms and creating new innovative methods of thought and perception. I will never be thanked by the likes of you for contributing to the evolution of your entire species, and you will NEVER apologize for the retardation of said evolution. This is the story of mankind throughout it's history. It was a minority that stood on two legs and walked the great plains of Africa. It was a minority that sailed the ocean and mapped the world. It was a minority that sculpted the first sculptures, painted the first paintings, and built the first buildings. It was a minority that fought the Roman empire. It was a minority that fought the British Empire. It was a minority that drafted the Declaration of Independence and created the first ever experiment in freedom which produced the most innovative, scientifically advanced, powerful nation in the history of mankind. It has always been the MINORITY that is advanced, and the masses which are docile, uninformed and too stuck in their brainwashed ways to listen to the motivations of the minority.

I don't care what YOU think of the world. You obviously have not bothered to experience much of it. I have been a victim of fraud three times in my life. All three were as a result of an employee breaking the law while working for a merchant where I had made purchases. It is beyond my capacity to cure your ignorance, so you can CHOOSE not to believe that, because I am not going to show you the police reports. Unfortunately your ignorance, is YOURS to cure. I can only offer small tidbits of illuminating truth. You can still choose to keep your eyes closed.

Again, your OPINION of cashiers is irrelevant because REALITY has already proven you wrong. Not only in my personal life but in the NEWS stories I have posted here. Fifteen minutes on Google News would be enough for you yourSELF to prove to yourself that you are full of shit and obviously ignorant about the supposed divinity of cashiers.

LibertyReign

I don't believe cashiers and waitresses are too stupid to steal your information. I think they don't give a damn. I worked retail for ten years, I know I didn't care a whit about anything written on somebody's ID card. Most cashiers don't even LOOK, they're just asking to see if you present it or not. If you whip out the ID, they go "Look, they have it" and move on.

When you can show me an instance of a two second register ID check resulting in identity theft, I'll reconsider. But I don't think it ever has happened, and I don't think it ever will. You can stand on your invasion of privacy, that's a valid idea and I don't believe it but I can see how you would.

But protecting your identity? Next you'll be saying a police officer has no right to ask for your license when you get pulled over for reckless driving because he might memorize your address.

All that said, I still think if you have a problem and you're within the merchant agreement to refuse, then by all means refuse. That isn't going to stop most of the population from thinking you're overreacting and being bothersome. Why? Because we recognize that the cashier isn't some seedy identity thief waiting for the perfect idiot. They're just somebody who was told to ask for ID so they did, and you'll be lucky if they remember your name two seconds after you've walked away.

If the people who did these jobs wanted to be thieves, there are much better targets than a two second glance at your license.

Meiran

but why?

Cashiers and waitreses are all too stupid to steal your info. Thats why they are cashiers and waitresses. They don't possess ANY marketable skills nor do they posess any brain-power.

It is not an invasion of privacy. Afterall, there is nothing on your I.D. which can be used against you anyways. Are you PARANOID about some stranger knowing your home address? *rolls his eyes* You're a whacko or something conpiratorial like that..

You don't have a right to refuse to be I.D.'d when traveling and patronizing American stores. You should stfu and comply. No one wants to wait behind you in line, and THEY have the RIGHT to be impatient and demanding of their more than precious time.

It's not like it could lead to anything else. This is just your I.D. and just to prevent fraud and stealing. It's not like it could progressively get worse if you comply, encourage others to comply publically, and make it more socially acceptable over time.

[/sarcasm]

LibertyReign

Meiran

LibertyReign

John Russo has been a victim of identity theft. So when he was asked to fork over a photo ID just to be seated at an IHOP pancake restaurant, he flipped.

Is THIS too far yet?

I really HATE being right..

LibertyReign

LibertyReign

reading is fun and learning is too

LibertyReign

Secondly... you know what, never mind. Anyone who genuinely believes refusing to pony up ID for a credit card purchase* is a GOD-GIVEN RIGHT doesn't deserve my time.

sventurata

And, for the millionth time, if a merchant has adhered to the requirements of accepting a card transaction (the receipt is signed and the signature basically matches the card) then they stand to lose no money in cases of fraudulent transaction (with some exceptions).

On the other hand if the merchant fucked it up and card company is going to refuse the charge, then the merchant saying "oh, but our cashier checked the ID" isn't going to make any damn difference. Especially as that ID isn't recorded in anyway.

Yes. This is what happens in the really real world. This is why people like Ryan are completely and totally full of crap. The truth is that a lot of people are brainwashed into be good little slaves and they get scared when some of the other slaves start to rebel. They like not having to protect themselves or be responsible for their own lives so when people come along and threaten the master's authority they become defensive and start making up a variety of ridiculous reasons to comply and obey and force those around them to do the same.

LibertyReign

ASKING me for I.D. is insulting and obnoxious, but I am a very cordial and curteous patron. I will simply respond "No, THank You" and then as long as you take my card and stfu with a smile on your face it's all good.

Please do not imply that because some uninformed people bitch when you DON'T ask for I.D. then that means that you must DEMAND it from everyone else. Another silly, baseless argument.

You can ask if you like. It's a waste of your time and invasion of my privacy, but DEMANDING and calling the cops???? Quite another story.

LibertyReign

Which as far as I can see is all clearly outlined in the agreement.

So what I am saying is..read your agreements, adhere to them, SUCCESS!

LibertyReign

Amex is the best card out there if you can afford it. I get so many additional benefit from my amex card it's ridiculous.

ryanv1978

If the person in front of me at the store turned around during an argument with the clerk and said, "Did you know that they can't refuse me this purchase if I don't show my ID?" I would happily say, "Yes, it is in violation of their merchant agreement, you should ask to call Visa from their phone."

If I still worked at a store, I would only be asking for ID if the card was unsigned (and thus not valid) or if it specifically said "See ID." Most stores seem to operate on that principle. If my manager told me to check everyone's ID, I would inform him of this clause in the merchant agreement.

Everybody who reads this article now is empowered with knowledge to do with what they will.

Meiran

On the other hand if the merchant fucked it up and card company is going to refuse the charge, then the merchant saying "oh, but our cashier checked the ID" isn't going to make any damn difference. Especially as that ID isn't recorded in anyway.

sycophant

If you have see ID written on your card, I ask for ID. If you have nothing written on your card, I ask for ID. If that's a problem for you, then just sign your damn ID.

I really don't see why there's such a big fuss over this, but I do think it says a lot about the public at large.

Natheo

"3" does not count if the card was keyed including the CVV/CVV2. No imprint necessary. Hence why online transactions now require a CVV.

If only they'd stop printing it using the cheapest ink possible. I had to memorize it on my cards because my wallet has rubbed it off all of them.

RvLeshrac

Actually, they require your signed name or mark.

If you write "SEE ID" on your card, you'd better be writing "SEE ID" on the receipt.

RvLeshrac

Thanks for that Amex! No wonder you suck.

armishanks

Well good for you, you don't have to fight them. Continue showing your ID and not caring.

"and now we all know what we are and aren't allowed to do."

That's the problem is that we don't all know it, merchant's are misinformed, and it inconveniences us that DO care. Then the ones who don't continue to persuade merchants with misinformation that it's okay, and thank them for breaking their contract. If we all knew what was what, and every merchant in the country asked for ID, but didn't require it when you declined I'd be happy, and you could thank the merchant pretending they actually did something(knowing that in reality someone could just decline anyways). And everyone would be fine.

I don't mind if you feel free showing your papers to who anyone who asks, but don't push the idea off on merchants who think they're going to make me show them.

Lucky225

Also, I have updated my address. Which is evidenced by the little card hidden in BEHIND my license, which I can conveniently show to anybody that actually needs to see it. But they don't issue you a new license for an address change here.

As for the protection, you think it doesn't protect anybody to ask for ID. I think it does. The beautiful thing here is that we're free to disagree, and now we all know what we are and aren't allowed to do. You go on refusing to show your ID, and I'll go on happily complying by showing mine.

It's called picking your battles. I don't think this one is worth fighting.

Meiran

So you can write "See ID" on the back of your card and them bitch them out for asking for ID? Damn.

I don't complain at them for pulling it out and showing them. I actually thank them for asking!

david_consumerist

The only way they get screwed is through errors they make. Not correctly training their cashiers and not responding to chargebacks, basically.

So those who are getting screwed need to figure out what is going on and address the issues. Asking all customers who pay with a SIGNED credit card for ID is not the way to address the issue and will get you nowhere.

You can also supposedly get a chargeback for accepting an unsigned or "See ID" card, but I never saw that happen. Not very easy for the bank to find out that a card is actually unsigned unless the cardholder admits to it when asked, or it is retrieved and sent into the bank when recovered as a stolen card.

strwnderer

so uh.. if the merchant adheres to the merchant agreement:

a. they do not demand I.D.

b. they do not get screwed

...

LibertyReign

I understand that, I was pointing out the fact that Checking ID does NOT prevent chargebacks, just as you are pointing out. Case and Point, they're still getting Chargebacks even when they check for ID -- obviously verifying that the cardholder is the cardholder is NOT the reason why they're getting dinged if said policy is in place and they continue to get hit.

Lucky225

Yes they get a chargeback because of a stolen card. Any time there is any issue with a transaction (even something along the lines of a customer who "forgets" if they made a charge at your store), you get a chargeback and a request to provide a copy of the receipt. If there is a problem with the copy, you are charged back. If there was some other probem as I outlined in a prior post, then the merchant indeed does NOT get paid.

If the merchant provides a COMPLETE, VALID, LEGIBLE copy of the signature slip to the processing company by the DEADLINE on the copy request, they ARE paid.

strwnderer

Those merchants who ask for ID do still get chargebacks. They get just as many chargebacks asking everyone for ID as they do comparing signatures. I know this for a FACT based on a policy change at a previous meployer (as a result of a violation report we received for requiring ID).

The chargebacks are for the reasons I outlined in a prior post. However, there is another one that I forgot:

When a card is swiped and the card is DECLINED, the merchant is NOT allowed to run the card again. For some reason if it approves when run again, the merchant will be charged back and not paid. This was another source of chargebacks.

strwnderer

kylo4

The merchant gets screwed over in a chargeback when:

1. The sales draft is illegible
2. The sales draft has no signature or an unclear signature
3. The card was not swiped and they have no imprint of the card
4. The merchant does not respond to the chargeback by the deadline (between 10 days and a month)
5. The merchant accepted an expired card

All the merchant needs to do when there is a chargeback is submit (either via mail, fax, or even electronically with some merchants) a copy of the signed sales receipt to the processing company and they WILL be paid. Any merchant who is NOT being paid needs to find out WHY they are NOT being paid because THE MERCHANT is doing something wrong in this case.

strwnderer

LibertyReign

Wrong. They do discipline merchants. Repeat reports against a merchant result in a fine. Believe me, they do discipline merchants.

When you file a complaint, the complany goes to whoever processes for the given merchant. Whoever processes for the merchant then contacts the merchant and informs them of the violation. There are some cases where a processing company fails to contact a merchant (maybe they try to contact the merchant but can never get in touch with the owner/manager, etc.). However, a few additional violation reports do the trick in this case. It does take as much as 6 weeks for these violation reports to actually be processed but I've seen some where they stop asking for ID within a week of my filing a report.

strwnderer

@stacye: But... the store IS held liable for fraudulent charges. I don't pay for those charges; Visa doesn't pay for them. The merchant is left holding the bag. The only reason Visa won't let the merchant protect itself is so that they don't lose transactions/profits.

@johnva: Right. So shop at stores which don't ask for ID. "Vote" with your dollars. Why is this concept so hard to understand? I want to get the financial benefits of shopping somewhere they ask for ID. You want the privacy benefits of shopping somewhere they do not ask for ID. Clearly, we will have to shop in different stores. What's wrong with having that, provided we're notified upon entering the store?

Oh, and one last time since you said that you still don't "get it": Although marginal/unproven security benefits is different from no security benefits, my main point is this: the more fraudulent charges the merchant has to cover, the more they charge me for my cheezy poofs. I would rather let them protect themselves so that I can continue to clog my arteries at rock-bottom prices.

witeowl

strwnderer

LibertyReign

Yeah and your argument sucks. You just proved it yourself tha tyour argument has no validity. Cashiers are all dumb; too dumb to be criminals.

And my argument is still way better than yours.

a. I dont have I.D. because I am not required to have one because I AM A PATRIOT.(its not an act)

b. You are contractually obligated to take my payment without I.D.

Your OPINION of cashiers is irrelevant.

LibertyReign

My argument is that flashing an ID to a cashier for 1-3 seconds exposes you to no risk what so ever.

Perhaps you think your average cashier has a photographic memory and can memorize your whole ID in those 3 second.

I am smart enough to know that is not the case.

Now if they wanted to photo copy it, or wrote down my info, that's another story. But that isn't what we are talking about here.

I don't even take my ID out of my wallet when asked for it. I do not hand it over to anyone. I show from my wallet, and then I leave the story with no hassle. I have never been the victim of ID theft and I am quite certain that if I am ever victim of it, it won't originate from showing and ID to a cashier.

You want to pretend your some type of patriot, but your not. Your just deranged.

If someone possessed these skills, they wouldn't be working a register at Kohl's or any other store for that matter.

ryanv1978

*shudder* "you have nothing to hide, right"

Oh Biggie... those words just make my American skin crawl ALL OVER!!!

In my case I do not posess I.D.

LibertyReign

Oh so your argument is that all cashiers are honest people who will treat your information as securely as you would yourself. Yeah..good argument.. *not touching that*

LibertyReign

BigBoat

ryanv1978

I get the point, but then you are a liar and you are in violation of your contractual obligations, and if you were an honest, compliant business man, you would REFUSE TO TAKE CREDIT CARDS and not sign the agreement.

Is that unreasonable?

LibertyReign

LOLOLOL!

LibertyReign

But wait, why would a merchant willingly breach their contract? Perhaps they think their increased safety from fraud is worth more than the damages they owe Visa? [en.wikipedia.org]

It's simply a business decision and they're welcome to it. I generally don't show ID (unless I particularly want the item) but that doesn't mean the merchant can't ask, or even that they're "wrong" to deny the sale. Like those lovely "walking away from the mortgage" discussions we have, it's simply a business decision.

BigBoat

ryanv1978

to..

LOL

"hide everything on your ID but your name and picture and FLASH it"

LibertyReign

johnva

LOL!!! The libertarians have finally reduced your argument down to:

"STFU and show your I.D. with your fingers over the good stuff AND be QUICK about it!" AHAHAHAHAHA! You kill me Ryan!!

LibertyReign

You cannot refuse service for ANY reason. That is an obvious myth.

LibertyReign

I'll gladly flash you my ID, and I am quite sure you wouldn't be able to memorize any of the info other than my name and my face which appear on it.

It's all in how you flash. If you people are smart enough to figure this out then I can't help you. Your beyond my help.

ryanv1978

johnva

LibertyReign

and that comment is in compliance to your invalid argument that a merchant would:

a. become the instant victim of fraud once a customer upholds his right to pay without I.D.

and

b. The card issuer would violate their own agreement as well by refusing to compensate the merchant accordingly.

and

c. The merchant still has no recourse when the card issuer willingly violates its contractual obligation.

Like has been pointed out several times your argument is false, but even within the constraints of your false argument violating your own contract can be shot down quite easily on more than one basis.

LibertyReign

Ther eis a BIG difference between following your contractual obligations and purposefully violating them in order to protect your own profit margin.

BIG difference. If you can't see that then I really don't know what to say.

LibertyReign

BIG DIFFERENCE. If you can't see that then I really don't know what to say.

ryanv1978

The statement was "RIGHT to refuse SERVICE to anyone for ANY reason" and then you even added wether or not you could defend yourself in court with anything better than "cause I can" LOL. Commercial property is subject to certain extras that I do no thav eto put up with in my home. *grin*

LibertyReign

That constitutes a BIG difference? Mmmkay. I considered it small since you will be in court and losing to me either way, but I guess that is a matter of opinion.

Wait I just found another difference!

LibertyReign

You are restricted by state law, state regulation, federal law, and in many circumstances federal regulations. You do not reserve the right to refuse service for any reason you feel like. That in fact is AGAINST the law. I can post the U.S. code for you if you like, can you post your code? (No, because you talk out of your ass and argue jus tto argue rather than having any basis fo ryour argument) If you tell me what state you are in there is 50/50 chance I can find a few state laws making an ass out of you as well.

Remember! Nothing to hide now, what can someone possibly do with your PARTIAL address? *grin*

LibertyReign

A contract is NOT a law.

ryanv1978

Excuse me? I need to link you to that?

I could ask anyone to leave my property at anytime. No reason needed thank you.

ryanv1978

I'm lost here..

LibertyReign

You do not reserve any right to do that.

link it or you made it up

LibertyReign

once again...get a judge to hear that in a courtroom. He'll toss that case in discovery.

ryanv1978

If you can be tracked and traced everywhere you go and everything you buy is recorded who cares how you spell your name?

LibertyReign

That's funny I have one in my wallet right now that's embossed with "Netspend User".

RFID's have identifying numbers that can be read and traced to you. If RFIDs were in US Currency, they could be scanned as they were dispensed from an ATM transaction tied to your account number as the last person to obtain that bill. They could be scanned while inside your wallet and people would know how much money you have on your person, and the serial numbers of each bill tied to you.

And you obviously don't understand that violating a contract is a violation of law. A contract is LEGALLY binding, therefore a breach of it is illegal.

Lucky225

APFPilot

I do not need a reason to do this. It is my business and I reserve the right.

Now if you can prove that I made this decision based upon discriminating evidence, you might have a case in court. Good luck proving that though.

I thought you were trying to shop lift so I asked you to leave. End of story, and your not welcome back. Black white yellow or green it makes no difference, you would have to leave my store.

ryanv1978

and i never said that info is not of any importance, of course it is. What i have said is there is no way that a cashier is going to obtain that info from you flasing your ID for 1-3 seconds.

You can put an RFID into cash, but it won't be to show who "owns" the cash.

Credit cards don't have an owner? That's a good one. I am pretty sure I have a few in my money clip right now that I own with my name on them. Could have fooled me though. Who owns them?

There lucky goes making racial/religious comments again....lowest common denominator these people are.

ryanv1978

Yeah where do people get half of this crap?

They just hear it in the street or on TV and they think its the law.

Where's the joker who said corporations have the right to I.D. you? I bet he thinks they also have the right to refuse to service for any reason.

LibertyReign

hahaha yea, I'm just saying I can see the right to refuse service arguments coming in from your comment =)

Lucky225

[www209.americanexpress.com]

armishanks

WTF ARE you on about?

I was responding to the original article, not your little argument in this thread. I am not looking to get into a flame war with you, I just want to find out a definitive answer.

forgottenpassword

Yeah and where did that myth come from anyways?

You do NOT have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Posting a sign in your store that says you do does not give you that right either.

LibertyReign

Please don't add fuel to flames, here comes the "Right to Refuse service for any reason" arguments. Lets put the blacks in the back and refuse service if they don't like it.

Lucky225

forgottenpassword

REMEMBER!

There is nothing on it that is of any importance. It can NOT be used to harm you in any way

AND

IT IS FOR YOUR PROTECTION!!!

LOL.. You can't make this stuff up..you people really think this way don't you????

LibertyReign

It is common for you to consider something that is inherently incorrect to be "sensible" isn't it?

Like this goes way beyond I.D.s at checkout doesn't it? It's like a sickness..a result of being brainwashed by corporations your whole life.

SHOWING YOUR I.D. TO A CASHIER DOES NOT PROTECT YOU.

Sometimes if you put it in caps people like..get it..or something..

LibertyReign

Well I guess since merchant agreements are a-ok to break, it's a-ok for you to break the law and not update your address within 10 or 30 days or whatever the law states in your state.

Lucky225

Aww, what a silly argument. Yes I must be silly. Except for the fact that Europe has been trying, if not already, to get RFID's in it's currency:

[www.eetimes.com]

But it would be such a silly notion that the US would do something like that to track the movements of it's currency.

Credit Card's do not have 'rightful owners', they have authorized users, and authorized signatures that the merchant is supposed to check, Merchants have contractual agreements not to require ID. I know you can't see the fact that the merchant is violating contract law(an illegal act) is a problem, apparently doing something illegal is just A-OK if it's all in the name of "Security and Safety."

Lucky225

It does not protec tyou to show your I.D. Therefore you will have to redraw the line.

I don't mean to be difficult. It's just a fact and I am genuinely curious as to where the line is for people who aren't "unreasonably paranoid and difficult".

LibertyReign

Thank you Meiran. Good to know there are some people out there with common sense who can make sensible decesions. My faith in humanity is somewhat restored.

ryanv1978

link or you made it up

and you will need to provide evidence it was due to someone refusing to show I.D.

LibertyReign

APFPilot

In other words, this particular issue, I prefer they check a photo ID (where they can get no more information than my name, my social isn't on my ID card, my address is currently wrong on the printed card, so what are they going to find out, I'm an organ donor?) This does not present a security threat TO me, and does prevent one, so I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with receipt checking depending on the attitude and method.

The line for me is drawn pretty clearly at "Something simple that protects both me and the merchant." Both of these practices do that.

If they asked for my passport or wanted me to fill out an I9, yes I'd have a problem. If I got pulled over and was told to prove my citizenship (as some counties in Virginia are doing now) I would have a problem.

But showing my ID when I check out at IHOP? I have "SEE ID" written next to my signature.

Meiran

Cash has no definitive owner, it can exchange hands at any point.

Credit cards do have a rightful owner, and I see no problem with making sure that owner is in fact the person who is using them.

ryanv1978

just the numerous merchants that have told you already that merchants do in fact end up eating the chargebacks. I'm far from the only one...read the comments.

ryanv1978

Credit Card fraud scam involves fake IDs to make purchases^

[www.chron.com]

Register your Texas DL to gain entry to Rockets^ (no we don't have any reason to protect or DL info^)

[greenvilleonline.com]

Doctor's wallet gets stolen, thankful her current address wasn't on it.

No no reason to protect information printed on your ID, go back to sleep America.

Lucky225

Yes I know, be a good a little slave and "choose" where shop, and if you don't like a "private" store's policies, even if they are in violation of a legally binding contract, take your business elsewhere, even if "elsewhere" enforces the same illegal policies. Please spare yourself embarrassment in front of the other slaves and do as you are told or go home. Don't ask questions when they start putting rfid's in money and then start scanning your money and asking for ID to make sure you were issued that money from your bank account and are entitled to it, be a good little slave and take the 5 seconds to flip out your ID and spare the other slaves their precious time. There's no big deal here, no line in the sand, just bend over for everywhere you shop.

Lucky225

t325

For a credit card company, it's one of the risks of doing business. It's one of the expenses that gets deducted from their revenues. They try to control these losses in various ways - including penalizing merchants who have "excessive" fraud complaints.

What these credit card corporations do is make money on the difference between their costs and their revenues, just like the merchants do. Fraudulent charges are "normally" absorbed by the credit card company but if the merchant didn't follow the rules and policies they can be stuck with the loss instead.

Once again, it's just one of the risks of doing business. Just because a creative manager type decides that transferring some of the costs / risks to their customers is a good idea doesn't mean that it's right, legal, or in compliance with the rules and policies they agreed to.

Back to those merchants that are asking for ID - they've got two reasons for doing this. One is to try to cut down on fraud (but this really doesn't help) - and the other reason is to collect information that they can use to fill out customer profiles. Those profiles are a profit center, one that doesn't get talked about much but one that's mined every day at any major retailer. You have a business relationship with that company, so they can use your information any way they want to.

whuffo

See ID is not a signature, unless you intend it be one. If you intend it to be a signature, they still can't require it for the transaction as they are only to compare the signature. Secondly, an online merchant or self-serv(gas stations, red box movie rentals, etc.) aren't going to see the See ID anyways.

Lucky225

nursethalia

stopNgoBeau

When do YOU start caring?

No sarcasm implied. I would honestly appreciate an answer from anyone who says you shouldn't care about "small" things. At what point do YOU draw the line? When has a violation of law, contract, and individual liberty become too much for YOU to bare? I am genuinely interested in your response.

LibertyReign

dantsea

It's fine that you can get all up in arms about this if you want to, but honestly, is it worth caring about? I say no.

Meiran

That's Uniform Commercial Code, so should apply to any state that adopted UCC

Lucky225

Also regarding signatures:

§ 1.201. GENERAL DEFINITIONS.

(b) Subject to definitions contained in other chapters of
this title that apply to particular chapters or parts thereof:

(37) "Signed" includes using any symbol executed or
adopted with present intention to adopt or accept a writing.

(41) "Unauthorized signature" means a signature made
without actual, implied, or apparent authority. The term includes
a forgery.

Lucky225

Yea, I made comment in a previous post about a friend of mine who had Lesbian Crackwhore as a signature, even had it on their ID. The store wanted to give them a problem when they signed their receipt that way, asked to see the card again, then said it wasn't a signature, he recited the Statute for his State and volunteered ID when demanded to show that it was his usual signature as it was even on his ID.

Lucky225

Git Em SteveDave has a new Lego set

I agree with you that See ID can be a signature, but the merchant agreement also says to compare signatures, so you must sign the receipt as See ID as well, as that is the AUTHORIZED SIGNATURE(look at your card below the signature line it will say "AUTHORIZED SIGNATURE -- NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED")

Lucky225

I quoted the 4th amendment in it's entirety as it is printed on the constitution, that is hardly speaking on behalf of anyone. Further for your reading:

"The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statue must be in agreement with it to be valid. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail over the other. The Sixteenth American Jurisprudence, (2nd ed., Section 256), states:

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statue, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the land, it is superseded thereby." Dr. Jacques S. Jaikaran, author of Debt Virus

So just because the Patriot Act and Real ID Act were passed does not make it legal. Perhaps the ACLU did have a leg to stand on, I don't know that is not the issue at hand here. Court rulings also do not override the Constitution as it is the supreme law of the land.

But as pointed out the 4th amendment isn't even what is at issue here, the merchant is taking it upon the liberty of themselves to violate their own contractual agreements which restrict requiring ID in the first place, so it really doesn't even matter.

Lucky225

Git Em SteveDave has a new Lego set

Git Em SteveDave has a new Lego set

RTFA. He was detained and the police were called for Dine and Dash. Sheesh..can you be correct about ANYTHING at ANY time..just one single correct argument, please???

LibertyReign

It's a common misconception on the part of the public that a merchant will get their money if the purchase is approved.

Don't believe me? I can introduce you to merchants across the US who followed every procedure and got a valid authorization--and still got a chargeback from the CC company because of a fraudulent/stolen CC.

As for this paranoid business of not showing an ID--what exactly are people afraid of? Unless the person in front of you has incredible powers of observation and memory, the ONLY thing they are looking for is if the name matches the one on the card. They are simply making sure that the card you presented is in fact YOURS--and not one that your kid swiped out of your wallet to splurge with for example.

diamondmaster1

ryanv1978

Also, I never brought up jews, just compared ID checking to Nazi Germany's Fascist policies.

Lucky225

I have been following since the original thread. The reference was to being demanded to repsent your papers on demand. You are the one who harps on Jews. Somehow the idea of opressing people by forcing public documentation of there every move becomes inapplicable if you aren't Jewish. Your argument is absurd and I will continue to point that out.

I would like to take this opportunity to relate to you as an individual now as we NOW finally know where you draw the line.

Being forced to show your government papers: OK

Being accused of committing a crime and threatened with arrest: OK

Being detained while the police who are sworn to protect you are enroute to violate your god-given rights and take away your freedom for something you have ZERO guilt of: OK

Being burned in an oven: not OK

Well ok... at least you draw the line SOMEWHERE..

*speechless*

LibertyReign

I don't keep bringing it up, you do. I brought it up once to make my point highlighted, and I am not going to take it back. I was held against my will and detained while police were called for my refusal to show ID. If we don't stand up for our rights, they will be stripped from us in silence.

Lucky225

link or you made it up

By the way you can type identity theft into google and get a page of results which will explain the different types of identity theft and how they occur. Obviously glancing at someone's info and memorizing it without actually having it in your posession is one of the methods on every single website discussing identity theft. It's called "shoulder surfing" or "shoulder gleaning" or "gleaning".

I suppose the FBI is just "paranoid" and they "made it up" that people steal your info at checkout lines and at the bank. You are such a joke..

You can't be serious..

LibertyReign

ekdikeo

I think he's talking about "shoulder surfing" which has been used by people to record credit/debit card numbers and their pins (these people only need a few seconds and memorize the entire 16 digit number, exp date and a 4 digit pin, but I guess it's not a reality even though it's IN THE NEWS -- LINK: [www.telegraph.co.uk]
:
In reality, customers are in an extremely strong position, with almost all rights on their side. Banks are perfectly well aware that fraud exists, so don't be fobbed off by fatuous assertions to the contrary. Cases of shoulder surfing, where someone watches you tapping in your pin and then "borrows" the card are well-documented. So are instances where the data is copied and used to produce "cloned" magnetic stripe cards. However, cloned cards can only be used abroad, and the banks don't accept the "chip" technology has been compromised.

Shoulder surfing is also used to memorize calling card number pins (and their dial in phone numbers), but apparently the fact that someone might shoulder surf your ID/DL is beyond your comprehension.

Lucky225

Now when I pay in cash, no I have hardly ever been asked for my ID, short of purchasing shells for my shotgun. Which I expected my ID to be asked for there as well as any guns I buy. I expect that to happen though.

david_consumerist

The worst you can do is threaten to complain to Visa about them. It's not like you can call the Visa Merchant Agreement Police to get back the card they're holding hostage.

esd2020

Buran

and listen...drop the Jew thing. It was lucky who compared an IHOP waitress asking for ID to Jews in Germany.

It wasn't me. I was far from the only person who was offended by it. I am jewish, and that offends me to make the two equal because they are not even close.

The day the IHOP waitress takes you in the back and puts you in the oven is the day it's the same.

Lucky stopped making the reference because he knows it makes no sense and is offensive. But he did say it, and he did mean it, and it IS laughable.

ryanv1978

Link or you made it up.

ryanv1978

Althought I didnt aggree with you earlier on the 4th amendment stuff, what you just dide...THAT. WAS. HOT!

Wormfather

I'm not the ACLU, you'd have to address them.

Lucky225

Plus, that established law regarding signatures only works if you take it to court. In a private dealing, unless both people agree without being forced to by a judge, they can decide what constitutes a valid signature.

donkeyjote