PedroNerq

rikkus256

Because corporations declaring themselves the police and inventing their own "policies" or laws in order to grant themselves police powers is called FASCISM. 1930's Italy/Germany. Look it up! It's bad enough when the cops pretend they have the right to demand I.D. Now Joe Shmoe at the white trash motel and diner gets to pull my docs?!?!?!

Hey can I get your DL # shadowkahn? I want to make sure you aren't posting under another person's handle!

Let me stop defending my freedoms for once second and in the interest of learning and understand ask you a very simple question which I am genuinely interested in hearing the answer to.

At what point does it become NOT ok for you to present your papers? Where is the line for shadowkahn? No sarcasm intended. I really want to know.

LibertyReign

"Can someone treat me like the dummy I doubtless am and explain to me why a merchant requiring proof that you're not using a stolen credit card ( or at least that you were persistant enough to make a fake id to go along with that credit card) is a bad thing? Seems to me that a merchant who checks your ID is making sure your money stays with you, instead of the thief."

What happened to "Innocent until PROVEN guilty"?

You speak as though merchants should FIRST treat us as though we are ALL using stolen cards.

Get your head straight.

Dakine

What can I say I'm passionate about this topic. I once made Wal*Mart call visa on my cellphone on speakerphone and have the rep tell them that they can't require photo ID. The manager got all snotty "So as long as the card is signed anyone can just come in here and use it and I have no idea if that is the actual person's card or someone else?"

"That's correct ma'am, as long as the card is signed you are only to compare the signature on the card to that on the receipt, if you feel the signature does not match you can call us with a Code 10 call and we will verify the customer for you."

At which point the managers jaw just dropped and told the cashier to just ring me up.

Lucky225

"I meant you have no excuse for giving your family name up.

That's fine though, we have already established who wears the pants in your marriage. It's VERY clear.

I really hope her future isn't tied to you being a success...hopefully she has something going for her.

I know it was her choice to show it, it was a good choice considering the scene that you were probably causing. She was embarrassed and wanted to leave, you wanted to prove a uselsss point. Keep doing that and I bet you end up in divorce court sooner rather than later."

Yeah you should just learn how to be a good little slave and do what your told by the corporations so that you shall not be EMBARASSED in front of the other slaves. Lets pay no attention to the fact that your wife filed a complaint against the merchant for being humiliated, violated, and treated like a criminal. This is all YOUR fault because you refuse to submit to the will of the all-mighty cashier.

When did American men beocme such spineless cowards who will sacrafice their liberty and integrity to truth in order to be saved the slightest embarassment or inconvenience? People like ryan make me sick.. Who's WIFE are YOU, Ryan?

LibertyReign

Buran

First of all I'm adopted, so I wasn't giving up any family name. The last name of my foster parents was not exactly a last name anyone would want as their last name. Your assumptions on my marriage also have no bearing on the argument at hand and nothing to do with the issue, the fact that you have to try to take stabs at me like that, only shows that you have no argument.

Lucky225

AMEN!

LibertyReign

That's fine though, we have already established who wears the pants in your marriage. It's VERY clear.

I really hope her future isn't tied to you being a success...hopefully she has something going for her.

I know it was her choice to show it, it was a good choice considering the scene that you were probably causing. She was embarrassed and wanted to leave, you wanted to prove a uselsss point. Keep doing that and I bet you end up in divorce court sooner rather than later.

ryanv1978

I have no excuse? Just because you feel contempt complying with facist policies that are in obvious violation of contract to begin with doesn't mean *I* don't have an excuse not to show my ID as it is my choice not to show it, and my right not to show it. They can not force me to show it. They didn't force my wife to show it, it was out of choice that she did it. Just like it was out of choice that the merchant violated their contract and is now facing fines from MasterCard.

Lucky225

"No. You have no "right" not to show your ID. That right is not afforded to you anywhere."

*BUZZER* WRONG!

I'm not sure which make me want to vomit more:

1. Your inept ability at forming a valid argument

2. Your complete ignorance to your divine rights as a human being

or

3. The fact that you are calling someone else uninformed on the subject of one's rights.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..

"it's not your right to not show ID because, as I said, there is no such right afforded in the first place."

The United States Senate would disagree. I am 27 years old. I own property and I am a father. I have no identification whatsoever as it is my right as an American to remain PAPERLESS.

"And criminals? "A person guilty of a crime." Unless you are detained and/or brought before a judge, you are not being treated like a criminal. You are FEELING like you are being persecuted, which is your own problem."

Being threatened by a corporation to show your papers or be arrested for theivery is far beyond one's PERCEPTION of being persecuted. If you had bothered to RTFA you would have noticed he WAS detained AND threatened with arrest. Again you are wrong and your argument is foundationless. Good day sir.

LibertyReign

Point is, someone smartened up and resolved the situation. It sure wasn't you! I'll give some credit to your wife for being smart enough to pay and leave. Weather she used your card, or cash I don't really care.

I hope her last name was Kennedy, or you really have no excuse.

ryanv1978

According to these guys we should just EXPECT that retailers don't know any better and be prepared to show our papers

Lucky225

rmuser

Fascism has NOTHING to do with JEWS. Race has no implication in this story or in these comments. If you had any intellect, knowledge or experience to back up your side of the argument you would not need to resort to creed or religion in an appeal to the lowest common denominator.

LibertyReign

The comparison to Nazi Germany is 100% valid as the Nazis represent the most recent and provocative form of a Fascist government which is just another word for corporatism. When corporations grant themselves police powers and/or cooperate with government it is the very frackin' definition of Fascism and the epitome of what the Nazis tried to accomplish. Your ignorance of society, merchant agreements, The Bill of Rights, The 4th amendment, and of history does not make the comparison any less valid. It is your lack of knowledge on the subject which leaves a gap between the comparison and the situation in question. You are simply uninformed.

LibertyReign

Now you have the"RIGHT" to demand my government issued documents?!?!?!? So not only would you have our government acting like the Nazis but you declare yourself an SS officer? You have no right to demand my I.D. under any circumstances whatsoever. The police do not even have this right as it is a violation of the 4th amendment of the United States Constitution, and American citizens are not required to have I.D. It is MY right to travel wherever I want, and make purchases wherever I want WITHOUT carrying any form of identification WHATSOEVER. I am deeply saddened when it is considered common courtesy to violate someone's civil rights. It is not my opinion that this is a big deal. It is the very foundation of our society and when you violate my rights under the pretense that it is "no big deal" I suggest that you read what the other "troublemakers"(Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Sam Adams, George Washington) had to say on the issue. You can start with The Federalist papers and end with The Constitution of The United States of America. Anyone who thinks that standing up for your unalienable rights is a waste of time makes me sick, and I declare that you are an imperialist and what is wrong with today's society.

I wont even go into how ridiculous it is to suggest that there is any validity in violating your own merchant agreement, or that I.D. checking has anything to do with protecting the consumer when a MasterCard is being used. It is no surprise that the sheeple willing to go along to get along are not only grossly uninformed on their rights, their contracts, and their responsibilities, but also on any other issue which affects society as a whole such as privacy rights, security of personal information, identity theft, consumer advocacy, and/or fraud prevention.

LibertyReign

Lucky225

That's all I needed to know man...any issues with your family should just be dealt with by the one who wears the pants in your family, which clearly IS NOT YOU.

Just let your wife pay every time, you just order your stuffed french toast and ask for extra powdered sugar. Things will go much smoother for you that way.

ryanv1978

Mastercard is already ensuring that my money stays with me - I have zero liability if my card is stolen and used fraudulently. Zero. By law, the maximum liability I could have is $50.

So no, they're not protecting me by demanding my ID - they're trying to protect themselves. And they're doing it in a way that almost certainly violates their agreement with the CC company, as well as inconveniencing me, invading my privacy, and opening me up to the risk of identity theft.

Yes, I know that the risk of identity theft is very small in these circumstances. But given how absolutely enormous the consequences can be, it seems reasonable to guard my private information pretty tightly. Hell, identity theft can lead to you losing EVERYTHING you own, including your house. Even worse, imagine if someone used your stolen identity to buy child porn online. It's real, it's a problem, and it DOES happen. Even a miniscule risk is too much if you can potentially lose everything , and avoiding that risk, especially when it is both unnecessary and against the rules, seems pretty sensible to me.

So call me paranoid if you like, but a merchant who has accepted the MasterCard rules is not seeing my ID. It's none of their business where I live, when I was born, what my SS# or drivers license# is, or what my height,weight, eye color are or used to be. If they want to make sure that it's really my card, they can compare the signature on the card to the signature on the receipt, just like they said they would when they told MasterCard they wanted to participate.

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Lucky225

Yes, she was an authorized user BEFORE i got married, and I took her name.

And I *DO* KNOW that EVERY merchant's contract explicitly lets the merchant know they will not be allowed to require photo ID for the transaction, as it's in the merchant's rules that the Acquirer must make sure the merchant doesn't violate the contract.

Master Card Merchant Rules
7.1.6 Card Acceptance Requirements

Each Acquirer must ensure that:

f. a Merchant does not refuse to complete a Transaction solely because a
Cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a
Card at the POI refuses to provide additional identification information,
except as specifically permitted or required by the Rules;

Lucky225

an embarrassed wife and a potential visit from the police.

For all you know, maybe Kohl's has a different merchant agreement with Visa/MC that you are not aware of. They certainly don't have to disclose their contracts to you.

I can reason very well. I know that flashing my ID to someone for one second puts me at NO RISK. I know that not agreeing to show the ID will most likely result in some hassell for me and a gigantic waste of time.

In the end though, your wife smartened up and presented ID. Did she not? How did her name match on the ID and the car? Did you take her name?

This would make lots of sense to me.

ryanv1978

You're the one who can't seem to REASON. It's against the merchant rules, PERIOD. That's reason enough, regardless of weather or not a person has ID, want's to show it, or not. The merchant can not require it, period. That *IS* reason. End of Story, no further explanation or reasoning needed. You can not bypass a contract you have with your bank just because you 'reason that it ought to be that way.'

Lucky225

Yesterday Lucky was claiming that he was being treated like a jew in WWII era Germany.

Imagine that? A group of people who were lead into gas chambers is equal in his mind to being asked for ID so the store can make sure someone else isn't using your card.

Genocide being compared to this is a riot.

He has stopped that comparison though, so maybe he got a history lesson.

Lucky - you just must rub people the wrong way, I bet it's your attitude that you take with them. That's why you had a stalker...and I have friends.

ryanv1978

You are not liable for stolen purchases, they are not protecting anyone but themselves. Most of in-person credit card fraud is done with counterfeit cards that can have any name embossed on it (i.e. the crooks name, with his ID). Oh yea, and they're NOT ALLOWED TO REQUIRE IT IN THE FIRST FRICKEN PLACE.

Lucky225

shadowkahn

Which is against the merchant agreement in the first place, RIGHT?

Lucky225

This is a stupid policy and the people fighting this make no sense. The cashiers are simply glancing at the name on your card and the name on the driver's license and MAYBE the photo as well. Which is terrible, right?

anatak

Lancents not just for diabetics any more! We need your DNA to verify this is your card silly!

Lucky225

Sad but oh so true

Dakine

Don't sweat it - they'll just start indoctrinating the next generation that it's perfectly normal and routine:
[www.boingboing.net]

TinyBug

Yep. Out here in the islands we say, you don't have to outswim the shark. You just need to outswim the guy next to you. ;-)

Dakine

Agreed 100%. We are all vulnerable, but you don't have to be the fastest runner, just faster then the guy behind you.

Lucky225

Yeah, a good stalker will certainly change your perspective on privacy and security. Maybe I'm a little paranoid about it, but it's not something I ever want to go through again.

My house now has frosted glass, motion sensors, fingerprint locks, dogs, fencing with locked gates, wireless alarm system and a massive safe bolted to the concrete foundation. My credit files are frozen. My assets are in a trust. I use a P.O. Box. And I don't volunteer my ID to low wage clerks. The very fact that they hardly make any money makes them a prime candidate in my opinion for thievery.

Over the top? Possibly. But give a thief a choice between cracking my security measures or going after ryanv1978, they aren't going to choose me. Crooks will always go after the easiest target.

Dakine

When I walk past the door agents at any store except Costco (I believe it states in your membership agreement that you must show receipt), they ask for my receipt and I simply say, "No you may not," and I keep walking.

dale3h

Serpephone

There's this club in Arkansas that is horrible. Because it's a dry county you need a membership to get into the club. They want your fingerprint and 'the last 4 of your social'(when you go back to the club they scan your fingerprint for entry and ask for last 4 of your ssn to verify you're actually you) Needless to say I took my business across state lines to Missouri :)

Lucky225

Dakine

We got something in common, I have been stalked as well, with harassment on par as yours, including SWAT teams kicking down family members doors from the stalker placing false 911 calls with spoofed Caller ID. This is not some FANTASY. This is what real people were doing with my information. When you have the SWAT team busting in your house all because some lunatic has your address and wants to harass you, you tend to get defensive about your personal information.

Lucky225

It has nothing to do with "Being American" or any of that nonsense. I don't remember seeing anyone in here claiming to be "a patriot".

Personally, I think our country is seriously screwed up. I've been slowly planning over the last year to finally move out of this stinking country for good. But that's another issue.

Nobody is trying to be a hero. We're simply protecting our privacy from people who have NO BUSINESS with their noses in it. It's your right to give away any information you choose about yourself. It's MY right to protect mine.

You don't have to like it or agree with it. I certainly don't agree with you, so I don't expect you to agree with me.

I also protect my public information, such as mortgage/real property records from nosey people by putting everything I have under a trust.

For 2 years a had a stalker. He repeatedly called my neighbors, family across the country, sent police to my house, and on and on and on. No one can ever tell me I'm being paranoid. Shit happens. And if it hasn't happened to you YET, it will eventually. One day you wake up and your credit accounts are compromised for thousands of dollars. Oops. Must be paranoia.

The big point you can't seem to grasp here is, MY information is MY business. That's the end of that story. There is no addendum, no provisional attachments, no exceptions, and no excuses to that. You can fling your front door open and let the general public go through your tax records for all I care. Nothing to fear as long as you're not hiding anything, right? Because nobody would ever think of using your information for their own gain now would they?

Wake up. The world is a shitty place without forgiveness or mercy. The strong survive and the weak are eaten by the wolves.

Dakine

California Department of Corrections isn't in Texas, so can't exactly transfer.

Lucky225

No people like you who think WE owe the merchants something because they say so and we should just bend over and take it because they say so. That's what's wrong with this country. Next it will be fingerprints required on every transaction and you'll be whining that someone's making a scene when they don't want to put their fingerprint on the receipt. "What harm could possibly come from putting your fingerprint down?"

Lucky225

keep worrying about retired old men and ihop waitresses with 2 teeth. They are THUGS.

ryanv1978

i have moved out of state...twice in fact...and my insurance moved right along with me. I work for a real company...who gives good benefits.

good try though...

ryanv1978

it just says a lot about you and your financial intelligence that you choose to pay out of pocket while also paying for coverage.

so tell me...what harm comes from you showing a receipt? will they also break into your home? steal your identity? you people are exactly what is wrong with this country. whiny little bitches who thinks the world owes you something.

ryanv1978

You've obviously never moved out of State. Blue Cross/Blue Shield California doesn't work in Texas buddy.

Lucky225

that makes very little sense.

@Dakine:

so let me get this straight? you pay for health insurnance, and then choose to go to the hospital and pay 10k for services? That's probably the dumbest thing i have ever heard in my life. why not cancel the insurance if your going to do that, you could save yourself some $$.

I don't expect you to understand because your the guy paying for things you don't use and trying to spin it off like your bright for it.

get a clue.

ryanv1978

That's exactly the problem is when you're the dick because THEY'RE not following their own merchant rules. Oh god, the poor merchant, Mr. merchant couldn't possibly be the dick when he breaks the rules, Mr. Merchant has fraud to worry about!

Lucky225

No I don't have insurance because I just moved, and recently I had to go to the ER because I got the flu. They didn't ask me for any identification or any personal information. They simply sent me a bill in the mail, which I later paid over the phone, with my credit card.

Lucky225

keep fighting the good fight....your a true American heroes.

a store can refuse to serve you for pretty much any reason they want. now stop your complaining and pay with cash everywhere you go if you dont want to run into this trouble or deal with the fact that your going to look like a dick.

ryanv1978

I don't expect you to understand because you're too busy standing in line to show your receipt a retired guy making $5 bucks an hour.

Dakine

no insurance? You had better hope you never need anything serious done or you will be crushed under debt for the rest of your life.@TinyBug:

Yep, I will show my reciept. You can't tell me what bad could come from that too. You people just like causing issues and making scenes. If it gets you off that ones thing....but don't act like your some patriot standing up for whats right, because you are not.

ryanv1978

Wrong, I don't have insurance, they bill me.

Lucky225

Hospitals cannot refuse you treatment if you need it. You don't have to give them your info if you don't want to.

Dakine

"See ID" is useless. Anyone can use your card online and no one is going to ask to see your ID. And it takes less than ten minutes to do that.

Dakine

LibraryGeek

You seem pretty insistent that somebody needs to offer some suitably realistic and likely (to YOU) bad outcome to justify refusal. This is an odd position. Outcomes are irrelevant. The only two relevant facts are

1) I don't have to, and
2) I don't want to

I'm sorry that this isn't good enough justification for you, but it's good enough for me, and it's good enough for MasterCard.

I'll bet that you're also in the "Why make a fuss, just show them your damned receipt already" group, too.

TinyBug

Dakine

LibraryGeek

they don't ask you for it because you give them your insurnace card, and once they pull you up...they have all that info in the system.

Unless you go to the hospital and pay cash.

I do live a charmed life.

ryanv1978

"I am not a number, I am a free man!" - Iron Maiden

Dakine

regarding hospitals, Everytime I've gone to the ER they don't even ASK me for my ID, and I don't provide them with SSN(and they don't care that I'm not providing it either). Seems like they get patient's privacy a lot better then a retail store where you're buying a $25 purchase.

Lucky225

"better not go to the hospital anymore...you might get your identity stolen. better refuse them ID as well."

Last time I was at the hospital, I did not give them any ID.

Dakine

Just looking at the first page gives you the explanation. If you can't understand that someone can remember the information on that ID until you walk away and then quickly right it down, you never will. Memorizing someone's address off of an ID is not exactly that hard to do, especially if it's a local address and the clerk is familiar with the street name. So the address would be rather easy information for the clerk to retain, they could memorize your DL# rather easily, and write it down when you walk away, then just look at the merchant receipt if they've forgot your name already. Showing your ID is about compliance, not security. Not showing it does protect your privacy. My address, DL#, DOB, etc.. is none of your business and has nothing to do with the CC transaction.

Lucky225

"so far we have complete identity theft and then armed home invasion. Neither of which are based in reality."

well, I guess you have a very charmed life. Because both of these things happen every day all over the country.

Dakine

How do you pretend to know the reason those houses were or were not selected for the hit? One of them was an old man. He was hospitalized because of what happened. It's entirely possible that some cashier/part-time-thug looked at his ID address, knew he was feeble and defenseless, went there after work with his pal, beat the guy into submission, and robbed him.

Crooks may not be degree holders, but they're not altogether stupid either, and they don't like surprises. They aren't going to bust into a place in the middle of the day if there's even a remote chance of someone being there that is capable of fighting back.

So don't discount any possiblity why those houses were or were not selected. Blatant attacks like this are rarely "random".

And yes, I agree. The gated community fees we pay are a total ripoff. They do more harm to the actual residents than any good we get out of it.

Dakine

wow everyone....did you hear that? now that makes some sense....better not go to the hospital anymore...you might get your identity stolen. better refuse them ID as well.

Keep eating pancakes soaked in sugar and when you have a diabetic foot ulcer you can choose not to show ID for them as well.

ryanv1978

isn't a good answer. I know you don't have to show it, but what bad comes from showing it? 2 seconds isn't even enough time to read all the info.

lucky keep taking my words out of context all you want. Your the one who embarrassed your new wife over a matter of principal. I hope it was worth it. At least someone has sense in the family. do the world a favor and don't procreate.

ryanv1978

so far we have complete identity theft and then armed home invasion. Neither of which are based in reality.

ryanv1978

thats fine...bad shit happens everywhere, but those houses weren't broken into because they showed ID to a cashier, so i dont knwow what your point is.

I would say your gated community is a rip off as well as your private police force.

ryanv1978

Some of these merchants need a refresher course.

Dakine

Razta

unklegwar

Not 'sorta-kinda' THEY STRAIGHT UP PUT IT IN PRINT IN THE MERCHANT RULES -- CAN NOT REFUSE CARD SOLELY BECAUSE CARDHOLDER REFUSES TO PROVIDE ID.

Merchants need to take responsibility, if they can't stand the heat they need to get out of the kitchen -- meaning can't comply with visa/mc's rules because you're worried about fraud, then stop taking CC's altogether.

Lucky225

If they want people to use their cards for everything, CC companies have to take the loss 100% for fraudulent charges. Merchants don't want to eat these costs, yet they don't want to stop taking cards so... madness ensues.

orlo

Exactly, or at redbox movie rental machines, gas stations, and other self-serve locations. But suddenly when someone else is touching YOUR card you're supposed to show that person your ID?

Lucky225

What I find interesting is this ryanv1978 seems to think it's okay for these stores to 'refuse service' to you and what not, and yet made this comment in regards to Best Buy asking a customer to leave:

"It's not a matter of opinion for someone to police what you can and cannot say. That's your first amendment right. Best Buy is full of crap on this one....and all you people who are defending them for their "right" to do this are idiots."

Yet he defends a merchant's "right" to see your ID, even though you have a right not to show it.

Lucky225

Joe-Bob

"You guys are crazy, thinking that someone is going to look at your address and then send some goon over to rob you. How would the clerk know if anyone else in the house is home?

your people are way paranoid over stupid shit and in the end it just inconveniences your lives."

Really? Are you serious?

Last week, 2 houses were broken into just a few blocks from where I live, in the middle of the day, like around 1:30 in the afternoon, while the people were HOME. Beat them senseless & bloody, robbed them blind, and got away with it.

Now, you'd think that kind of craziness could only be possible in some serious hardcore ghetto. Well you'd be wrong. I live in an extremely "well-off" (for lack of a better description) gated resort community on Maui, that has it's own private police force (security patrol) in addition to the regular police.

You still think it's paranoia?

Now imagine what they could do if they KNOW you're not home.

Sorry man, but you're the one that needs to wake up. Life is not an episode of the Brady Bunch. There are real people out there that will do you REAL harm, and not give it a second thought.

No, I have no idea where my personal info was gleaned. That's what makes ID theft such a pain. You have to lock down every account and start over, because once your info has been compromised, it's ALL been compromised.

Dakine

taka2k7

so you know with 100% certainty where your ID theft originated? It was from showing your ID while making a purchase?

You guys are crazy, thinking that someone is going to look at your address and then send some goon over to rob you. How would the clerk know if anyone else in the house is home?

your people are way paranoid over stupid shit and in the end it just inconveniences your lives.

There are plenty of stores that keep yoru financial information on records for YEARS, your ID could be stolen from that info too. What are you going to do about that?

Your id was NOT stolen from showing a license at a register. No way, no how.

ryanv1978

ryanv1978

"Credit cards are not for privacy or security purposes. Anyone who things otherwise is either arrogant or ignorant. They are for convenience. You sacrifice security, and privacy for easy access to a line of credit. Stop making them into something they aren't."

You couldn't be more wrong.

Credit cards are used SOLELY for security. They prevent theft of hard cash. They prevent your info from being disclosed as with checks. They are protected/guaranteed by the issuer, so if you are mugged or otherwise compromised you can make a phone call and secure your account. And they are essentially anonymous with exception to your name.

Some idiot clerk REQUIRING your ID in direct violation of the merchant agreement destroys all of that security in one single instant. And you're not only letting them do it, you are encouraging it.

Dakine

"I show my ID whenever asked and have never had my identity stolen."

Give it time. You'll change your tune.

My identity was stolen 2 months ago. I'm still cleaning up the mess. Cancelled every single card, alerts to the bureaus, chargebacks... oh the fun.

No, I didn't leave my wallet in a parking lot. Someone gleaned my info and used it on existing cards, then started setting up entirely new accounts in my name.

Keep volunteering your info and sooner or later, someone will gladly take it from you.

Dakine

That said, it all goes back to "easier to use credit." With ease and convenience comes a cost. Rules that don't otherwise exist and the occasional occurrence of experiences like yours. It's always going to be like that until that perfect world we all dream of comes to be. If you want ease of use, you have to accept that on occasion, it's going to make things MORE difficult than if you used the standard method (in this case, cash).

FreeMarketGravy

Exactly. People assume some clerk is comparing their photo. But there's no way anyone can know if they have any interest in your photo, or if you're about to be cleaned out.

It would be great if it was still 1952 and we could all go on thinking that people are inherently good. But this is reality we live in. When I wake up in the morning, I start my day by assuming that there are a lot of unsavory people in this world who will do what they can to get ahead easily. And then I build my day from there.

It's sort of like having locks on your car doors. Locks only keep honest people honest, they don't stop crooks. And there's no way to know who is the crook anymore.

I read your entire IHOP story back when it was first posted up, and I fully agree with you. Clueless merchants (clerks) are a security threat. End of story.

Dakine

Well like I said, my biggest concern is like when I was at IHOP and had already ate the product. I usually DON'T shop at retail places that are willing to violate their merchant agreement, as that is just a completely bad business practice to begin with. I don't carry cash because it's easier to use credit, and if my card DOES get stolen, I'm not liable for the purchases made, which means I get to KEEP my cash.

Lucky225

@Lucky225: Sure and you are free to either complain to someone who has the leverage to make sure every store employee knows that, shop somewhere that already DOES make sure every employee knows that or carry cash where this becomes a non-issue.

FreeMarketGravy

The store often has their own policy outside of the Merchant Agreement. Maybe it comes into conflict with the Merchant Agreement and in that case, that's an issue between the merchant and Visa/Mastercard that leaves you free to shop somewhere that doesn't have some sort of misunderstanding with the credit industry.

Reciting the rules and regulations of credit ID confirmation to a cashier does nothing but make you look foolish.

FreeMarketGravy

The Merchant Rules forbid ID as a requirement when using a credit card, as a result I don't need it when I make purchases. End of story. I should not have to carry ID around because some clueless merchant thinks they require it when if they only read their agreement they'ed see otherwise.

Lucky225

Wormfather

Mr. Merchant made an aggreement with Visa and Mastercard and they're aquiring bank to accept they're card's based on a few conditions too.

When you use your card at a merchant you are both aggreeing to abide by your respective contracts.

I dont give my ID because I dont have to, nowhere in my contract does it say I have to and there is no personal benifit to me by giving it. If someone steals my credit card I'm going to have to report it whether or not they actually used it, which is the extent of the "undue stress" that I'm going to be caused so I dont care.

Also, it doesnt protect Mr. Merchant any either seeing as how as long as I sign my receipt they arent going to loose any money on the potential fraud.

Finally, like I said before, if you REALLY feel like this isnt my card, there is a recourse. You make a Code 10 Call to MC/Visa and that person. Then I get to play the 21 question, memory game (I love this game) where they ask fun questions like where my sister lives, where I work and what color is my favorite jello.

Wormfather

seriously, it always surprises me it's like when you're at the dmv and people have their SSN and everything just chilling on an application that they're not even trying to obscure. Showing your ID to the clerk isn't just showing it to the clerk, other people around could be looking at your information as well.

Lucky225

You're right. You are not required to carry ID. You're also not required to carry a credit card or even have one. If you CHOOSE to have a credit card and you CHOOSE to use it, it's in your best interests to do everything possible to ensure you CAN use it. If not, carry cash or find another merchant that won't ask you for ID.

FreeMarketGravy

Nearly anyone can glance at an address and have it locked in memory. So what's to stop Suzy Clerk from pulling out her celly 2 minutes later, calling up her thug boyfriend and his buddies to go rob your house clean? They already KNOW you're not home. They have your address.

Think about it people. There IS alot of harm in giving away your personal info. Stop being sheep.

Dakine

Arguing with the cashier and even the store manager is pointless. The cashier does what the manager tells them to do and the store manager does what the district manager tells them. They're not asking because it's fun or because they like to agitate people enveloped in a cloak of paranoia. They're asking because someone above them on the ladder will punish them if they don't. Leave your purchases, walk out and argue with someone who has the leverage to change things.

FreeMarketGravy

Wormfather

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

There is nothing requiring a person to have an ID on a person, therefore forcing someone to show one is a violation of that person's rights. It is a right retained by the people.

Lucky225

Lucky225

cybercjh

FreeMarketGravy

No. You have no "right" not to show your ID. That right is not afforded to you anywhere. You have a choice not to show your ID, but unless you are physically forced to show your ID after refusing, your "right" is not being violated and even in such an impossible scenario, it's not your right to not show ID because, as I said, there is no such right afforded in the first place.

And criminals? "A person guilty of a crime." Unless you are detained and/or brought before a judge, you are not being treated like a criminal. You are FEELING like you are being persecuted, which is your own problem.

FreeMarketGravy

Yea AND GUESS WHAT THOSE RULES ARE -- NO ID!!! THATS IN THE MASTERCARD RULES, CANT REQUIRE IT, THEREFORE MERCHANT MUST ACCEPT MY CARD!

Lucky225

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. You obviously have no clue about rights nor do you care about them as you give them up without question.

Lucky225

Amen, I still tipped the waitress at IHOP, cus I knew it wasn't her fault and she did give good service. She wasn't even the one taking my payment.

Lucky225

FreeMarketGravy

If anyone's that paranoid about security, use cash. Everywhere takes it and no one asks for ID on cash. If you sign up for a credit card, you've already given up a permanent record of your identity to the bank that any bank teller can look up on a whim. Did that just blow anyone's mind?

FreeMarketGravy

queenofdenial

But guess what, I tipped 20% anyway, so go away with your stereotypes.

Wormfather

"They are for convenience."

Exactly why ID shouldn't be required. I don't care about giving out my name or card number. My DL#, address, dob, etc.. that's just not necessary.

Lucky225

get a clue

ryanv1978

Seriously, if you use a credit card, don't assume or expect privacy, your name is on it, your name is on the receipt with the purchase you made, date time, and the store, cc processor and yourself will keep a copy of that transaction for the next several years.

Credit cards are not for privacy or security purposes. Anyone who things otherwise is either arrogant or ignorant. They are for convenience. You sacrifice security, and privacy for easy access to a line of credit. Stop making them into something they aren't.

I really hate seeing people fall into this trap. The only thing more pathetic are these kids who think posting embarrassing pictures on myspace is supposed to be private.

digitalgimpus

FreeMarketGravy

That's fine and all, but what about restaurants where you have already ate the product and are simply trying to pay for it. They can refuse to accept a valid form of payment, but I don't want to hear them crying when they don't get paid for the food I ate because THEY don't want to take my card.

Lucky225

FreeMarketGravy

Slytherin

@Lucky225: Good answer. *rolls eyes*

FreeMarketGravy

The kind that has all your personal information on it that you don't want other people seeing.

Lucky225

Funny, I was being detained by the manager while he called Police when I was at IHOP. That's being treated like a criminal.

Lucky225

As far as ID you don't carry with you, I don't get it either. I'm from NJ where not driving is not an option, but I can't imagine what kind of photo ID there is that you wouldn't carry with you.

FreeMarketGravy

This is the type of country we are becoming when we just bend over and show ID^

Lucky225

It's far from a foolproof system, but it's something and I'd rather be treated "like a criminal" (which, by the way, is not happening if you're not being cuffed and detained) than a criminal be treated like an innocent person.

FreeMarketGravy

Is there any proof that "A large percenatage of Identity Theft occurrs from store employees viewing IDs."?

I don't like showing my ID, and have refused all the way to the point of arguing with store managers and even walking away from an entire cart load of groceries. My reasons for not showing ID are usually attitude related. I don't like being treated like a criminal and when the employee comes off heavy-handed, I refuse ID. I'm not sure how a cursory glance at my ID, which does not show my SSN, could enable identity theft, or at least make it any easier than it already is.

Papagoose

I hear it here over and over, "what if someone uses my credit card info! credit cards are eeeevil!" SO WHAT.

The only person you are protecting by doing this is Chase, BoA and citibank. IT'S NOT YOUR LIABIlITY, PEOPLE!

Getting your credit card number used or stolen is not a big deal. Getting your DL# and SSN is.

Oh, and to the wizards who think a check is more secure.. Hello? It has your name address, *bank account number* , routing number, and signature on it. More secure? Are you on meth?

tcp100