<![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War - Consumerist Comments]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War - Consumerist Comments]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> To correct myself, confederate dollars are worth less now than they were then. I'm not into economics so I don't know the proper terminology. But as others have pointed out, the exchange rate is miserable.

Meiran

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @guspaz: "The city should pay her back, but not $23 million. IOUs don't accrue interest, normally..."

That's what I was curious about. Normally, wouldn't an interest rate like that have to be specified on the IOU and if it isn't, then I would assume they just owe her $300. Where did she pull this interest rate? Or is it inflation? And if it's inflation, then confederate dollars didn't inflate...

Meiran

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> It doesn't matter because if the city has re-incorporated, the US protects businesses from paying out debts. (The US system is very pro-business and anti-worker that way.) I know because I was screwed out of $9,000 by a company that simply re-incorporated itself to avoid paying out money owed to freelancers. If that can happen today, it certainly applies in this case: that Tampa is different incorporated entity than it was back then and therefore the woman would be trying to collect on a incorporated entity that no longer exists. In other words: there really is not defendant.

olegna

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> A few things....

the amendment RE: insurrection debt is about debt of the United States, not any state or any political subdivision of a state. Federalism!

Exchange rate: Varied greatly during the war as the confederacy overprinted currency and drove inflation through the roof.

Sounds like a municipal bond issue -- interest is applicable.

SoL: Would be based on the past 1860 statute unless current statute explicitly notes all PAST debts as being held to a new limit.

dsolimini

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Crazytree: cigars, tons and tons of cigars

Lo-Pan

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Candyman: The U.S. Constitution doesn't acknowledge cities as something distinct from a state, so that amendment should apply to Tampa. (If the definition of "state" didn't include cities, the Bill of Rights would be in serious trouble.)

Michael Bauser

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Of course, if you use Saturnian years, a bit less interest is owned.

kbarrett

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip: Less than 5 Saturnian years have passed since 1861.

kbarrett

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> The city should pay her back, but not $23 million. IOUs don't accrue interest, normally...

Figure out the exchange rate at the time of the loan, convert that into US dollars. Then account for inflation.

I have no idea what the exchange rate was back then, but for the sake of producing something, let's say it was 1.0. $300 would then be worth $10,762.02 today. This would not be an unreasonably large amount to pay out.

guspaz

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip:
The law was passed after the debt was incurred though. A lawyer (which I'm not) may have a better call on if that means the debt is still valid because it existed before the law or if they had the listed time frame from the date the law was enacted to collect.

00exmachina

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Hello, statute of limitations?

vladthepaler

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @banmojo: I have to think that is the real reason she's doing this as opposed to actually believing they'll pay her anything.

The government made a bunch of promises it didn't keep back then. She has no reason to expect there'll be an exception made for her.

Rectilinear Propagation

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Crazytree:

If the debt is time-barred, the accrual of interest is irrelevant, I'd think.

If the SOL bell has tolled, you can charge whatever interest you want for eternity, but you can't get a judgment and you can't attach the debtor's assets, wages or accounts.

Charge a zillion percent if you like; it won't make any difference.

BigElectricCat

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> I heard the NPR story. Apart from the 'loan in Confederate dollars' argument, they had two other pretty good reasons to invalidate the debt:
1. The US Constitution protects against having to pay debt incurred for insurrection against the United States
2. The city of Tampa that incurred the debt is not the same entity as modern Tampa; that city went bankrupt and was dissolved, not to be reincorporated for another 15 years



choinski

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Unlike the Dollars ( Federal Reserve Notes ) that we have in our pockets, If the Confederate Dollar was, at that time, backed in silver and/or gold, then a Confederate Dollar isn't "worth zero" ; it's directly equivilent and convertable to silver/and/oor gold e.g. each Confederate Dollar could be exchanged on demand for 1 ounce of silver. Just look at the U.S. Mint's current Silve Eagle 1 Dollar coin, which is an ounce of silver - it's worth about 18 paper FRN Dollars. If anything, Tampa owes 300 ounces of silver, plus interest if applicable.

BrianU

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @tomok97:

its actually different : Siam does still exist in the form of Thailand. It never stopped to exist, just changed its name after the aboloshment of the absoute monarchy (thai means free)

A better example would be the Estonia in 1941, which was conquered by the Soviet Union and then incorporated into the SU.

Redwraithvienna

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @edosan: I just witnessed the Wisdom of Solomon. Here on Consumerist!

Trai_Dep

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @tk427: 23 mil of them? Heck, doesn't sound too bad a trade-off to me. But I do doubt whether there are enough of them still in existance.

Candyman

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @CumaeanSibyl:

I don't think Tampa is a State. The City is the plaintiff, not the state.

Candyman

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip:

I've always been amused that the acronym SOL works both for Statutes of limitations and S#!+ Out of Luck.

Candyman

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @ClayS:
Ooooo.... good thinking.


Candyman

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @tomok97: Worse; Siam still exists. They changed the name to Thailand, but there was no political change. It's still the same country.

Candyman

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @MickeyMoo: I had the exact same thought when reading this.

jjason82

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Confederate

tk427

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> They should pay her off with Convederate $50 dollar bills which are going for $36.07 on ebay.

tk427

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @DeltaPurser: She's 77. She has plenty of time.

Victo

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Well, if nothing else, she just increased the sales price of a 150 year old IOU by about 100%.

RandomHookup

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> What a DOUCHE! They should let her run up a bill with some ambulance chaser before denying her claim.

I swear... some people have waaaaay too much time on their hands!

DeltaPurser

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @ceejeemcbeegee: You'd better get ready to run though... they'll run your arse out of town if you don't "loan" them the money.

azntg

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @CumaeanSibyl: And the moral of the story is: never loan money to the g'vt during a war.

Oops!

ceejeemcbeegee

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> If I were the city, I'd pay her a reasonable fee (a couple thousand bucks?) for the IOU, generate some goodwill and get an artifact for some museum somewhere.

iMike

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip: You're probab;y right. I was just thinking out loud.

nequam

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Crazytree:
Hey, if Fry's bank account didn't stop accruing interest in 1,000 years, I think grandma here is fine. ;)


WraithSama

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> the reason this will never happen is that if it does, there's going to be a lot of money to be made by professional counterfeiters who specialize in old paper.

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @CumaeanSibyl: was the debt incurred in furtherance of the "insurrection" or was it just borrowed by Tampa to run its civil affairs? for some reason I don't think of Tampa being a huge supplier of war materiel to the Confederate war machine.

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @nequam: I wondered about that, but I figured IOU was more like a bank loan and not like a publicly issued/auctioned bond.

spinachdip

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> also the statute of limitations on debt collecting would have be retroactive. this debt may be grandfathered in.

katylostherart

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> if it's in confederate dollars they should pay her with confederate dollars in good condition and then it's up to her to sell those for current value which is about $25 a bill depending on condition.

katylostherart

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @CumaeanSibyl: *golf clap*

legotech

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @nequam: EDIT!! "assumes" and "to run the"

nequam

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip: Applying the statute of limitations assume that we know the due date of the IOU. If the IOU does not say something like "to be paid no later than 18XX," then there is no date from which to run to limitations period.

On the surface, at least, this IOU appears to be similar to a bond. A municipal bond is essentially a loan to a city/town. Bonds typically provide for a certain payment at maturity, but continue to earn interest thereafter. They do not become stale (or uncollectible) over time.

That said, the Confederacy-thing may be the real issue.

nequam

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @CumaeanSibyl: well done.

xtc46

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @spinachdip: The debt's from 1860; you probably have to use whatever the time limit was in 1860. Anybody got a copy of Florida's 1860 statutes?

It was a probably a common law thing back then, so I'm going to guess "seven years."

Michael Bauser

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Section 4 of the 14th Amendment runs as follows:

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

CumaeanSibyl

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> [www.fair-debt-collection.com]

Florida Statutes of Limitation

Contract or written instrument and for mortgage foreclosure: 5 years. F.S. 95.11.

Libel, slander, or unpaid wages: 2 years.

Judgments: 20 years total and to be a lien on any real property, it has to be re-recorded for a second time at 10 years.

The limitations period begins from the date the last element of the cause of action occurred, (95.051). NOTE: The limitation period is tolled (stopped) for any period during which the debtor is absent from the state and each time a voluntary payment is made on a debt arising from a written instrument.

Almost all other actions fall under the 4-year catch-all limitations period, (F.S. 95.11(3)(p)).


It seems City of Tampa is in the clear if the 5-year SOL has passed. So the big question is, have 5 years passed since 1871?

spinachdip

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @edosan: That would probably cost a lot more than just paying it off :D

@Buran: As a northerner who recently moved to the South, let me assure you, not everybody down here thinks so...

erica.blog

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> in other news, tampa's fitch rating reduced from a- to d after knowledge of their inability to pay obligations emerged in the media.

mac-phisto

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @edosan: The war ended a loooooooooooooooong time ago.

Buran

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> confederate money wasn't issued until April 1861 so there's a good chance that this is in US dollars.

also the issue of being "time barred" raises some issues. at what point does an outstanding debt stop accruing interest? with most companies its when it's "charged off" and sent to a third party collection agency. perhaps when the promisee dies? I don't know.

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> BigElectricCat: Indeed, time barred debt for quite a while now, not to mention the devaluing of the currency. $23,000,000 in confederate dollars at an exchange rate of what?

Mr. Gunn

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> I wonder if anyone has ever tried to collect on a Monopoly debt... You know how it is, I loan you (Monopoly) money to avoid losing the game, and 10 years later I sue you for outstanding debt.

I wonder what the interest rate at Parker Brothers is...

Doctor_Flarb

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> This was out weeks ago.
The 'best' reason is that the city was not the same city then. The old city unincorporated and the current city is a new corporation.

/former Tampa resident

MikeSims

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> The press this'll generate may find her some rich antique collectors who dig this kind of rarity. And it's a great story too.

banmojo

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @tomok97: "It's Istanbul, not Constantinople!"

Buran

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Epic fail (but a nice try.)

ivanthemute

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @catskyfire: Right, but it was made in confederate dollars, and the technical exchange rate for those is $0:$1, so the city is right, they don't owe her squat.

m4ximusprim3

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> On a technical level, the loan was to the City, not the confederacy.

catskyfire

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> We already covered this EXACT situation in an old episode of "The Andy Griffith Show". Jeeze ,doesn't anybody pay attention ?

Snarkysnake

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> That's actually a good idea to take it on Antiques Roadshow. That would be interesting to see.

rmz

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> This is right out of The Andy Griffith Show almost line for line.

Season 2, Episode 4: Mayberry Goes Bankrupt
Original Air Date: 23 October 1961
Frank Myers is a kindly old man who lives in a rundown house which the town council feels is an eyesore. He is also delinquent on back taxes and they decide to evict him. Andy is opposed but is forced to serve papers. The Taylors decide to take him in until he can find a permanent place to live. While looking through his valuables Andy finds a 100 year old bond which is redeemable for the face value plus 8 1/2% interest compounded annually. The council panics when they find out the town of Mayberry owes Frank Myers over $349,000 dollars.

sixninezero

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Nice of you all to run my picture in the headline... though I was on the other side of the war.

timmus

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Wouldn't collection of the debt be time-barred?

BigElectricCat

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> LoL people obviously don't attempt to redeem things like this earlier because the longer they wait, the more they can take!

jmschn

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> 1) Pay her in Confederate money. Problem solved.

2) The U.S. can imprison her for aiding and abetting an enemy in time of war. Second problem solved.

edosan

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Pylon83: depends on what the definition of "third-party debt collector" is.

if it means a licensed debt collection agency, then it may not apply. otherwise she is a third party (her great-grandfather was the lending party) and she is now attempting to collect the debt.

unless there is an exception for debt passed down through blood kin, she is BY DEFINITION, a third-party debt collector.

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @radleyas: the story says the debt was incurred in 1871 which is a typo.

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Crazytree:
She's not a third party debt collector, so the FDCPA doesn't apply.

She's lose, probably on laches.

Pylon83

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> the city should sue her for FDCPA and FCRA violations!

Crazytree

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Milstar:

The civil war 1860-65

The loan 1860 ...

I don't see the problem.

radleyas

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @Milstar: I think its a math error. The 147 years is right (for 1861), but yeah, the civil war was long over in 1871

Steve Trachsel, Ace

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @APFPilot:

Surely you mean Tony Danza ...

Don't get you Danza's and Danson's confused!!

radleyas

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> um wasn't the Civil War & such confederate dollars over many yrs prior to that loan? Something isn't making sense.

Milstar

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> @MickeyMoo: I'd rather have Ted Danza's skeleton

APFPilot

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> DOH! Anchovies...

MickeyMoo

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> She should claim it on her income tax return as a bad debt.

ClayS

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> maybe if she has herself frozen for 1000 years - it will accrue enough interest to buy the last can of sardines on earth...

MickeyMoo

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> Her grandfather loaned money to a "country" that no longer exists. It would be like trying to collect money from Siam.

tomok97

]]> <![CDATA[Tampa Woman Tries To Collect Loan Made By Her Great-Grandfather During Civil War]]> My oh my how the times have changed!

bdsakx

]]>