toiletduck

keenconsumerist

So at low levels I guess this theory holds some truth. My electrician measured 13 amps being drawn by my Krell amp at high volume. If you honestly think that coat hanger will do the signal justice at that level you are sadly mistaken. I am sure on an Oscilloscope at 1 volt output and 100mA the coat hanger did just fine.

Then again why would they use Monster Cable against the coat hanger like the Monster was "reference" caliber wire? If you are going to try and disprove the effect of high end speaker wire at least use a high end speaker wire in your comparison. Does Monster even make that?

brian99

I don't think anyone's really suggesting for a moment that you use coat hangers as audio interconnects, but what this does prove is that ANY metal, if it's thick enough, will transmit audio flawlessly.

The "quality" of a cable is utterly irrelevant, what matters is resistance. With any reasonably conductive metal and a thick enough gauge, resistance over a short (under 100M) distance is rendered negligible.

I use household electrical cable for my speaker connects, it's thick, cheap and easy to work with.

Anyone spending real money on speaker cable is truly wasting their time, you could only hope to perceive a distance with an oscilliscope.

Ten98

Where is the demonstration that skin effect translates to distortion? Laserjobs and Phanatic are right, in practice, to say that skin effect is not existent at less than 20 kilohertz.

There are no problems due to the increased resistance that the skin effect produces that the simple use of larger calibers of cable will not fix.

Remember, the whole design of a speaker system depends on the cables having much less resistance than the speaker's coils.

Exactly how much cable do you have to place between your amplifier and your speaker to have an audible difference of 3db between low and high tones? If you are worried about these distortions you should take a very long look into your speakers, walls, drapes, furniture, speaker placement, windows, books, and just a passing glance at your speaker cables.

avillarrealpouw

No, your friends never liked YOU in the first plast. Dude.

emjsea

Oh so thats why Mac satisfaction ratings are always so high.

DoctorMD

cunnij98

If you had invited some of the reviewers who have praised various cables, and ran the test, it would have been more meaningful.

Vinyl records have always sounded better to me than CDs. I've talked to professional recording engineers, and they agree. CDs are too narrow bandwidth. Sure, CDs don't have the pops and scratches, but I've yet to hear a piano recording that sounds anywhere near as accurate as a vinyl record.

I'm no golden ear, but I listen to a lot of music, and often live in small venues. I know how music sounds. The brain adapts. If you listen to CDs long enough and often enough, that sound becomes what you think is correct, even though it doesn't reflect the original performance. It sounds like your other CDs, so it must be right.

chartguy

but frankly, i don't care that much. i understand mp3s are compressed, and i'm really listening for the music, not the defects. it IS the music -- one of the coolest recordings i have is rachmaninoff playing the rach 2 and 3. it was recorded in the 30's, and the CD version is basically just taken off a 78. the strings have that dull 30's sound to them, and the whole thing's had some noise reduction applied to it, but that performance! you hear it, and it's all that matters. i've heard other performances of the same concertos, and they're just not as good, even if the recording is far better.

arachnophilia

tkluck

Personally I can hear a difference between a 192k mp3 and cd quality, but I've never heard a difference with a monster cable product. And no I am not a spokesman for the hanger association.

Red_Eye

Best comment. What a bunch of tools. My wife gets to buy $175 shoes, I get $125 cables. You guys hook up your stuff with coat hangers and put bras on your heads and wait for Kelly Brock to come out of your shower.

Yankee01

"Hey guys! Quit ganging up on me! You all grossly missed my point in my previous replys in this thread.

First of all, I'm a new (61 year old) kid on this block who has been involved in hi-fi for over 45 years."

No wonder he couldn't hear any difference...

crazyemu

From the article...

"We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies."

"Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them)."

"Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies..."

Five buddies, plus him. Then only five blindfolded people, presumably the buddies (5) and him? Then 12 buddies??!

Is it just me or is this either (1) sloppy? or (2) fishy?

Sheesh.

Dave!

The Great Aussie Evil

I'm pretty sure that you didn't actually do a double blind test: i.e. the pepsi challeng was single blind, not double blind.

[en.wikipedia.org]

You'll note that in the single blind section, they speak of how single blind tests are: "especially risky in psychology and social science research". Take note that audio perception most definitely falls into the "psychology" category, and that the ability to differentiate audio at a very subtle level is pretty clearly a "social science" issue (i.e. the listener is attempting to be "correct" in order to fit in with the audiophiles...)

So yeah, while I don't think you're a blood sucker as a salesman, I do think that it's possible that you are heavily biased when it comes to audio performance :)

consumeristlegs

If you can hear a difference there between cheap stuff and high-end on a short speaker cable, a little deoxit on the connectors ought clear things right on up (or, maybe you really do have an awe/pity-inspiring system! :)).

P.S. Google "Patrick82" for some quality audio tweaks :P :P :P

cerbie

@ekdikeo: Ahh, you've fallen for the "pure copper" marketing hype too. At short distances, wire is wire. As long as it isn't naturally a poor conductor or is excessively corroded, I'd challenge anyone to notice the difference between different styles of speaker wire. I've used lamp cord on numerous occasions and I can't tell a bit of difference compared to the same gauge and length of more expensive "speaker" cable.

As far as interference is concerned, insulated, unshielded speaker wire will conduct just as much RF as a bare coat hanger. The only difference is you have to be careful that the two lengths of coat hanger don't short out each other.

barty

Brian165

what, may i ask, is "crap equipment?" if i have to have the ultimate top of the line best sound equipment in the world, hearing like a dog, i can't listen to rock or rap, and we have to be using a test-disc... well. let me tell you how this applies to real life.

it doesn't. it's about the music, not the equipment. and if it takes superhuman abilities and precisely the right alignment between mars and venus to hear the difference, well. let me tell you, i'll go right out and buy $7000 cables in that case. or not, because the radioshack ones sound exactly the same once you disengage the "costs more = better" congnitive dissonance, and blind tests constantly prove this to be the case. copper wire = copper wire. at best you will get slightt variations in oxygen content and conductivity, but not enough to really matter a whole hell of a lot.

the old joke is that an audiophile is someone who listens to the equipment, not the music. i'd rather listen to music i love through equipment that is frankly good enough, than listen to test discs all day through top notch hi-fi gear. call me crazy, but my budget is limitted, and i'd rather buy music.

arachnophilia

ekdikeo

nobody

And EM noise? We're talking about *high-level signal* here. These are currents that are driving your speakers. Would you want to use unshielded wire for interconnects? No, you wouldn't. But for a 2-meter length of *speaker wire*, what sort of interference do you think you're going to see that would cause an audible difference at the speaker driver? A friggin' nuclear bomb going off in the next county, yeah, that could do it. Cellphones and microwaves in the same house? Not a chance.

Phanatic

However, the kicker is, unless you have incredibly discriminating ears (maybe you're a career concert pianist or professional musician), you're not going to be able to hear the difference.

So yes, technically, Monster cables could sound better, or they could in fact, sound worse...but 99% of people would never notice. Because audio quality is often subjective, it's easy for snake oil salesmen to convince people that their cable would be "more sonically pure" then the competition.

Apparently then, I'm the audio equivalent to a caveman, because lamp cord sounds perfectly fine to me. If spending $100 on speaker cables convinces you that your stereo sounds waaaaaay better than anyone else's, by all means..spend the money. I won't.

Grrrrrrrrr

Ben, you kill me!

JT

Fun test though and yes some wires are very overpriced, and yes you can make some pretty good wires on your own, but true high end wires can transform the music from your system to a new level or closer to real sounding then before. Bad wires can transform it to nasty, flat, etching noise.

Just the facts as I know them to be.

tc4all

Lamp cord works just as well. Wire is wire.

WV.Hillbilly

Coat-hanger cables would look like something you'd see on Max Headroom. Nothing has ever been cooler than Max Headroom.

TechnoDestructo

dh86sj

Televiper

Orv

Televiper

rolla

Orv

Not those cheap foreign jobs - these babies are made in the USA.

guruscotty

m4ximusprim3

seth1066

Making a speaker cable out of coat hangers does not make you MacGyver. Do not attempt to:

-Fix you car's alternator
-disarm bombs
-make a snake trap
-make a ladder
-weld a leak on a propane tank
-make a temporary fuse for your blown fusebox
-make a gas mask
-make a hang glider to escape from persuing terrorists
-override a broken airplane autopilot that's programmed to crash into the bermuda triangle
-make your own condom
-trap a carrier pigeon so you can send a note explaining your capture
-go fishing for sharks
-lift the keys off a key chain on a armed guard
-short circuit a retina scanner to gain entry into a military base
-stop a nuclear reactor from overloading
-making home made thermite to escape from being locked in a bank vault.

Other than that.. do what you will with your coat hangers.

with your wire hangers.

urban_ninjya

guspaz

Also, sadly, they're far too expensive for MY kids to do a science fair project about the issue :)

pfeng

I'd love to see them up against a coat hanger. Unfortunately they consistently out of scientific testing!

pfeng

mitchel_stevens

@AD8BC: Stranded wire in itself doesn't avoid the skin effect unless the strands are individually insulated. This isn't usually true of speaker wire. "Litz" wire has individually insulated strands, but it's problematic for use as speaker wire because its high capacitance per foot can make some amps oscillate.

Orv

cde

cde

I've been a hobbyist and salesman for stereo equipment before. YOU might like to believe that salesmen are evil and dangerous. that they are your enemy. truly, they are regular guys like you. the ONLY customer that will buy some outrageously priced gear and NOT test it to make sure it's worth it, is the rare guy that's too rich and too busy to care. everyone else will go home to listen with their buddies and IMMEDIATELY RETURN it if it doesn't make an improvement.

I have scores of customers to whom I gave the double - blind pepsi challenge. every time they could hear differences in different equipment.

there are certain things that can hinder the improvement of a system. there are certain brands that aren't worth the copper from which they're made. also, there are smart respectable people in this hobby that I even look up to, that I find doing or saying the dumbest things. so make sure you ALWAYS try things for yourself. make sure you always consult as many sources as possible. make sure you never treat your opinion as the final word no matter how much you think you've cemented it in truth. reason: there are so many variables in the equation / so many links in the chain of any stereo system that it's very difficult to pinpoint any one thing down to test it. that's why many engineers in many industries are paid lots of money to create better audio equipment for various applications.

1. a system is a chain who's weakest link can bring down everything else .

2. certain brands and certain items from certain brands are mostly worthless. monster is a great example for cable. their surge protectors are a good value though, and their warranty is NOT BS. audioquest has some cables that are way out in left field, and they usually sound like crap. but their simple cables with multiple individually insulated conductors are worthwhile. ( 'multiple individually insulated conductors' is a trend in many brands that sound good, yet CAT-5 cable WILL sound like crap. it's engineered for a different purpose.)

3. if a good system isn't set up properly then you're sabotaging your own sound / your own experiment. e.g. A/B switchers MAY NOT be used in an experiment!

4. it does not take a lot of money to make a worthwhile system. but "a lot" is ambiguous. currently a fun stereo would start at about US$2000, and can be built in pieces over time.

5. different people have different preferences. any stereo has trade-offs. different people will choose different trade-offs. to eliminate more trade-offs, more money must be spent!

galtthedestroyer

ClankBoomSteam

aeproberts

If it was a study about differences in eggs matter because it was done in 1984? Montser cable is still the same as are hangers.

walterny

Yea, it does doesn't it. Even explains how they voted in the first place.

walterny

Intersection

These days wire hangers just do not have the same electrical resistance and will melt under high load whereas Monster cables will still melt your credit card.

But really... 2004!!!!!!

LTS!

Trai_Dep

Amplifier <1% distortion
Speaker Cables <1% distortion
Speakers >1% distortion

The speakers will always be the where any difference is heard because they create much more distortion than any other component involved in the system. Think about it, the signal losses created in the mechanical system are going to be much greater than any of the electrical system. Maybe Monster can start selling uniform air in a can to fill your room for more accurate sound.

laserjobs

mindslight

SinA

Not for nothing, I think I'll stick with monoprice. No Monster, but monoprice isn't expensive and fits the actual jacks very nicely.

PS- the wire hangers in Mommy Dearest were a lot heavier gauge than the ones you get from the dry cleaner. Hard to find good wire hangers for beating your children anymore. Progress... BAH!

PotKettleBlack

When it comes to shopping, researchers at the University of Iowa have found that sometimes ignorance really is bliss. In what they term the Blissful Ignorance Effect, researchers at the university's Tippie College of Business found that people who have only a little information about a product are happier with that product than people who have more information.

"We found that once people commit to buying or consuming something, there's a kind of wishful thinking that happens and they want to like what they've bought," said assistant professor of marketing Dhananjay Nayakankuppam. "The less you know about a product, the easier it is to engage in wishful thinking. But the more information you have, the harder it is to kid yourself. This can be contrasted with what happens before taking any action when people are trying to be accurate and would prefer getting more information to less."

Nayakankuppam conducted the research with Himansha Mishra, a former UI graduate student now teaching at the University of Utah, and Baba Shiv of Stanford University. Their paper, "The Blissful Ignorance Effect," will be published in a forthcoming issue of the Journal of Consumer Research.

The researchers used three experiments to arrive at their conclusion. Two of them were consumer test-style experiments in which subjects were asked for their opinion of chocolate in one and hand lotion in the other. In each experiment, one group of subjects was given lots of information about the product, the other group much less. In each instance, the subjects who had little information were more optimistic about the chocolate or hand lotion than those who had more information.

In the third experiment, subjects were given the opportunity to pick a video to watch. They were told one of the movies had received uniformly good reviews from critics, while the other received mixed reviews. Although more of the subjects selected the movie they were told had received uniformly good reviews, those who selected the movie believing it had mixed reviews were more optimistic about their choice.

Nayakankuppam said that the Blissful Ignorance Effect demonstrates that people have a need to be happy with their choice, and will often engage in whatever distortion is needed to justify the purchase. That means playing up the positive aspects while downplaying the negatives.

Nayakankuppam said prior research has shown that before people make a buying decision, they generally like to take an objective, clear-headed view of the products they're considering. During this phase, so-called accuracy goals play a larger part of a person's thinking because they want to buy the product that best meets their needs at a reasonable cost. His research, however, shows that once a decision has been made, the Blissful Ignorance Effect takes hold and the buyer makes that emotional commitment to a decision.

He said the data suggests a shift in peoples' motivations. While they have a need to be accurate before taking some action, post-action it is the directional need to justify a conclusion that is more important, he said.

"Once we've committed to something, we want to be happy about the decision and that drives our perceptions about it," said Nayakankuppam. "It's your decision, it's a part of you, and that creates an emotional attachment. It's sort of like your kid and you want to like it no matter what."

In that way, he said the less we know about something, the easier it is to create our own conceptions about it. For instance, he said that if we don't know the chocolate we're eating has hundreds of calories, we can convince ourselves that it isn't expanding our waistline.

Although the research used inexpensive items like chocolate and hand lotion in its experiments, Nayakankuppam said the Blissful Ignorance Effect could apply to bigger ticket items, too, such as cars or houses. However, since people tend to do more research before buying expensive items and thus would have more information, the effect would be more limited.

STORY SOURCE: University of Iowa News Service, 300 Plaza Centre One, Iowa City, Iowa 52242-2500.

walterny

shadow735

orielbean

JeffWagg

Nighthawke

Sounds like a pretty cool experiment though.

MYarms

Primate

nytmare

although I could swear that there was an effect at 60 Hz...

AD8BC

A good set of non-brand audio cables is about 5 dollars.

Hawk07

Really?

I mean what is the outcome? You've got your 4 friends there, they can't tell the difference. So you make them look like idiots, they think you're a jerk. And maybe, just maybe, 1 of those 4 friends will wise up. The other 3 will get defensive and like you a little less.

radio1

See the above referenced wikipedia article. Toward the end it discusses Litz wire. With that, some small difference might be detected with sensitive instruments (or freakish ears).

jarchie219

Why pay for expensive copper when you can use potmetal?

Techguy1138

cmdr.sass

    Having said that, I have a 20 year old, cheap (Peavy) 25-foot main guitar cable that STILL has no shorts in it. If I were to play gigs these days, though, I'd definitely go wireless on my axe.

AcidReign

vastrightwing

Bad comparison.

Techguy1138

soulman901

stevegoz

Dry cleaning isn't free you know!!!

sir_eccles

Wormfather

StevieD

Trai_Dep

Work out the skin effect at 20khz LOL!!!!
[en.wikipedia.org]

laserjobs

DeeJayQueue

swimman1

SuburbanSocialite

Bravo. We're still laughing.

speedwell

jeffjohnvol

MBPharmD

Since standard speaker cable (including Monster, and cheap Shadio Rack cable) are stranded, there are many conductors, each with their own skin effect. So, in effect, stranded cables are more efficient... but again, this is only apparant in longer runs.

This was a neat experiment though!

AD8BC

jeffjohnvol

timsgm1418

One upshot to making your own is you can manage your clutter by cutting to length what you need.

Nighthawke

itsallme

fostina1