<![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag - Consumerist Comments]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag - Consumerist Comments]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I'd say you qualify for "minimal amount of knowledge." Rectilinear as always you got it right friend.

Pirate With Parrot

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @xtc46: how is it backwards to think "if you are making money you get less welfare" seems spot on to me. If you are making money, you assitance.

The thoroughness of your written language is reflective of the thoroughness in your thought and experience. You either misinterpreted what I said or misconstrued it to say something I didn't.

I said people who get welfare and work are worse off than by not working.

Hypothetical: A person is on welfare at $1000/month. They get a part time job for $400/month, and the government deducts $400 from the welfare cheque. Does that mean the welfare recipient is getting $1000?

No. The person pays taxes on the $400, as well as paying the cost of work clothing, transportation, lunches, and other incidental costs of having a job. After all such costs and deductions, the recipient is getting less than $1000, and is financially worse off by working than by not working.

Unless a welfare recipient is lucky to land a job that pays more per month in wages than the welfare benefits, then there is no incentive to start working. This is one of the principal reasons able bodied people don't take just any job; they're not lazy, they're being realistic about money. And the situation is even worse for those with additional problems like dependents, disabilities and such.

But, of course, those who have no experience being on social assistance arrogantly think they know the reasons people stay on welfare and then speak without knowledge.

KJones

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @banmojo: "what about chicks with quadriplegia who paint with their mouths and can pay their rent bill each month?"

What about those who can't? What about the children of those who can't?

"liberal d-bags would have us giving all our hard earned money away to take care of poor d-bags - oh, wait a sec, that's what we ALrEADY have to do!"

Did you read the article at all? He started off by living in shelters and taking handouts. Even he wouldn't have been able to achieve what he did if it hadn't been for the support of those first couple of months.

"Kudos and hats off to this genius college kid who has shown us once again that the American dream is alive and kicking - all it takes is initiative and drive."

You really think that living in a rathole apartment with an old pickup truck and a few bucks in savings is "the American dream"? Really? If he'd dragged himself from poverty to riches I'd agree, but from the streets into poverty? Not so much.

aphexbr

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @melanie.dawn: I'm sorry to hear that but I hope that you feel some sympathy for the next genuinely homeless person you meet who really needs your help. I don't think that what you're describing there is a "homeless" person but an addict. There's a difference though one can lead to another.

aphexbr

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @harumph: So don't live in New York. Why should we feel sorry for people who try but fail to live in a location that is beyond their means?

Pender

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> How does this kid think people end up homeless in the first place? Does he think every homeless person started out by saying "See that homeless junkie going through opiate withdrawal? That looks like a LOT of fun!"

Wow, so a white, fit, healthy, kid with no mental disabilities, physical disabilities, or criminal record, was able to support himself? Alert the media!

This "experiment" proves nothing, except that this kid, like most children of privilege, have literally no idea how privileged they are.

PaulS

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> what a lot of liberal bs I'm reading here today! he did this because he's 'male' and 'healthy'?? what about chicks with quadriplegia who paint with their mouths and can pay their rent bill each month?

this guy DID do something amazing, and he has shown us that MOST homeless and poor people are in their circumstances due to THEIR CHOICES, nothing more, nothing less.

liberal d-bags would have us giving all our hard earned money away to take care of poor d-bags - oh, wait a sec, that's what we ALrEADY have to do! What a crock of shit.

Kudos and hats off to this genius college kid who has shown us once again that the American dream is alive and kicking - all it takes is initiative and drive.

banmojo

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Some random thoughts, many that have been posted here. I have over a decade of experience working with the needy, homeless and mentally ill. I may get some of the details of the "college grad's" (CG) story wrong.

For you worried about your taxes, please consider the pittance that is spent on welfare services vs what is spent on the military and payouts to businesses in this country. Find the numbers yourself. It is silly for you to argue points you have no facts for. Our medical services cost much more than those of other nations, and cause US businesses to be less competitive. And the messed-up system leads to a large % of people having no access to medical care, and bankrupts many.

Most of the clients I worked with who were chronically poor had multiple disadvantages including physical and mental illness, crazy interpersonal/family situations they could not easily escape from, and the garden-variety problems of having no skills, being unattractive, or having demerits in one's past. There is large social currency in being young, white, male, reasonably attractive, and having a sports background. It's obscene and odd, but being a jock or ex-jock opens a lot of doors. Social scientists have studied this vanity and found that athletes get more career money and have better prospects than those who have no such background. And BTW, having the time and $$ for sports avocations is a definite sign of a middle-class or better background. It translates into instant privilege.

There is the huge issue of availability and access to supportive services. In Wherever, NC, where CG lived, apparently there were things like food stamps and shelters available to him. Many US cities have no available shelter beds, and he would have found himself on the street many nights. And in many states, being an able-bodied single male means you will never qualify for a dime of welfare, either food stamps or especially cash. Finding and keeping a job will be much harder if you and your clothes are filthy and you have nowhere safe to collect your thoughts. It is important to not make assumptions about the availability of supportive services, which vary a lot from place to place, but across the US, remain stingy and low quality overall.

One of the important details about Ehrenreich's experiment is that she lived in Maine, which, due to onerous planning and zoning requirements, has a shortage of housing, and very high housing costs. It is generally easy to find work there, but most of your paycheck will go to pay the rent. I'm glad CG had access to a shelter and food stamps, so he didn't have to sleep in parks and eat whatever he could forage from dumpsters and the occasional church mission, but many don't have such luxuries.

It's far more common for workers like myself to see the most abject need (say, a mentally retarded 35 year old woman, covered with bruises and spider bites, who is being abused by her parents), and discover, after weeks of intense searching, that there is nothing available to her--no income support, no housing, no medical care.

And doesn't anybody find it as offensive as I that CG gained people's sympathy by badmouthing his parents? How would his prospects have been different had CG said the problems with drugs and alcohol had been his own--a far more realistic scenario?

It is clear that the lesson he claims to have learned is bootstraps, gaining him full entree into the world of upper-class trustafarians who nevertheless claim they did it all on their own. No doubt Glenn Beck has some sloppy kisses waiting for him, but CG's experimental design was fantasy. Betcha he carried a copy of "Atlas Shrugged" in his backpack to inspire him.

ChuckECheese

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> ps. Why does everyone keep saying he has such an advantage because he's male? has no one noticed that 90% of people you see on the street are male? I think women just think differently and possibly try harder. For ever 20 guys asking for my change, maybe one time there will be a woman.

melanie.dawn

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> People defending the homeless obviosuly have never know anyone who was homeless. Well guess what. My dad became an alcoholic and eventualy wound up on the street. He did it to himself. Everyone tried to help him... but you can only do so much for someone. He wasted his money, he stole other peoples money. He abused peoples trust and took advantage of anyone who tried to help him. When he ended up homeless he blamed everyone but himself. I too, used to feel sympathy for the homeless, and while I'm sure every situation is different, I no longer feel anything for them. They might as well just die.

melanie.dawn

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @UpsetPanda: But they do teach you how to find a job which gives you skills to succeed at it no matter what job it is you're trying to get.

Rectilinear Propagation

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Maybe he would be interested in another experiment where he works for a middle class family for next to nothing doing things like cutting the grass, raking leaves, doing odd jobs around the house...

cunnij98

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> he's just like Jewel!

mammalpants

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I've weighed in on this elsewhere and I'm probably going to be repeating a lot of what's been said here (sorry, gave up reading after 100 comments...), but here's the way I see it. The "experiment" was flawed and proves nothing, but it can give a few good points.

Good points: it's been showed here that simply being "poor" is not necessarily a disadvantage in itself. It is possible in the US to get something from nothing with a bit of hard work and diligent use of resources.

Bad points: unfortunately, this is a much bigger list. The obvious one is education. This guy has had the advantage of a stable, happy upbringing among people who are good with money - you can't buy this kind of education, even discounting the degrees. He claims that he didn't "use" his college education but that's only true in that he didn't use his degrees as collateral to get a white-collar job.

He definitely used his college education - from maths skills to balance his accounts to networking, interviewing and spoken English skills. Most poor people simply don't have these - being brought up in a violent, poor neighbourhood by a single parent and never making it through high school will not give you these skills, hence the poverty cycle. Good credit will also have helped - many landlords won't rent to someone with a poor credit or criminal history, much more likely among the poor.

Then, there's the other benefits he had. He's young, strong, healthy, single, childless, male and white. An overweight black single mother in her 40s might end up in the same situation, but wouldn't have a hope of repeating his "success". Many people on the streets are there *because* of drug or alcohol addiction, or mental health problems. It's harder to drag yourself up from that abyss too. Not impossible, but many times harder than this case. He also had the knowledge of safety, knowing he could go home any time. He never hit rock bottom, never had to face the psychological barriers that hit anyone who is in that situation for real.

Then, there's the nature of the "experiment" itself. He didn't drag himself out of poverty at all. He simply proved that it's possible in 10 months to come off the streets and have some meagre savings. He was still one work-related accident, one auto wreck, one criminal attack, one family disaster away from being back on the street. As soon as disaster did hit, he simply folded up and went home. I'm not suggesting he should have ignored his family for the sake of this experiment, but had he actually been poor with a poor family, all his savings would have evaporated in an instant.

It's a shame that people are tending to miss the flaws in this experiment if it helps people confirm their own prejudices. The fact is that this guy took benefits, jobs and cheap housing that others may have missed out on and proved little other than the fact that an educated young man with no major personal problems can live a basic existence with some hard work. Nothing we didn't already know, though I'd still applaud this if it was a character-building exercise. Instead, it was just fodder for a book and personal promotion. Sad.

aphexbr

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Lo-Pan: No. If you graduate with a 6th grade level of math, reading, and writing, have no study skills, and have never been taught how to keep up with something for a long-term commitment, you can not finish college. Or even get in.

nardo218

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Did he make the attitude connection in his book?
Sounds so much like "The Secret". Ugh.

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> When it comes down to it--even if we all had an education, or just a 'can-do' attitude, isn't somebody going to have to end up at the bottom?

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> A very facile experiment.

But, hey! Shock! A book can come out of his deep learning experiment.

Why not just get a job and keep his sense of entitlement to himself.

yaaaaaaaawwwwwnnnnn..... braaack...

Jcakes

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> This experiment is a joke. Study after study have shown most homeless people have mental problems..you have mental problems you usually aren't reliable and can get fired.

So yeah this kid was probably a god-send for moving companies looking for cheap labor. Dependable and not crazy.

EricaKane

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @aro:

Good luck my friend cause very soon I am about to join you. Finishing my marketing major and pay the loans. This guy I assume had all set up for him by his parents and others but his little experiment proved nothing. We do this on the day to day basis so nothing special about him.

Techno Viking

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> You can succeed well, especially if you're able bodied, male [i.e. more likely to be hired for manual labor jobs, and less physically vulnerable], young, have no outstanding health issues - and God-forbid that you're mentally ill, such as many many homeless folks - and no outstanding debts. Also, no child to support, thus no child care issues, the ability to live anywhere (not true if you have a child), oh, and for good measure also definitely do not have to worry about, say an abusive spouse, ex-spouse,boyfriend, or the like. Yes, then it's easy to succeed and get out of poverty.

Rabbigrrl

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: Yeah, this format isn't conducive for extensive discussion. It's too bad, because it's hard to find people on the internet who genuinely want to civilly discuss rather than snark and insult.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @ivanthepig:
As has been said time and time again, this guy had all the advantages and chose to slum it for a while. Hell, I can choose to slum it for a while but that in no way makes my life experience nearly the same as Isadora or the many others who have had to fight tooth and nail just to get a hint of success.

Ultimately, it is easy to slum it when you know it is only temporary and by choice.

This little phrase from from "Pulp" says it all.

Common People by Pulp.

Rent a flat above a shop,
cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool,
pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all.

DaleM

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Funny, I did the same thing for 12 months in Duluth, Minnesota back in 2004 - but for other reasons then publicity. I did it for personal experience.

ivanthepig

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Wow, haven't seen this many comments since that guy sent his cruddy PS3 in for service. :)

Twenty five some odd years ago I managed a Domino's Pizza in the area of Seattle that was (at that time) frequented by a lot of homeless people. The homeless would come into our store and ask for handouts.

I had a Domino's uniform, freshly cleaned, ready for them. The phone spiel was easy to learn, this was back in the days when Domino's only sold Pizza and gave away free Cokes, very simple operation.

So the deal was: I'll pay you to work. Come in anytime (I was always shorthanded back then), put on a shirt and take some orders for me for a couple hours and I'll pay you cash and feed you.

In two years, I was taken up on the offer once. Most of the "needy" just grumbled and walked out when I suggested work. Some got cranky. Only one took me up on it. The guy who did explained to me why - most of his friends made more money begging than working. Some of them weren't even homeless, they just kept grubby clothes around because nobody gives pocket change to a well-dressed hobo.

There are a lot of different reasons to be homeless, then as now. Not one of the people who came in and asked for free food and refused to work for it were unable to answer a phone. They all had working hands and ears and spoke English clearly (enough anyway for Domino's). I hope we can solve this problem but after my experience I'm convinced many simply don't want to work, because begging makes more money.

humphrmi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: I actually would like to continue this as well, but a) it's time for "family time" (and dinner) and b) The Consumerist comment system is beginning to piss me off. I have to reload the page like 50 times to get fresh comments... I don't think it was intended for more than 100 comments. That's usually enough room for folks to get their snark in and bolt.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Oh, what a joke. A kid with a lifetime of advantages on a paid for college education slums around for a year and he thinks he proved something? What a self-righteous jerk. I know plenty of kids like this in school. They felt an education was a birth right and NEVER understood what people who had to borrow themselves into their 40's just to get a chance at what they had given to them. I didn't get to go grad school because I was already deeply in debt. These guys had parents who put them up in posh apartments while paying for yet more education. They are the embodiment of those who were born on third base and thought they hit a triple. They refuse to step back and see their privilege, which justifies both their self-importance and their judgementalism. Bah!

BStu

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @girly: great point.

yesteryear

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I can't even list how many advantages this kid had starting out. I'm not even talking about a credit card and a safety net. He very likely had decent clothes, haircut, and a profound lack of debt.

I am one of those "success" stories--I've pulled myself up (by my bootstraps!) from my lower working class family to almost solidly middle class! And let me tell you? It really f*cking sucked.

I had to figure out every element of going to college myself (nobody to ask who had done it), pay for everything myself (*waves at student loan police*--we'll be besties for at least the next 17 years), had to learn to manage my own money, buy a crappy car that had a habit of breaking down every five minutes (thanks Discover Card for paying for those repairs), and try to figure out what to do after college with no grown-up connections whatsoever. Add to that a sickly mother, no health care for myself, and a general sense of dispair that things were never going to really, truly change no matter how hard I worked and you start to get a glimpse of what it really feels like to be poor. And the college degree was not exactly a "get out of white trashdom free" card. Welcome to crushing debt!

Universal health care. Free college. Those are "hand-outs" us PWTs could use.

isadora

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Great googly moogly. Of all the things I send in to the Consumerist and they finally post something and I start a massive comment war. Go me!

covaro

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Cripes, people, this kid didn't have to do this experiment. He read Nickel and Dimed and was interested enough to do what he did...at least he cares a little bit. He could hardly make himself into a non-white disabled illegal immigrant with a drinking habit and a large dependent family just to see what it was like. Perhaps he'll go on to do more and better in the future, take up something where he works with the less privileged.

Glaven

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: Ah, well. Maybe another time. I would genuinely like to hear the reasons why. I don't agree that neither side would truly understand. I think the discussion, if a Republican ever truly answered my questions, could still be civil, and I might just understand those answers, even if I didn't agree. At least you didn't merely regurgitate talking points, which is usually what happens. I either get those, or a brush off.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Not everyone in the US is poor. Not everyone who was poor stays poor.

So his experiment represents one of those people who was poor but didn't stay poor.

The book "Nickel and Dimed" is more useful for understanding poverty because it proves what some people would be less likely to believe--that you can work hard and still struggle.

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: Again, this is why I didn't want to go into the political during this discourse.

I am tempted to rebut your post as I am truly intrigued, but I suspect that we could argue our positions (with supporting evidence on both sides) until we were blue in the face and neither of us would change our minds or truly understand the position of the other person in the end. I think you alluded to this earlier. But, such is the fabric that is our America. Gotta love the two-party system.

I think we have both done a fine job at keeping this a civil discussion and I have truly enjoyed reading everyones opinion on this subject, but I feel that we are going down a dark and ugly road right now. I really don't want to go there right now. Some other time, maybe?

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> this guy is a fraud. he's a good looking young kid who wants to prove a point that's already been made a million times - and is still wrong. the major hole in his "experiment" is that he doesn't have a lifelong history of being destitute and the accompanying depression and hopelessness that often crop up as a result. i grew up poor, put myself through college (it took ten years!), and now i have a great job that pays well and i still have money issues - how you're raised really makes a difference in how you deal with work/money/etc. read 'rich dad, poor dad'.

and to all of the 'bootstrappers' out there - can someone please point me to the country/society where the government has not given all of the 'lazy poor people' a 'free handout' and it's resulted in no poor people?

some people need help... those of us who do not, those of us who are successful, it is our job to help them. it's part of living in a society. it's the price way pay to live in a country where we don't have poor people starving to death and living in cardboard shanty towns and sleeping in our streets (unless you live here in San Francisco, that is).

yesteryear

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: First point: The rich don't pay their fair share proportionately. It doesn't matter if the sum total of the amount of taxes paid come from the rich. That's no surprise considering the sheer amount of money they make. Since they benefit the most, that's only fair. The poor and middle class pay a much bigger chunk of their income toward taxes. That's why it makes no sense to give the rich and corporations all the huge tax breaks. And that's exactly what the Republicans do every time, with the blessing of the people who vote for them. I don't understand this. Do you realize that if they taxed the rich and corporations the same way they taxed us, we, the poor and middle class, could pay substantially less? Yes, we, the people who provide the infrastructure and labor to the corporations that that profit heavily, and the rich people who reap the benefits. You still haven't explained why this is wrong.

Second point. Why shouldn't corporations pay their fair share? They benefit from the very infrastructure you and I are paying disproportionately for. Again, I don't see the problem here, and you haven't explained why that is a problem to tax them.

Third point, how is that not socialistic? Because we'd still be a capitalist society. The corporations wouldn't even feel the sting. It doesn't change the fabric of our society or change how we do things in the least. The health care proposal reeks of socialism. Again, why? No major social uphevals are required. We're still a capitalist, democratic society. You don't have to agree with it, but calling it socialist is wrong. You've still yet to explain why it is socialism.

Fourth point, not going there? I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to go there, either.

Lastly, no, I don't mean those countries. Try everywhere in Western Europe except for the UK. Hell, try Canada.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: Oh, seriously. You can't possibly believe she meant taking the whole wad of the oil companies' profits. This is Hillary Clinton. If she's not corporation-friendly, I don't know who is.

And textually, taking doesn't necessarily imply taking the whole as opposed to merely taking a part. It just implies some taking of an unnamed portion. No reason to assume one over the other, unless one is clearly unreasonable--like reading her comment to mean 100% would be.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: I see a difference between taking a businesses profits and taxing them.
Taxing = taking a percentage of your profits.
Taking your profits = taking 100% of your profits.

Maybe she meant "tax", but she is too good a public speaker to make that rookie mistake, isn't she? Either way it was very ominous to me.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Oh, also, this is a shameless plug for an under-appreciated TV show, but if anyone wants insight into the kind of suffocating environment that this guy is trying to prove anyone can escape, watch season 4 of The Wire.

Vanvi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I thought there was hope, but was wrong. You could have saved your typing and simply wrote: see FOX News talking points.

planochap

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @deadlizard: My family is one of the families who immigrated with nothing, and made a good life...so why is it that so many people born in this country who speak English can't seem to do it?

UpsetPanda

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> 1. He's white.
2. He's male.
3. He has no kids.
4. He's college educated.
5. He's not actually poor.

An interesting experiment but not really a good commentary on how difficult or easy it is to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps."

seanmcleary

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> The government is always taking your profits. It's called taxing you. Unless you want to get rid of all taxes (which no one does, because without taxes, you don't have a dependable military, which even Milton Friedman agrees is necessary), then you don't have a problem with the government taking your profits; you have a problem with them saying it that way. Again, a question of labels. Which I'm not terribly interested in as a policy-matter. (Academically, though? Fascinating.)

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: See, this is why I was reluctant to get into this and start with the politically charged diatribe. I will briefly address some of your questions since I am convinced that you are genuinely interested in the answer and not looking for a way to entrap me. I don't really think this is the most ideal forum to get into it, but... I'm having fun.

1.) The rich benefit the most from society, yet pay proportionately the least.
I believe that the rich pay the lions share of taxes in this country. Something like 80% of the taxes, I think? So to say they need to "pay their fair share" seems odd to me...

2)But people with your viewpoint never explain how helping poor people, which by extension helps us all, is any different than providing any other service that benefits us?
Like I think I said, I'm cool with helping those that need AND want help. I tossed the socialistic thing out there because of the way I see the current crop of politicians wanting to fund these programs. In a speech, referring to oil company profits, Hillary said that she is going to "take those profits and give them to..." (I don't recall to whom). How is that NOT socialistic? Maybe Communistic? The government taking private companies profits? If I wanted any part of that I would move to Venezula, thank you. The Health care proposal reeks of socialism too, I'm going to be REQUIRED to buy into it? No sir, I don't like it (with apologies to Mr. Horse).

3)But look what voting Republican has gotten us? A crappier economy, a war sucking trillions and costing us the precious lives while wrecking havoc and making things even worse and breeding more terrorists in the countries we're fighting

I am SO not going there. Sorry.

4) Look at the countries that employ the "socialism" you decry. Better standards of living for all. What is wrong with that?

Russia, China, France, Venezuela, Cuba? Whats wrong with them? Really? I'm being loose with my interpretation of socialism and communism, I know, but I have a HUGE problem with the government being that comfortable telling me what I can and can't do and feeling like they can take my money or product for the common good. Look at Venezuela, for example, and tell me that that is the country you want us to emulate.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @jaewon223: I think the problem is less with the fact that he was able to do what he did, and more with the attitude he expressed and the conclusions he drew from his experience. Of course, it's a good thing any time anyone is able to pull themselves out of a bad situation. The problem is with his apparent dismissal of the advantages he had. It is significant that he always had an out. That goes a long way toward having a positive attitude about the whole thing. I guarantee no one else in that shelter had a valid credit card at the ready in case of an emergency, for example. None of them were able to stop the ride and get off, as he was able to do when a crisis emerged. I think the point is there is a big difference pretending to be poor, as he was doing, and actually being poor. Other people who have done similar experiments were careful to note those differences, and were doing them to bring to light the problems the poor experience, not downplay them as character flaws.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Many immigrants come to this country with nothing but the clothes on their backs. They have no education, no papers and most times don't speak any English, yet they get into the workforce and end up raising theur families. If they can do it, I'm not surprised a privileged white boy can.

deadlizard

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I haven't read all the comments either, but I agree with some points that I think should be repeated.
1. Race - he's a white male. That's a significant advantage already, especially among those living in poverty.
2. Education - it may not have been stated, but it shows in his speech and mannerisms.
3. Language - English is his first language. Again, +1 for him.

Vanvi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I honestly just think it's hysterical that the people congratulating this guy are the quickest to hate on poor people for "choosing" to be in their situations. Here's a guy, who amazingly literally, CHOSE TO BE POOR, far more clearly than your average "welfare queen" does. Why aren't people sickened by that?

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @KJones: how is it backwards to think "if you are making money you get less welfare" seems spot on to me. If you are making money, you assitance.

xtc46

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Two things I wonder:
1. did hey donate to the shelter before the experiment to compensate for their resources he was about to waste, so it did not affect anyone?
2. The job he got, was he the only one who applied for it , or did he beat out someone who actually needed it?

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Why is everybody ragging on this guy? Yes he had something to fall back on and yes this was an experiment but I don't see why that matters if he really did only start out with $25 and didn't tap into credit history or used his education for a starting point.

Also using facilities for the underprivileged is legitimate because those opportunities are available to anybody that is in a similar situation.

A lot of people are missing the point of that this young guy was able to eek out a decent living from nothing. This is not representative of all poor people I am very well aware of but it does show a good example that it is quite possible to do so.

Don't forget though that he probably had no health care, doesn't have a family or children to take care of, I will assume he has a minimum of a decent education since he did go to college and finish (although he didn't use it as an advantage his knowledge is one nevertheless), and he started out with no debt. Many people that are poor are stuck in their situation because it's a vicious cycle they are placed in.

jaewon223

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: They get it from you and me, instead of the rich. Why are you okay with that? The rich benefit the most from society, yet pay proportionately the least. The poor and middle class suffer the largest burden. I don't get why some are okay with this. It makes no sense. And oil companies profits are astronomical. You could triple the amount of taxes they pay and not scratch the surface. I know, I know. Differences of opinion. But, it really is hard to understand. No one ever explains the why of these opinions.

Yes, I agree that the Repub/Dem thing probably is veering off topic, though I think the questions this college student raises really gets to the heart of the differences. You contend that helping people is socialistic. But people with your viewpoint never explain how helping poor people, which by extension helps us all, is any different than providing any other service that benefits us? Never mind the actual costs of these programs is small potatoes compared with other tax expenditures that benefit is far less. I'd like for once for someone to explain why it's any different? Because I don't think a single person I've ever discussed this with has ever explained it. They just revert back to "It's socialism. I'm a Republican. That's that." You vote for Republicans because Dems are socialist. But look what voting Republican has gotten us? A crappier economy, a war sucking trillions and costing us the precious lives while wrecking havoc and making things even worse and breeding more terrorists in the countries we're fighting. Look at the countries that employ the "socialism" you decry. Better standards of living for all. What is wrong with that? That's another question that never gets answered . What about the improvements in the standard of living in our own country since we started employing this "socialism". Always with the crickets there, too. Never mind the fact that none of these programs detract from capitalism the way true Socialism does. I think if someone finally did address these issues during these discussions, some headway might be made. I'm not promising I'd change my mind personally, but I'd like to at leas try to understand that mindset better.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: Oh, I see. You're BFF with Pithlit, but not me? I'm crushed.... It's because I vote Republican, isn't it...? Well, I guess I'll just take my bag of money (better to light by huge cigars with) and have my chauffeur take me to the country club early to drown my hurt feelings in 25 year old scotch.

Just kidding. I had fun talking to you about this stuff.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> It's interesting how civil the discussion here actually became. Perhaps by Page 2, all the emotion has gone out of it.

Private vs. Government "charity" -- the money is there to take care of people, but it's not coordinated. Little pockets end up with money for their programs; charities only support the things they want to support (or they like to show off with big Xmas baskets, but little the rest of the year). States have some programs, the feds others, vets get some services, mentally ill get others. It's too big and matrixed to work... and it's not really a system at all.

RandomHookup

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @UpsetPanda: I think you can apply what you've learned to that task, though...

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I wonder what a sociologist might comment on this...

Is it possible that he has a manner of speech or set of behaviors that cue people to give him things (that he's developed as part of his upbringing) or that people who hire identify with or are more accepting of?

I'd assume he had higher expectations (as he would be raised to have and being accustomed to having more)at the very least.

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Rectilinear Propagation: Most career centers don't teach you how to find a job as a day laborer though.

UpsetPanda

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> This has an important exception:

He was a healthy educated adult male who just recently became "poor".

It's a little different when you've been like that for years, aged prematurely, have health issues that haven't been attended to (injuries from past jobs, ignored health problems), etc. etc. Just because he didn't "use" his education doesn't mean he didn't use it on a more basic level. He had a lot better education in managing a budget with a college degree than some kid who dropped out in middle school to work for food.

Most people don't become poor with $25. They are poor in debt, with people after them, health problems, social problems, etc. etc.

If he had a loan shark and the mob after him, and he was a diabetic war vet with psychological problems... that would have been a very interesting experiment.

He just proved the obvious. If you have no reason to be poor, you won't be poor.

Obviously testing the real thing is unethical. You can't put some advantaged-ill person on the streets as a social experiment.

Interesting work, but should be taken with a grain of salt.

digitalgimpus

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: Oh, agreed. I just don't want them to be the end-all and be-all for anyone for something vital. (You also did an awesome job explicating the "whim" thing. We're like totally BFF now.)

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> The point is that the kid was able to get a job that paid for a home of sorts, without using the actual college education.

@Lo-Pan: He said he didn't tell anyone he had a degree. That isn't the same thing as not using the college education.

Lots of colleges have Career Centers, classes on getting a job, public speaking classes, etc. There's plenty that he would have learned in college that would help him find and get a job that he probably used even though he didn't put it on his resume.

Rectilinear Propagation

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Lo-Pan: The article says Merrimack College in Mass. I looked it up at collegeboard.com.... middle 50% of first year students SAT scores were 520 - 580 for writing, 530 - 590 for math, which is pretty normal for a non-Ivy Leaguer or the equivalent. Of course, this is the new test, so I think he may have taken the older test, that I took which didn't have the writing portion, and just had math and verbal. In contrast, Harvard's middle range is 700 - 800. Merrimack's GPA graph says "34% had h.s. GPA between 2.5 and 2.99" which isn't terrible, but that was the highest percentage, with "10% had h.s. GPA of 3.75 and higher" - 10% who presumably got into "better" colleges.

Honestly, my SAT scores sucked...the SATs are a poor way of gauging intelligence and ability, because it tests what you know, but not your ability to learn…some people with a below average high school education can become amazing in college because they have a high ability to learn, the ability was just dampened in an environment not conducive to learning. I did horribly at them, but when I got into college, I made the dean's list, got into an honor society and became an editor with my college paper….some people I know did worse in high school than I did, but continued doing poorly in college. It's a matter of motivation, not smarts. One who studies their butt off and makes A's is just as worthy as a "naturally" smart person who doesn't study and merely makes B's.

UpsetPanda

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I think repealing tax cuts on the obscenely rich would be a good place to start. And now you know why I'm not super pleased with any of the current choices for president, policy-wise.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> For his next experiment, he will fast for two months and then see if he can recover from anorexia.

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @maztec: I think has to be older and unattractive, too.

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Ah consumerist. We hate on people with money and people without money all in the same post.

HRHKingFriday

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> good article.

Now what would have happened if he was black, or mexican?

And he always had a way out.

I think that yes, you can work hard and make a good living in america, but I also think that our society stacks the deck heavily against the poor.

balls187

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Youth goes a long way. I wonder how many people his age were at the shelter?

girly

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit:
@Dashrashi:
Yeah. Let's not go there except to say that I disliked Kerry more than I disliked GW (and still do BTW).

I was reluctant to go down the Democrat/Republican road for fear of starting a flame war or de-railing the discussion, but you have to admit we were all thinking it. That may have been my undoing. In an attempt to avoid labeling myself, I may have mis-labeled myself as a libertarian. I really am a conservative that votes Republican, typically, simply because it has been my experience that Democrats are simply too socialistic. Listening to the speeches of the Democratic front-runners and they want to do universal health care and several other things and I'm concerned about how they plan to fund this stuff.
Raising taxes on the wealthy? I think that is a bad idea (and no, I'm not wealthy). Raise taxes for "Big Oil", again I disagree. That just depresses the job market, ultimately. The only place I see where they can get more money is from you and me.

And Dashrashi, I'm not really doing anything different than the presidential candidates, am I?

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I want to clarify my position on charities and say that I'm not anti-private charity. I've given money to them myself. I just don't think we can rely on them entirely as a solution for society's ills. I hope I haven't offended anyone who works for one, and I didn't mean to downplay the enormous amount of good they have done for many people.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @bohemian: smart enough to finish college??? I didn't read the entire article, but what college? I think that everyone (less the people with actual mental/developmental handicaps) is smart enough to finish college. now, whether they are motivated enough....that's something else

The point is that the kid was able to get a job that paid for a home of sorts, without using the actual college education. I'm not saying that his experiment proved that every homless person or welfare recipient can move up in the world, but chances are that most can at least do a little better for themselves. Especially those that already have some type of housing arrangement through the state/county/feds.

Lo-Pan

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Teaching someone how to fish takes time. In the meanwhile, they need to eat. And thus, in the meantime, we need to give them fish to eat. And when they can fish for themselves, they can eat because they have a skill.

As in, we need some sort of annual guaranteed income for everyone along with teaching them a skill so that they can enter the skilled labor market. Skilled labor's not just accounting, it's not just medicine, or law, it's also plumbing, electrical work, etc. etc.

If we are to reduce poverty in this country, the rich need to get off their fat asses and actively help fund programs that provide vocational training or education to poor people who want it (that's the LONG TERM solution) and provide some sort of temporary assistance in the short term, because the process of vocational training/education->getting a job and earning a decent salary TAKES TIME. In the meanwhile, we need to give them some sort of financial assistance so that they don't have to worry about what they're going to eat for dinner tonight and focus on their vocational training/education. Because if you look at it, when everyone has a stable job and can support themselves, we can start cutting taxes and paying off the national debt.

That's the solution to this country's poverty crisis. Siphoning off welfare doesn't work.

sue_me

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: I think I know what you're talking about. I was sorely tempted to mention that as well, but thought it might veer the topic too far off track. But, it was the first thing I thought of.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: You're freaking awesome. I also must say, I'm saddened to see people harping on useful social programs as if they're a waste of tax dollars, while the real problem is pork barrel spending on both sides of the aisle.

I also hear we're having some sort of expensive problem in Iraq.....

SexierThanJesus

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: It's not making excuses, it's pointing out the problems that need to be solved if we actually want to fight poverty. Improving education, medical care, and job opportunities will do a lot more for the poor than shouting "Bootstraps!" and sticking up some more Ron Paul bumper stickers.

And since the junk food vs. healthy food cost debate is here again, I'd just like to remind people that fresh produce spoils lightning-quick in the old, poorly-maintained refrigerators common in low-income apartments. An 85c head of lettuce is a lot more costly than a 1.20 box of mac & cheese if you only get to eat one meal's worth of it before it rots.

Kajj

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> It's wryly amusing that he tried to do an anti-Nickel-And-Dimed-To-Death, then failed. Someone got sick, he bailed. Just like those 40m Americans can when they face the inevitable medical catastrophy. No, wait, they can't. Oops.

I think a more honest person would hit the interview circuit saying, "I tried, I really thought it'd be easy. But then something out of my control happened that wrecked all my plans. It's given me pause on how I'll think about this from now on."

It annoys that he bailed two months early, and instead trumpets his "experiment" as a success. As though taking advantage of our frayed social net, his background, his advantages and good health wouldn't result in anyone like him being able to find a room to rent and a truck. No huge accomplishment.

Typical that the media doesn't call him on it.

Nice to see all the thoughtful posts here, though. Really good job, people!

Trai_Dep

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: This was meant to be in response to PEEVED GUY. Sorry about that.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I'm simply saying that "small as reasonably possible" cannot be more than code words for "government that only funds things I think are necessary," and so it's merely a catch-phrase, and not very useful for articulating an actual policy preference.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: I can think of one specific money-suck specifically. Perhaps the libertarians shouldn't have reelected George Bush. I don't imagine they voted for Kerry in 04.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: Whatever. I was trying to clarify my world view in the hopes explaining to some folks reading this that not all conservatives are evil, power-hungry, rich, old men who dress like Mr. Monopoly and use poor people as door stops, but many are concerned with overly-liberal politicians getting a little to spend happy with our money.

If you feel the need to analyze my words for the sake of comparing me to other outspoken conservatives, then have-at.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Sorry, but this is the STUPIDEST EXPERIMENT EVER!

It is flat out impossible to simply strip oneself of one's privilege. That someone with a college degree thinks otherwise only says something about how rampant anti-sociological thinking is.

The fact that anyone might read this unbelievably unscientific story and think that it actually says anything (other than that this dude is very naive) makes me understand why I wind up giving so many poor grades: some people have no critical thinking skills!

coreyander

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> The problem with private charities is they depend upon what and when people give, meaning they have no or little long term planning ability. They cannot have economies of scale. They tend to duplicate each other's work to a large degree. They are dependent on what people want to give for, not necessarily what would be in the best interest of society to fund. It's not unusual for charities to get plenty of money for flashy events but almost nothing for the basic infrastructure necessary to make a real difference in the problem. Besides, with private charities, if you don't like who's mismanaging the charity of your choice, there's really not much you can do about it. You can hope to find another that matches where you'd like your money to go, or you can start your own charity, provided you have the resources and knowhow to do so. If a charity is mismanaged out of existence, or fails due to lack of donations, the needy are suddenly left hanging. This is exactly why that system failed in the past. A much better model that has already proved to be superior is one based on governmental oversight, where we collectively and democratically as a society address the needs of its citizens.

All I can say about your mistrust of the government taking your tax dollars: Your tax dollars go the same place other people's taxes go. Where the democratically elected government decides they do. Convince your fellow citizens that they are wrong about the necessity of certain programs. That is your right as a citizen. But, keep in mind your tax dollars wouldn't even exist without the government. If you were born in the Sudan or Afghanistan, you wouldn't have nearly what you do here. The reason for this is the very government you distrust. I think you're misguided in your mistrust of it and wish to see it reduced. It's a very Libertarian stance to take, rather than a conservative one. I also think you grossly overestimate the amount of tax dollars that actually go to these social programs you're against. Social conservatives like to harp on these programs because of the moral judgments against the people who need them. True fiscal conservatives know there are much bigger fish to fry. There are much bigger tax waste issues out there, by far. There isn't enough time or space for me to go into all of them.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Jraktal: This isn't even legible. Are there programs? Do they help? Are they...well-funded? Is alcoholism a choice that can be "overcome" by the person "picking themselves up"? I mean...have you ever had any experience with addictions? Or read anything about them?

You can't ignore the economics because they make you uncomfortable.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I wholeheartedly disagree with the presumption that everyone on the streets is broken or defective and therefore requires us to take complete and total care of them while they return little or nothing. I do agree that many have a difficulty of some sort, (Drug, Alcohol, and other abuses) these can and should be overcome by the person (pick themselves up) and with the thousands of aid agencies that exist to help them as well, however there are many that cannot be corrected (psychological) due to lack of access to meds or refusal to take said meds when available.

to sum up: as a democratic society we allow others to make bad choices wallow in squallor, help is available, most refuse that help, or are uneducated/idiotic enough to not understand what real help entails (IE Hard Choices).

here in Canada we have a socialized system (IE Communist) and have lots of homeless, we have aid agencies that are supposed to help them, but the issue does not go away.

Cause the problem is a universal one and crosses all borders, the issue is not economic one like most liberals would like t you to think, it is Human condition one.

Jraktal

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: A lot of people who think like you re "small govt" don't agree that schools should be funded by the gov't; others think that welfare and adult literacy programs should be. At that point, "as small as reasonably possible" is merely code for "what I like and think is necessary," and so it's just a question of line-drawing. You think schools are necessary; Milton Friedman disagrees with you. He would say that a government that funds public schools is not as small as reasonably possible. So you're actually a big-government spendthrift from his POV.

So "small as reasonably possible" is not really a phrase with a lot of meaning, as I see it. You can always go smaller. Or bigger. It just depends on what you want, and you go and call it "necessary."

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @darkened:

So in your opinion all poor people are thieves, drug abusers, alcoholics, and feed off various public services. Evidentially you are quite proud of your ignorance as you proudly state in you rant, "I have no real statistics to back up whether it is or is not". Well lets hope a catastrophic illness hits you, your health insurance dumps you, and you lose your job only to find out your investments are worthless due to the banking industry screwing everybody.

DaleM

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: To be clear, when I say "small government", I mean "as small as is reasonable possible" (i just don't want to type that all the time). I, too, think that taxes for roads and schools and cops and firefighters, etc. are necessary and good. And, I don;t mind paying higher property taxes for better schools (something I didn't in the last election, BTW). But, politicians, in my experience, don't stop at the necessities. They need to get more and more and more of my money. Money that I work hard for (except for when I'm posting on this time sucking site :-) ) and would like to keep. This is why I explained in an earlier post that I am NOT a "Neo-Con", they spend like sailors on shore-leave.

You say that the private charity model couldn't hold up, well, I think the same could be said for the welfare model, too. I just can't help but disagree with you that more funding would be panacea. Would it help, undoubtedly, but I really have a hard time trusting the government to do anything right when it comes to managing money. Blow the shit outta people they can do, but not manage money.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Falconfire: THIS

Mr. Gunn

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Main problem is people on the streets are mostly mentally ill. Not really a fair comparison. To follow up, they should be taken off the streets and put into clinics that can try to recuperate them.

Superborty

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: When I say Constitutionalist, I mean in the sense of "government doing only that which is explicitly stated in the Constitution".

I respect your opinion that the govt. should provide, but my opinion is that smaller government = good.

I think we have run into the conservative/progressive divide. I'm not say that to be inflammatory, but I suspect this is the point where a compromise cannot be reached. We can agree that something needs to be done, but not how to pay for it.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> That's a viewpoint I have a tough time with. I don't get the "small government" crowd. I like having good roads. I love having a great public school I can send my kids to. I love the benefits of that public school education system, as imperfect as it is, every time a graduate of that system provides me with an invaluable service. Those things wouldn't exist without the government some seem to despise. I don't want a government weakened and narrowed to such a useless degree as the "small government people" seem to want. It isn't there just for protection from outsiders. It never was. Go take a look at countries with weak infrastructures. That's the result of a weakened, reduced government.

There's a reason I put "small government" in quotes, because my viewpoint isn't about "big government". It's about a functioning government. What is the point of having a government if we're all supposed to live as individuals and provide only for ourselves and our own immediate needs? The countries with the best quality of living are those that have a strong, efficient government. I think "small government" proponents seriously underestimate just how much our "big government" makes the wheels turn and makes our lives go as smoothly as they do.

Getting back to the scope of this discussion, we used to be a country that relied more heavily on private charity. That system failed us miserably, which is why we have the government programs we have in the first place. They were enacted BECAUSE private charity simply couldn't hold up. If they'd worked, we never would have had to go to a government based system. We already tried your way. It didn't work.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: That's not "Constitutionalist," that's libertarian. No particular reason to think that the lists of what gov't should do were meant to be exhaustive, imo.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> to peeved guy: and whenever private charities are out of favor or fail, what then?

planochap

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: I guess it depends on how "Constitutionalist" you want to get, really. (Govenment should provide defense only, etc.)

It seems that you are of the opinion that the government is, or should be, responsible for all sorts of services, whereas my conservative roots are showing in that I believe in as small a government as possible.

Barring the involvement of more government, the obvious alternative is privately funded charities.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @SexierThanJesus: Yeah the experiment side of it wasn't too significant, but the only way it would've truly been a good experiment was if he started in a good bit of debt, and that has ramifications on his 'other life' that I wouldn't have chanced either. After all, banks aren't going to understand "but I was trying to understand the condition of poverty" when they see you had significant debt. I think the right statement should be "this wasn't extremely difficult for me, but with a few tweaks like debt, criminal record, or health problems it could have been much worse."

UpsetPanda

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @mistaketv: You ever heard of Jon Hanson? I think you'd like his work.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @UpsetPanda: It definitely counts for something, but I'm not sure it was the "see how easy it is to be poor!!!" statement he thought it would be.

SexierThanJesus

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I see how the experiment is flawed, but look at how far he's gone...would most college grads with a privileged life (supportive family, college education) leave that for however long and live with next to no money? He didn't know what was out there, and he pointed that out...his education was a disadvantage, because he didn't know what life on the streets was like. And the fact that he didn't call on any friends or contacts means that he was truly alone. Yes, he was healthy and was able to get a good job, but what did he eat during that time? I guarantee that unless he was finding a way to be properly nourished every single day, his health deteriorated just a little.

Anyways, kudos to him for roughing it just a little, and emerging wiser. It's more than a lot of us would have done, and that counts for something.

UpsetPanda

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: Actually, I do agree with DASHRASHI in that it has to come from society. Othewirse, nothing has changed, really. It has to be seen as a basic right in our society, not a whim of whoever happens to be doing the giving at the moment, and the only way to do that is to make it a part of the basic underpinning of our society. The government is the very underpinning of our society. It's not something scary to be feared. It is us. It's our schools. Our roads. Our infrastructure. Those are all very basic needs that are met through that structure. We're all pretty much guaranteed those things only because they're a solid part of that government infrastructure, and not based on the whims of the market, or whatever is popular with the majority at the moment.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> plus being reasonably good looking and white, he ups his chances of success.

[www.chicagogsb.edu]

ironchef

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Tonguetied: You would theoretically have a record that would give some employers a reason to refuse you employment . . .

maztec

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Go Go Gadget Gap Year!

veraikon

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I respect what this guy tried to pull off, but I have to echo everyone else who called "BS" on it. I grew up on welfare with a single mother, and when she was diagnosed with cancer, I couldn't just "call the experiment off". I had to make sacrifices. And you know what? She made a lot of sacrifices for me too, only to have people like a few of our fellow commenters accuse her of being "poor and lazy".

I have a pretty great job now, but I don't want to think about where I'd be if it weren't for those government programs so many of you despise.

SexierThanJesus

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Choice is an illusion. 90% of who you are as a person is outside of your control. And good luck with that 10% and all your "choices." And anyway, how can you really ever prove that with your exact brain and your exact experience and your exact immediate situation, you could have ever made any other choice than the one you did? If you had chosen differently, you wouldn't have been you.

Just because you don't care to think about all the complex variables that made you who you are and your life what it is, including the most complex of all--your brain (also not within your control, btw)--doesn't mean they don't have a very real effect.

So basically, bootstrappers, it's just not that simple.

mistaketv

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Rectilinear Propagation:

Nope.

TechnoDestructo

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> what strikes me, having been homeless myself and often unable to stay in a shelter because they were already full, is that this guys "test of the american dream", in effect, pushed someone who WAS actually homeless out of a shelter ... that, and those food stamps he got were on our tax dollar!

OriginalGabriel

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Tallanvor: Perfectly put. He was trying to prove a conclusion at which he had already arrived. He didn't graduate from college in Massachusetts and try this in Boston, did he? He graduated in Mass, moved back to the warm, cheap, familiar south and THEN tried his 'experiment'.
@mac-phisto: Hells Yeah.

brennie

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> Lets redo this but have him start with $10,000 debt and bad credit - then see where he manages to get to.

maztec

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Pithlit: Jinx. Owe me a Coke.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> It should be noted that a very large percentage of people living on the street, which is how this man began his experiment, have mental illness or a dependancy of some sort. He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple.

baabaablacksheep

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: Well, I disagree that people, even the needy, see charity as a whim.

Maybe that is where I differ from the rest of y'all. I like to think that the people who truly need the help will take it in whatever manner it presents itself, government, church, private charity, whatever and not get hung up on wether it will dry up or not because they don;t see themselves in this situation forever. Whereas those who are really counting on the never-ending supply of support from the state I see as sponges.

I hope I am explaining myself. As to your eralier point, he is starting at 0, that is a good point to make. Most times people are in a deep hole.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: Not to butt into the conversation, but I do think that many people, if they have to chose between any combination of starving ,eviction, and lack of healthcare, and taking the hand out, will take the handout. They may not necessarily feel all that good about it, which is exactly why I find it hard to believe that safety nets are a disincentive to work hard. I think that would be the case for a very small few. It's human nature. Unless drugs and mental illness are at play, people are going to want better for themselves and their families. The bare bones basics aren't going to be enough for most people. But it will make working for the better life much easier. A lot of people who have given up have likely worked at it and have simply given up, knowing it won't get them anywhere.

No one should have to work 3 jobs to barely eke out a living. That is the reality of poverty for most, particularly since welfare reform was enacted. How can anyone improve while doing so? Promotions are a lot harder to get if you're exhausted and worried about your kids getting enough to eat and getting proper care while you're out working your ass off. If their basic needs are met, they wouldn't have to.

Pithlit

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Gev: Always knowing in the back of his mind that at any time if things got too crappy he could bail and go back home probably had some effect on things.

I'd think that would make him less motivated to make it work.

D.B. Cooper-Nichol

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I would recommend that you read some of Pierre Bourdieu's work on the effect of non-monetary capital on the ability of the lower classes to catch up to those in high SES families. Being middle or upper class means more than just having money. The cultural and social capital you gain from having middle- or upper-class parents gives you an automatic edge over those from low SES families (e.g. your ability to navigate the social systems of the class in which you wish to reside). This includes things like knowing how to wisely invest and save money, how to eat and manage your health, how to avoid fights and accidents, how to deal with law enforcement and the government, and many other areas.

While I, too, believe throwing money at the system doesn't help anyone, I also don't fool myself into thinking that a kid from a good family who starts out with $25 is really in any way equal to a kid from a disadvantaged family starting out with the same dollar amount.

I taught in inner-city schools for a while, and some students didn't know the most basic "common knowledge" because it simply wasn't "common" in their SE class. It's simply not fair to claim all poor people are gaming the system and therefore we shouldn't support social programs. Should we let that crack whore mom and her children die because of a drug addiction? We certainly can't "reward" her fro doing drugs, but don't her kids deserve some chance NOT to become crack addicts/thieves/welfare queens themselves?

Ugh, I don't know -- it's all very easy to answer this stuff philosophically. I know how it is to see people gaming the system (I come from a poor, rural town) and frankly, it makes my blood boil (though most that I know were gaming Social Security/Disability).

However, I also know for a fact that social programs can mean the difference between ending generations of environmentally-influenced poverty and being given a chance to have access to upward SES mobility.

kimsama

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> I find it utterly tiresome to hear people with no experience being poor talking about the work ethic of those asking for assistance. I've been there, and seen the hypocrisy and ignorance of such people; it sucks only slightly less than being unable to find a job.

I was lucky that I had some skills and could work to get an education after being on welfare. But for those who want to get out, who want to work, the worst thing are the roadblocks: the biases against those on welfare ("They're unreliable, that's why they don't have a job."), the contradictory "thinking" - or lack thereof - by governments ("If you earn money, you get less welfare."), etc.

The "experiment" in the story was a fraud because the man had numerous advantages, as others have noted - single white male, healthy, educated - things which, without them, eliminate many from any worthwhile or passable paying jobs.

The real "welfare kings and queens" aren't those receiving welfare. The biggest scammers are those running the "job training" programs which almost always consist of nothing more than resume writing courses and paid by taxpayers at $1000 per "course" per person. That money would be better spent on something like a basic bookkeeping, secretarial or inventory management course, things which would get people a decent paying job. Instead, such programs are considered "academic" and not funded.

The real "welfare kings and queens" are those running the programs, ot those who want to get off of welfare.

KJones

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I mean, I think that meals should be free and guaranteed, if you need them and you don't have the means to pay for them yourself. Call it a meal-ticket if you want. Or food-stamps. Or government-soup kitchens. At that point it's a labeling question.

Oh, no, of course many people are too proud for both charity or welfare. But depending on charity, or advocating charity as a substitute for gov't-funded welfare programs, sends a message that taking care of the less fortunate is merely a whim and not a duty that we bind ourselves to, and I do not want it to be a whim. Not for their sake, but for ours.

Dashrashi

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: I generally agree, and I've enjoyed your comments.

As for the crack-whore mom with the kids, I just don't know what the solution is FOR THE KIDS. That makes me sad.

For people who've had bad luck, I don't think it does -- he was a single, healthy, young male with no debt. For many people who land in poverty from bad luck, those conditions don't apply. I know a family where they have two dependent children, the mother has an education but doesn't make a ton of money, and the father, who had a better job, was diagnosed with brain cancer. The cost of the medical treatments ate their savings completely and has put them DEEPLY into debt, while losing them their primary earner. So now they're trying to survive with one healthy parent on a single salary, two dependent children, a dependent adult with brain cancer who is too ill to work, massive debt ... and mom is (quite understandably) slowing going 'round the bend. She's breaking down from grief and stress, and that's obviously impacting her health.

(And while the brain cancer bit makes it a very dramatic story, it's sadly all-too-common an occurrence, albeit with less prime-time-TV-drama diseases and medical problems.)

I'm not sure what lesson his experiment has for them.

Eyebrows McGee

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @TechnoDestructo: It's deja vu all over again. Tell me you posted this on another Gawker site a long time ago, please!

Rectilinear Propagation

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Dashrashi: See, I read this:

It's not just state-funded charity, it's a long-term commitment that can't be revoked at whim, and it's a sign that they deserve to be fed, so much so that the government will provide it just as a part of everyday life.

and my brain translated it to this:


Free, guaranteed meal ticket that I don't ave to work for.

I know that's not the case all the time, as was pointed out by Eyebrows. Not to mention that I truly think people who need and deserve welfare are reluctant to take either simply because of the handout factor. I've known several people who were too proud to take welfare OR charity. But I have to reject you assertion that if someone is too proud to take charity, they would happily take welfare.

Peeved Guy

]]> <![CDATA[College Grad Succeeds With $25 And A Gym Bag]]> @Peeved Guy: He was starting at 0. A lot of people who hit bad luck are starting with debt and/or families who need to be provided for. Rather different, as I understand it.

Dashrashi

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