Reading this, I have chosen not to buy from Toshiba. But not just because I won't be able to remove bloatware. Or even because of the obviously poor tech support. (if you can call it that.) No, for me, the concern is that if the computer will become unstable as a result of uninstalling anything at all, then the computer is of poor construction to begin with. The quotes from tech support also raises fears that an incident like this could even void the warranty. Since most warranties don't protect against user inflicted damage, I would imagine that if they really believed it to be the consumer's fault, they would fight me on the warranty.

Additionally, it appears to me that, regardless of if removing a program actually caused the system crash or not, the statement that it is the consumer's fault is irresponsible. Either way, it's bad news. It means that a Toshiba computer will become unstable as a result of normal computer functions, and to blame the consumer for their own construction problems just puts the final nail in the casket.

So Toshiba, that's about 2300.00 you won't get from me.

Elliander

@Binaryslyder:

Lalu356

I... have no idea what you're talking about!

Any machine will take a Windows install. The original hardware vendor is responsible for not producing drivers for your version of Windows, not the reseller. If Realtek or Sigmatel refuse to distribute drivers that will work on XP, that's not HP/Compaq/Toshiba/etc's problem (absent, of course, any strange agreements, like those made by nVidia).

RvLeshrac

The two employers, about 90,000 seats, between them, had a local firm build "WhiteBoxes" to order that would run Windows installed from the OEM media.

UnnamedUser

I bought a Toshiba laptop in May of this year. There was nothing I could to to get Toshiba to NOT equip the machine with Vista, so I took the least expensive route an got it with Vista Home Basic.

The machine arrived in a few days. After unpacking and making sure all the parts were there, I placed an Ubuntu 7.04 Desktop CD in the CD reader and booted it up. I clicked the install and wrote a new partition table, partitioned it to my liking and installed Ubuntu Linux.

All was not perfect, however. I had to do a little tweaking to get the screen resolution right but that was it. It just worked outta the box. No phone home to check in with BigBrotherBill. ... Do you think what-his-name will throw a chair at me? ... nevermind ... No add-on anti-virus software to contend with, and pay for. No optional at extra cost brain-dead bloatware to get rid of. And, best of all, a reasonably secure platform on which I can run software.

This household is a "Windows Free Environment". Five (5) machines and not a single one of them running Windows.

You can too.

UnnamedUser

As for Toshiba, they really are the worst about bloatware. One approach is to buy a computer with highly standardized hardware (Intel motherboard, Intel-made internal wireless, Intel/ATI/nvidia graphics) then get your drivers from Intel et al. No broadcom or atheros wireless -- their chips are fine, but inevitably the drivers must come from the PC maker (often the case with atheros wifi), and then you are at their mercy.

I have never had an issue with drivers downloaded from Intel.

Wdeal

akronharry

bobblack

clickable

The removal tool may still work in your case, if you haven't tried it. You can also reinstall the trial and promptly remove it with the tool.

RvLeshrac

I unfortunately didn't use it but hunted down the processes myself. My laptop now won't hibernate or sleep.

quail

Rusted

drjayphd

What "challenges" are these and, more importantly, why are they the fault of Microsoft?

All of the hardware issues I've seen have been due to lazy hardware developers who don't want to produce new drivers.

All of the software issues I've seen have been due to either ancient software or a lack of support on behalf of the developer.

I notice that no one blames Apple for not being able to use OS3-OS9 software on OSX, as I mentioned earlier.

RvLeshrac

Granted, It didn't have drivers for anything either, but on of the things i really LIKE about vista is that drivers pretty much install themselves. You just gotta go into the device manager and it takes care of it.

The only thing that was interesting was finding a driver for the x1400 video card. Evidentally, AMD/Ati doesn't support their own card...

f0nd004u

clank-o-tron

mandarin

Benstein

disavow

lowlight69

Seriously, those of you considering a new computer don't ever buy one from Toshiba. The price/performance looks great, and when the computers work, they perform pretty well. However, if you need service or technical support, you are on your own.

acwnh

HRHKingFriday

scatyb

Hanke

Ausoleil

My HP laptop came with Vista and a nifty restore DVD creator thing so I could make restore DVDs. After the restore DVD creation failed 4 times and ruined 4 DVDs(the process requires a minimum of 2 DVDs), I said screw it, and put Linux on(not that everyone should). Never looked back.

scatyb

It should be my right as a consumer to buy a name brand PC that comes with only the software I want even if I don't want any software at all.

Brad2723

jimmy43

Panamapeter

I did it myself not too long ago. You can also do the same for any Microsoft product.

Cleaned all the bloatware off my machine by doing exactly this.

Front_Towards_Enemy

I think it is ridiculous that it told me I didn't have the correct "permissions" to uninstall, even though I'm the administrator and only user of the computer.

I was desperate to remove the nag screen. Heh.

NameGoesHere

alyssariffic

Shadowman615

Sucks, really. There's always Dynamism.

jamar0303

JustAGuy2

I find that [www.ccleaner.com] is my best tool when scrubbing a system that is not going to be complete OS reinstall. Use its uninstall feature, do a registry backup and clean, repeat for every piece of addon garbage.

savvy999

I just never subscribed to the mentality that I had to tweak a brand new computer once I bought it. Just when I felt I needed to. The companies keep doing this to PC users because we as a collective let them do it.

Yes, its not terribly hard to go into add/remove software and just run down the list till everythings gone. But if you've ever tried for fun, take it to a store and ask how much they charge for that service. CompUSA once charged my father $50 for "getting rid of all the junk."

So my argument is they either do if before I buy or give me that sort of discount right up front. : )

Binaryslyder

I usually use up one of my MSDN keys when I do a fresh install of a new/old PC... never thought about re-using the keys on COA/GA sticker.

savvy999

dmann99

Yeah, I'll never own a Toshiba again.

kimsama

Sorry 'bout the piracy Bill. But since I paid for a pre-installed copy of Windows on my new machine that is pretty much useless, I figure we'll call it even.

backbroken

popeye_doyle

vastrightwing

beavis88

True, they are much easier to uninstall, but the preloaded trial software is still there when you open the box.

robotprom

I blogged about it, and a few week later, when my post was #1 in Google for "toshiba notebook maximizer", somebody posted instructions on how to delete it. Since then I've had several posts of people pissed off about the same thing who got the solution via my blog.

[www.danray.net]

ratbastid

STrRedWolf

Back to the original topic. Back in the day Micron liked to change core Windows files as part of it's pre-load. It was at that point that I decided to just always flatten and clean load any new system I purchased.

darious

MonkeyMonk

Right.

I'll just sit here quietly.

Trae

Except that new systems don't have retail copies of the OS installed on them. They have OEM copies or, in the case of Vista, specially designed copies.

RvLeshrac

iamme99

I suspect the tech was just trying to get off of the phone and bamboozle the OP with a phrase John Q Public may not be familiar with.

ucntcme

I know that "free software" alternatives might be mentioned frequently. "Free software" isn't always free for the manufacturers to put on those PCs, though. You simply aren't allowed to distribute AVG-Free like this, for example. In the case of Open Office, the Open Office UI is still ten years behind the times, and tasks that might take the average user ten seconds in Office might take ten minutes in OpenOffice, because they aren't familiar with it.

In the case of Symantec and McAfee, I've encountered plenty of end-users who absolutely refuse to give them up. I've been cursed at for suggesting people remove Norton and replace it with NOD32, AVG, or some other non-crap antivirus.

You can only help people if they want to be helped. While it is true that a large portion of consumers don't want this crap on their PCs, a nearly equally large portion will buy a PC specifically because it is filled with this crap - then, of course, will complain about the speed of the computer. You can't please everyone, and many consumers refuse to be pleased. Just look at the numbers of people who insist on buying the cheapest $400 laptop, oblivious to the fact that it is a piece of crap - even when we, the retailers, tell them that it is horrible.

RvLeshrac

right, of course. disagreement MUST imply lack of knowledge.

g4lt

PC Decrapifier is freeware, developed by a guy who hates bloatware with a passion.

"Hire large numbers of people" what are you talking about?

Andrew

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
This may work for relatively small and self contained apps, but for just about any commercial app it'll just cause trouble. Orphaned registry entries, non-existent system services, even the lowly MRU lists could all be adversely affected by following this advice of yours.

Just try doing this with Photoshop, or Office, or anything that has spewed forth from the bowels of Symantec and you'll see what I mean.

Andrew

I know HP will provide you restore media for free while you're still under warranty if you call them and tell them that there's something wrong with the recovery disc creator. Not sure about the rest of them.

RvLeshrac

@XianZomby: And where did you pick up your laptop chassis? *cough*

EtherealStrife

If MS had been allowed to design Vista the same way Apple designed OSX, this wouldn't be a problem.

However, people shake the 'monopoly' stick at Microsoft and leave Apple alone. If it hadn't been for McAffee and Symantec threatening lawsuits, the NT6 kernel would be secure, and the system-wide registry would be locked away, safe from idiot developers who can't seem to follow the proper procedures.

HKCU is for the current user, HKU is for global users, and HKLM is for the system. Why developers can't get this through their thick skulls is beyond me. There's no requirement that an application even use the registry, and there are system variables that point to the users' appdata directories.

Keep in mind that there are some applications that can't simply be deleted on a Mac, as well. There are classes of applications that require some measure of access to the OS, but the number is much smaller than the developers would like you to think.

RvLeshrac

(drops head in disbelief)

Whoa, sweet holy pink baby Jesus...

Trai_Dep

Now, granted, the ASP that was suggested was probably one of the best Toshiba has, but, still, at least it is easier to get in touch with a small business than a huge faceless corporation like Dell if they aren't coming through.

Further, when I accidently slashed my AC adapter's cords (don't ask), it was a simple matter of going to a service station ten minutes away and picking one up. I did not have to deal with a call center or wait for shipping with a powerless laptop.

As far as "bloatware" on my Toshiba was concerned, dealing with it really was trivial. I had no issues whatsoever, and still have not. I did keep some of the "bloatware" that was not loaded into RAM at startup, mainly a program that can change some BIOS settings in Windows.

I have a hard time believing that uninstalling the default-installed programs catastrophically destroyed his system. I realize this is ad hominem, but, honestly, if the poster needed a tech to come and install a notebook hard drive (a matter of unscrewing a few screws and sliding the new hard drive into a tray), he probably should not be haphazardly uninstalling programs, given that drivers nowadays have a nack for being added to "Add/Remove Programs".

Beld

Whoa, sweet holy baby Jesus. That's so wrong I don't know where to begin.

C'mon over guys, the water's fine. Really!

Trai_Dep

Replace the motherboard, huh? In my friend's case the local shop managed to replace it with one without a 9600 mobility and put back half the ram (1gb to 512). Of course they didn't notice this until much later. This was on an M30x that had issues charging, where a little solder would have probably been enough.

namram

Hell, it's easier on a notebook than on a desktop.

TechnoDestructo

Buran

Buran

I've cleaned off enough Toshibas, Dells, Lenovos, VAIOs, HP/Compaqs, and Acers to know that there are things you can and can't remove. I've never seen a bluescreen except when removing 'vital' software, though the definition of 'vital' can differ between users and the machine.

RvLeshrac

Actually, it *is* partially Microsoft's fault. They charge far more for a license which includes the right to distribute restore media.

@guroth:

I haven't seen many problems with Toshibas.

The plus of buying a Toshiba is that they, along with Lenovo, allow their ASPs to work on the machines in-house. Easy enough to find a reliable local shop, and far better than trusting the idiot techs at HP, Dell, and Sony. I've seen retarded gibbons that do a better job than those tools. You can also be certain that the local shop is just going to, say, replace the motherboard, instead of soldering on replacement parts.

Your local shop is also less likely to wipe the HDD as part of troubleshooting. If your problem is that a key fell off the keyboard, the idiots at the manufacturer will still wipe the machine.

RvLeshrac

it's actually the most likely explanation. unless toshiba is specifically causing system faults when you remove their bloat. which also wouldn't surprise me.

arachnophilia

Not to mention the fact that some of the Toshiba/Dell/HP/Sony 'bloatware' is, in fact, vital to the operation of the system. Not all of it by a long-shot, but you have to be careful about what you remove.

Can you remove the software that puts the top-heavy alpha-blending-laden toolbar at the top of your screen? Sure, just be aware that doing so might also kill the software that allows you to use the Fn-keys.

Can you remove the crap WiFi connection manager software? Sure, just be aware that it may also remove the WiFi drivers.

On another note, for those that want to JUST install drivers when the drivers are included only in a package (Sony comes to mind here), Universal Extractor combines a bunch of command-line extraction tools into a reasonably easy-to-use GUI. It won't handle everything, but it works great for extracting Sony updates - very necessary if you want to put XP on a VAIO shipped with Vista.

[legroom.net]

RvLeshrac

You lose, thanks for playing! Try again!

Nothing happens to the data in the restore partition. HP just makes everything worse by assigning it a drive letter - causing the OS to think that the 'drive' is full. That's really the only problem.

I'm against not including restore discs, but don't lodge baseless complaints.

@Charles Duffy:

You can complain about Vista's hardware support only so long as you don't say ANYTHING about the security or stability of older Windows releases.

Microsoft has been including support for older hardware and software for years, to the detriment of the OS. I don't see anyone complaining about not being able to use OS9 software or PPC hardware on new intel Macs, despite the fact that PPC emulation is painfully easy on new hardware.

During the Whistler and Longhorn betas, I saw nothing but complaints from 'IT' personnel about how tighter security would break their networks, and how removing support for older 16-bit DOS apps would cause their businesses to spend tons of money switching applications. This was followed by complaints about security and stability. You'd think that these people would understand that direct hardware access is a source of instability, and that kernel-level access to the OS is a source of insecurity. They don't.

Blame the business customers for the problems Windows faces, not the developer. Microsoft's goal, like every other commercial developer, is to sell software. If the biggest customers whine about the OS not supporting some early-1980s crapware in-house accounting or inventory software, they have no choice but to include support - no matter what it does to the OS.

RvLeshrac

Only the "PC Restore" partition on your hard drive contains a bloatware filled Vista image.

rickhamilton620

@parad0x360: I've had all kinds of pain with vista on account of their removal of support for "obsolete" hardware. Take their network drivers, for instance -- no NE2K PCI support, no PCNET32 support, no RTL8139 support. Or their sound drivers -- no support for the original SB16. That's ridiculous!

Yes, I have a system fast enough to run Vista with all that hardware available. It's hosted by a high-end Linux box using the KVM virtualization system (this is Vista Business, hence virtualization being allowed by the license) -- so the emulated hardware is all devices which have been around long enough to be supported by any OS which even pretends to have adequate driver support.

Except, apparently, Vista.

Anyhow -- no, not necessarily the user's problem. NE2K clones and RTL8139 chipsets are insanely common as on-motherboard networking chipsets, yet neither works out-of-the-box without drivers installed. I get better hardware support on XP -- and vastly better hardware support on Linux.

Charles Duffy

You don't tell us what you were uninstalling when you got the BSOD. Maybe something you considered bloatware was in fact a key Windows update. Once you start uninstalling and/or installing software you're somewhat on your own. At that point you really need to take responsibility for my own actions.

And if I'm a tech I have no way of knowing how badly you might have screwed up your system. I'm sure you think you're a savvy user who couldn't possibly be at fault, but techs run into plenty of people who think they're far more competent than they really are.

rjhiggins

If you want a low cost prebuilt computer system, ask yourself how it is a manufacturer can afford to put everything together at such an attractive price. Don't be surprised if the answer is "bloatware." Nothing is free.

XianZomby

First, Toshiba, once upon a time, made great laptops. Several years ago, the final year I sold them, EVERY one failed during the first year.

I switched to building whitebook Asus machines (I added the CPU, RAM, HDD, optical drive, and wireless card). Performance is great but Asus is worse than abysmal at providing parts (even under warranty).

I'm now recommending HP's corporate machines. They usually have a 3 year warranty and, as corporate machines, don't have the crapware that the retail machines do.

Yes, they cost more because of the warranty and that lack of revenue from the crapware, but they work... they have to. That also explains the positive comment about the Lenovos... IBM left the mass-merchant arena years ago when their Acer-buit Aptivas fell apart. If you own a recent Dell desktop you really don't want to know where all those Acer motherboards IBM doesn't want are going.

Cary

And that tech doesn't know what he's talking about.

ninjatales

rockergal

LordKDp

Ok 1st, removing programs from the add/remove menu should never break vista contrary to what someone said above. There is a deeper issue with some of the pre-installed software doing something to vista that it shouldnt be. Only way to fix it is to figure out what app it was and find a fix online or call the developer. MS wont be able to help as it isnt their issue.

Next up, distribution method again is not MS's fault. You dont get restore disks anymore because OEM's figure its cheaper to partition the drive and put the OS on there, then let YOU make the install disk at home on a cd or dvd-r. They also only give you the option of making it once so if you lose it you are screwed.

All this hate on Vista. I have a laptop and a pc running it. The pc came with XP PRO and i got it a year before Vista. Never a single issue. Laptop was purchased about 4 months after Vista came out and again never an issue. Maybe all these Vista problems people are having arent..meaning maybe its the user.

parad0x360

jamar0303

r12ski

louisb3

Sure, there are alternatives out there, but the few users that hate QuickTime are far fewer than the users that are pissed at a lack of out-of-the-box media player.

louisb3

I don't think I'd buy another.

Xerloq

Personally I think Adobe Acrobat Reader is bloatware as the product must call home in violation of my personal security, yet computer manufacturers stick that stupid application on every computer.

When I buy a computer the only product that I want installed is the OS. Anything else installed is bloatware.

BTW, Mac's don't have bloatware? What do you call Quicktime player?

StevieD

It's funny that Mac fanboys think that Macs don't come with any garbage on them. I bought a Mac for the first time in my life this year, and was ready for a crapware-trialware-bloatware free experience.

Upon investigating the installed applications I found a seriously heinous 30-day trial of Microsoft Office.

Macintosh machines are not immune to this epidemic.

(I use OpenOffice/Neo Office and Google Documents)

b612markt

In those situations where I am recommending a disposable, I make sure to tell them that their one drop dead point should be if they get an Operating System only (with or without drivers) installation disc. If they don't, and they can't burn one from the factory fresh hard drive, they should just shoot them a bird and move on.

Then, when they get their system, I recommend that they immediately reinstall the OS and their drivers. So far, it's turned out that any applications they've wanted have either been useful enough to come on their own installation discs, or have (thankfully) been included on a piecewise installer.

Hopefully their (and my) noise about standalone installers is being (dimly, at least) heard at the big pc manufacturers.

bobhope2112

drjayphd

and the tech you talked to is an idiot, uninstalling bloatware does not ruin a computer (I do it on every computer we buy for our company)

@Pylon83: lenovo doesnt have as much trial software (aside from Symantec garbage) but they load a lot of their own crap like their "wireless connection manager" and "presentation director" all stuff you don't need and that slow the computer down.

xtc46

Computer companies get kick backs each tiem someone buys something from those trial ware...

Coder4Life

Pylon83

Buran

Buran

Buran

Actually, macs come with a lot of useful bloatware, one of the reasons to buy them. I wouldn't buy a video editing program, but iDvd and IMovie are good enough.

uricmu

This notebook I got from Dell has a Vista restore DVD. It's the entire operating system and all the trialware. Some companies will include the full operating system on a separate disc. I recommend to anyone purchasing a new notebook that comes with Vista to ensure that it comes with a restore disc, especially if you intend to install another operating system onto it.

thewriteguy

guroth

Now what happens when the disk creation wizard doesn't work? You end up with a useless "restore partition" with 256MB or so of data in it. That happened to me after I bought some not-terribly-good HP Tablet PC recently. I had to shell out almost $40 for something that should have come with my computer.

The lessons I draw from this are that HP, despite the appearances being in their favor, don't appear to know WTF they're doing with their "recovery" software (or maybe they shipped it broken because it's a good revenue generator). And that if you buy an off-the-shelf computer with Vista on it you're a bit of a sucker. I know it's not something I'm going to do again.

clevershark

dunkinbean

"The PC Decrapifier will uninstall many of the common trialware and annoyances found on many of the PCs from big name OEMs. Below is the current list of software and items that the PC Decrapifier can detect and remove. You get to see the list of items it detects and then choose what will be removed automatically."

Been using it for about a year now and carry it on my usb drive. First program I run when I help somebody set up their new pc.

hanoverfiste

I recently purchased a new notebook. First thing I did was simply wipe out Vista and install XP. I didn't even bother to boot the notebook with Vista at all. I figured it took me far less time to do a clean install of XP than to boot into Vista, wrangle with it, and un-install all of the crapware.

thewriteguy

Do you even know what bloatware is?

Sam Glover

ThomasD3

clevershark

swedub

Imagine that, reference to a mac in the post. Somehow I'm not surprised...

motoraway

ceejeemcbeegee (AKA!)

Techs have limited resources to diagnose and fix problems. It is most helpful if they start with a standard platform, even if it is sub-optimal for some users.

If the problem is not very simple to fix reinstalling the shipped software is the next step.

Apple would say the same if you started messing with OSX libraries that are installed.

Techguy1138

"I don't hear anything, do you?"

"Yeah, maybe like the buzzing of a little tiny annoying mosquito. I think it's saying 'I'm a stupid dummy who deleted all this cool software Toshiba was kind enough to give me and wrecked my once-awesome computer'."

"Gee, that mosquito is annoying. Let's ignore it."

Bay State Darren

STrRedWolf

You pay extra for something my 10 year old sister can do in a few minutes?

GBirdii

I eventually gave up with Vista and went back to XP.
Even though my laptop doesn't come with XP drivers, I inquired about them to the level two rep. Long story short, he gave me an unofficial blessing. I've managed to find compatible ones and installed XP. Lost a couple of functionality (e.g.: dialup modem and some nifty diagnostic tools, but it's not like I am ever going to use them anyway). Happy camper ever since.

azntg

socalrob

In the past when I have bought PC's I always stipulate that prior to purchase they either remove all bloatware or give me a steep discount for having to do it myself.
Worked with Dell and Compusa. Guess not toshiba.

Binaryslyder