Tell that to the Bush Administration.

bobbobbobbobbob

osofast

There you go. He acknowledged that the call is being recorded, implying his consent to have the conversation recorded (similar to how you consent to having the conversation recorded by being informed that the conversation is being recorded.)

Unremarkable

wearelegion

I.E. if you create a legal contract document, and have a statement at the bottom that states that "This document may be used for training purposes only" it still may be used against you in court....

AD8BC

Mary Marsala with Fries

When it says a call is recorded for training purposes, they're serious--you hear examples of good calls when you get trained, and bad calls. We don't keep the hundreds of thousands of calls daily to every call centre saved. There's just no way. We don't keep them to later use against you, either--but if the call was recorded (not all of them are) and you were threatening harm against the person you spoke to, then we may review that and take some kind of action. but we don't just keep a cache of all of your calls somewhere.

Ratty

Consult a lawyer before ever trying anything like this.

bonzombiekitty

whatwasithinking

Isn't the whole reason you'd want to record a call because you are sick of people trying to trick or cheat you?

I agree with the "tell them you are recording and move on" idea.

girly

b) Not all call center employees have "employee numbers," so if you try this and someone tells you they don't have an employee number, accept it - don't harrass them. Same thing if they won't give you their last name - most call centers won't allow their employees to give out last names for privacy reasons.

c) Direct line! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Ron Burkle is LYING if he says he's getting direct line phone numbers from call center staff.

d) Call center location you should be able to get, with no hassle.

dregina

stopNgoBeau

If that wasn't the case, then credit card interest rates would be a lot more varied (and reasonable). Credit card co's can get away with charging what are in effect usury rates in most states because they're incorporated out of Delaware, Nevada, and South Dakota, and the financial laws of those states take precedence over the laws in the state where the credit card owner lives.

LibidinousSlut

Imagine if every time somebody called my house, and automated voice said the conversation might be recorded. How would to give consent if the recording is recording you denying consent and asking me to turn off the recording device?

By the I've already broken the law, right?

So the companies that have this disclaimer are, technically speaking, breaking the law in states that require consent to record phone conversations, because the only way to express your desire directly to a human being not to be recorded is to be recorded asking that person not to record the conversation, right? (Whereupon, of course, the CSR person will say "sorry, sir, I have no control over that. If you don't want to be recorded, please hang up." To which my reply would be: "You're recording my conversation right now as I speak, as I am specifically requesting not to be recorded you are recording my conversation.")

So if were going to dwell on the intent of the law, it's not US breaking the law; it's THEM. This website is called Consumerist, not Corporatist.

olegna

SteveD1of1

The announcement "This call may be recorded..." doesn't always emphasize the word "may" in a manner that implies that the company/call center is the only party that has the right to record the call.

So, it's absolutely possible that a caller could interpret the "may" as the company/call center giving permission for the consumer to record the call as well.

Say it with me with that thought in mind: "This call may be recorded ..."

It's unassailable logic! The company can't deny that those particular words are used in its recording. As far as the interpretation/meaning of the words goes, well, it's all in the ears of the beholder.

Because this has been a very recent revelation, I've only tried this out twice, albeit unsuccessfully.

However, I escalated both calls up the food chain, and have been able to get each person to agree that my interpretation of implied permission is possible.

An attorney friend of mine says that armed with sufficient documentation of those calls, I might have a good case in court, should the need arise.

And, at the very least, I'm sending this documentation to the exceutive mucky-mucks, and as many government and media outlets as I can.

While I still may not be able to record calls with CSRs, I might be able to get them to spend time and money to change their systems. To me, it's worth the effort.

SteveD1of1

Not using this advice. Now, I'm not your lawyer, and I'm not giving you legal advice, but I (along with your common sense) can tell you that any consent obtained through tricks or fraud is invalid.

Fortunately, most people live in states where one-party consent is sufficient. It is important to know whether your state is a one-party state or not (mine, Florida, is a two-party state) because people do get prosecuted for this kind of thing every once in a while. It's usually a misdemeanor charge resulting in a small fine, but who needs that on their record?

Also, an illegally recorded conversation may, in some states, be inadmissible as evidence in a courtroom, so if that's your purpose, you're SOL.

Finally, if the call opens with a notice that the call "may be recorded for [training, quality control, intimidation, blackmail, or any other] purposes" then that party has consented to the call being recorded, period. Just make sure to get it in the recording if possible. (If not, write down the exact wording the best you can - maybe make a second call to get it exactly right.)

Good luck, prospective phone call recorders. By the way, it's usually easier to make a record in letter form. Judges love paper.

MikeWas

Since the CSR begins the call by iforming you the conversation may be recorded that means both parties know the phone conversation may be recorded, which fulfills all the requirements of the law, which therefore legally allows you to ALSO record the conversation.

Just because you decide to record the conversation AS WELL doesn't mean jack in the eyes of the law: both parties know the conversation is being recorded, PERIOD.
as much power as they want you to think they do.

So if some sleazebag corporate lawyer ever tried to crap on me with this hollow threats about not getting consent to record a CSR conversation, I would send them the recording of the disclaimer from the CSR-side informing both parties that the conversation might be recorded.

Nothing in the law says that once both parties know a phone conversation is being recorded, only ONE side is actually allowed to record it.

When the CSR inform you the phone conversation my be recorded, the only way you can not give consent to this is to hang up and not be given service. That's not asking for consent. That's giving you a choice to have your conversation recorded or hang up. But legally speaking this also gives you consent to record the conversation.

Don't listen to these creepy lawyer types hear trying to scare you:

When you consent to this CSR disclaimer, this legally allows you to ALSO record the conversation, P.E.R.I.O.D.

olegna

I am not a CSR and on the rare occurrence that someone does call and either wants the call to be recorded or on the record, I ask them to please state their concerns in written form. Legally that is often the best move...

Sure, but in a customer-service situation you can't pre-emptively send a letter expressing your concern that in a future conversation with a customer service rep, you may be abused, lied to, cheated, yelled at or otherwise screwed with...

Troy F.

From the website you posted: "For example, a reporter located in the District of Columbia who records a telephone conversation without the consent of a party located in Maryland would not violate District of Columbia law, but could be liable under Maryland law. A court located in the District of Columbia may apply Maryland law, depending on its "conflict of laws" rules. Therefore, an aggrieved party may choose to file suit in either jurisdiction, depending on which law is more favorable to the party s claim."

alk509

- First of all, just randomly saying the words "this call may be recorded for training purposes" is not enough to establish consent. Saying the phrase incomprehensibly fast, or in an extremely low whisper doesn't count either: the recording needs to show that the CSR is in a position to understand what s/he is consenting to.
- Second, even if tricking the CSR was acceptable, you're going to have a hell of a lot of trouble explaining to the judge what training purposes you were talking about...
- Third, you can't record ANY PART OF THE CONVERSATION until consent has been given, so the whole first part of the call, where you set up the scam by asking a bunch of questions to the CSR is off limits and can't be recorded.

I've been recording customer service calls for a few months now, always expicitly saying "I am recording this call, is that OK with you?" as soon as they pick up the phone, and I have yet to find a company that wouldn't consent. Granted, I'm not calling hundreds of call centers, and I'm sure there are a few out there who will hang up on you, but honesty seems to be the best policy. If they do hang up on you your best bet is probably to call back a few times until you get a CS who will let you record him/her.

alk509

[www.rcfp.org]

mattbrown

Permission thus granted.

Trojan69

You'd be suprised at the people who call in demanding to be sent a recording of their call.

I'm serious.

Lyrai

just_a_bum

It takes a real class act to be an ass that would stoop this low... IMO.

DanGarion

The common policy that an employee hang up if you notify them that you are recording is absurd. It's a tacit admission of guilt. They are basically saying "We know that our CSRs may be full of crap and we want don't want you to be able to prove it."

I am not a CSR and on the rare occurrence that someone does call and either wants the call to be recorded or on the record, I ask them to please state their concerns in written form. Legally that is often the best move...

All calls, emails, and mail are logged and archived however it is to keep me honest... I am not a traitor but still do not love that is the case...

zolielo

In Canada, as far as I have been told, you do have to obtain consent from the other party in order to record. Trickery or assuming the machine gave you permission probably won't hold up in court as permission. Some of the government lines actually require a verbal "yes" to be recorded (how do they get permission to record the yes/no answer?).

I'd personally like to see a law that says they can't refuse to do business if you don't want to be recorded... but that's another story.

If you are attempting to record evidence to be used in court, or if you suspect that they're attempting to do the same... then my suggestion is to consult with a police officer or a lawyer.

Anecdote: Let's just say I was sitting in a courtroom once and saw a very solid piece of evidence dismissed on the grounds that the collector of said evidence didn't have permission from the defendant or a warrant. The case was still won, but it cost someone hefty fines and the trial was extended CONSIDERABLY by the setback.

guardianfox

That is what my answering machine at home says. Doesn't stop telewhores from leaving messages.

StevieD

I'm a CSR for a high-end furniture company, and I have been recorded by customers in the past. I'm not thrilled about that fact, but I also have nothing to hide; I'll stand behind every word I've ever said to a customer. With that said, if you record me and I find out, you can bet I'll note it for the next CSR who talks to you, as well as my supervisors.

And while I can't speak for any other companies, the one I work for records EVERY call in every department. It keeps us honest, and it helps keep our customers honest (I see several fraudulent orders a day). But personally, I don't care, record me if you like.

Alcadema

Why oh why would anyone do any different.

Onouris

[www.callcorder.com] - More info. Federal stuff too.

Mocheeze

Here is the relevant WA state code:

Wash. Rev. Code § 9.73.030: All parties generally must consent to the interception or recording of any private communication, whether conducted by telephone, telegraph, radio or face-to-face, to comply with state law. The all-party consent requirement can be satisfied if "one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted." In addition, if the conversation is to be recorded, the requisite announcement must be recorded as well.

Now, if I am reading this right (cue lawyers stage left) it means that since the automated CSR will have "announced to all other parties" that the call is recorded.

Am I missing something here?

It is probably worthwhile to check your own state laws but if other laws are similar than maybe this is not such an issue for everyone.

brokejumper

Radio_Radio

....Because they wont let you continue the call if they know they are being recorded. Its often company policy not NOT consent to being recorded by a customer calling in. Its just another way to keep the customer at a disadvantage by a company

That's not always true, I worked for DirecTV and it's company policy to continue the conversation when they ask us if they can record the call. "We have nothing to hide in our procedures, just continue normally".

DirectAnon

MaxWells

but what if you record the call (not informing anyone) then make a typewritten transcription of that call - would be legal.. ? since you are really transcribing an actual event. If there is any dispute in the transcript you could subpoena the company's "training tapes"

baldingnerd

Rectilinear Propagation

[www.rcfp.org]

gibsonic

Seems to me that letting people record these calls would help keep people honest on both ends. No more CSR saying "I'll do this for you" and then denying it later. No more customer saying "The person I talked to before said they would do this for me."

Trying to scam permission like this is not likely to get you too far. It's also a little bit counter-Consumerist - Consumerist takes businesses to task for trying to sneak things past people. The standards should be the same wherever possible.

I have read elsewhere that for people in 2-party consent states, if you record the "This call may be monitored..." message, you may be in the clear since the message indicates their consent and your staying on the line indicates your own.

Troy F.

" The federal law makes it unlawful to record telephone conversations except in one party consent cases which permit one party consent recording by state law."

I take that to mean that if I tape a call (from Arizona, a 1 party consent state) between me and some company in Illinois (a 2 party consent state), then Federal law takes precedent, and I am in the clear.

Smoking Pope

Ickypoopy

In a 'court-of-law' case, you can probably just subpoena their recording; I would not consider using my recording for such purposes, but rather for raising press hell, something most corporations fear far more.

Nekoincardine

You: "Excuse me, what state are you calling from?"

Rep: "Illinois"

You: "Ok, in that case, I am not giving consent for you to tape this call, which you need to proceed any further. Please turn off the recording device, and when you're done you can tell me what you want."

I mean, if they're calling you, you'd think that they'd be forced to stop taping. I'd be curious to know what happens.

Smoking Pope

chrishad95

esqdork

1. if the call is recorded for training purposes, can it be used for any other purposes such as against the consumer in a judicial proceeding ?

2. if yes, conversely cannot the consumer use the same recording that the company made to their advantage in a judicial proceeding - by subpoena-ing that call recording from the company ?

3. those state/federal regulations that "dont allow unconsented recordings" - what are the extent of limits of use of such recordings ? Are they simply disallowed in a court of law or are they illegal for ANY use, period ? I mean, if disallowed in court of law, there is still the court of public, where they can be used - such as blogs, internet, consumerist.com - with potentially more devastating effects for the corporation. we have seen other recordings in the past such as "verizon math" appear on the internet which were probably unconsented.

4. how about journalistic protections to such unconsented recordings ? we do see consumer oriented tv shows and tv programs where the journalist uses footage of video recording or audio phone call recording in the program - which also seems highly unlikely to have been consented.

5. finally, i am not confident that the method shown here also is going to work. a judge, after hearing the recording, is likely to rule that the consumer's statement is indeed jestful, hence the recording was obtained in bad faith, and hence illegal/unallowable.

kuntaldaftary

thepounder

It's great to fight back against bad corporations, but don't stoop to their level (or below).

Indecision

([www.ripoffreport.com])

royco

Not sure if that would do it, but it seems like it would...

royco

BTW, if you use a Treo, might I recommend CallRec.

JRuiz47

dognose

olegna

Lyrai

joemono

ThyGuy

Imaginary_Friend

But if you really want something done and you want a record of it, write a letter. You can say so much more in a letter. Also, if you are truly paranoid (and want some serious attention paid to your concerns) send it certified, return receipt requested.

For all the people who think they are fine because their state's law allows recording of calls with single-party consent, that flies out the window as soon as your call crosses state lines. In fact, the telephone is an "instrument of interstate commerce," so it might not even matter whether your call crosses state lines. Federal law is supreme where interstate commerce is concerned, and I am pretty sure that federal law requires consent of both parties (but I might be wrong).

keeblerelf

enm4r

So just call the centers while on your Vegas vacation.

Sushiwriter

Rectilinear Propagation

"Can I do this?"

"Yes, you may."

Buran

timmus

Most wiretapping statutes have language to the effect that both parties "must be aware of the recording and consent".

With this technique, I am not sure that the other party either: 1. actually knows you're recording; and 2. consents to the recording.

To the person who asked "Why don't you just tell them you're recording?", the answer is simple, with this technique they really DON'T know you're recording, they think you're telling a joke.

Crazytree

We can't really be sure of location, or even if the location is US based. Always safest to have both parties consent, but in reality, how would that play out with interstate regulations guiding the matter?

enm4r

I just suspect that something like this wouldn't hold up if you're just using it as a ploy. If yuo want to trick them or say it fast before they really are mentally prepared then do so, but lying to them seems a sure way to invalidate the recording.

enm4r

I mean, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Wormfather

eternaluxe

Cowboys_fan

schwnj

Because nearly all CSRs have very strict instructions to immediately terminate the call if the caller indicates their are recording. It is one more way to make sure the business holds all the cards.

jak312

"why not say that you are recoding the call?"

....Because they wont let you continue the call if they know they are being recorded. Its often company policy not NOT consent to being recorded by a customer calling in. Its just another way to keep the customer at a disadvantage by a company.

nctrnlboy

As for their assumption that if I placed the call I must be listening, all I have to say is "call center auto-dialers."

jak312

bambino

Besides on-the-cheap software to do such things, I recently bought a nice & very tiny digital recorder from Amazon (Olympus WS-300M 256 MB Digital Voice Recorder), as well as one of those in-ear mics that's used for recording phone conversations. I mostly bought mine for use in recording song ideas and lyrics that come to me while I'm driving or whatever, but it'd be super handy for use on CSR's when needed.

thepounder

Ohm2k

2) Why not just say you're recording the call? Are you really recording this for training? Why make it up, just say you're recording it and move on.

I am also curious, is there any way that a company could restrict whether or not these lowly client facing employees are authorized to give consent to call recording?

enm4r

Uh, I'm not so sure about that. If I lived in a jurisdiction that frowned on recording calls without two-party consent (which I don't) I wouldn't like to have to explain to the judge why my actions weren't intended to trick or deceive the other party into giving consent (which, in most places, means the consent isn't valid).

Beerad

MaxPayne3476