LeeErinyes

blah,blah,blah

This comment you wrote about arranging financing before you arrive is also stupid, what if the dealership can offer a better rate, should the consumer pay more for their car each month???? How about paying cash??? Is that smart? NO! when you pay cash for a car, you are dumping your positive cash flow into a depreciating asset, you are throwing your money out the window. What if you totaled your car? what if it got stolen? HOW MUCH money do you think the insurance company is going to give you????
Here is another reason why.......unless you have no existing debt, like a home, credit cards and you are as wealthy as Warren Buffett, you should drop your cash into your home firstly, because the cash applied to principal will SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE YOUR INTEREST THAT YOU WOULD BE PAYING ON YOUR HOME. The interest you pay on a car is nominal compared to the interset you pay on your home. Check this out on BANKRATE.com....typically depending on the type of loan you have with your mortgage, using myself as an example, dropping 30k into my home will save me over 120k over the course of my 30 year fixed loan.
It really takes some common sense to figure these things out, but uneducated consumers who only look to "get over" on the dealers because the dealers are all just"scumbags",and are just trying to screw everyone who walks through the door, end up screwing themselves over.
The guy who initiated this post is obviously not very seasoned in the car business, and must be some disgruntled employee that got fired for not showing up on time or something stupid, because he did not sell any cars, probably could'nt even close an open face sandwich, who thinks by posting this is helping out the consumer, when it is like the blind leading the blind!
"A poor mind is worse than an empty bank account".

allison3331

Any feedback from anyone in the know?

joenintiesc

dead-money

Call your local tag/lisence office and find out how they figure the money.

I bought a car just 3 months ago for $16000, paid $450 in taxes, $0 for my tag (Disabled Vet), and $60 for my annual tags. This was in AL, too.

I had to wrangle with them to get the formula they use to figure it, though, for the taxes.

RStewie

The first time, I was just 17, and my uncle, (an ex used-car salesman) went with me. He turned the "confusing overwriting" on it's head... he took out a marker and wrote over everyone else's notes what we would accept. It worked.

Years later, when presented with a four-square, I remembered this. By a twist of fate, I had a blue Sharpie in my pocket. I overmarked the foursquare with what I would accept... and it worked.

I still got taken, a bit. The car, which had a fabulous body and interior, had a blown head gasket, but the dealership had the wisdom to replace the oil and top off the water frequently, causing that to be overlooked by my mechanic.

Even with the replacement engine I bought, I drove the car for over a year, then sold it for a (tiny) net profit.

The man who bought it from me tried another used-car buying trick. He kept spreading larger and larger sums of cash in front of me (mostly in 20-dollar bills) I'd seen this trick before, and even used it. (I worked for a time in the Southeast in real estate developement. The same trick is used there. Grown men will melt and sell their souls for a briefcase full of 20-dollar bills, even when what they are getting is half of their asking price.) I just kept pointing at my "firm" price soaped on the windshield, and told him I'd seen much more cash than that before. He caved and payed my firm price.

dreamingmage

I've been very fortunate in that I have a great repeat customer base, which I might add, I take care of them after the purchase. I pick their cars up for service work, if they need to leave their car in service I arrange to get them a loaner vehicle at no cost to my customer. I've even loaned customers special vehicles (like a 15 passenger van) for school or church trips. The list goes on and on (Service after the sale)

On the other hand, I've waited on many many customers who will make the most unscrupulous car salesman look like an alter boy. Most of the unknown customers I wait on are all the same. They want the dealership to give them top retail money for their trade and want the dealership to sell their car at a wholesale price.

NADA & Bluebook are only a guide in a perfect world as to used car values. This does not mean the dealer was able to trade for this amount. Many times they have to put more into a trade than ACV, then there could be service charges added because of undisclosed or undiscovered problems with the car after the trade.

So the beat goes on. The buyer doesn't want the dealership to make any money and the dealership needs to make a profit to stay in business. I don't quite understand why car buyers don't think the salesman or dealership should make a profit.

A day in the life of a car salesman is no easy task. Try spending 12 hours a day tromping the concrete, moving cars around in the heat and cold, dealing with 9 out of 10 people that couldn't buy a can of beans on credit and then the one that can buy beats you down to making nothing on the sale. Now this person may have gotten a pretty good deal but you can bet the salesman isn't gonna bend over backwards to help the person who all but called you a crook from the get go and thought you don't deserve to be compensated for all the time spent selling them a car at cost.

Look, car salesman know all about the old, "No, I don't have a trade trick" "Just give me your bottom line on a straight sale" and then they want you to appraise their trade in. Cut the crap, if you got a trade, just say so! Tell the salesman you have a trade and to work the prices in "Real Money". Now who's trying to beat who? Car salesman have to be on the defense because, shhhhh, customers sometimes will tell you a lie.

All my repeat customers know I have to make money, they know I am going to give them a good deal, generally I will make $500 - $1000 gross profit on a vehicle, of which I get 25% and they have no problem with this. The benefits of "Service after the sale" are tremendous compared to "No service after the sale" for those who think the car salesman is a crook and doesn't deserve to support his family.

And that's all I got to say for now.

burtf51

gopack16

i eventually settled on a VW, the only dealer in the state on the costco program was 200 miles away from me. their financing partnership with capitol one was ... *insulting* at best. almost double the incentivized rate for the same term.

ultimately, the internet sales option via email and going through the TMV price links on edmunds worked for us. They beat the TMV, and got pretty close to invoice. $550 over. Not bad, not great.

the finance guy was a piece of work; however. tried to take 1% extra on the note, hardball on their 'armor' and insurance.

RocketScientist

Want to save a couple of bucks? Refuse to pay the Doc Fee and glass etch fee. Doc fees($149 - $299)are treated as pure profit to the dealers bottom line. They are pre-printed on the orders to create the illusion they are mandatory.
Glass etching is typically applied to all vehicles on the lot and they will tell you they do this for insurance purposes and will be charging you $149 to transfer the policy to your name. Fact: glass etch costs from $0 - $5 per car for the labels placed on the car. The "etch registration" actually costs about $25 to the dealer but only once the customer signs and accepts it. Refuse to pay these fees or get up and start to walk out. Watch how fast the manager will try to negotiate them or remove them completely.
I know of a dealer that uses a special buyers order for their "Used" vehicles that has over $900 in dealer fees pre-printed on it. Dealers collect more than 90% of the fees they try to charge customers for.

My2cents

You are playing the part of someone who is a great mark. Don't let on that you know what deal you want, only that you were happy, but now are confused, and think the deal just doesn't seem right. Say I don't know, or nothing, a lot. Say little else unless it's in the form of a question.

When the deal gets going, start dragging your feet, but keep the salesman with you answering questions, going over numbers, explaining everything again. Plan to be there for hours. You can easily save over a hundred an hour doing this.

The whole time he is with you, he is not selling cars. He will likely start to get frustrated, and his boss will be furious. They are likely to rudely get rid of you. Great, use that against them when you complain to the manufacturer and tell him about the deal they wanted. Then tell him you found out on the internet since leaving that the dealer is a scumbag, and was trying to make several thousand dollars on the deal. You now (this is part of the act )know what a fair price should be (About $500 less than you would actually do the deal for). Ask why they keep a dealer around who treats people like they treated you.

Sometimes, the original dealer will wise up before getting rid of you and offer you a deal you want (assuming its a fair deal), but if he acts rudely, then you get the manufacturer involved. They will likely help you get the deal with the original dealer, or a different one.

Enjoy.

Landcrusher

If you can get over the 'stigma' of a used car there can be a lot of great deals out there. Also line up your cash BEFORE you go shopping for a car. Often you can get a great rate on a line of credit if you are in good standing with your financial instituion. The reason for doing this is there usually isn't any dealer incentives or fantastic interest rates for used vehicles.

Consider lease-backs or former fleet/rental cars. If you deal with a reputable dealer they will be mechanically fit, clean, detailed and most of the time smoke-free. I chose to buy a N.American mid-size car, not just out of patriotism but because you can get some really great deals on domestic vehicles if you look around as well as a WIDE SELECTION. I live in Canada ( up where the water freezes faster ) but this is similar all over. I have used this method a couple of times, most recently January of 2005 on a 2004 model that I had picked out. It was a cold Saturday and not a lot of customers and I had already been to a couple dealers already, read consumer reports and had an idea of the prices. The Ford dealer I chose had just gotten in three dozen assorted 2004 Taurus (sedans, wagons)and was slated to get in several more and the longer the cars sit there the more it costs them. They had them sorted into 3 or 4 price categories depending upon the mileage. The options supplied are certainly above base models and that usually includes power windows/driver seat/locks/AC/pedals/puddle lamps/leather steering/alloy wheels and other nice items. And you don't have to negotiate for B.S. items such as the floor mats.

After a test drive I picked out 3 units with colors I liked. I had my eye on one sedan in category 1 (lowest kilometers)but concentrated the dealing on the two category 2 cars, got it down to a very nice lower price with a couple of the 'back-and-forth' trips to the manager, discussed financing, down payment and monthly payments through the dealer,etc. and then give the old 'Ah, let me think about it, thanks for your time' routine and got up out of my chair. The sales guy didn't want to lose a potential sale and came back with the 'What can we do to make you sign?'. I came back with 'Well, tell you what, let me have that category 1 car for the price we just negotiated on the category 2 car and we've got a deal.

There was some humming'n'hawing and a trip to the manager but in the end they gave me the cat. 1 car for the cat. 2 negotiated price. They then proceeded to set out the monthly payment plan. I set out my cheque book and paid for it right there.

Yep, they were a bit taken back but what could they do?

In the end I picked up that one year old car that had only 8500km (5300 miles) on it with the balance of warranty for just over half of the new price.

Having owned both domestic and Pacific rim cars I can honestly say you get a bigger bang for your buck on a domestic vehicle. Dealers of foreign cars are not as apt to cut you any real deals on their products - and their cars have problems too. The money you will save in purchasing a recently used vehicle will more than put a grin on your face.

mihy

farmboy

Tallman

Here is how you turn the tables on car dealers.

First....get your own financing before stepping foot on a car lot. Iknow I know everyone says this. here is the catch DO NOT TELL THE DEALERSHIP YOU HAVE FINANCING.

If you have cash DO NOT TELL THE DEALER THIS EITHER

Even if you have bad credit you can get financing before you step foot on to a lot.

Second.....Pick the car you want that fits into your budget based on sticker price.

Third...research bealer incentives...dealer cost....destination...do not be stupid and pick you car based on what you think the dealer pays...and having this number fit your budget...you will only frustrate your self and spoil your new car experience.

Fourth..... go on the lot and be stupid...find the car you want ...... do not let on that you know anything about the car much less car buying.....EXCEPT price..... mention price.... mention price alot.... do not say a word about payments or interest........you DO NOT CARE ABOUT payments or interest (bear with me here) after you pick your car and have peppered the coversation with price sensitive terminology....think about mentioning that you hope you can get financed.......you are not sure what your credit is and hope it doesnt cause problems cause you really like the car and hope they can finance you...... YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR CREDIT SCORE IS

NOW... haggle price price price...... four square closing is the most common... if you get this method focus on price... ignore payments and interest rates.....

Dealers will actually cut deals to below cost if they think they can make it up on some exorbitant interest rate....you can tap into kickback reserve advertising as well as destination fees if you play this well enough. Take the extended warranty... maximum and zero deductible....... mention this early on also... that you will be taking the extended warranty......

Now leave the dealership with all pertinant paperwork ....... and have your credit union or other previously arranged financing institution ...or if you are paying cash.... pay off the car.

WHY YOU ASK.... because the bulk of money in a dealership is made on the back end... by service contracts and financing kickbacks..... financing institution offer dealers "BUY rates" for specific customers and delares kick this up to make more money...... the financing comapny and the warranty company come to the dealership and emand money back when you pay off the car with cash or your other fonanacing...... they knocked the deal down to bare minimum and sometimes loss to make what they think is more money on the back end.... and you walk away with a sweet deal.......

ahjkgmd

twink99

qxe

surrogate

Tankueray

1) I refused to sign the "I agree to walk out with the car if we can agree on a price" line. It's pretty simple, I just said, "I won't sign anything until we work out the details." Well, I signed it AFTER we agreed on the price, but by then the car was sold.

2) We didn't talk about financing until after I agreed on a price.

3) After test driving the car and getting a ridiculously high price ("minus factory to dealer incentives!"), I went home and looked up the Edmunds and KBB values, subtracted the FtDI and $500 for my troubles.

4) When I took that number to the sales guy, he "took it to his general manager", who said, "I couldn't possibly sell it for less than my price + $250." Whatever.

5) I still got screwed on the financing, since by the time I was in front of the loan officer, I'd been in the dealership for 5 hours! Get a loan before you step foot in the dealership, because that's where I really got screwed.

muddgirl

The salesman said maybe they could do something better left and came back. Then I told him that if I just signed a deal without calling my old man that he'd never let me live it down.

I kept that cycle up until I paid invoice for my car. I encourage other young car buyers to use bizarre negotiation tactics.

Canadian Impostor

konicaman

mikull

@Ayrton Senna:
If they can get to the payment I want, I don't care if they're robbing me blind on the rate; good for them.

Wow. And I thought the image of a customer walking in with "sucker" written on his forehead was just a metaphor.

Tonguetied

Tonguetied

I know in Illinois they can't charge any more than $59 for a doc fee. I guess some states have a limit and some do not.

Salesman4U

Tax - 1128.78
dept. of motor vehicle fees - 234.20
Doc fees - 289.00

I searched the DMV site but couldn't find any regulatory limits on these so I am afraid I might be getting ripped off here. I'd appreciate any help on this matter.

sk07041

the real answer i see with many of your dealers is: it depends.

i'm biased of course, but i happen to know a dealer really well- my dad. quick note: Not all the dealers are scumbags. My dad went to a trade school for printing, worked on a printing press for decades, and finally got laid off without any help from his union. close to retirement, he took the best area job he was skilled to do, which freaked me out the first time i heard it~ car salesman!

i've been a bit wise to the info in this article even before my inside connection, thanks to one devious uncle- and i've really seen a lot of scumbags myself, rest assured. one thing that seems true all around, however, is how much of a scumbag the boss of the dealership is.

these are the guys nailing the salesman to the wall. my dad, after being at the dealership for only a couple of years, became one of the guys who had worked there the longest. the pressure applied to salesman can be unreal- and i only saw one or two people in all those comments say it, but these people are working for a living too.

i'm not saying you shouldn't use all the great advice here, but feel out your guy. my dad will start with the numbers he's been told, and go from there. he, like many, get a flat fee per car sold regardless as to how much you spend. he secretly wants you to take the owner for a ride, because he hates being there as much as you- but he has a job to do.

I asked him why, after all these years, hasn't the general public gotten wise to all this? He told me: son, sadly, there's a sucker born every minute. He said he doesn't even have to try that hard to find them even now. He pointed out, however, that for him it's still about volume. 5 news cars at great deals for the buyer means $5000 for him. 1 car where he rips off the guy is still only $1000. There's a balance, he explained, between getting the numbers for himself and getting the numbers for the boss.

I asked if he felt bad about some of the deals people got ripped on- and he said no, flat out. He's got healthcare and bills to pay, and although he's saved he's still nervous about tomorrow. He's a blue collar guy, a veteran, and still my hero. Like I said, there's some real scumbags on the showroom floor- but in some places, there's guys like my Dad. Feel them out, make your best deals- but try not to take it too personal. Calm, cool and collected is the best way to haggle with anyway.

mikull

@Eyebrows McGee: I am curious as to what selling Hummers or automobiles has to do with religious beliefs. Are you suggesting that I can't be a Christian and sell cars, or did I misread something in your statement?

For the record, I am a Christian. And I am not just a Sunday morning church goer.

@barrymyjohnson: Thank you for commenting on the consumer lying more often than the salesperson. This couldn't be a truer statement: BUYERS ARE LIARS.

Also, the above mentioned buying from someone you like and trust. I have no idea why some people don't do this. "I sure like you, but Joe Blow told me over the phone he will save me $50. I have never met him, coudn't pick him out if he were alone in a restaraunt, but I must save that money. Thanks for your help."

Good times. Live, Love, Laugh, and buy Honda

Salesman4U

trade in: $500 on beat-up corolla (ok, i understand that)
price: $14,600 after rebate (seems fair - don't really know what they sell for)
down payment: $1,500
THIS IS WHERE I START STEAMING:
monthly payment: $320

now according to the car salesman, that's $320/mo. for 5 years (or $380/mo. for 4 years, or $470/mo. for 3 years) @ 7.0%. hmm...something doesn't compute. anybody else see a problem here?

mac-phisto

CFR

drewstyle

I bought a car once. I was taken advantage of. I realize that, and the salesperson did a good job taking care of me. When I got into the business, I was mad at him for a while, but he was just doing his job, as I do mine and make my money when I can.

Usually those of you who like to take 3 days of my time up just to shop my price around, threaten to buy it elsewhere after I have spent my time selling you on the vehicle, and then come back wanting the car for less than I paid for it, I make $100. That's it, that is all. $100 kids. I have had people act like I should be oh so thankful that they are paying my rent for the next month because they are buying a car from me for under invoice. NewsFlash, after taxes you are paying for a tank of gas.

Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for all of my sales. I am very good at my customer relations, and I take care of my customers long after the purchase of their vehicle. And they always come back to me.

Another salesperson at my dealership has had a guy who has bought 3 cars from her. He calls every other dealership, gets a price, then calls her. I really don't mind this, I have had a lady do the same thing, and she always buys the car from me. But this guy told his salesperson that he figured she has made several thousands of dollars from his purchases, doesn't that make her happy? She pulled at her commission slips from his two previous sales and showed him that in total, including this third vehicle, she will have made $300. Not to mention this guy is a bit of a jerk and demanding.

Again, I am thankful for my customers. I treat the ones that I make $100 from the same as the ones that I make $500 from. But I pay my bills after working very hard, not from "screwing" the likes of you all. I realize that the automobile world has opened itself up to be a negotiating process, that is fine, but dealers have to start out high so that they can make SOME $ on SOME people.

However, I must say, I had some foreigners that I am very thankful for. Those who come from India love negotiating. They will negotiate for 3 days until they finally realize you can't do the price they want. I had some very nice customers from India who had purchased 4 cars previously from my dealership. They wanted a 2006 van. We had one left. Management was offering $1000 commission on these vehicles. I didn't car what they dealership lost, I made $!000 off of someone who normally I would make $100 from. I was happy.

I would be interested to hear some thoughts from everyone reading these posts as to what you think these scummy salespeople are making off of you.

Salesman4U

Your methodology sounds suspiciously similar to my own, except I usually can't be bothered to actually drive to the dealership until I have an acceptable, binding offer in hand via fax. :-)

When buying a new car last month, I'd done my homework ahead of time and determined exactly what I was willing to pay out-the-door. It took a bit of time to find a dealer willing to work with that price, but I ended up paying substantially under the invoice listed on Edmund's and got a couple hundred dollars' worth of free options owing to the fact that the dealer had to do a swap to get the car in the color I wanted, and the swap had some more goodies that I wasn't willing to pay for but was quite willing to accept at no cost. The only bump in the road was a bit of discussion I had with the dealer when they wanted to charge an additional $100 for tag/title fees. They backed down without incident when I pointed out the places in state law where the amounts of those fees are clearly defined, and told them I'd already accounted for tax/tag/title in my offer and that it wasn't negotiable.

I'd already had my financing worked out with my credit union ahead of time, so of course that was a *big* help. Something that people should know is that your bank or credit union will likely give you a simple-interest loan for a car, whereas a dealer will usually do a pre-computed loan. The difference is that paying off the simple-interest loan will reduce the amount of interest you pay, whereas the pre-computed loan will almost always put commit you to the full principal+interest, regardless of how quickly you pay it off. Furthermore, there's a neat little trick called the "Rule of 78s" that allows the dealer to hose you even if you have a pre-computed loan that you *can* pay off early. If you are able to make early payments, there's usually money to be saved by going with a simple-interest deal, but you should really look at each loan on its own merits - sometimes the dealer financing *is* a better deal, particularly if you can't make early payments and the manufacturer is subsidizing a ridiculously low interest rate.

Incidentally, we drove my wife's old beater to the dealer to pick up the new car, and as I didn't want to continue paying the extra insurance on it, I was curious to see if the dealer would be interested in an outright purchase. As it turns out, one of the salesman personally bought the car for about $200 more than I was reasonably expecting to get for it at a private sale. :-D

CGremlin

If you don't sell your car to the dealer, and don't finance through the dealer, you don't need to bother with those things at the dealership. Also, "extras" are usually not a big deal, and you're not likely to be able to do anything but get screwed on them at a dealer.

So yeah, only negotiate the price.

And make it clear that you are only talking OUT THE DOOR PRICE...INCLUDING ALL FEES. A lot of them, even if you tell them this a dozen times, will still try to stick "document fees" on top. They'll claim they're mandated by the state, and that they are for paying overhead and stuff...well, registration and title transfer is mandated, of course. But the state isn't mandating 400 dollar "document fees."

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I hate dealers in AZ.

TechnoDestructo

bingo61

barrymyjohnson

The minute the "paperwork" starts getting sloppy I refuse to play. And not because they're trying to scam me, but because I don't deal with people who are that sloppy.

Take a yellow legal pad and take your own notes. Yellow legal pads scare people.

When dealing with a particularly sleazy or sexist dealer, I have on occasions asked them outright about the sexism, gone off about how the negotiated method of car buying is entirely outdated, or started an ethical discussion about how they can justify selling Hummers (or whatever) while being a (salesperson's religion). It doesn't do a lot for the price but it makes ME feel better and it derails their entire pitch.

I always read the contract carefully but it's funnier to bring my husband who reads at the speed of slow and goes over every clause with a fine-toothed comb while sitting right there. When they start getting visibly nervous, I say, "Oh, he's a litigator. He's like that. They have to read so carefully for court." That's when the sweat appears.

Next car I'm going internet/fax all the way if I can. Amusing as it is to bait sleazy salespeople (and I'm happy to say I've dealt with ones who weren't at all sleazy), it's time-consuming.

Eyebrows McGee

karmaghost

After you get your quotes, send a second round of emails playing the dealers off each other, and once you figure out your financing, you can complete the purchase without ever going in the dealership doors.

The most time-consuming step is setting up an anonymous Gmail account, which takes, what, 10 minutes?

spinachdip

tanyetta

While looking at the car, I phoned my credit union with the Vin number and was relayed value and history. Many credit unions provide this service for their customers.

The salesman came out to us and while talking we got into negotiating mode. He put a stop to it pretty quick. "We don't fool around with that here," he said " we only advertise on the internet and we put our bottom price on the cars we have."

I knew the price was exceptional from the internet and credit union research and the salesman was very clear about there policy. I noticed from his name tag that he was related to the owner of the new car dealership and was working the used car side with others.

A number of dealerships have converted to the no-haggle style since the advent of the consumer education via internet and consumer reports. If you can find one of these dealers and don't like the negotiation process do yourself a favor and find a "true" no haggle dealership, be armed with model information, maybe write down or phone in the VIN to a service that can give you price and history. You should be rewarded with a good deal.

rleaf

Yes, I know that next to my home, my car is my biggest expense and investments of this size take time and without doing the time, I'm inviting myself to be screwed, yadda, yadda.

But life is a tradeoff of time and money. I don't want to pay thousands more than I should... but I don't want to spend 3 days visiting dealerships and haggling instead spending time with my family.

Any suggestions for the best compromise approaches between obsessive negotiation and blind naivete?

mwexler

I hate new car dealers new car dealerships and the scams they get away with.

buy a 2 or 3 year old car at the very least and let some other poor sucker pay that horrible depreciation for you.

My favorite purchase is off lease cars with 3 years and 36k miles on them. I drive them until the wheels fall off and then do it again. I am never upside down either. I pay cash for these cars and buy them from private sellers and cash talks. No farking 900 dollar dealer fees and doc prep bullshit!

Car dealers can die for all I care.

holysmoke

Thanks a lot for keeping me up until 6am. I was about to head to bed around 4, and then you go ahead and link me to a really long and interesting article at Edmunds and I spend 2 hours reading it straight through.

I'm in absolutely no position to buy a vehicle right now, and I found it quite interesting! I think anyone really serious about not getting screwed should read the article:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/articl...

You will come out really knowing in-depth what they're up to, and what you should be up to. Plus it's fun to read about how stereotypical the white-shirt-gold-watch-gold-tie... wearing, high-fiving, back patting, fist bumping salesmen really were.

Schmeg Peg

1) get a test drive and be up front that I'm going to shop the net but offer them the chance to match any price I get (in the end they were not even close)

2) email every dealer within 300 miles (a lot in the bay area)- within 24 hours I was down to dealer invoice and by the end of the week I got down to $5000 below invoice.

3) arrange a time to go in and pay for and pick up the car.

4) see old car on craigs list

I could have saved another $500 by going to the LA area (Volvo of Santa Monica was offering to beat the price by that much) but I didn't want to take the time. I was very pleased with the deal and the service I got from the dealer (in Fremont CA about 45 miles from home)

jpp123

The movie is also hilarious, right up there with Glengarry Glen Ross.

EricAugu

I went to the dealer and they did the 4-square. We also had on hand a calculator that did TVM. He came up with a payment, term in months, and value of the car. I punched in some numbers and found he was really trying to rook me over on the deal - 15% interest? On 50% down? That's all they can do? Well, we got the car for a VERY good price but really crappy financing terms. I did my homework and kept focused on the out-the-door price and the price we got was about $1500 below the best deal I could come up with doing internet research.

We signed for the car and went to our credit union which promptly refinanced us at 6% and cut a check right there for TMCC (Toyota Motor Credit Co).

So in essence the dealer was willing to take a loss on the vehicle to screw us on the interest rate.

A month or so later we got an offer from TMCC to buy back the car - a 100% refund. We declined.

rworne

but some tricks and tips I'm gonna do next time I buy a car.

1. fax around or anonymous email for quotes.
2. compare them off each other and also as someone said have at least 2 solid offers with the detail
3. goto the best one with quotes and before start talking put down a stopwatch. "i gotta be somewhere in 1 hr"
4. if they pull crap out.. "sorry you just cut into your hour" or call up the other dealers
5. financing, trade in are all separate. rinse and repeat

scorched03

LuvJones

hn333

I got e-mail quotes from about 6 dealerships, played them off against each other, went to the lowest dealer with cash in hand, and walked away with a new Honda Fit for less than used ones have been selling on eBay lately (it's apparently quite in demand).

I was dealing with "internet sales managers" who (I've heard) don't work on commission, and didn't feel taken advantage of for a second. No sleazy changes in price, no last minute add-ons, no hard sell.

souhaite

I had the exact same experience from TWO different Subaru dealerships (Redwood City, CA and Livermore, CA). The Redwood City guy handed me the keys, and right before he turned and walked away he said, "Try not to roll it."

The Livermore dealer said, "I'd come along with you, but I'd probably just get in the way."

I ended up buying a 2000 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport from the Redwood City dealership and only paying 2.5% above list (I think it was "list". Can't remember what the term is.)

The salesman and I sat down, and he just presented the price. No hassle. No pressure. No "four-square." I'd done my homework so I knew that the price was fair for everyone.

Seven years later I still love my Subaru, and it still rocks heavy.

I really hope Subaru comes out with a diesel (and really, really hope it's a plug-in diesel-hybrid), because I want to convert to burning vegetable waste oil, but don't want to stop driving a Subaru.

robertc1964

The dealer has tools in their pocket, asking you questions about things in this order, what vehicle, what kind of trade in, then "payments", then the vehicle price, then surprise you at the end with dealer fees. I work these in reverse, the question they casually ask while wandering around the lot WILL be used against you. Tell them right away you will not discus trades, financing, money factors, or anything else. Take control, you have what they want ($$), not the other way around. Don't fear, another slimey dealer is just a few miles away with the same sheet metal, a vehicle in the same color.....

1. Pick a vehicle you would buy, write the VIN on the contracts and tell the dealer to write on the back of sales contract (the true legal purchase form you will be signing) every fee EXCEPT the vehicle cost as a line item with the words "dealer determined fee" or "exact fee required by law". Suddenly paperwork fees go from 35 bucks to the 6 bucks required by law. Prep fees vanish, delivery fees get whacked in half and the mysterious few hundred in fees get scraped down to nothing. I took the liberty of crossing out and replacing the values on the front of the contract with the "updated values". Sure they told me I wasn't allowed to do that, my response, "I just did, you agreed to them on the same piece of paper (on the back)"

2. I bring out my adding machine and use for ALL math going forward (laugh all you want) and added up the fees and wrote the total fees on the back of the form. Now mystery fees can't crop up later on and I have a single "extra" cost to deal with, say $210.34. When asked about the adding machine I said "it guarantees your accuracy and it's paper tape can't forget what was agreed to"

3. I take dealer invoice, less rebates, less holdback (figure 3% of sticker) = price of vehicle x 1.06 (if 6%tax). Take taxed price + agreed to fees + 100 profit = "price I will pay right now" (keep in mind, extras fees have already been accounted for). Ask the salesperson to agree to the price, hinting I will buy and I have the check to do it with and this will be the quickest 15 min sale they ever did. I set my checkbook on the counter and told them this was unequivocally a "yes or no response, no negotiations whatsoever". I told the salesman that I'm the one buying and make it very clear to the salesmanager I'm the bulldog and will not negotiate beyond a yes/no response. I got a yes.

4. Now that they agreed, I asked them out of curiosity what trade might be worth. They realize I'm committed to the sale, but a bad trade in price at this point, could ruin my mood. Sure I may not get absolute top dollar (like a private sale) but my objective is to get rid of it at a fair price. If you like the trade in value, this comes right off the bottom line price agreed to earlier (or before tax depending on state laws).

The price before any trade in I negotiated was almost 30% below sticker, and I agreed that sure they weren't making the most on me, but another tick on the sales quota and a 15 min sales sure were nice for all involved.

A rookie salesman nearby said "you sure busted his balls", I got my car for less than what salespeople could buy them for. A blank check whipped out at just the right moment makes that "yes or no, no negotiations" answer their choice to make a big sale in 10 mins, or have it walk out the door and you can't be caught offguard with any mysterious fees after you think you've snagged a great deal. The powers they had were taken away (trade/payments/extra fees) and I dictated their next decision.

rten

Patrick

tiga31328

Here a few hints I've learned over the years.

1) As everyone has been saying, do your homework. The internet is great. Get the cost of all the options you want. Many sites have both the actual dealer cost of factory installed options and the MSRP. Also find out if there are any rebates, dealer money, rebates, hold backs etc. You want to determine what the dealer's actual cost is for the car and mark it up by about 3%. Hey, they do have to make some money and, and the dealer costs posted on the Internet are usually high anyway. A good place to look is at the web forums, sometimes you'll find an employee from a dealership will post the real dealer price sheets.

2) Get your financing pre-approved from your bank or credit union. Know the interest rate, APR and terms of the loan. Also, learn how to calculate the monthly payments given the terms of the loan. Get a business calculator and take it with you when you go to the dealership.

3) When you walk up to the salesman, tell them that you don't have a trade-in and this will be a cash deal. Your pre-approved remember, when you close the deal, they will write the invoice up such that if you don't bring in your check from the credit union within a week to 10-days then you'll automatically get a dealer financed loan.
Negotiate the bottom line price of the car, including taxes and license. At this point you have two goals; 1) Get your car at your price, and 2) Tie up the salesman as long as possible. He either makes a deal with you, or you walk out of the dealership at closing. You just ruined his sales for that day.

4) If you think that the salesman and the sales manager are scum, wait until you meet the finance guy. His job is to undo everything you just negotiated. I bought a car and was "promised" free floor mats, but when the finance guy wrote up the invoice, the sales price of the car was $200 more. When I pointed it out, he corrected it and said it was a typo. This is where you need to be careful and that calculator comes in handy. The finance guy is going to try to sell you the dealer's financing. There are only two variables that you can negotiate here, the interest rate and the length of the contract. When you pull out your calculator and ask him what rate can he give you and how does it compound and he sees that you can crunch the numbers he won't BS you. Hey, you might even get lucky and get a better deal than your bank or credit union. Its never happened to me though.

5) The other thing that the finance guy will do is try to sell you dealer installed extras, just say no! You want to change the wheels, or by an after-market stereo, shop for them on the Internet. Also, don't by the extended warranty, the tire warranty or any other warranty that they are selling. A trick I learned is to tell them that your credit union will not allow you to finance the cost of the warranty or any dealer installed extras. In my case its true, my credit union wants you to buy their 3rd party crappy extended warranty. If you really want the factory extended warranty tell him that you have to do a cash deal for it on the side. I've done this and got a hefty discount.

tmba2002

Second, if you live in the Washington DC area, don't buy any car until you at least talk to one of the Fitzgerald dealerships. Both my dad and I have bought cars from them - they are a one-price dealer with absolutely no hassle at all. You don't want to trade your car? Fine. You want to pay cash? Fine. You don't want the extended warranty? Fine.

By the way, "fees" = "profit". Do you really think it costs the dealer $299 to type up your documents?

demarman

When looking at cars I was handed a magnetic license plate from a salesman and he said to just test drive any car I wanted, they all had the keys in them. I was amazed, I didn't have to even show them my license. This allowed me to try out lots of cars without having the back and forth with the salesman every time.

When I test-drove the car that I ended up purchasing from them, they didn't take a deposit to hold it, they just took my name and held it for me. It took me over a week to get it financed from my local credit union and they weren't even the slightest bit annoyed. They even offered me a free drink when I was buying the car, I wasn't thirsty, but they said I should at least take one for the road.

My wife was looking to trade-in her high-mileage Jeep when gas prices first spiked a few years ago. We test drove a few cars while they appraised her Jeep. When we came back we asked how much the trade-in would be and they said we "didn't even want to know" because, due to its high mileage, they couldn't give us more than she had owed on it. They actually told us to wait until it was paid off because then we could get a better deal. How many car salesman give you good financial advice?

I think that its reasons like this that are why they are not only the largest Subaru dealer in the country, but they are also the most profitable. The warranty work I had done on my car their kinda sucked (had to complain several times to get problems fixed), although their $8/day loaner cars were pretty sweet and it was kinda nice that they were open until midnight too. I'd still buy from them again and always recommend them to people.

Really I can't picture myself ever haggling over a car again. Unfortunately Van Bortel only has 2 dealerships: Subaru and Ford. So that pretty much limits my buying choices next time to Subarus, Fords, Saturns and now Scions.

travis

Interestingly they are also lazy: they request it only once and just print the website report. The report is - surprise - fine, but I wasn't really interested in that (I expected that it was fine anyway - otherwise they probably wouldn't offer the report to begin with), I looked on the top of the page: when was this report printed? Ahh, a month ago...

Very handy later, when I actually talked about the price for that car (I also knew the comps in the area, so I offered a reasonable amount and had my financing).

BTW: I allowed the dealer to offer me their financing and it was actually better (I had my financial calculator with me to play with the numbers fast than them). Good for them and me.

mmm43

http://www.stocktontomaloneripoff.com

arthurtem

1) Have financing lined up outside of the dealership ahead of time, but always check with the dealership when you purchase to see if you can get a better rate/terms using the dealers financing sources. Sometimes (especially on older or specialty used vehicles), the dealership may have better terms than what is available through your other financial institution.

2) Go into the dealership with the following number in mind: The difference in price you are willing to pay between your car and the trade. This is the only number that really matters, in most places, this is what you will pay sales tax on (in most places), and this is how much will be added to your financed amount.

3) Negotiate the trade difference number, and this number alone, it is irrelevant what your trade is worth or what the dealership's car is worth. If you want the difference to be $5,000, it doesn't matter if the dealership writes the purchase order as Trade value = $100,000 or trade value = $1, as long as the total price on the bottom line is $105,000 or $5001. Let the dealership deal with the accounting.

NOTE: if you live in a state or municipality that taxes you based on total purchase price of a vehicle, you will need to negotiate that number as well, but stick to your guns on the differnce in price.

4a) After the sale process has been completed and you are pretty sure you will be buying the car, the saleman will direct you to a "Finance" manager or rep. In the industry, these individuals are known as F&I managers (that stands for Finance and Insurance) their job is to make the dealership profit. The profit made on the sale is scant compared to this stuff. Listen carefully, and politely decline everything. (Do you really need paint chip protection on a 5 year old car?) Except: See 4b...

4b) A tip to amend point 4a... Sometimes, you can get away with a really good deal on your car deal if you are willing to purchase something from the F&I guy - ask. If the dealership is coming back at you with a differnce of $7,000, and you want to spend $6,000, offer the dealership a differnce of $5000, and you will buy $1000 worth of Insurance and warranty products. You will be immensly surprised of how well this works as that $2000 drop might lose the dealership $400-500 on the car, but the $1000 in insurance could give the dealer $750 profit.

mc331

Also, I've heard from a few people that AutoByTel is the way to go. Here's an Ask MeFi where they talk about it.

PandemicSoul

1. Go to dealership
2. Smack yourself for going to the dealership
3. Buy the car privately

You will almost always get a car cheaper if you buy from a private owner. I bought a $17,500 (dealer price) car for $15,000 from a private owner and mine was in much better condition.

The thing you have to worry about is that there is no warranty (not usually for used cars anyway), but you can pay $50 or so to have the car inspected before you agree to buy it, and pay $500 for a 3rd party warranty and you still come out on top.

You don't have to deal with scummy salesman, only people on your level - people who have as much experience buying and selling cars as you do - and most importantly, people who either aren't smart enough or don't care enough to scam you.

The car is worth $10,000? Yea, I could let it go for $9000. They're excited to sell it so they can get on to the next thing.

I tried a few dealers, yea they're nice and everything, but they're only nice because they think they can rip you off more. I'll never buy from a dealership.

Two mistakes: Buying a new car and buying it from a dealership. Anyone who tells you otherwise is, quite literally, trying to sell you something.

If you want a newish car, buy one that is a year old.

That is all.

sam-i-am

tadowguy

Reading this reminded me of when i bought my last truck. I am one of those types who hates financing and would rather wait and save up the money than be indebt to someone else.So when i bought my last truck i let the saleman go through his whole routine and then i just said to him if you knock off 2000 and have it plated and ready for me to drive off the lot by closing time I will bring you a cashiers cheque for the full amount when i come to pick it up. Other wise i would go down the street to another dealership and not come back here. Sure enough 7pm that day i was driving my new truck.

potskie

Would love to see a variation from a motorcycle perspective. I've been playing the dealer game in Southern CA and have noticed the brand dealers are consistent with regard to their tactics, but the variation between brands is amazing. Unfortunately the amount of resources available on the net are less than helpful.

cds2

Other general advice:
- If you're buying a car on the lot you can generally get a better deal than if they have to trade for it or order it.

LintMan

Got my money back went to another dealer and bought one for the original price I was wanting that day. Acceptable enough replacement.

I will keep what you said in when I go to replace my wife's car. She loves VW's!

IshmealMathers

Miguel Valdespino

Wow. And I thought the image of a customer walking in with "sucker" written on his forehead was just a metaphor.

castlecraver

Also, as a frequent new car buyer, the best advice is do your homework, and the deal, from home where you are comfortable and confident. Arrange your financing, research the invoice price, make the deal online. You should be at the dealer to confirm and sign the contract you already approved and take delivery. That's it. Do not even try to haggle in person, there is no reason to risk it. You are probably not a professional negotiator, they are. When you deal online, everything is black and white, you have time to examine everything, and your emotional state is not a factor. Be prepared to walk away if they try a bait and switch. I've never experienced this but I've heard it happens. Bring copies of all your emails just in case there is a discrepancy.

I have purchased many new cars over the years. The first time they got me with the 4 square. I ended up being a victim of the $10/mo thingy. I gave in, ehh whatever, it's only $10/mo, right? I drove my new car home thinking I was unhappy with my negotiating skills and I wouldn't let that happen again instead of loving my new car. That was a learning experience for me. Every time after that I have driven my new car home knowing that I got the EXACT deal I wanted and that it was fair and that I LOVE my new car.

CBR2200

Use the Rizzo method (google it) and you'll deal with fleet managers who don't have a personal commission stake in your sale and will be interested in giving you the best deal. Yeah, car salesmen hate it, but unless you're a car salesman, who cares?

Greg L

I should note however that we don't have the full flexibility European customers get for a total mix-and-match; we're still restricted to option packages. But you still get to get your car without having to worry about someone beating you to it, or having to find the exact combo you want in the color you want. In short, any combo you can build on kbb.com you can order.

I wanted a 4-door white GTI with "package 2" (leather sport seats, dualzone climate control) and navigation and an ipod connector rather than a CD changer, the rubber floor mats (standard ones are carpeted), the kind you can just blast with a hose to clean, and a few other small things. And that's what went on the order sheet, and that's what will roll off the truck with MY NAME on it. No worries about another dealer scooping it out of the factory queue for another customer -- they can only mark/take cars that aren't sold orders.

Buran

It depends on the make. Volkswagen does do the typical "dealer orders cars, they show up on the lot, you pick from what's there or do a dealer trade" but the better dealers/salespeople will place an order for you for exactly what you want.

When the order is placed for a customer who has submitted a deposit, the order is marked as a "sold order" and other dealers cannot open the details sheet (VW's ordering system seems IE-based from the screenshots the salesguysent me for my photo scrapbook) for the vehicle. VW also places your name right on the window sticker when the vehicle is delivered (something else for my scrapbook). You select everything that goes into the car.

For VWs, the wait time is approximately 12 weeks although it can and does sometimes vary -- my ETA is June 11th although it could slip a bit; that's fine as I want to actually buy (and start paying) this summer. I asked what the lead time was back in January and timed the order to take advantage of it.

If you are interested in a Volkswagen, definitely ask "Will you order what I want, for the price negotiated?" If they say no, or tell you they can't do custom orders, call someone else.

For other makes, find a fan forum for the make you are interested in and ask around if you can't find the answers you seek by searching the messages already posted. While the forums seem to be filled with a lot of repetitive fluff sometimes, there's enough nice people (at least on vwvortex.com) that you'll find your answer soon enough. Actually, I do suggest the car purchasing forum on that site -- you can get questions about ALL makes answered there, not just VW, since the purchasing forum shows up on all of the "affiliate" car fan sites owned by Vortex Media Group (Mazda, Subaru, Volvo).

(As for VW's reliability problems... I haven't been bitten, but I'm careful with my vehicles, know cars well, especially VWs, and the bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4 years on the 2007 GTI. If anything breaks and the warranty expires I'm not afraid of fixing it myself if it's something within my abilities.).

Buran

carbuyingtips.com
edmunds.com
cars.com

nerevar

One other trick I encountered - I'd seen the car outside the dealer for about 3 months, and then magically when I happen to go in an ask about it, they have someone else come in and take it out for a test drive. Needless to say it was still there the next week, and this was likely just a buddy of theirs trying to create the impression that the car was "in demand" and I'd better make a deal fast.

virgilstar