The sales rep did his song and dance and insisted that I test out the phone service for 2 weeks. I said no a few times but he wouldn’t hear it. Well, he gave me 2 phones and 2 phone numbers. No credit check, no money whatsoever. I walked out of the store with 2 free phones and some paper work.

Now Rob can't give the phones back. After several fruitless visits where the store manager told Rob he had to talk to the original salesman (who was never there) to return the phones, Rob simply left them on the counter. A few days later, they arrived at his doorstep via FedEx—along with a photocopy of another customer's driver license.

Here's the full story of what happened after Rob brought the two phones home back in July:

Seven days later we returned to the same store to drop the phones off. They hadn’t been opened or anything. Previously in the week I was cleaning and probably threw out a white piece of paper with what phones we had.

...I had to speak with the exact rep because I didn’t have the all important white piece of paper and there was no way to look at what I had. The rep was not working that day and was told to return Tuesday during the afternoon. I refused because I don’t drive and I'm not taking a bus to a mall from the southern part of the twin cities to the northern part just to drop phones off.

We return that next Sunday (27th) and again were told we can’t give back the phones because the rep isn’t working. I demanded to speak with a manager. I tell him my story, and he finds it interesting about how I got the phones and service. I made a point to say "I said no," and he said, “Yeah he does that a lot.” He mutters something about letting him go and says he can’t do anything because I don’t have the piece of paper.

Flash forward to August 11th, almost a full month after getting the phones, my fiancé and I finally have time to go back to the mall (she works nights I work days). I walk in with the phones. The manager sees me, throws his hands up in the air and says "Not you people again." He tells me to stand over out of the way while helping people. We wait for 15 minutes. Only one person approaches us, some sales rep, and I explain the story and he’s dumbfounded. Finally I walk up to the counter and put the phones on the counter and explain again what’s going on and all I want to do is drop them off. I was assured that it would be taken care of.

Later that night my fiancé and I went to a real T-Mobile store and purchased our phones and service.

On August 15th, a Fedex box is sitting on my door step. Not expecting anything, I open it—what do you know they sent the phones back to me! But whats this, there is more then just two cell phones. The missing piece of white paper they said they don’t have, the whole reason I couldn’t return the phones. But wait there is even more! Two other identical pieces of paper but with others people’s phone information / plan information and a copy of someone’s drivers license!

So I quickly called Mobile Solutions HQ and talk to some girl in California. I explain the situation and she says, “Well we need those phones back. I’m shipping you out some prepaid UPS labels.” I asked what about me getting other people’s identification information. “Well I’m not there so I don’t know what to do.” I look at the address of the license, and it turns out the woman on the license only lives about a mile and half from me if that.

My fiancé and I get in the car and we drive to her house. I knock on the door, ask her if she is so and so on the card she says yes. I asked her if she purchased a phone from the Mobile Solutions in Northtown Mall in Blaine? Again she says yes. I then ask, “Does this look familiar?” showing her her license. Her jaw is on the floor. She exclaimed, "How in the world did you get that?" I explained to her how it came in a Fed Ex package and she was very grateful and thanked me several times, and she was also upset and said she would call Mobile Solutions promptly.

So now I’m still stuck with 2 phones, 2 lines of service that I’m sure still runs if I cared to try and other people’s information. What should I do now?

If Mobile Solutions doesn't have any of your personal information where they can't ruin your credit, return the phones via the UPS labels and promise us you'll never step foot in that store again.

If they have a copy of your drivers license or other important personal info, it's time to make it very clear to Mobile Solutions that you have no intention of being their customer, no matter how hard they make it for you to return the unopened phones. This is a funny story, but it sounds to us like they're trying to force a sale on you, which is criminal rather than incompetent.

Contact Mobile Solution Corporation's main office in San Diego and file a complaint against the Blaine store. Make it clear that you have tried three times to return the phones, and that they are refusing to accept your return. You should also make it clear that the only acceptable resolution for this issue is for Mobile Solutions to accept your return and promise to leave you and your credit history alone. Look at our various EECB posts for more information on how to effectively communicate with a business.

Mobile Solution Corporation
3030 Plaza Bonita Rd
National City, CA 91950
(619) 472-1018
(619) 479-1648

You may also want to contact the Office of the Minnesota Attorney General and file a formal complaint against the store for its business practices, even if the corporate office in San Diego is able to resolve the problem for you. We suspect the Blaine store has some rotten apples on staff and you may help future customers by sounding an alarm now.

Update: Rob sent the following information to us after we posted the story.

As an update I called back the corporate # and [they] didn’t find it cool I wanted to sell the phones. There is some sort of investigation being done and the original salesmen has been fired. After reading some comments I could have been more clear. The only info they got was a copy of my State ID which had my current address on it. I also signed a piece of paper saying “You have two weeks if you don’t return them the phones in two weeks we can charge you blah , blah, blah.” Well, they never took money or a credit card.

Anyway people have been in contact with me. I took the phones because the guy kept insisting and I wanted to be nice. At best I thought what's the worst can happen? I keep the phones for a week bring them back unopened and that will be that.

We still think you should make sure the company accepts a full return and absolves you from that signed agreement, because even without a credit card they may still try to bill you, then eventually send the bill to a collection agency.

1. I love, love, love this car
Even if you fall in love with a car, maintain your composure and don't let the salesman realize it. It is easy for salesmen to manipulate you when they know that you will do almost anything to own the car.

2. I need to get a car by tomorrow
Even if you need the car quickly, act like there's no desperate need for the car. If he senses your desperation he will realize that you won't be thinking carefully about your choice and will accept most anything.

3. I need a monthly payment of...
The monthly payment is only one part of the equation. A salesman can give you that monthly payment and still rip you off in another area such as in the number of payments or trade-in value. Ideally, you should calculate what you can afford based on your monthly budget and expected trade-in value and negotiate that big number. Now, agree on a monthly payment and then negotiate any trade-in value.

4. My trade-in is outside
If you let him know it is outside he will want the keys. If the deal starts to go south, your keys may be somehow misplaced in which case you will be forced to listen to his sales pitch longer than you want to.

5. I don't know anything about leasing
Even if you don't plan on leasing a car, you should learn about leasing to help make you impervious to the salesman who may try to sell you the idea. Usually, leasing only makes sense if you know that you won't be keeping the car for several years. If you do plan to lease, you should be familiar with the costs of leasing beyond monthly payments. You should also be aware of how many miles are included in the lease and any money that needs to be paid up front or at the end of the lease.

6. My credit is a little spotty
Often, consumers underestimate their own credit score. Ideally, you should try to secure a loan you can use for "plan B" in case you don't like what the dealership has to offer. This gives you bargaining power and lets you know more clearly where you stand with your credit rating.

6 things never to tell a car salesman [CNN]

In March of 2007 our civil suit attorney contacted Dan Wolf. Dan Wolf owns Toyota of Naperville and other dealerships in the chicagoland area. Dan Wolf immediately fired Mr. James V Gentile in March 2007.... Toyota of Naperville has been served in November of 2007. Mr. James V Gentile aka Jim was hard to serve. Finally April of 2008 he got his papers...

Update on the criminal case... The states attorney has counted 19 blocked phone calls going to my cell phone from his home phone and his cell phone! Starting December 2005 and ending April 2006. Some how the jerk is having his attorney ( James Moore office of Rockford,IL) to pull off getting the case continued. The latest stunt they pulled was this... Court date in April was continued to June 12th because his attorney told the states attorney that he will take the plea. I was happy and I thought maybe there is some good in this man. But no, I get a call from the states attorney on June 12th to come down to the court house to testify! I could not believe it! So I went down to the court house and met with the States Attorney only to be told it will be continued due to the judge assigned to the case is on Vacation! The next court date is set for August 7th, but I am not going to count on it!

To the dealerships out in the Chicagoland area, if you have him as an employee, watch out, he maybe doing this to your customers! To the public, if he is your salesman, please beware of what kind of person he is!

The wheels of consumer justice grind slowly, and they grind exceedingly small.*

Read previous updates to this thread here.

(Photo: Beth and Christian)

* with hat tip to Friedrich von Logau(with hat tip to Friedrich von Logau

Kingston S: Welcome to HP Total Care for Desktops. My name is Kingston. How may I assist you today?

Consumerist Reader: hello my compaq has expanded leaking capacitors

Kingston S: Hi [redacted], how are you doing today?

Consumerist Reader: my compaq has expanded leaking capacitors

Kingston S: I understand your concern. Let us go through the issue and check how best we can resolve it.
Kingston S: In order to understand the issue better, please let me ask you few questions.
Kingston S: May I confirm your email id as: [redacted, but misspelled]?

Consumerist Reader: it's [redacted]

Kingston S: Alright. Please let me know if the operating system in your computer is Windows XP.

Consumerist Reader: it's xp

Kingston S: May I know when this issue started?

Consumerist Reader: it's been intermittent for a while it's gotten progressively worse with the compter hanging or not starting

Kingston S: May I confirm the model number of your computer facing the issue as: Compaq Presario 6010US Desktop PC?

Consumerist Reader: that's correct

Kingston S: [redacted], I am sorry about that but I will not be able to assist you in this regard as it is out of my support boundary. Shall I share my views with you instead?

Consumerist Reader: what?

Kingston S: [redacted], you can contact the Authorized Service Providers and they may be able to do something for this.
Kingston S: This is because this was one of the best computer model when it was released.

Consumerist Reader: is there a phone number?

Kingston S: Now, that it has become old, and the options for taking it for a bench repair is not left at all.
Kingston S: The phone support is a paid support.
Kingston S: [redacted], don't you think it is high time to upgrade your PC?
Kingston S: Why I suggested that because HP is selling new computers at attractive discount prices which has got all the Advanced features and latest technology support.
Kingston S: It is also shipped with the latest Windows Vista operating system.
Kingston S: There is an instant rebate going on with HP. You will get computers from HP even with the latest Windows Vista operating system preinstalled starting from $ 350. Isn't that an awesome offer?

Consumerist Reader: I think I'll buy a Mac
Consumerist Reader: Compaq/HP obviously doesn't support what they sell.
Consumerist Reader: I've heard there are nothing but problems with Vista

Kingston S: If you are getting an operating system with same features and if it more user friendly, you should go for it. I am sorry. This product has become obsolete. So, Authorized Service Providers may be able to assist you.

Consumerist Reader: So you/hp can't help me?

Kingston S: I am sorry. I can only assist you with a PC upgrade now. If you are interested, we can arrange a call back only for upgrading to the up to date PC which we support completely.

Consumerist Reader: This is the last hp product I will ever buy.

(Photo: Getty)

I received a call from a Discover card rep today offering some information about some new program they're offering regarding being able to freeze your account, saying that they'd be mailing me an info packet. This rep was speaking so quickly, he was making the disclaimers on car dealer ads on the radio sound drawn out. I had to ask him twice to slow down and repeat what he'd just said.

The second time was after reading what he called a "30-second" spiel about the conditions of the mailing where I heard the words "payment protection" mentioned. Nothing had been said about this previously, so I asked him to repeat the end of his spiel. He said, "We'll be mailing you the information in three to five business days for your review. This constitutes your approval for enrollment in payment protection. I said, "I absolutely did not approve anything to be done to this account," and he HUNG UP!

Richard called Discover and made sure they had a clear understanding that he hadn't agreed to anything, but he shouldn't have to do that on an unsolicited telemarketing call. And as Richard points out, there will be impatient customers who end the call at the wrong time or with the wrong phrase who will end up being signed up against their will:

What galls me is that I'm positive the fast reading of that statement was designed to disguise the bit about "your approval for enrollment in payment protection," so that some impatient or less-attentive customer would just say, "Yeah, fine" simply to end the call and end up enrolled in something it wasn't made clear they were enrolling for.

When you start wishing you could sign up for a program to protect yourself from the credit card company, you know they've pushed their sales techniques too far.

(Photo: Getty)

"He proceeded to tsk tsk tsk about the absence of my discount. "Not a problem. I can take care of this for you and make sure you get the discount you signed up for." He was writing on a form, covering the majority with his arm. I craned my neck to look. He pivoted.

(snip part where salesman acts super creepy...)

"Thank you for signing up with IDT for energy savings and you tell my supervisor I was a nice guy, ok?" He squeezed my hand and smiled. "You bet." I turned, locked the door behind me and scanned the pink sheet. I'd never signed up before and the sheet said as much. The whole thing had been a shady way of hurrying unsuspecting folks through. I looked up the number, 1-877-887-6866, and waited on hold for ten minutes before reaching an operator. "A guy just came to my door, I'd like to cancel the Switch and Save program," I said.

Don't fall for this scam. Warn your friends and neighbors, and if a shady ESCO salesman comes to your door and pulls a deceptive marketing move like we describe here, shut the door on him and report it to your attorney general.

IDT Energy, or I Don't Think So Jack Ass [The Wink]
PREVIOUSLY: IDT Energy Still Scamming New York Residents
(Photo: Getty)

It looks like IDT Energy sales reps are back to their old tricks of getting customers to switch from ConEd by posing as ConEd workers and using misleading sales tactics. S.J. in Brooklyn has the report...

I reside in Brooklyn-This morning I happened to have had a visit from IDT energy salespeople-I have seen a few scams in my life and this is up there with many of the best.

Their M.O.was to ask whether I have received a 7% discount on my Con ed bill and if not whether they could check this on my con ed bill-Their was no mention of whether they are from IDT etc.

They carry a few Con Ed bills in their binder and they flash them around so that you think they are from Con Ed. One of them also carried an authentic looking meter reader-When I produced the bill, one of them starts writing the name, address and account number for me to sign. This is on IDT stationery but the top of the stationery is conveniently covered with a note pad.

I happened to notice ‘transfer request’(or something to that effect)somewhere on their stationery and took my Con Ed bills back-I then also realized that the top of the stationery, earlier hidden by the pad, is now visible which leads me to ask them what do they have to do with Con Ed-the answer cleverly camouflaged is that IDT is the energy provider to Con Ed.

I called IDT’s offices and asked them to refrain from using such misleading marketing methods as there are quite a few older people living in the neighborhood who may not realize what they are signing. After telling the operator that I will go ahead and warn my neighbors of this scam-the answer essentially was that I don’t know what my neighbors have been told and that they have to decide for themselves whether they want to switch or not. This is the first time the word ‘switch’ has been used.

I don’t know and don’t care what their rates are but I can deduce that if any company has to use such devious methods to enlist customers the rates must be astronomical.

Regards

S.J.

The bad news is that these ESCOs like to target elderly and non-native English speakers who may not realize what's going on, and could get hit with a hefty bill once their energy costs go from a fixed rate to a variable one subject to the volatility of the spot-energy market.

The good news is that if you find yourself tricked into switching from your regular service provider to IDT Energy, or any other kind of ESCO, it's pretty easy to undo. Just call your old service provider and tell them you want to switch back.

The bad news is that some consumers may not realize what happened and get stuck paying those hefty bills.

What makes this story even better is that ConEd just renamed itself National Grid, so it looks like these shady salesmen will have to get themselves new outfits.

In a related story, we once sent a reporter undercover to work at an IDT Energy sales office.

(Photo: Getty)

I don't normally waste my time with registering complaints, but my experience today was so upsetting that I cannot contain myself. My mother is in the process of car shopping to replace her current vehicle. While on CarSoup.com, I found a few cars in her price range that were priced very reasonable. I contacted the K2 Auto Group in Bloomington this morning by phone to see if we could stop by and take a look. I spoke with a very nice gentleman named John. My mother also spoke to John when we were having trouble locating the dealership. Upon arrival, we were greeted by a very rude elderly man who never did provide his name. From the moment we walked into the door, he began speaking down to us.

He asked us what brought us by, and the car I had really hoped to have her look at was sold. The man then asked what she was looking for. My mother, being rather lighthearted simply said, "A Car!" We were asked what our price range was and we told him between $10,000 and $15,000. The elderly man said, "So, what you really mean is you want a $15,000 car for $10,000." Assuming he was not intentionally being rude, we asked if to look around at their inventory. He simply said, "Yeah, whatever," as if to completely dismiss us. There were a few cars she liked. After we had looked at the inventory, we proceeded to the front of the dealership again where the man was seated. Not once we were ever asked if we needed help while looking at the cars.

When we got to the door, my mother jokingly said, "So what happens if I want to drive the car in the back? You'd have to move everything!" The man forcefully replied, "Well, if you want to drive something, go to the bank and get a cashier's check for the amount of the car and we'll let you drive it." Feeling a bit insulted and amazed that someone would be speaking to my mother in such a tone, I unfortunately let the conversation continue. He asked her what kind of a car she had in mind. Not having anything specific, she said, "I'm really open to anything that's not American, but I did like that 2002 Jaguar." With what must have required some real guts, the man said, "What the hell would YOU want with a Jaguar? Really, what are you doing here?" The man asked what kind of a car she had and she told him she had a 1997 Audi A6 but also liked the A4. He proceeded to arrogantly tell us how much he knew about the Audi and that she would only be happy with an A4 if she could, "Manage to afford one." This man also said, "You really shouldn't be making such a production about this. It's a used car." He then told us that if we wanted to look at a car, he had a 2004 Volvo outside that was, "A nice enough car for you and it's only $14,000, why don't you go take a look at that." Not only was this car more expensive than the Jaguar she inquired about, the tone which this extremely rude person spoke to her was completely uncalled for.

I highly doubt that this is the correct venue to lodge such a complaint, but having used CarSoup in the past to look at cars and contact sellers, I was extremely disappointed. I know this is not the kind of service or experience that is typical of dealers affiliated with your web site, and I hope to continue using CarSoup.com, although my mother definitely will not. This much I can say, I will NEVER step foot in K2's "showroom" ever again. Not only that, I will be sure that I inform everyone I know and even those that I don't that K2 is a terribly place to shop for a car.

(Image: Getty)

Prosper Inc.—where slow sellers are put on two-week notice, the supervisor keeps a "2x4 of motivation" on his desk, and the team leader "threatened to draw a mustache in permanent marker on the face of sales people for 'negativity'"—doesn't sound like a healthy place to work even on good days. But Hudgens was somehow surprised by the severity of the "team-building exercise" this time around.

Christopherson called the men into the break room and announced, "We're going to do an exercise." He asked for a volunteer.
 
Hudgens raised his hand. [Never raise your hand, Hudgens! First rule!]
 
"Keep in mind," he said, "the last time we did a team-building exercise outside, we did an egg toss."
 
Prosper maintains that Christopherson explained what would happen next, and Hudgens knew what he was in for, even handing his cellphone and keys to co-workers before lying down. Hudgens insists he had no clue.
 
"So they held me down," Hudgens said, "and the next thing I know, Josh has a gallon jug of water and he's pouring it on my face. I can't scream because the water's going down my throat.
 
"And halfway through he stopped for a second. I tried to mumble the words, 'Stop, knock it off.' I tried to get that out and he continued to pour."
 
"I'm not getting any air," Hudgens said. "Toward the end, I'm starting to black out. I'm getting very dizzy, light-headed. The sensation that's going through my head is, 'I'm going to drown.' "
 
That is the oft-described whole point of waterboarding, though Hudgens said he was not then familiar with the word. He said that what he told a friend in the human relations office two hours later, after "coughing, choking, mucus" was: "My team just tried to kill me."

Tricks of the trade [Dateline via AllFinancialMatters]

It's ostensibly a search engine, and it makes money getting businesses to buy prominent placement in their search results. But according to members of this forum, it's nothing but a scam:

RedZee is nothing but bogus. If you have purchased key phrases in their "top 3" ppc [pay per click] program, every single hit that comes from either their search engine or their spybar is a bounce.
 
I'll say this again because it is very important:
 
Every single hit that comes from either their search engine or their spybar is a bounce.
 
Excluding my own testing, in every single case where an IP address has entered my sites from the redzee search engine - either directly from their search engine or from browsers that have the redzee spybar installed, which appends redzee "top 3" ppc results to the top of the Google, MSN or Yahoo organic listings - that IP address goes no further than the landing page. In some cases, the IP bounces out before the entire landing page is requested from the server.
 
I have tested and confirmed this through exhaustive manual analysis of my raw log files. There is absolutely no doubt that the redzee "top 3" is a scam.

Just want warn everyone if (when) you get a call from Redzee.com to hang up the phone and save yourself some time. They are selling prepaid PPC packages for their "search engine" that is suppose to have all of this traffic blah blah blah.
 
Redzee wants you to pre buy for $4-500 worth or clicks...hint if they actually had traffic they wouldn't need you to prepay.

Redzee.com calls my office on a daily basis trying to get my boss to renew our account with him. It's to the point where I feel harassed. I ask the man to leave a message, and he declines and hangs up only to call back the very next day. When I first heard about Redzee, I did some research and they are nothing but a scam. They send web bots and crawlers to your site that hit the front page and then bounce. After a month of this guy calling and lying to me saying that he was making a 'personal' call to my boss, he finally started conversation with me in which I said that I was now in charge of making marketing decisions for our company.
 
He proceeded to tell me that my free trackers that I was using to monitor my web stats were not set up to properly monitor his traffic and that I needed to log in to my account on his site so that he could show me that his site was, in fact, was generating a considerable amount of traffic to my site. He then went on to say that his engine was a tier 2 search engine and that normal trackers don't track the type of search engine that his company uses. And then again said that I should log onto his site for accurate statistics.
 
He kept saying that he had clients waiting out the door for the opportunity that he was offering us, and I quite bluntly told him that he should then answer their calls and accept their business because I was not interested. He stammered a bit before again rambling his spiel about making an informed decision and logging into his site so that I could see the cold hard facts that I could not find anywhere else on the internet. How is what this company doing not fraud? They are selling you a service that they are not providing.
 
I see quite clearly through this scam, however my boss did not. Please post an article about Redzee.com and warn people not to waste their money or their time with this company. We need a reputable source such as the Consumerist to call a spade a spade and a scam a scam!
 
A simple Google search of redzee will show the top two hits as their sites, and the rest are message forums of people complaining about being ripped off.
 
Thanks guys,
Charlie

10. Sales Associate (SA) A ignored you - did not say hello, smile, make eye contact 21
9. SA didn't listen when explaining what you wanted 22
8. Product/item was out of stock 22
7. SA not very polite, courteous 24
6. SA not interested in helping you find what looking for 27
5. SA insensitive to long check-out lines 27
4. SA acted like you were intruding on their time/conversations 29
3. SA followed, pestered when you wanted to browse on own 30
2. Could not find anyone when needed help 31
1. SA had 'that's not my department' attitude 32

Does this hold true for you? What most turns you off when you go out shopping?

Shopper Research Pinpoints Loyalty, Problems [ifoAppleStore] (Thanks to Jgodsey!)
What Customers Expect Sales Associates To Contribute Toward The In-Store Experience (Powerpoint)
(Photo: Getty)

Hi Consumerist,

I've been reading your website for quite a while and need some help for my brother. He went to Bay Ridge Nissan in Brooklyn, NY to lease a Nissan Pathfinder. He negotiated the deal to 311 a month and 1200 out of pocket costs. When I went with him to the dealership on Wednesday to pick up the car and sign the paperwork, the numbers were all changed. They added a bunch of fees, including a mysterious prep fee. After much negotiating, we decided not to buy the vehicle. My brother had left a $500 deposit earlier, and they said he would get it back.

Today, the salesman called and begged him to come take the car. After he said no, the salesman said he's not getting his deposit back. The salesman also intercepts any phone calls to the manager and says we must only speak to his manager and his manager will be in tomorrow. He said we'd be surprised at what he can make up to keep the deposit. I'm wondering what to do to get the deposit back.

Your other recourse is to take the dealership to small claims court, where you stand a good chance of getting back your money.

Whatever you decide to do, you should also report the dealership to the New York Attorney General's office via their complaint form, and while you're there read up on their advice and warnings for car buyers in New York.

"How To Kick A Scammy Car Dealer In The Nuts"
"Suing Big Companies In Small Claims Court Is Fun And Easy"
"How To Take Your Case To Small Claims Court"
"Consumer Issues" [NYSOAG ]

RELATED
Tips
"Dealerships Rip You Off With The "Four-Square," Here's How To Beat It"
"13 Step Method For Buying A Car While Controlling The Sale And The Price"
"Buying A Car: Always Up The Ante"
"The Art of The Buy: Hide Your Time Wisely"

Scams
"Reader Falls Victim To Spot Delivery Dealership Scam"
"Car Dealership Bilks Old Man and Steals $2000 With His ATM Card"

Universal officials in Toronto told Target 8 Investigators that over the life of the five-year plan they believe customers will actually save money. They say you shouldn't judge the plan six months into a five-year contract, even though prices are currently dropping.

Former salesman Al Brogg, who calls the way Universal sells gas "misleading, dishonest, unethical," also thinks that might still happen, and that it might work eventually in customers favor.

But he said, "Today it's not going to save people money. It's actually going to cost them almost 50 percent more."

Universal officials take no responsibility for any lies told by sales people. They say lying violates their code of conduct, however, "it's possible...a couple of sales people went off and did their own thing to increase sales."

It should go without saying, but if you can't compare apples to apples between two bills, don't change to a new supplier. Sadly, most gas bills are hard to read. Here's one attempt to clarify some of the numbers—you should look for a Gas Recovery Cost. You should also do a search for a similar "how to read my gas bill" page on your local gas supplier's website.

(Thanks to Jack!)

"Traveling gas sales people: we 'misled' customers" [WOODTV]
(Photo: tanakawho)

1) "The Service Plan covers everything" In fact, it doesn't cover most things. Don't believe any salesman who says it covers physical damage, spills, cosmetic damage, etc. Also, after you have you machine replaced (after 3 repairs), the Service Plan stops working. The salesman will act like the replacement is a benefit, really it's so FS can wash their hands of your buggy hardware.

2) "I'm going to give you a discount"
More often than not my co-workers would lie about high priced items, claiming to take off hundreds of dollars on cables or warranties to trick uninformed shoppers. Always shop around and find out how much things are worth, and watch what the items scan in at instead of taking his word.

3) "This model is a Future Shop exclusive"
Danger Will Robinson. "Exclusives" are always a repackaged retail product, usually with a slight cosmetic change, but bumped up several hundred dollars. As my manager put it: "They move the speakers from the bottom to the sides, repaint it and we mark it up". Salesmen make about triple commission on these models, so there's strong incentive to push them.

4) "Setup will avoid hours of work"
This only applies to computers, but it's good to know. Most salesmen try to push this on technophobes, saying that it's a complicated procedure involving special tools. Really, they click through the Vista install, run regedit to stop some software and burn a backup disk. Oh, and it's automated. Unless your time is worth about 30 dollars an hour do it yourself.

5) "You're saving on x"
With some products there are legitimate discounts available for bundling, and managers have the authority to offer real discounts on unbundled product. However, avoid bundles like "Pay 350 dollars for setup and get free Office and Antivirus". You end up saving about 20 dollars on Office and Antivirus, but you're paying 80 dollars for useless setup still. If you're going for a discount refuse to tack on anything you don't want, and try to push the salesman. It'll hurt his numbers to help you, but he won't want to lose a big sale.

6) "You need Monster Cables/Setup/x to make this work well"
Anyone who reads Consumerist knows Monster Cables are a scam, so avoid them like the plague. They make the salesman about 25 dollars per cable, and leave you with very expensive copper. Similarly, some salesmen say computers won't work well without setup, which less technically-inclined customers tend to believe.

7) "You have to buy x"
Legally, the store is obligated to sell you any available (nondisplay) product at the advertised price. Many stores "pre-setup" their laptops to avoid making customers wait for setup. Salesmen see this as an excuse to force the setup on you. Legally (at least in my store), if the customer didn't want setup we had to give them the laptop at the sticker price, with setup. If the salesman is too pushy ask for a manager, who will know the rules a lot better.

RELATED
"Monster Cables, Monster Ripoff: 80% Markups"
(Photo: Getty)

1. Silence.
2. Say, "That's not good enough."
3. Request a combo deal, then, if it's refused, say, "well if you're not going to give me that, the price needs to come down," thereby creating a push-pull price dynamic the salesmen must either pivot out of or deal with.

Negotiation Techniques To Score a Great Deal [Money Crashers]

Lenka's story about a guy in a RCN shirt trying to set up a cable appointment at the gas station just turned very scary. The guy is a known rapist, says another reader:

That person is a known problem in the Edgewater neighborhood from RCN, and has actually been trying to rape women. He'll schedule appointments, has the whole pricing structure memorized, he'll then schedule install times, and then go over and rape the woman.

This story folds into this week's theme of avoiding sketchy people trying to sell you stuff in parking lots. We're worried, though. In her report, Lenka said she noticed the guy go up to another female customer who seemed to "engage him in conversation."

Our reader says they came by this info by way of a cop friend of theirs. Sketches of the RCN guy are said to be up in area police stations. When asked why the police haven't caught him yet, our reader said, "This is Chicago, Priorities are different here." — BEN POPKEN

PREVIOUSLY: Has RCN Been Harassing You At The Gas Station?

Etiquette expert Judith Martin, also known as Miss Manners, advises saying: "Thank you, but I'm not interested. Can we please just get on with our business?" Ouch! But she's right. You don't owe the company your undying attention.

Personally, the "We're not interested" response works well for us when we're being solicited by a person (either directly or via phone.) When it's an automated phone message from a place I'm trying to contact, we either start hitting "0" to get to a real person. But ifweI can't get away from it (which is the case with many of the credit card activation upsells you have to listen to while they "activate" your card (which probably takes three seconds in real time), we simply put the call on speakerphone, set down the phone, and do something else until we hear them give up. — Free Money Finance

Just say no to the 'upsell' [MSN Money]

WEIGOLDS: Mr. Gentile changed from jury trial to bench trial. This automatically delays another 2 months! The new date is March 15th. Our states attorney did not do his home work anyway. We are pushing him to obtain Jim's phone records before next trial date. Another wasted day off! Don't know what happened we were told jury trials are expensive.

CONSUMERIST: How do you think this will affect your case?

WEIGOLDS: The statute of limitations runs out 2 years from the date of the last offense. We still have time but..... hurry up and wait! We have contacted our civil lawyer waiting for a return call, we are going to tell him to proceed to file instead of waiting for the verdict from the criminal matter.

— BEN POPKEN

Previously:
UPDATE: Consumer Takes Sleazy Prius Salesman To Court
Consumer Takes Sleazy Prius Salesman To Court
UPDATE: Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Salesman's Arrest Warrant
UPDATE: Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Warrant For Saleman's Arrest
Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Warrant For Saleman's Arrest

— BEN POPKEN

Previously:
Consumer Takes Sleazy Prius Salesman To Court
UPDATE: Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Salesman's Arrest Warrant
UPDATE: Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Warrant For Saleman's Arrest
Sleazy Prius Deal Ends in Warrant For Saleman's Arrest

Angela Wiegold tells us that on October 19th 2006 there was another pre-trial hearing for the defendant Mr. James Gentile who entered a not guilty plea to the charge of a Class B criminal misdemeanor.

The State's Attorney has ordered for a copy of Mr. Gentiles home and cell phone records. The Weinglod's call log for April 2006 shows 5 calls in one day.

You can follow the outcome with this online app. Type in: GENTILE JAMES.

The Wiegold's lawsuit against Mr. Gentile is on hold, pending the trial's outcome.

The next court date is Dec 11th, 2006.

Backstory here.

If we were to distill the essence of the advice, it would be:

1) Constantly press for a lower price. Mark-ups on cars are huge. They can afford it.

2) If someone says to you "You need to sign now to get this price," tell them you'll sleep on it, then casually walk away.

3) Take your quote from one car dealership to another. Play car salesman against each other.

4) The same advice goes for trading in and old car towards a new one, except in reverse: always raise the ante. If the car salesmen really freeze up, you can always go to another, or reapproach them.

The full email is worth reading, since it's essentially a parable of the wisdom of such advice. Go on over and check it out.

Reader Submission: Fritz Buys a New Car [Get Rich Slowly]

That salesman's nickname? Ominously enough, "The Cinnamon Bun."

"Car salesman accused of machete attack" [AP] (Thanks to Amy's Robot!)

Consider Kenneth Hammel, a handicapped Pennsylvania man who's either 77 or 87 years old, depending on which report you read. He walked into the Cherry Hill, New Jersey, Triplex car dealership last December, looking for a vehicle that could accommodate his wheelchair lift.

The dealership sold him a defective Kia Sedona van, at a price $700 over the MSRP. When he brought the van in a few weeks later for repairs, they gave him a different car, but not as a replacement under the lemon law. Rather, they treated the vehicle as a trade-in, and the "necessary paperwork" he signed unwittingly bought him another, higher priced car.

To top it off, they asked him for his ATM card so they could run a "credit check." They took $2000 from his account.

It goes without saying that they took advantage of an old man who didn't know what he was really doing. Whether we want to see anyone like that driving is a separate issue.

The dealership should worry, though. Hammel has retained the services of a lawyer named Craig Thor Kimmel. The guy's middle name is "Thor," for God's sake. May his Hammer of Justice strike the Anvil of Ripoff Artists!

Lawsuit claims dealership pulled bait-and-switch [phillyburbs.com]
87 Year Old, Handicapped Man from Bucks County Sues Cherry Hill Triplex for Fraud, Deceptive Practices and Theft of Thousands of Dollars [press release, via Yahoo]

Packaged with the confirmation number, Bill was subjected to a series of sales pitches, one by one. Lowe's. Cable TV. Phone service. Security system. Coupons for something or another. When would the madness stop? Maybe with a timeshare opportunity in Las Vegas?

Maybe Bill is just a little too nice, but he should have asked for the confirmation and left it at that. No e-mailing of coupons, no sales pitches, just a goddamn confirmation number.

Companies are obviously desperate to work the phone for sales, since the Do-Not-Call List makes cold-calling harder. But this is excessive.

And remember, you can always say no. Toughen up, Bill!

Bill's e-mail, after the jump...

OK, so I'm not 100% sure what's going on here, but I figured I'd write and hopefully gain some insight into this...

I'm in the process of buying a house. Closing is in a few weeks, but I figured I'd get a jump on things to try and make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible.

I called my "local" electric company, AmerenIP, and spoke to a woman who knew her job pretty well and got me taken care of. She then said she'd transfer me to another company - I can't quite remember the name - for my "confirmation number."

I thought this was a little odd - I mean, why can't she give me a confirmation number herself? Still, who am I to say what might be happening, so I just said sure and waited.

Another lady picked up and said she would email me my confirmation number and a 10% off coupon for Lowe's if she could have my email address. Erm, okay. What - she can't just tell me the number? I'm pretty paranoid about my real email address so I gave her my spamtastic email.com account. I plan to fish it out later. Maybe.

Then she starts in with a new offer - that she'll help transfer over all of my other services. Free of charge, of course. I was getting a little on the paranoid side so hesitantly said "sure" (more out of curiosity than anything else) and she starts going through possible services I might have.

I let her know the cable's taken care of, along with high-speed internet. Check.

She asked about my local phone service. I told her I don't have or need local service. "Why?" "My girlfriend and I both have good cell service and don't need a land line." Her pitch basically amounted to, "Sir, we recommend basic phone service for 911 emergency calls so the police could locate you more quickly than they could with a cell phone." Having worked for the phone company before, I already know this is a line of crap - you can dial 911 on any phone that has a dial tone. Still, she continues her sales pitch more or less trying to scare me into signing up for basic phone service.. I make sure she knows we need no such thing.

Next on the menu of marketing offers was a "free home security consultation." By this point, I knew that Ameren had basically connected me with a telemarketer and told her that I really would not be needing this. I informed her I'd take care of the gas bill myself, and that I was going to disconnect.

Not to be distracted, she asked at the end if she could email me "$100 worth of coupons". Whatever. It's a junk account, and I was just ready to get off the phone by that point. I said okay, thnaked her for her time (old habits die hard) and got off the phone.

So seriously - what the hell? Since when did my service call become an opportunity for some third-party to make some money with dubious "services"?

Although a repository of technical information, the site makes a point to cover defects, recalls, safety issues and other issues dear after our consumerist heart. There's quite a few articles that will help you negotiate lower car prices, buy cars over the internet, get low cost financing or insure your vehicle.

We really like the idea of wikis to share, spread and dynamically update consumerist information. It's a great form for it. If anyone knows of any others, mail us and let us know. We'd like to get a library of these things put together.

Wikicars

Another car buying travesty came across our desk and while interesting in its own right, one sentence in particular got our knuckles cracking for the post.

"I was trying to beat the 1% sales tax increase in New Jersey, so I really only had a few days to make the deal on the car final. Once I explained my situation to the dealer his demeanor changed for the worse..."

All you did there is point to a big lever in your back and say "pull here for easy access." When negotiating, never let the salesman know when you need to complete the sale. A salesman's worse fear is that you will walk off the parking lot without buying. By saying time is of the essence, he figures he's got you locked down and can ratchet up the pressure. He figures he can force concessions. Your time is your own, so keep it a secret from those who would use it against you.

The rest of Dawud's letter is after the jump. Ultimately, he did the right thing by walking away from a high-pressure salesman. But how else could he have responded in the first situation?

Dawud writes:

"Hey guys/gals,

I just wanted to share my pain. I recently bought a new VW Rabbit and I shopped around a bit first to try to get the best deal. Anyway, the first dealership I went to was Hamilton VW, I should mention that this is my first time buying a new car, so while I did a lot of research I didn't know what to expect from the dealer but I was optimistic. I'm a bit of a geek so I was pleased with VW's whole 'build your car' feature, it takes you through and lets you choose your options and everything, and then it sends your information to a local dealer for a quote. A few days later I was contacted by the internet sales manager via e-mail about my quote and we set up an appointment for a test drive, so far so good. When I actually got to the dealership things started to go down hill.

The first problem I had was that the dealer was pushy, I wanted a 2 door and he kept trying to push me into a four door every time I asked about a specific feature he would start pitching the four door again which was irritating but I didn't let it get to me.

Next we go in to talk numbers, I had been saving for the car for a while so I already knew how much I wanted to pay and I was willing to pay pretty much exactly what they were asking for the car, but for some reason what should have been a painless procedure turned into another hassle. In the middle of this we get interrupted by some other customers of his, apparently they wanted a Passat, which costs about 30k more than the Rabbit, and for some reason that's beyond me the dealer basically indicated to me that I was small potatoes and he really had to take care of the Passat people.

Now I felt insulted, but it was about to get worse, the dealer left me at the desk to go talk to the other customers for about 20 minutes, afterwards he came back to tell me how sorry he was and pitch me the four door again, before leaving for another 20 minutes to woo the people who wanted the Passat. At this point I was getting really frustrated, but not knowing any better I stuck around and waited for the guy to get back to me.

So he finally comes back, apologizes again and asks me how I was intending to pay for the car. Being the responsible young man that I am I had been saving for a new car for the past two years so I had ~half the cost of the car covered with my down payment, and I had already secured a loan for the rest with a sweet 7% interest rate. \I should mention here that time was of the essence because I was trying to beat the 1% sales tax increase in New Jersey, so I really only had a few days to make the deal on the car final (it was Wednesday and the increase was scheduled for Friday).

Once I explained my situation to the dealer his demeanor changed for the worse, he started telling me that he could only get a deal done that quickly if I went through VW's financing and that if he did he probably couldn't get me an interest rate as good as the one I had. I explained that I had good credit and that it wouldn't hurt to put in a credit application for me to see what kind of number I would get back, and if it was agreeable I would see what I could do. Then he told me that it would be $500.00 for the credit application. I was surprised because I was under the impression that credit applications were free. Sales guy replies back that the $500.00 is for the deposit on the car, and that I need to put down a deposit before he can do the credit application.

I had never heard of this before, but as it was my first time buying a new car I conceded and gave him the $500.00 bucks. On my way home I'm feeling mildly violated, like that feeling you get when someone touches you in an intimate area and you can't decide if they did it on purpose or if it was an accident. TMI? Okay, moving on. So I'm waiting for him to get back to me optimistically hoping that I'll still manage to beat the sales tax thing.

On Sunday I gave up and went to another dealer (Princeton VW/Audi) and my experience there was completely different from Hamilton, the dealer treated me like I was there to buy the most expensive car on the lot, when it came time to fill out a credit application not only was it free of charge, he told me that I shouldn't have given the other guy a dime, and he didn't try to sell me any more or any less than exactly what I wanted.

So now everything was great except I was short the $500.00 I paid Hamilton for the credit application. I called up the Hamilton guy and got his voicemail and explained the situation and asked for my money back. Still didn't hear back from him, so I sent an e-mail (remember this guy is supposed to be their internet sales manager) and I still didn't hear back. So then I contacted American Express, because no scumbag pushy car salesman is going to cheat me out of my money. That's the end of my story, to sum it up:

If you're buying a VW in central jersey don't go to Hamilton VW because they are douche bags. Do go to Princeton VW though, those guys are awesome and don't leave you waiting around so they can whore themselves out to someone who looks like they have more money than you.

Regards,

Dawud"

There will also be a note in the suit for the Sheriff about Gentile's outstanding arrest warrant for disorderly conduct and phone harassment. Which brings up something they never told you while suckling Law and Order from the boob tube. Just because you have a warrant out on you doesn't mean you're going to be hauled away by the police any time soon.

Oh and by the way, all those ALL CAPS, all defensive comments under Mark's login? Those were from his wife, who took your comments very seriously. There's a joke about women driving your comments login that we are very most certainly not making. Good luck, Mark, may you find satisfaction.

Mark had some friends call Naperville Toyota to let them know the complaint was on The Consumerist. Reportedly, the annoyed lady on the phone said, "one unhappy customer will not hurt us."

Since appearing here, Mark has received inquiries from area newspapers, included the Chicago Tribune. He also plans on filing on lawsuit and is speaking with a lawyer this weekend.

His outrage so hot and fierce, we were not originally able to put up Mark's whole complaint, with the squirrely financing details and all. The letter is now posted in it's entirety after the jump...

But in case you're missing one of those criterion, let me point your attention to an excellent new blog by Earl Stewart, a Florida Businessman and car dealership owner. There's a lot of good nuggets of common-sense advice here. For example, here's an interesting insider's insight on the "really big discount":

The "really big" discount"... Federal law requires new cars to have a price sticker on the window named the Monroney label. A discount from this suggested retail price gives you a fair basis for comparison. Unfortunately, most car dealers today, increase the suggested retail price substantially with the use of an addendum to the Monroney sticker often referred to as a "Market Adjustment Addendum". This "adjustment" can be several thousands of dollars. Be sure you know what the asking price is for the car when you have been offered a "big discount".

We're interested in hearing about any other decent resources to help prospective car buyers avoid a quivering Car Salesman's mushroom in their colon, so if you got 'em, feel free to let us know.

Earl Stewart on Cars

One of the assumptions of modern consumption is that if you buy something you don't like, you get to return it. You also assume that the salesman isn't going to write your wife's name on the bathroom wall and say she willing to have sex for money. Both of those assumptions, and more, proved not true for Mark when after he bought a Prius from Toyota of Naperville, IL.

It's bad enough that the salesman, Jim Gentile, committed outright fraud on Mark's car financing. But then after Mark complained and tried to return the car, not only was he subject to more bilking and his efforts rebuffed, his wife started receiving lewd phone calls from people who said they found her name and number on a hooker website. A phone trace revealed the phone numbers harassing Mark's wife belonged to one Jim Gentile.

When Mark called the dealership to confront Jim, he found that Mr. Gentile no longer worked there. He worked for Pontiac and was promoted to manager.

A warrant is out out for Jim's arrest for phone harassment and disorderly conduct but Mark's thirst for justice is not slaked. He demands restitution from Toyota Corporate.

Anatomy of a sleaze bucket, after the jump...

[Ed. Mark's letter is too long to post in its entirety, so we're just printing the parts that have to do with the harassment.]

After trying to return his car and being told by the manager to "get that car off his lot" before he called the tow truck and had it impounded, Mark reports:

"I received a call on my wife's phone, the number was blocked. A man with an east Indian accent asked if my car was for sale claiming "there was a web site for losers who could not pay for their cars" and that my name was on it with a Prius for sale. The voice would not state their name so I hung up. This was the first of MANY bizarre calls surrounding our purchase.

During that month the content of the bizarre blocked incoming phone calls changed. They used to be at random times with the same male "east Indian" voice claiming to be Toyota corporate or Toyota finance, the calls were about paying for the car. Some were threatening, saying if we did not pay for the car we would lose our house at 1088 Heritage Hill Rd (that address is an apartment). The newer calls were directed to my wife Angela, the voice said there was a website stating she would have sex for money. My wife was absolutely horrified and demanded identification when none was given she hung up. These types of phone calls kept coming in, each one more disgusting than the previous.

The nasty phone calls continued at random times until April 21st when my wife received 5 blocked incoming calls in 1 day. All of them were sexually suggestive and vulgar in content. We called the Winnebago Sheriffs and had an officer sent to our residence to file a report. We had a sneaking suspicion that Jim Gentile was the person behind the telephone voice. The call about losing our house in Naperville came after we had moved to Rockford, but our phone number and old address were on paperwork filed with Toyota. The officer took some information and suggested we file charges for harassment and disorderly conduct. We went down to the Sheriffs office and filed charges, we waited the 48 hours necessary to complete filing a charge, then we finalized it. Monies from tax return allowed us to finally retain a lawyer. After discussing the case with the lawyer he said we had a clear case of fraud. He was intrigued by the phone calls and stated that it would be interesting if we could find out about the phone calls and Jim Gentile.

"We subpoenaed our phone records since phone representative said as long as the phone was answered by a human, the calls could be traced. The records could only be obtained for 45 day prior to request. It took a few days for the information to come in; when it arrived we went over all the numbers. The records showed two different numbers repeatedly calling Angela's on April 21st. We did not recognize the numbers so we called each as a test. One I called was answered by a male voice, I asked if this was Bob and a familiar voice said that I had the wrong number. I quickly asked if this was Jim, the voice said "yes this is Jim". I hung up and tried the other suspicious number and listened to a message stating "this is Jim Gentile; I'm not able to answer....." Now I had proof that it was our Toyota salesman harassing us over the phone through a course of over four months. He had obviously been reprimanded or possibly fired over his fraudulent actions. I called Toyota of Naperville and asked for Mr. Gentile. They said "he no longer works here he was promoted and now works for Pontiac"."

"I deserve some comeuppance for mental, physical, and monetary stress including destroyed credit which is a direct result of a soured business dealing with Toyota Motor Corp."

"As of June 14th, 2006 Winnebago County States Attorney Issued a warrant for the arrest of Mr. Gentile for phone harassment, and disorderly conduct."

It's long and there's too much good stuff to quote, but here's the bottom line: When you walk into a dealership, just remember that every single person you talk to is going to do everything they can to take every last penny they can get out of you. They might pay lip service to 'customer loyalty,' but EVERYTHING is motivated by profit.

Here's another great bit:

After you've set a target price and written your message, find the "quick quote" tab on the edmunds site. Send out a request for info to any dealership within about an hour or so from where you live. When I did it, I provided them with a temporary e-mail address and a fake phone number.

Boy, am I glad I did.

What occurred next was nothing short of an communications onslaught. Every dealer (I sent messages to 11) sent me at least 1 email, and the average was two or three. In one round of messages, I accidentally used my real phone number; every single one called me. Be prepared... when these sharks smell the blood of a car buyer (especially one in a hurry), they get scary.

If you're looking to throw your flesh amongst the hucksters, you might make this your Bible.

How To Buy A Used Car [Metafilter]

"CHICAGO, April 24 — The Citizens Utility Board (CUB) Monday issued a consumer alert, warning utility customers to beware of a natural gas supplier that is going door-to-door using misleading sales tactics to convince consumers to lock in gas prices for the next five years."

Several of these gassers have showed up on tipster Nancy's doorstep. She writes on her blog, "One kept calling me, "Stupid, Stupid" loud enough to for neighbors to hear, when I refused to sign-up. Another told me that gas prices were not subject to supply and demand, so prices would only go up if I didn't lock in prices." Furthermore, the salesman try to "[pass] themselves off as utility employees and trying very hard to enter my house. These were big guys, pushy guys who when I refused the offer demanded to talk to my husband about it and tried to push past me."

A spring-loaded stoop may be in order.

Read more: Consumer Alert For Chicago Area Natural Gas Users

Previously: A Long Con Doesn't Go Very Far thread

Here's a roundup, thanks mainly to reader Jim, of other watchdog articles tracking the besmirched hatbands of these porch Johnnies. The articles refer to Direct Energy, another reseller using similar methods as US Energy.

• Overview article from 2002 about door-to-door energy resellers and their unscrupulous tactics.

• Direct Energy Fined over forged electricity contracts

• Province told of Direct Energy consumer concerns in U.S.

• From Texas to Ontario, energy consumers have been stung.

• Direct Energy says it reacts to consumer complaints swiftly

• Alberta government welcomes Direct Energy!

Previously: A Long Con Doesn't Go Very Far thread