im in the NJ so im fully within my rights to record my phone

"It's not my problem that the customer service representative might not have taken my statement seriously."

Uh, I'm not so sure about that. If I lived in a jurisdiction that frowned on recording calls without two-party consent (which I don't) I wouldn't like to have to explain to the judge why my actions weren't intended to trick or deceive the other party into giving consent (which, in most places, means the consent isn't valid).

1) Only necessary in states that require the consent of both parties.

2) Why not just say you're recording the call? Are you really recording this for training? Why make it up, just say you're recording it and move on.

I am also curious, is there any way that a company could restrict whether or not these lowly client facing employees are authorized to give consent to call recording?

Are you not covered when their recording plays telling you that the call may be monitored or recorded? I would assume that street runs both ways? When their recording plays both parties are notified (the call center rep is informed of this upon being hired)and you can start your recording.

Seems to me that technique would work at least most of the time. You have to get it out there right away, before the CSR gets their bearing.

Besides on-the-cheap software to do such things, I recently bought a nice & very tiny digital recorder from Amazon (Olympus WS-300M 256 MB Digital Voice Recorder), as well as one of those in-ear mics that's used for recording phone conversations. I mostly bought mine for use in recording song ideas and lyrics that come to me while I'm driving or whatever, but it'd be super handy for use on CSR's when needed.

This is fucking ridiculous. Lying to a CSR & then possibly having to explain yourself later in court? Talk about low.

I've always state "this call may be recorded" as soon as something-- ANYTHING-- answers the phone on their side. If they can have a computer legally state this to me, without any knowledge or understanding that there is a human being on the other side actually listening, I figure I can put it right back at them.

As for their assumption that if I placed the call I must be listening, all I have to say is "call center auto-dialers."

@enm4r:

"why not say that you are recoding the call?"

....Because they wont let you continue the call if they know they are being recorded. Its often company policy not NOT consent to being recorded by a customer calling in. Its just another way to keep the customer at a disadvantage by a company.

@enm4r: 2) Why not just say you're recording the call? ... just say you're recording it and move on.

Because nearly all CSRs have very strict instructions to immediately terminate the call if the caller indicates their are recording. It is one more way to make sure the business holds all the cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the call center tells the customer that the call may be recorded, doesn't that also give the customer the right to record the call? The CSR is aware that the call is being recorded, and the customer is aware, so does it really matter who is doing the recording?

I've always wondered why one can't argue that the recording saying "this call may be recorded..." is in itself granting permission to record. I'm baffled by how they can record but I cannot.
I'm not sure on the post b/c if you say it may be recorded for training, then could you not only legally use it for training? A better idea could be to record their message, then play it back as soon as they pick up, and the csr may think there is a system issue and not pay any attention at all.

Most customer service calls begin with "This call may be recorded for traning etc..."
I've always taken this to mean that _I_ may record the call as well.

@schwnj: Damn, that's nice. I'm pretty sure that argument would hold up in court as well.

I mean, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

@jak312: @nctrnlboy: I've only done it a few times, and by no means feel I have the method down, but the few times I've just interrupted their intro paragraph with an audible "this call is being record" and then immediately start with "Hi __________" and continue with my problem there has never been a second guess.

I just suspect that something like this wouldn't hold up if you're just using it as a ploy. If yuo want to trick them or say it fast before they really are mentally prepared then do so, but lying to them seems a sure way to invalidate the recording.

Also, thinking about state laws, how does this work with call centers that use a toll free number?

We can't really be sure of location, or even if the location is US based. Always safest to have both parties consent, but in reality, how would that play out with interstate regulations guiding the matter?

I'm not sure this would pass muster in the unlikely event that you are held accountable for making the recording.

Most wiretapping statutes have language to the effect that both parties "must be aware of the recording and consent".

With this technique, I am not sure that the other party either: 1. actually knows you're recording; and 2. consents to the recording.

To the person who asked "Why don't you just tell them you're recording?", the answer is simple, with this technique they really DON'T know you're recording, they think you're telling a joke.

I'm sure the FBi and the police have better things to do than throw consumers in prison for recording a phone call. Good grief. Just record the damn call.

@Cowboys_fan: I'd do the same. If any attorney tried to argue, I'd just say "Your system said that the call may be recorded, so you told me that it was okay. I would have deleted the recording if I hadn't gotten that permission."

"Can I do this?"

"Yes, you may."

@schwnj: I want to say there is a Consumerist post stating that what you say is true but I'm too lazy to look for it.

@enm4r: Some states (eg Nevada) only require consent on the part of ONE party on the phone. So it doesn't matter where the other side is if you are in Nevada (or whichever other states have this law).

So just call the centers while on your Vegas vacation.

@Crazytree: Obviously they don't know, which is why I doubt it'd be accepted as consent. Seems to me this is a worthless practice and you're no closer to consent than if you just recorded the call and said nothing. Hence if you want consent, you're goign to have to inform them. Sure it might be stacked against you, but I'm sure there are easier ways to trick them to consent without blatantly lying.

If they are calling you, go ahead and tell them it's being recorded and record it.

But if you really want something done and you want a record of it, write a letter. You can say so much more in a letter. Also, if you are truly paranoid (and want some serious attention paid to your concerns) send it certified, return receipt requested.

For all the people who think they are fine because their state's law allows recording of calls with single-party consent, that flies out the window as soon as your call crosses state lines. In fact, the telephone is an "instrument of interstate commerce," so it might not even matter whether your call crosses state lines. Federal law is supreme where interstate commerce is concerned, and I am pretty sure that federal law requires consent of both parties (but I might be wrong).

Just make sure your phone service is with AT&T/SBC. They'll record your calls anyway.

I always let my customers record sales rep conversations or advertising development conversations. We've weeded out a few bad apples in our company and it's thanks to the customers. My company doesn't offer refunds, so we kiss customer ass, big time. If a customer asked that I barked like a dog, I'd say, "Which breed would would you like?"

State-by-state summaries of wiretapping and eavesdropping laws: [www.rcfp.org]

While I don't exactly do customer service, I do work at a call center (I do 411 info for one of the major telecoms) We are told - and frankly, I fully agree - that if someone says they're recording the call, even as a joke, we refuse to continue the call and hang up. We don't record calls at all, namely due to the fact that we take over 8000 calls a day. So this wouldn't fly at all with us.

I record them without telling them. I don't care what the laws say: they're CSR and I've been told BS from CSR people in the past. The last thing I'm gonna do after being on hold for 10 minutes to get to a human being is risk being hung-up on the second I say I'm recording the conversation. They record mine, and the disclaimer doesn't mean shit: if you refuse to be recorded all you can do is hang up, which is essentially saying "we're recording this conversation, or you can f**k off." That's hardly a choice.

In my state, PA, it says that all parties must consent. Is informing them enough to pass consent? I guess that works in reverse too, I don't normally consent to the recording of calls.

For Texans, as long as one party being recorded is aware of the recording (you), it's legal to record any conversation.

BTW, if you use a Treo, might I recommend CallRec.

Couldn't you also just say 'This call is being recorded?' in a questioning tone rather than a statement-esque tone?

Not sure if that would do it, but it seems like it would...

Speaking of which, I sure wish I'd had the forethought to record my previous experience with Lenovo when trying to return a thinkpad. Lenovo lied to me, and I would LOVE to have had that on tape.

([www.ripoffreport.com])

The courts generally don't take kindly to such trickery. The Consumerist really shouldn't be giving legal advice to people, especially bad legal advice. If I take your advice and get in trouble, The Consumerist and Gawker Media could end up in legal heat of their own, when I sue them for giving bad advice.

It's great to fight back against bad corporations, but don't stoop to their level (or below).

@JRuiz47: That's one of the things I like about Texas. That, and I can shoot my shotguns in my back yard if I feel like it... but that's a whole different conversation. ;)

i, as well, have agonized over this issue and here are some thoughts that i have had in the past regarding this. would love to hear what the fellow readers at consumerist think about them:

1. if the call is recorded for training purposes, can it be used for any other purposes such as against the consumer in a judicial proceeding ?

2. if yes, conversely cannot the consumer use the same recording that the company made to their advantage in a judicial proceeding - by subpoena-ing that call recording from the company ?

3. those state/federal regulations that "dont allow unconsented recordings" - what are the extent of limits of use of such recordings ? Are they simply disallowed in a court of law or are they illegal for ANY use, period ? I mean, if disallowed in court of law, there is still the court of public, where they can be used - such as blogs, internet, consumerist.com - with potentially more devastating effects for the corporation. we have seen other recordings in the past such as "verizon math" appear on the internet which were probably unconsented.

4. how about journalistic protections to such unconsented recordings ? we do see consumer oriented tv shows and tv programs where the journalist uses footage of video recording or audio phone call recording in the program - which also seems highly unlikely to have been consented.

5. finally, i am not confident that the method shown here also is going to work. a judge, after hearing the recording, is likely to rule that the consumer's statement is indeed jestful, hence the recording was obtained in bad faith, and hence illegal/unallowable.

Let me pig pile on this with everyone else who thinks this is a bad idea. Being coy with something like recording of conversations is not a good idea. Aside from the trouble that you may, or may not get into, any competent lawyer can get a tape procured under these circumstances excluded from the evidence. Also, if I were representing one of these call centers, I would drop a dime on the taper with the relevant state attorney general and district attorney's office.

For all the folks that keep saying, "I am in state _______, that says only one party has to know, so I am good." I am pretty sure that you have to consider the laws/states of both parties. I seem to remember that if you're calling a 2-party state then it doesn't matter where you're calling from, although I guess they can only prosecute you in the other state.

Has anyone tried opting out of a recording? For instance, you get the old "This call may be recorded for quality control purposes" and follow it up with...

You: "Excuse me, what state are you calling from?"

Rep: "Illinois"

You: "Ok, in that case, I am not giving consent for you to tape this call, which you need to proceed any further. Please turn off the recording device, and when you're done you can tell me what you want."

I mean, if they're calling you, you'd think that they'd be forced to stop taping. I'd be curious to know what happens.

All I know is that if "one party consents" in Alaska, the call may be recorded; as in, if I know I'm being recorded by them, I'm pretty sure I can, myself, record in response.

In a 'court-of-law' case, you can probably just subpoena their recording; I would not consider using my recording for such purposes, but rather for raising press hell, something most corporations fear far more.

@Ohm2k:
I was wondering that myself. It usually says something along the lines of "this call may be recorded for quality assurance or training pruposes." So as long as I am recording it to assure that I receive quality customer service, havent I received their OK to do so?

Also...

" The federal law makes it unlawful to record telephone conversations except in one party consent cases which permit one party consent recording by state law."

I take that to mean that if I tape a call (from Arizona, a 1 party consent state) between me and some company in Illinois (a 2 party consent state), then Federal law takes precedent, and I am in the clear.

The common policy that an employee hang up if you notify them that you are recording is absurd. It's a tacit admission of guilt. They are basically saying "We know that our CSRs may be full of crap and we want don't want you to be able to prove it."

Seems to me that letting people record these calls would help keep people honest on both ends. No more CSR saying "I'll do this for you" and then denying it later. No more customer saying "The person I talked to before said they would do this for me."

Trying to scam permission like this is not likely to get you too far. It's also a little bit counter-Consumerist - Consumerist takes businesses to task for trying to sneak things past people. The standards should be the same wherever possible.

I have read elsewhere that for people in 2-party consent states, if you record the "This call may be monitored..." message, you may be in the clear since the message indicates their consent and your staying on the line indicates your own.

here is a good resource for the legality, state-by-state, for recording.

[www.rcfp.org]

@Lyrai: I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to record 411 info though.

okay - so we've established recording the call and using it is probably not a good legal idea -

but what if you record the call (not informing anyone) then make a typewritten transcription of that call - would be legal.. ? since you are really transcribing an actual event. If there is any dispute in the transcript you could subpoena the company's "training tapes"

Just found sound recording software that can be used for phone call recording and monitoring, radio broadcasts logging, spying, employee monitoring and so on. It's Sound Snooper.

@ NCTRNLBOY

....Because they wont let you continue the call if they know they are being recorded. Its often company policy not NOT consent to being recorded by a customer calling in. Its just another way to keep the customer at a disadvantage by a company

That's not always true, I worked for DirecTV and it's company policy to continue the conversation when they ask us if they can record the call. "We have nothing to hide in our procedures, just continue normally".

Geez, how many CSR calls end up in the legal system? This sure sounds like much ado about nothing.

Instead of talking in general terms about this why don't we look at a specific case from say... my state!

Here is the relevant WA state code:

Wash. Rev. Code § 9.73.030: All parties generally must consent to the interception or recording of any private communication, whether conducted by telephone, telegraph, radio or face-to-face, to comply with state law. The all-party consent requirement can be satisfied if "one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted." In addition, if the conversation is to be recorded, the requisite announcement must be recorded as well.

Now, if I am reading this right (cue lawyers stage left) it means that since the automated CSR will have "announced to all other parties" that the call is recorded.

Am I missing something here?

It is probably worthwhile to check your own state laws but if other laws are similar than maybe this is not such an issue for everyone.

[www.rcfp.org] - State by state laws.

[www.callcorder.com] - More info. Federal stuff too.

One of the many, many reasons to have one law for one country.

Why oh why would anyone do any different.

Man, it almost sounds like some of you WANT customers and CSRs to be mortal enemies...

I'm a CSR for a high-end furniture company, and I have been recorded by customers in the past. I'm not thrilled about that fact, but I also have nothing to hide; I'll stand behind every word I've ever said to a customer. With that said, if you record me and I find out, you can bet I'll note it for the next CSR who talks to you, as well as my supervisors.

And while I can't speak for any other companies, the one I work for records EVERY call in every department. It keeps us honest, and it helps keep our customers honest (I see several fraudulent orders a day). But personally, I don't care, record me if you like.

For training and security purposes all telephone calls may be monitored or recorded.

That is what my answering machine at home says. Doesn't stop telewhores from leaving messages.