Consumerist
The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act starts out this way:
There is abundant evidence of the use of abusive, deceptive, and unfair debt collection practices by many debt collectors. Abusive debt collection practices contribute to the number of personal bankruptcies, to marital instability, to the loss of jobs, and to invasions of individual privacy.One of the things debt collection leads to that is missing to the FDCPA's introduction is this: suicide.
It doesn't happen "all the time," but it does happen, sadly enough. The "credit card nation" documentary, Maxed Out, interviews several families of debt-related suicides, and talks with debtors who have seriously considered taking their own lives.
Indeed, death can be the only way out of debt, especially in the wake of the credit-industry-driven revisions to the bankruptcy code, BAPCA. Indeed, as recently seen here 20% of Americans think they will never escape debt.
The recent MacDermid decision from the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals reads like a heartbreaking tale of debt collection gone wrong. Debt collectors working in-house for Discovery (thereby saving Discover from FDCPA claims), allegedly threated Ms. MacDermid with (among other things) jail time, going so far as to make up a relationship with the local prosecutor's office. Here is what they said, according to the decision:
- had spoken with a lady named "Harriott" who had told her that, under the facts described above, Mr. MacDermid is legally liable for his wife's charge card; and
- that she had filed a report with the Giles County Sheriff's office; and
- that Harriott Barkly of the Giles County District Attorney's office, advised her that because the MacDermids were married, and because Mr. MacDermid was aware of his wife's problem, he "should keep a better eye on her" and should "keep her away from the internet"; and
- [that Adonica Gilmore stated about Mrs. MacDermid,] "I don't think you want her going . . . well you know"; and
- that there was no need for him to talk to a lawyer, because, even though there was no signature, and it was procured on the Internet, Mrs. MacDermid's application is binding on Mr. MacDermid, and he is definitely liable; and
- that [Adonica Gilmore stated], if the matter could not be resolved, "I'll just call Harriott" . . . and have the authorities "take a little trip out to your house."
These lies convinced Ms. MacDermid she had no choice but to take her life to save her husband from the debt she racked up.
In law, you take your "victim" as you find them. Ms. MacDermid was bipolar, but that was not her fault. That is why the Sixth Circuit found that Discover's debt collection constituted "outrageous conduct," and that Mr. MacDermid could therefore sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
You can read about the MacDermid case in more detail at Caveat Emptor, or read the case, complete with Ms. MacDermid's suicide note, yourself. — SAM GLOVER
Comments
So not only did he get out of all the debt she racked up, but now he'll get rich by suing them?! Wow! I guess her plan worked.
Maybe it's just because it is Friday, but that headline made my head hurt.
@Toof_75_75: You truly are an asshole.
@Toof_75_75: You truly are an asshole.
I second that. That was one of the most heartless comments I've read in a while.
@Fuzz:
You're right. How's this one?
That debt collectors words are actually pretty tame in comparison to most. I had one suggest I sell my dog to help my dad pay his medical bill.
Oh, and I agree that Toof_75_75 is an asshole.
Come on, you guys are offended by his statement, he held back the standard "and he doesn't have to be with/look at/get nagged by/ eat her cooking etc..."
@Toof_75_75: Does that invalidate her debt? I would assume if they were trying to hold her husband liable for the debt while she was alive (if that had any validity to it), then he'd still be liable for the debt after she passed.
That's the primary reason I have life insurance right out of college - my father is a co-signee on all my student loans, so Sallie Mae can get their money no matter what...
Because the husband never signed up for the credit cards and never used them, he was never liable for the debt.
[Consumerist crosspost] The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act starts out this way: There is abundant evidence of the use of abusive, deceptive, and unfair debt collection practices by many debt collectors.
@Toof_75_75:
I think Toof's assholity is funny.
@Sam Glover:
Nice.
@Toof_75_75: F*ckin' jerk! Eat sh*t!!!
A collector once told my mom she shouldnt have had children if she couldnt afford her bills.
@Sam Glover: I'm not totally sure he is out of the woods. Wouldn't her estate be liable after her death? And wouldn't her estate include some of the property they own as a married couple? I am not an estate lawyer, but I think that some of his property could be at risk. Anyone with more experience out there care to chime in?
@FatLynn: I'm not an estate lawyer, either, so I really don't know how whether he may be damaged in probate. It could very well be that some of the marital property is affected.
@traezer: Nice.
@Slytherin:
Classy!
I'm going to go ahead and say I think iMike was about the only one who could see into the satiric nature (see also "assholity") of my statement.
@Toof_75_75: It can be difficult to tell when someone's being sarcastic or when someone's just a troll. I don't get it even when reading it sarcastically.
The debt collectors in question are going to the Special Hell.
From the case pdf, page 10:
Although it appears from the record that the on-line application listed Mr. MacDermid as the primary cardholder ad Mrs. MacDermid as an authorized buyer...the exact contours of their contractual obligations to Discover (whether individually or as a couple) remain somewhat unclear to us, at least at this stage in the proceedings."
The problem is that there isn't anything illegal in the way she obtained the cards. That's the basis for the husband's claim, namely that they threatened to hold her criminally liable for the debt. He said he wasn't responsible for the debt, but he also didn't file a fraud claim, so I think he's in weird territory.
It's worth opening the pdf if only for the last paragraph, which editorializes a bit on the lameness of credit card practices.
How mentally weak does a human being have to be to let a DEBT COLLECTOR drive them to suicide? Have these people been living perfect lives, in houses with white picket fences, and never faced adversity?
I'm tired of pussified society nowadays, from the Starbucks lady who was crying about a religious comment on her coffee cup, to this lady trying to make money by fabricating this story to file a lawsuit.
I hang up on debt collectors. Who cares about getting out of debt? Millionaires and billionaires have debt. The freakin' United States is in debt. As soon as you get out of debt you'll be back in it, so get over it.
Manage your money and these issues won't come up. (I'm not a debt collector, by the way)
hey how do I get a cool avatar like Sam Glover? :(
Oh, I just read it and she actually went through with it, which makes the whole thing even more sad and pathetic. I have absolutely no empathy and feel no sorrow for suicide victims, end of story.
@MisterMusante:
And they hassled me... lol
I tend to agree with you, though...I hate watching on TV when people "attempt" suicide...And then we coddle them and tell ourselves we "saved" them. When really, we just reassured them that if they need attention, they should go do something ridiculous and dangerous in public.
I sorta with Mr. Musante on this one. Sorta. A little.
Okay, really, just the first paragraph.
But, seriously, who lets this happen to them? It sucks that she was lied to, but still... kill yourself? over this? at the very, very, very least, before killing yourself, could she not have fact checked? Or, ya know, tried to take out a loan (putting herself in further debt elsewhere, sure, but at least switching who the money was for). Maybe talk to an accountant about other options? Honestly, wtf is wrong with someone to make suicide move this far up on the list of options? Actually, no, scratch that... why is suicide even on the list of options for dealing with debt?
@Crazytree:
It's in your personal options...You just upload a little picture. Go here: http://consumerist.com/profile/
@Toof_75_75:
Exactly.
I'm sure I'll get negative comments for my apathetic feelings toward this "tragedy", but after going through several tragedies myself, and knowing people who have had family pass away at an early age, failed pregnancies, failed marriages, failed businesses, failed everything, people who grew up with no parents, etc...debt is not something to pull your hair out over, much less kill yourself.
I have respect for people who have the mental fortitude to make it through tough times, not take the easy way out.
@jeffj-nj:
What part of "bipolar" do you not understand? It's a serious problem; someone in a depressive state is simply not able to be rational. Their brain is broken; they are unable to calmly consider their options as you or I would. They are an order of magnitude more likely to commit suicide than the general population.
@MisterMusante:
If the debt collector had scared her into a heart attack, would you criticize her for not having physical fortitude?
My understanding of the credit card rules is that, unless he presses fraud charges against her, he is liable for the charges. And although Discover pushed her over the edge, it sounds like they didn't have to do much. She had no sense of consequence when she got the cards, and when the consequence came up, she couldn't handle it. Of course, it was fictionally presented as being more dire than necessary, but it was still the consequence of her actions.
Also, didn't her husband NOTICE any of the stuff piling up in the house? Seriously.
@John Stracke: Okay, then. So she was psychologically more likely to have committed suicide than you or I. That sucks, and I feel bad for trivializing the situation down to just those two words, but it does. That sucks.
However, that said, doesn't that make the debt collectors all that much less to blame? I mean, if she was already closer to the edge than most, who knows what would've pushed her off. It just so happened to be this, but by the "she's mentally weaker" argument (which is undeniably sad - don't get me wrong), couldn't it just as easily have been something else?
My point is that "normal" people do not commit suicide over something as trivial as debt, so the collectors had no reason to assume she would.
@MisterMusante:Yeah, those darn bi-polar crazies. Why don't they just stop whining about the uncontrollable chemical imbalance in their brains and man up!
@jillian: The husband never signed an agreement, and he never made any charges on the accound. The burden would be on Discover to prove otherwise. There are a couple of reasons for this, starting with the fact that he has no control over whether or not the local prosecutor decides to bring criminal charges.
@jeffj-nj: ". . . doesn't that make the debt collectors all that much less to blame?"
In tort, which is what we are dealing with here, and in criminal law, you take your victim as you find her. If you punch someone with a thin skull, you are liable for whatever damage happens, whether you knew they had a thin skull or not. This is called the "eggshell plaintiff" or "eggshell skull" doctrine. Ms. MacDermid's bipolar disorder is the equivalent of an eggshell skull when it comes to emotional distress claims.
@traezer: But you actually shouldn't have children if you can't afford the bills. People always seem to forget this.
@jeffj-nj:
That is a good point. Legally, though, it may not matter, since you're responsible for harm you do even if it wasn't foreseeable.
@MisterMusante:
Actually, financial problems is a leading reason cited for suicide. It happens more often than you think. Between the self-inflicted guilt, the unbelievable pressure from collectors, lack of necessary funds, and a lack of knowledge of your rights, its not hard to see how this happens. Add to that pre-existing mental, physical, or marital problems and it gets worse. We just saw a stat on the Consumerist that 20% of debtors see no way out of debt, which sounds low to me, but whatever. Still, I think the biggest underlying problem is that people just don't know the truth - they don't know their rights. They don't know that a debt collector cannot have them arrested, or wages garnisheed, or home foreclosed on, or children taken away, or name tarnished on a a whim. And when the only person speaking is a full-of-BS debt collector, people unfortunately take it at face value.
Well, everyone should be concerned with getting out of debt. But millionaires? Read the Millionaire Next Door. The average millionaire hasn't had a car payment for 13 years. They got to where they are - on average - because they got out of debt and could actually build serious wealth. This idea that you'll always have debt is a falsehood. I don't give up that easily. The United States is in debt, and its sickening and stupid.
You're entitled to your opinion and lack of sympathy - I'm not challenging that. But this lackadaisical attitude about always being in debt is just weak.
@Rectilinear Propagation: not nearly soon enough >:{
points to worry about for the estate, too. i suspect it'll depend on various laws.
I had my ex-husband's cc company hounding me at my new employer for his late card. He'd opened it the month prior to our divorce being officially signed off on by the AZ court system, so DVFCU felt that was enough to come after me - joint property state. This after he tried to make payment arrangements; told them repeatedly I was never on it (I wasn't) & that I received no material bene's from the card or his usage of it. . . .
@Sam Glover: "This is called the "eggshell plaintiff" or "eggshell skull" doctrine."
*sues Sam for IIMD from unwanted flashbacks to 1L Tort class*
;)
Next can we tickle piano teachers with fragile ribs? Or was that not in everybody else's casebooks?
@MisterMusante:
come back and talk to me when you've had two members of your family commit suicide. Go suck a tail pipe, loser.
"A collector once told my mom she shouldnt have had children if she couldnt afford her bills."
But isn't that true?
"hypnotik_jello says: @MisterMusante:
come back and talk to me when you've had two members of your family commit suicide. Go suck a tail pipe, loser."
Classy.
I do not answer phone calls from numbers not in my phone's address book. I treat collection notices like toilet paper. If someone intends to collect a debt from me, they are politely informed that they can talk to my attorney. I'm not a scofflaw, I have probably no more than $600 in dubious "obligations" outstanding. I also have a credit rating well above 750. When you no longer fear something, it has no power over you.
Having been stuck in a bad debt situation and being diagnosed bipolar myself, I have some understanding of this. I managed to get myself out of the debt, but the calls day and night, the lack of sleep because all you think of is how to make it all better, it does nothing to help rational thought. I can tell you that I didn't get nearly close to these threats from collectors, but the incessant phone calls and the lack of help from the collectors made me start listing the solutions.
I was laid off, unemployed, collecting just enough to make my mortgage and keep my lights on and watching my debt increase as the late fees, overlimit fees and finance charges just increase the balances each month. Even if you're able to make some small payment, if it doesn't make that minimum, you're going to get hit with all those charges. It seems like an endless tunnel of despair that you just can't escape. And when it gets to that point, sometimes suicide seems like the ONLY way out.
I don't expect people who haven't been there to understand. You can't, you've never felt those emotions.
@MisterMusante:
Actually if you read the whole post you'll note that at the bottom it says she was bipolar, aka manic-depressive. In case you weren't aware, this is a serious psychiatric illness whose symptoms include both depression and impulsivity.
It's not at all uncommon for sufferers to make poor financial decisions when experiencing a manic episode, and they are also at a much greater risk of suicide than the general population.
Not the first time and most likely not the last. It's a shame...
How mentally weak does a human being have to be to let a DEBT COLLECTOR drive them to suicide?
I think you hit the nail on the head!
Mentally weak! Mentally infirm! By your words: This person's mind is weak, or, in this case specifically, this person's mind does not work correctly: my left arm is weak because of damage done to it in the past. It does not work correctly. This person's brain is weak for reasons unknown.
So.. while we will never know how weak or how strong the departed is or was... the answer is: at least that weak.
How I envy you and your fully functional brain. Mine doesn't work right. I spend a lot of my time depressed, and to make it worse, I additionally have a disease that that even fewer people believe in! ADD is a terrible illness, one that your average Joe honestly doesn't understand. My husband cannot understand why it is I am so twitchy or impatient, or how it is that I can play a game rabidly for 3 hours, then never touch it again. He doesn't understand so many of the mental quirks I have that are ADHD-typical. Just as I cannot understand how he and his brain work. And worse, most people tell me that I'm not actually 'sick', or that I can 'get over it' if I 'put my mind to it'. They don't understand.
I don't doubt that there are MANY people who are misdiagnosed with this illness, but there is no doubt in my mind that I am NOT one of those cases.
I don't know if my ADD was hereditary (possible. my father would seem to have it as well), or chemically induced. Yes, many ADD cases are actually mild cases of BRAIN DAMAGE. Often through usage of toxins (alcohol, drugs, etc) or physical trauma while in the womb or in early childhood. Yeah. My mom drank. My mom used drugs. I don't believe she stopped for 9 months just because of me.
Yet despite having most of the symptoms, despite medication working very well for me, despite dietary modifications improving me, despite the fact that I bucked up and found coping mechanisms of my own to go through middle and high school without medication... I am still told that I'm fine. that it's a made up illness. Ha.
Diseases and illnesses of the brain are very very real. Just because your legs work perfectly, doesn't mean that everyone's do. Just because you can benchpress an impressive amount doesn't mean I can. Just because you can't understand why someone would thing, or react in the way they did or do... doesn't mean it's not possible, or that these people should not be pittied, or mourned.
A threat is a threat. It doesn't matter if the threat was to go to jail or to make a few phone calls to their local 'buddies', and break your legs. it's still a threat.
Also, didn't her husband NOTICE any of the stuff piling up in the house? Seriously.
regarding this: from the pdf:
Mrs. MacDermid made numerous purchases using her Discover cards. These
purchases ranged from every day necessities such as gas and computer products to
exotic cats.
computer products are a box, if not just a download and nothing more "This? oh it's freeware." or "It was in the bargain bin at the store! isn't it fun?" Gas does't pile up. as for exotic cats... it's easy to say that he belonged to a friend, or was a gift, or some such.
Obviously her purchases were such that they were easily not noticed. To be fair, I could probably purchase items myself, and my husband wouldn't notice if I placed them 'out of the way'.
Or I could even go for the Lucy Ricardo method: Put it in the closet for several months, then pull it out and wear/use it. and when he asks where it came from say "This old thing? I've had it for months!"
@Sam Glover:
"n tort, which is what we are dealing with here, and in c