Consumerist
"My grandmother informs them once they are done that she will not be paying them any more money, and that this has gone to the states attorney's office. On hearing this, one of the installers gets on his cell phone and calls his boss. They talk, he hangs up and walks into the bathroom and proceeds to take off the tub door. He walks out of the bathroom with this door and my grandmother says what are you doing and grabs the door..."
For $15,000 That bathtub better be coated in gold, and dispense liquid chocolate. Oh wait, it doesn't, and they didn't finish the job, and now the scam plumbers are leaving harassing phone calls and trying to steal doors and parts from the work site.
Hello,Premier Bathrooms is an international manufacturer with sales offices around the world and different regions within the US. The grandmother could have protected herself better by comparison shopping in advance to see what would have been a reasonable price to pay. That way she would know it wasn't a good deal at 15k or 13k. However, the salesman probably played on her fears of her husband being sent back to hospital in order to rush her into the contract. Mrs. Green's experience may be limited to one rogue sales office, but that doesn't mitigate its nastiness. Shame upon thee, Premier Bathrooms of Illinois. There's a special place in hell for those who try to rip off old people. It has no working plumbing.My name is Dawn Green, and I'm writing on behalf of my grandparents. My 83 year old grandfather was hospitalized for 21 days and was told he would have to go to a nursing home if his bathroom wasn't fitted for his needs( he has Parkinson's). In a panic, my grandmother contacted Premier bathrooms after seeing television ads and ads in the VFW newsletter.
They sent out a salesman who knew of their situation, and he told them if they signed up that day, he would knock off $2000.00 to make the total $15,259.00. My grandmother did this as she didn't want my grandfather to go to the nursing home. She paid $5000.00 by certified check that day, and was told another $5259.00 would be due when the tub arrived. It arrived on August 27th, 2007 and on the next day the installers came out. They ripped out the existing tub and started to do the plumbing for the new one. After they had left that evening, my grandparents thought something looked funny so they had a family friend who is a licensed plumber come take a look at it. He said this is all wrong, and he called the plumbing inspector to take a look. The inspector showed up the morning of August 29th, 2007, and asked the installers to show him their licenses, and they had none, so he shut them down. One of these installers went into the bathroom and stole a drain part to stop the new plumber from finishing the job. The inspector called and threatened them that if this part was not there the next day, he would be filing charges with the police. It arrived the next day.
In the meantime, the licensed plumber finished the plumbing portion and my grandfather came home from the hospital with a catheter, and they had to wait until September 17th, 2007 to get the installers back to thier house to finish. This installation was supposed to take 2 days, it should have been done on August 29th.
They show up on September 17th, and started finishing this, my mother had contacted the Illinois States Attorney General's Office, and the advocate tells them DO NOT pay the last $5000.00, you have been overcharged. My grandmother informs them once they are done that she will not be paying them any more money, and that this has gone to the states attorney's office. On hearing this, one of the installers gets on his cell phone and calls his boss. They talk, he hangs up and walks into the bathroom and proceeds to take off the tub door. He walks out of the bathroom with this door and my grandmother says what are you doing and grabs the door. They have a tug of war over it and my mother intervenes and tells him to leave or she is calling the police. He leaves the house and goes into their garage and my mom follows him and says I told you to leave, and he starts sweeping the garage floor. She tells him again and he finally says fine and gets in to the truck and takes off.
September 18th, 2007. Now the phone calls start. This company is calling saying they are in breach of their contract, and it needs to be settled. My grandmother informs them they should take it up with the states attorney's office and hangs up. This job was to be done in 2 days, per the contract, so they are in breach on their end as well. There have been more phone calls and my grandmother has filed phone harassment charges with the local police.
I honestly hope that something can be done to prevent other elderly or disabled people from being taken advantage of like my family has.
Comments
Old people get scammed? Go figure...
Scary that they can just fork over 15k without even shopping around. I don't have that kind of scratch.
Its disgusting when i see elderly people getting taken advantage of. Shame on them is right! With so many elderly that are sent to rot in Nursing homes until they die, this lady actually desperately needed these peoples help, and they played on that. Greed is going to kill this country (more than it already has).
@joeblevins: She might not have had $15,000 but that might have still been cheaper than paying for the man she loves to live far away from her in a nursing home.
He leaves the house and goes into their garage and my mom follows him and says I told you to leave, and he starts sweeping the garage floor.
He decides to sweep? WTF?
I wonder if they've even tried talking to the Attorney's Office or if they think they can scare them into paying.
@joeblevins: They almost certainly would have shopped around if she hadn't panicked over her husband being put in a nursing home but she obviously felt this was an emergency.
@Rectilinear Propagation: Hmmm...that reads like I think she overreacted which isn't what I meant to say.
there needs to be a law about people without licenses having to go to jail for performing work (or pay a huge fine) and the people who hire them having to suffer double. IT IS THE ONLY WAY THIS PRACTICE WILL CEASE.
Sure was a ripoff. We spent 10k to redo our bathroom, and that involved tearing everything out down to the studs and sub floor, and putting in all new everything. Everyone involved has a spot reserved in the deepest circle of hell for this.
I don't see where the company's completely evil here. Yeah, maybe they quoted high, but it was an honest quote. Old people need to be smarter and shop around, even when they're stressed (this goes for people of all ages when dealing with the funeral business, too, for example).
This story's *really* about: (1) company used unlicensed plumbers; (2) company didn't finish the job per the contract. I'd like to see the contract, because I bet there's a clause relating to not being able to finish on time for various reasons, and it's obvious she's not savvy enough to have written a penalty clause into the contract for failure to perform by such and such date.
Don't be emotional -- this isn't about "old people"; the company used unlicensed plumbers, and the old lady didn't pay her bill per a legal contract. Shame on BOTH of them.
Wow. Fucking sick.
@BALTHISAR - I totally agree. It's not just old people who this happen to - it's the very large percentage of consumers who are completely uneducated from birth about comparison shopping, haggling, contracts, etc...and there are plenty of poor AND rich people, young AND old, who fall for crap like this because they don't know to cover their bases or are 'too busy.' The 'too busy folks,' it's their fault, but for the uneducated, it's not necessarily a crime to overcharge (though that is pretty bad, too) but to use the unlicensed, shoddy contractors who dont' finish the work.
So how much was she overcharged? If the states attorney knew how much it was suppose to cost, they couldn't get Premier Bathrooms to do the job at the "real" price?
Parents need to understand that kids don't magically develop an understanding of money and finance -- any more than they magically develop table manners. I'm an advice columnist and I got yet another letter last night from a guy whose 30-something daughters are clueless, and it's biting him in the ass now.
Not only are they scamming old people, their installers are immature and petty jerks. great company.
@newlywed: You make a good and correct point--if people don't want to or can't shop around and then agree to a price, then they should pay that price.
As someone tangentially tied to the industry, I know it can be common practice to quote a very high number to avoid getting the job (ie, the contractor saying that "it would cost us so much to do this work and hire the people that we'd need to charge more. no thanks, but we'll do it if you pay 50% more for that trouble we have to go through"). I know this isn't the case here, but it just shows that a lot can be saved through shopping around and using the right contractors.
Anyway, the real point is....once again...that they were using unlicensed contractors and the work wasn't being done on time or correctly.
@ScramDiggyBooBoo:
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
Greed is right.
Greed works.
Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Premiere Bathrooms, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
Thank you.
Over the years, my grandparents have shelled out ridiculous amounts of money for home repairs and the like. They usually consult us only AFTER money has changed hands. They want to retain some sense of independence and they don't want to "bother" us (Hello, they're NOT a bother! But they just don't seem to get that...) I think that's a typical attitude for a lot of elderly folks. They want to keep doing stuff on their own, but they're often living alone and their bodies are falling apart. And then some scammer comes along promising to take care of everything.
So how much can we blame the seniors themselves for their knee-jerk reactions? Age - especially old age - changes people. My once rock-solid Grandma recently stayed up the whole night sobbing...because the hosptial had made a minor billing error. When you're 84, everything is a crisis.
These scammers need to be treated like any other criminals. As far as I'm concerned, they're practically in the same league as pedophiles and wife-beaters. They're predators who take advantage of weakness.
@Amy Alkon: please tell us more about this guy and his 30 year old daughters. seriously, is he just an enabler (giving them money or bailing them out at every financial mistake)?
Who is the States Attorneys office to tell her she was overcharged? She agreed to a price, and while it might have been high, last time I checked the government didn't regulate how much a private company can charge for a bathtub. I think either the story has been mis-interpreted, or someone at the States Attorneys office spoke incorrectly. They don't really have the authority to tell someone not to pay what they are obligated under a contract. I think the States Attorneys office, if they really said that, was WAY out of line in getting involved. This was not a "scam". She contracted to get a bathtub, and she got one. The unlicensed plumber thing is another story, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have to pay. Additionally, I'm sure the contract does not guarantee that the work will be done by X date. The reality here is the elderly woman is in breach of contract for failure to pay, and if they take her to court, the bathtub company will probably win.
@newlywed:
In Florida contracting without a license is a felony. Punishable by fine and jail time.
@veraikon: Scammers? So, let me get this right.....Is the gas station on a busy corner that is charging 10c more a gallon a scam? The ATM from another bank charging you an extra fee? The drive through cleaners that wanted $20 for a suit while the mom and pop shop across the street was asking less than $10?
Are all of those scammers since they charge a higher price than needed? I'd say no....and if you shop around, you'll find that they charge more because a lot of people don't care about money and how much things cost. Just because they charge more than the standard/reasonable amount doesn't make them a scammer. That is why everyone should shop around for just about everything.
So, while it is clear they aren't scammers in that they overcharge (ps, that isn't what a scam generally consists of), I'll list a few underhanded moves they made to show you what they did do:
High pressure sales guy--dirtier than a car salesman.
Promise in an amazingly short install time--and knowing they wouldn't deliver.
Using illegal and unlicensed contractors.
There is nothing unusual about quoting a high price for services, and from what I know, it is standard practice for a firm to not finish services when they are told they won't be paid for the work.
@bradg33: She was probably told by the sate AG office that it was a high amount and paid too much.....and the family derived that they paid too much and that they didn't have to pay all of it if it was too high.
I don't think the state AG's office did get involved--I think they gave some off the cuff advice and got quoted, nothing more.
Elderly folks get scammed at a higher frequency than non-elderly folks. Hence, lawmakers make special laws protecting elderly folks against scams.
I have little sympathy for old folks who use their age as an excuse to be jerks, but I have even less sympathy for the people who scam old folks.
If the attorney general's office told them not to pay, you can be assured that there was some legality to their advice.
Whether or not Premiere Bathrooms gets their last $5,000, their actions were despicable, and deserve to be boycotted as the "contractors that like to scam old folks."
@BrockBrockman: "If the attorney general's office told them not to pay, you can be assured that there was some legality to their advice.".
That's a VERY dangerous assumption you are making. Just because who ever answered the phone in the AG's office said "Don't pay", which is doubtful to begin with, doesn't relieve them of their obligation under the contract they entered into knowingly and willingly. The buyer in this case is just flat wrong.
Alot of people on here are throwing around the words "scam" and "scammer", and I don't think very many have even the slightest clue as to its true definition. Scam, as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary, is "to defraud; swindle". In this case, there was no "fraud" and no "swindling". They did not promise to sell her something, take the money, and not provide. They did not take her money in some sort of investment scam, as many who scam the elderly do. They simply sold her a bathtub, the price of which may or may not have been high. A little research on the companies website shows these appear to be fairly specialized bathtubs. Typically a specialize product costs more than one purchased at Home Depot. Buyers remorse does not relieve one of their obligations under a contract. It's absurd that people seem to think that it's simply "ok" to decide you don't have to pay the full amount you agreed to because after the installation is done you determined you paid too much. Though I'm sure the crowd that is advocating that stance is the same one that does not understand the meaning of "personal responsibility". The fact they are elderly has no relevance here. They agreed to buy a bathtub, they got one, they think they paid to much. The only thing the company did wrong here was use unlicensed contractors.
I hope it all works out. I wish the elderly would have someone younger present before entering into these kind of agreements. Most seem too stubborn like my parents and I find out after they've spent way too much.
There is a special place in Hell for people that take advantage of the elderly.
I don't understand the appeal of the Premier Bathrooms "tub with a door" system. I imagine it's safer on some level in that one need not step out of a potentially slippery tub - but the downside is that you have to sit in lukewarm scungy bathwater until the thing drains completely so you can open the door. When my dad was sick I think that would have been far worse and uncomfortable for him than being assisted out of a standard tub.
I'm sorry, what bathtub cost $15,000? Does it sing me beautiful melodies and scrub my back for me? Is it coated in pure gold? Do I get a stripper on a pole with it? Does it come with a 50" (NO LESS) 1080p LCD TV? Unless I'm getting that, it ain't worth $15,000.
@Papa Midnight: It's not worth it to YOU, but that does not make it a scam. Do you think a Bentley is worth $300k?
@Sudonum: Sure it is! If every unlicensed contractor in Florida were prosecuted, the state would have to construct a new prison a month to house them all.
@bradg33: I'd say a Bentley's overpriced, but only by about 10-20%.
I'd also like to know what bathtub costs $15k. Having redone several $1M+ condos and installing some of the finest fittings available, I don't recall seeing one that expensive. The Aquatic spa-tubs with built in heaters top out around $6k. The Toto Neorest toilet tops out around $4k.
This is just like the last plumber story you guys posted. The consumer agreed to the price given because they felt their disability prohibited them from shopping around and being educated consumers. Then, in this one, consumer decides to wait until after the plumbers have finished the work to tell them they won't be paying. Who is swindling whom here? Of course the plumbers are going to try to take back parts, they feel they're being cheated.
If one of my clients calls me and asks for a quote, I always quote high, because you never know what problems might pop up. They agree to the quote, and usually pay some up front. If after I had finished the work, they said kthanx bye because their 15 yo. nephew said I was charging too much for a website he could do for them, I would be pretty pissed off if they tried to get out of paying me. That's what contracts are for. And you can bet, at the mention of them not paying in full, I'd be yanking my files out of their greedy hands.
If you agree to pay someone the price that they feel their time is worth, and you later decide it's not worth that much and don't pay - YOU are the scammer, not the person not getting paid for their work.
Sounds like a whole lot of problems compounded: a very expensive impluse buy, a company working (and apparently not very well) without a license, and customers and employees who aren't sure what the next step should be. What a sad mess!
Actually, it's not uncommon in contract disputes to withhold final payment until both parties are agree that the work has been completed to satisfaction. The fact of the matter is the company materially breached the contract by not providing licensed plumbers to do the necessary plumbing work. Since that work was done for the client from another plumber, probably at her own expense, she has every right to withhold payment. If Premiere Bathrooms believe they are in the right, they can file a case in Small Claims court to get the remaining balance owed. However, they would have to prove that they met their contractual obligations in order to prevail.
If they honestly believe they're in the right, they should litigate, and let all the facts come to light.
If you read the letter it was the unliscenced plumbers who were trying to swindle them. The plumbers business was shut down.
They didnt have to payt becuase the business was doing this illegally and the state told them to stop .They had no right coming back because the state themselves told them to stop.
Anyone know where at in Illinois this is? I have family in southern illinois and I happened to see an advertisement in one of my grandmothers' magazines the other night when we went to dinner. I don't want them to fall prey to this potentially. Now that I'm aware of it, I'm positive it won't happen. I just want to know to be sure they're not preying on people in my hometown area.
Thanks
B
@majortom1981: There was no swindling. It's also questionable whether or not they held themselves out to be licensed plumbers. The fact is they contracted to buy a shower, now they don't want to pay for it because they were told they were over charged. There is no mention of not paying because the work was not completed, no mention that they were not paying because of the unlicensed plumbers, and no mention of any other reason for not paying. The sole reason mentioned is that the states attorneys office told them the price was too high. I'm not saying some of those other reasons might not prove compelling in a dispute to not pay, but he only issue raised is that the "price was too high". Thats all we have to work with and we can't start assuming facts that have not been presented. Based on what was said, the consumer is wrong here.
@Instigator: Regardless of enforcement the fact is that you can do time for unlicensed contracting in Florida
[myflorida.custhelp.com]
"A person who is found guilty of unlicensed construction activity by a criminal court commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, which is punishable by either a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 1 year, or a fine of up to $1,000."
The contract was not met by both parties. The grandparents might have grounds for recovery of the initial $5000.
@Sudonum: So what? The law isn't effective if it isn't enforced, which it seldom is in Florida. Unlicensed contractors know it, too! That's why they've seemingly all moved here. Just read the Orlando Sentinel's consumer advocate's column. Most of the complaints are from people who have been victimized by unlicensed contractors.
She was over-charged. Then the labor was done by unlicensed plumbers and not up to code. Yes, this is shady. Hopefully she can recover her expenses in court.
This is the sort of thing that makes you wish public flogging would come back.