Consumerist
Caught somewhere between post 9/11 security concerns and personal rights is Cristina Bustos. According to the Palm Beach Post, her relatives from Mexico shipped her an envelope that contains the birth certificates for 2 of her relatives that live in Florida. But instead of receiving the envelope, Cristina, a legal resident, received a phone call saying that her envelope was being detained in Louisville and that "she needs to identify herself further before receiving them." Later, a UPS employee told Christina that she had to email a copy of her green card if she wanted to get her envelope. Details, inside...
The article says,
Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the U.S. government has been concerned about counterfeit documents being used for fraudulent purposes.
"She said the only way I could get it was to send her proof that I am a legal resident here," said Bustos, who works at a McDonald's in Fort Myers. "She wanted me to e-mail her a copy of my green card."
Bustos said she has lived in the United States for 15 years, became a legal resident and received her green card in 2002.
"I told her I thought that was ridiculous," Bustos said. "She represents a private company. She's not an agent for the immigration service, and I have no obligation to show her my immigration status.
"We paid to have those documents sent, and they should deliver them to us. There is nothing illegal in that envelope."
UPS claims that they are only following procedures outlined by the government which is trying to prevent counterfeit documents from entering the country that could potentially be used by illegals to gain citizenship or some other right. The article says,
"Many people are involved in sending fraudulent documents to the U.S. for the purpose of stealing identities," said Zachary Mann, spokesman for Customs and Border Protection in Miami.
Some attorneys have insisted that the procedure violates the U.S. Constitution's Fourth Amendment guarantee against "unreasonable search and seizure."
Customs officials disagree. They say there always has been an exception to that law: People at U.S. borders can be searched and belongings can be seized without the usual warrants and legal prohibitions.
Because the courier hubs are where international packages enter the country, they qualify for the border exception, the officials say. Airports also qualify, they contend.
It seems that UPS isn't doing anything illegal in asking her to "identify herself further," but do they have a right to know her citizenship status? Should the government be flagging 2 simple birth certificates over security concerns? Or should Cristina just roll over and get with the system? Let's hear your opinions, Consumerists.
Florida woman's fight with UPS touches nerve over security level [Palm Beach Post] (Thanks to Steven!)
(Photo: Maulleigh)
Comments
Quite frankly, if this is just a private company asking for a document so some office worker can push a button, I would probably forge it. That's pretty darn easy to do if they're asking for an email copy. But this is now in the public spotlight so it's too late to do anything that sneaky.
1. What if she was born here and didnt have a green card?
2. More funny: What if the package had actually contained her green card? My fiancee is from the UK and she said she received her green card via UPS.
3. What if this was total bullshit? Oh wait, it is.
Oh and:
"identify herself further," but do they have a right to know her citizenship status?...Or should Cristina just roll over and get with the system?"
My experience around these parts lead me to belive the community is going to tell her to shut up and show as much ID as they ask for.
If UPS thinks the contents of the package is suspect, they need to turn it over to law enforcement authorities, no different than if they suspected the package contained illegal drugs.
UPS has no law enforcement authority and is not qualified to evaluate what is or is not "valid" identification. Furthermore, and emailed copy does not prove authenticity.
If the woman really wants to be tough, she could demand that UPS contact law enforcement authorities to investigate the contents of the package and her.
Of course, realistically, fax or email the 'proof' to satisfy an arbitrary UPS clerk, then perhaps contact Gloria Allred. Practice crying on cue first.
What an interesting country we are becoming.
This anti-immigrant vigilanteeism will cost UPS money. My wife runs an store on the internet, and we've decided to use USPS until we hear this ends. What a bunch of Nazi crap.
What does the green card have to do with the veracity of the documents?
Why the heck are they assuming that she's not a citizen in the first place? Because she has relatives in Mexico?
This is completely stupid.
@B:
Because citizens and legal aliens don't ever perform fraudulent activities. It's only the illegals.
"Your papers, please! You don't have them?! To jail with you!!!"
I'm telling you, we are not that far from this. This nation is falling apart.
Wow, it is sometimes inconvenient to live illegaly in America. What a crime against humanity!
Wait. Can she do a chargeback?!
I guess I don't really understand this... But it states that people send illegal documents from outside the US, to inside the US. Is that not backwards?
If I wanted to commit some sort of identity theft, wouldn't it make more sense to send it from inside to out, so that people could come over here illegally?
Also, aren't most cases of identity fraud from INSIDE the US?
Did Consumerist go into reruns this morning? You ran this story weeks ago.
@SkokieGuy: The argument is slightly flawed. Only slightly. :-)
I see this no different than the government requiring pharmacies to put decongestants behind the counter.
UPS, complying with federal laws, is required by Border patrol to detain "suspicious" packages. While the package may have contained papers, they weren't sure if they were forged; furthermore, how are they to know that the green card was not forged?
I agree that if she refused to confirm her citizenship, UPS must turn over the package to Customs to be inspected.
Asking for proof of citizenship is not a violation of the 4th amendment. A police officer can ask for your license at anytime without cause. Why should a Passport/green card be any different?
Forgetting all the arguments about illegal aliens and such. Holding packages is not wrong in any way, if there is a concern about security. If UPS were to release the package and something would happen, they could be liable...
So basically UPS is covering their behinds - even if it seems to be xenophobic
@bdgbill: But the woman is legal so your argument goes poof.
If you hate illegals so much, our great country would like you learn to spell 'illegally' correctly.
As stated, the courts have stated the borders and international hubs are exempt from the 4th Amendment.
UPS is acting as an agent of the government in requiring people to show their green card.
UPS is doing nothing wrong. Since ids can be forged easily, and there has been a history of fraudulent documents coming from/sent to Mexico, requiring the person to show their green card is reasonable.
This is NOT an immigration issue. I have had to show UPS my id many times when picking up packages. UPS even demanded a signed letter with a copy of my license to have someone else pick up a package after I called.
@bdgbill:
you're an idiot. she's a LEGAL resident of this country. take your jingoism elsewhere, kthxbai
@bsalamon:
>> So basically UPS is covering their behinds - even if it seems to be xenophobic
UPS is xenophobic for following the law? What utter crap.
@linus:
actually you are only required to carry a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle. Otherwise you are only required to identify yourself to LEOs.
@linus: The government can put in place laws that have to be followed and rules and procedures, but ENFORCEMENT of laws is not normally the domain of private companies.
First, if the documents are illegal, whether the receiver is here legally or not is irrelevant. Secondly, UPS is not qualified to determine the validity of the documents.
Yes,laws give UPS the right (and perhaps duty) to inspect incoming packages, but any suspect shipments should be referred to the appropriate law enforcement authorities to determine if the shipment is in violation (FDA if its a shipment of suspect food, Immigration if its suspect citizen documents, DEA if its suspect drugs, etc.).
UPS is not a law enforcement organization.
It sounds like the woman is ordering multiple copies of other peoplrs birth certificates, for relatives. The senders address has been flagged by the FEDS and UPS is following the FEDS rule to determine who and why she is ordering these documents from out of the country.
I could probably order someone else's birth certificate from out of the country and have a pretty good chance of taking their identity. (Legal resident, born in another country, with that official copy, I could take his identity pretty easily! With Mexico's Bribery rates among officials, it wouldn't be hard to make a few dozen illegal aliens all of a sudden become legal residents under another name.)
Makes total sense to me, she should be glad it is in place, as a legal resident herself, her Birth Certificate is worth a few dollars to an illegal! She would be the first one to call foul if someone ordered her BC and took her identity!
@bdgbill: Umm can you read, she's a legal alien. What if she was born here, now what document is she supposed to provide. In this case, I'd simply make a phone call to the local police and file theft charges.
@SkokieGuy:
By the law requiring carriers to obtain additional documents "if customs agents ask for it" (as stated in the article), UPS has become an agent of the government and law enforcement.
@CharlieInSeattle:
1. She was not born in the US. As stated in the article "Bustos said she has lived in the United States for 15 years, became a legal resident and received her green card in 2002."
2. She says she is a legal resident. Did you personally verify that? Have you looked at her green card? Because that is all the UPS wants to do. The custom agents have asked for it from UPS.
how do they even know what's inside the envelope?
@linus: You are wrong an officer can not ask for your license unless you are driving a motor vehicle.
I agree that if she refused to confirm her citizenship, UPS must turn over the package to Customs to be inspected.
@linus: So what do you do if you're just visiting and someone sends you something? Why does being a US citizen matter one way or the other?
@MountainRooster: Proof of your identity isn't the same thing as proof of legal residency.
@Edge23: You obviously can't read either, I said what if, as in what if she was born here, how is she going to provide a green card? Can you personally verify it? Can UPS verify it? You think UPS has a tap into Federal law enforcement databases. Maybe you should try thinking before you make comments.
@Edge23: Wow you can't read either.
@BII: I've actually wondered about this. If you have no form of identification on you (drivers license, identification card, or otherwise), how would they charge you?
@SkokieGuy: Enforcement does happen in the private domain. When you apply for a job, the company is responsible to make sure you are allowed to work in the country.
Alcohol merchants must check and verify age before selling. By your standard, a police officer should be assigned to every grocery store, every restaurant, every mom-and-pop store to make sure that this inforced by a law enforcement organization. And even if this were to happen, we'd be screaming of an invasion of privacy.
UPS is not a law enforcement organization. Yes, that's true. But they do carry a responsibility, like all companies, to respond to the law. If UPS' hands are tied to verify citizenship in order to deliver a package sent from overseas, then they have to. There is no way to tell that the delivery is not a sting operation, much like the police using under-21 cadets to perform alcohol sale checks.
@Rectilinear Propagation: You respond to their request. If I was visiting France and they wanted to verify my citizenship, I would say that I'm not a citizen of France and that I'm visiting from the US. I'd produce my passport and then go from there.
I'm having trouble understanding why this is so complicated.
@CharlieInSeattle: You are a retard if you think UPS requires US citizens to shown their green cards - since that is not possible. Clearly the custom agents knew she was not a citizen since the feds so have a database (and they appear to be clueless about this), so they required UPS to get the green card from her.
So short, you learn how to read. The US government required UPS to get the green card from the woman.
Postal Convention:
[www.yale.edu]
@Edge23: Look in the mirror, no where in the article does it say it was based on a federal DB. You're the one that needs to learn to read. How about reading the treaty dumbass.
@linus: I've actually wondered about this. If you have no form of identification on you (drivers license, identification card, or otherwise), how would they charge you?
Watch COPS. If suspects don't have ID or they think they are giving false information (Name), the police will take them in and have them sit in jail till a fingerprint or government database check comes back showing who they are. A lot of people that DON'T have ID, give a false name will sit in jail a couple days and come back as a wanted felon or killer. A reason "they never got around to getting an ID".
They book them as JOHN DOE and they remain till a positive ID comes back. Even if no other crime is commited. CARRY ID!
@Wormfather: Your "green card" is essentially the same as your Social Security card. I don't think they're even green anymore.
@CharlieInSeattle:
You are clearly a retard. From the article
"Kristen Petrella, a UPS spokeswoman, said the company is simply following the law. U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents open and detain certain items, she said, and UPS' role is just to notify the customer how to get it.
"We follow exactly what they tell us to do," she said. "We are not an enforcement agency. We are not making the rules. We are in the business of making deliveries, but we have to follow the law.""
The feds asked for the green card.
Take your treaty and shove it. When Mexico stops sending illegals here, we will consider abiding by any crappy treaty signed in the past.
FTFA:
"After the Sept. 11 attacks, Customs and Border Protection "was given the legal right to inspect everything coming into the country and going out," said Joanne Ferreira, the agency's spokeswoman in Washington. "Identity documents are of concern to CBP because of their potential use by terrorists."
She said couriers are required to obtain additional information about a shipment, including proof of residency, if customs agents ask for it.
Bustos would have the birth certificates if she had complied with the request, Ferreira said. If Bustos does not end up with them, they will be sent to the Mexican Embassy in Washington."
It seems like CBP has requested additional identification be provided by Bustos in order to verify her immigration status.
@metaled: I think it was once I didn't have an ID on me. Purely by accident. I was shopping and apparently there had been some sort of robbery or something. The police wanted to log everyone that was there.
They asked me for identification. I had completely forgot my wallet at home (thankfully, I didn't drive). I told him that I had just gotten there and had no idea what happened. He let my friend and I go.
@Edge23, @CharlieInSeattle: : Man, lots of name calling. Is this really necessary?
they probably don't even know what a fucking green card looks like. unless she's concealing the fact that they asked for her driver's license and she doesn't have one, i don't see why they need to see her green card.
@linus:Yeah, I've calmed down now. No point of arguing with someone who can't grasp that UPS is doing what the US government asked them do.