Consumerist
Creative's executive team will be coming in to quite a mess Monday morning, thanks to its VP of Screw Ups, Phil O'Shaughnessy. Friday morning, he posted a warning on the Creative customer forums that told programmer Daniel_K to stop writing his own drivers for their X-Fi sound cards. The cards still won't work on Vista over a year after the OS was released, because Creative hasn't released drivers for them—but by Mr. O'Shaughnessy's account, Daniel_K is "stealing" from Creative by making the cards work. Then the weekend happened.
Over the weekend, Creative's forums have exploded with posts from angry customers who have sworn to stop buying their products. There's already a boycott site up at boycottcreative.com.
A Creative Forum poster named "youAREkidding" summed up Creative's stupidity quite nicely:
Imagine what would happen if 10%, just 10% of the people who will read about this, be in a store somewhere, see someone about to buy a Creative Labs product, and say to that potential customer. "If you have Vista, Creative has non-functioning drivers for it, there was a guy who created a Modified driver, but Creative made him stop distributing it, and there are still no workable drivers for Vista." Some people might laugh at him, but the majority of computer perhiperal buyers don't know squat, and if they hear it from someone who presents themselves in a knowledgeable manner, they may actually think twice about it. Creative loses another sale.By way of comparison, another forum poster, Igor_Levicki, points out that Nvidia supports its old cards much more reliably:
So, yes, Daniel may very well have stepped on some copyright rules, and Creative had the lawful option of doing what they did. Score 100 on the law, score minus several millions for not doing the job themselves in the first place, and putting someone like Daniel in a position where he had to do what he did, just to get the customers of this company happy.
Let me just remind you that for example NVIDIA still supports GeForce generations 5, 6, 7, and 8 in their latest video drivers for XP, XP64, Vista, Linux and Mac OSX. All those old cards still get performance improvements instead of being crippled.Even more entertaining is a mysterious post that appeared on the Daniel_K thread on Sunday, supposedly from Newegg.
[Update 8:54pm PST: It turns out that Creative's protocol for verifying your identity is easy to get around—you can simply change the address after you publish a post, and the new, unverified address will be displayed on previous posts.]
NewbieFinally, here's the infamous post that started it all, and that is going to lead to a very bad week for Creative, regardless of whether or not Newegg has gotten involved:
Posts: 1
Registered: 03-30-2008
newegg
Message 1179 of 1,436
Viewed 2,595 times
To Whom it May Concern:
While it is not our place to condemn the decisions of Creative regarding this issue, our customers come first. That being said, it has come to our attention that many of our customers are not happy with the products Creative has released nor the support for those products. To wit, we have processed nearly 5,000 return orders within the past 48 hours. While it is not normally in our best interest to publically comment in a manufacturer's forum, the overwhelming concensus has left us little choice. As such, effective tommorow morning newegg.com will suspend sales of the sound cards in question, particularly those indicated as "Vista compatible", pending an investigation into the matter. Those of you whom recently ordered such a card will still recieve your product as indicated in any relevant conversations. While we regret this abrupt decision, it has been deemed neccessary to protect the interest of our consumers. We welcome contact from Creative as soon as is possible so that we may resolve this issue.
Thank you,
Newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com
Daniel_K:Rule of thumb for bad news in the mainstream media: release it Friday so it's buried over the weekend. Rule of thumb for the web: don't infuriate thousands of your customers right before you decide to tune out for 48 hours.
We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are not supported by Creative. Where we do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made to run on other products for which they are not intended. We took action to remove your thread because, like you, Creative and its technology partners think it is only fair to be compensated for goods and services. The difference in this case is that we own the rights to the materials that you are distributing. By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods. When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own. If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.
Although you say you have discontinued your practice of distributing unauthorized software packages for Creative sound cards we have seen evidence of them elsewhere along with donation requests from you. We also note in a recent post of yours on these forums, that you appear to be contemplating the release of further packages. To be clear, we are asking you to respect our legal rights in this matter and cease all further unauthorized distribution of our technology and IP. In addition we request that you observe our forum rules and respect our right to enforce those rules. If you are in any doubt as to what we would consider unacceptable then please request clarification through one of our forum moderators before posting.
Phil O'Shaughnessy
VP Corporate Communications
Creative Labs Inc.
"Message to Daniel_K" [Creative Forums] (Thanks to everyone who sent this in!)
RELATED
Possibly fake Newegg response [Creative Forums]
BoycottCreative.com
(Photo: Young Frankenstein)
Comments
Creative is being rediculous. Illegal or not, Creative should provide the customers with working drivers or let the customers proved working drivers to Creative.
provide
I lost track of this thread as it unfolded over the weekend. Is it true that this developer was seeking donations for his work, and Creative told him to quit that, but, otherwise, the company in fact had no objection towards him making the drivers and freely distributing them?
Sad, out of touch Creative.
It convinced me to buy Roland and Yamaha soundcards instead.
Luckily most computers I use are laptops, so chances are, I'm not using a Creative soundcard.
They should pray that Attack of The Show didnt catch wind yet...
Then again, I expect it to make on this week's "The Loop", and maybe Webb Alert.
Creative has and always will suck ass. Having owned several products of theirs over the years, namely their Sound Blaster Live series of sound cars that had the most craptastic drivers, I vowed to never buy another of their products again long before this debacle occurred. The latest Creative mistake I made was purchasing one of their Fatal1ty 1010 Gaming Mice last year. It lasted 2 months before the left mouse button became erratic. It was RMAed, and the replacement itself lasted about two months. After the third 1010 they sent me, they started sending me the 2020 version, which is a laser mouse. I've found that the 2020 lasermice usually last about 2 weeks before exhibiting the same symptoms.
Here we are, 15 months later, and they are about to send me my 11th or 12th replacement mouse (I've lost track). This issue has been documented all over the web, including many posts on Creative's own boards, by a large number of users of these mice. Yet, whenever I contact them for yet another RMA, they always state that they are unaware of any design flaws, and the agent always manages to state that he actually has one of these mice at home and it has been fine for over a year. HA! Yeah right.
Anyways, after the first RMA, Creative has been footing the bill on the return shipping labels, so I'm not out anything. I imagine they've spent hundreds of dollars on replacement mice and shipping costs, not to mention the labor of arguing with me and handing my returns.
Oh well.
No biggie for Phil.
He'll get a golden parachute and a boot in the @ss on monday morning and Creative brass will find a 'creative' way to spin this PR disaster.
@theriteguy
That's kinda the way I'm taking it. However, by the way the letter sounds, I think it's Creative also stating that he's including the Creative trademark in reference to his drive packages.
There shouldn't anything wrong with him asking for donations. It's a package HE himself is making and updating, hell in the least Creative should HIRE this guy!
". If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make."
Creative their just sounds like complete d-bags! Well guess what consumers, we fully realize that we're not supporting your card on an operating system - and that's our decision. And we don't care that there is a guy willing to do our dirty work for free. It's ours!
bet they'll take fan support more "seriously" by monday.
@skitzogreg: I'm not aiming this at you... It's just that when I read the story, then saw the glowing blue Apple logo next to your name, I couldn't help think about the way Apple has treated iPhone users who wanted to install 3rd party apps on their iPhones.
Re: Creative's products, they're terrible. I've yet to find any of their products which actually even come close to their published specifications, let alone actually meeting them. Sound quality's poor at best, which is amazing considering how expensive their cards are. Then there is the issue of their software & drivers. Pure bloat.
@thewriteguy:
As long as a donation isn't required to download, creative cannot label the donations as profiting on their work. But that isn't the issue here. They seem to be mad that he is providing features to older cards that they didn't even have in the xp drivers. I do not have a creative card or vista, so I am not sure what features they are talking about. But I can guess and say that this custom driver is probably providing features from the x-fi cards to the audigy and live cards. Now creative may be right, but in the end it was their failure to provide a working vista driver that caused this guy to make this driver. So creative deserves to die over this. Consumers don't want to throw away perfectly good cards and buy a new one just because a new version of windows came out.
Hadn't even heard of daniel_k's drivers before this fiasco; and they work much better than creative's drivers. Kinda makes you wonder what all of their R&D budget goes to.
@Concerned_Citizen:
Agreed, being an audiophile and a user of X-Fi products [which i regret], creative has had nothing but bad support and horrible software issues. they should do what apple did, ire the guy and put him to good work. if you check any computer enthusiasts or audiophile forum, you'll see the hate for x-fi drivers and creative. check out OCN
[www.overclock.net]
This is really a cut and dry case.
Creative have commit both state and federal crimes by claiming "vista compatible". They can be seriously screwed and shut down.
Two, Daniel commit no crime at all. It is not a crime to write drivers. At least, not in the US.
This is so funny.
@thewriteguy:
Nope. Creative objects to the donations, but it also claims that by enabling this soundcard on newer systems, it is "stealing from" them. It objects to the existence of the driver itself.
Big surprise. Vista's primary purpose on this world is to drive upgrades and secondary purchases. Everyone depends on this effect. MS, retailers, third-party vendors, especially those with flat or declining market share. Spotlight Creative, a poster child of bloat and decay for the over a decade. I'd cut off a toe before installing another of their train-wreck drivers on my systems.
Love the Newegg contribution, though somehow I suspect it's been purged by now.
Phil O'Shaughnessy
Vice President, Corporate Communications
poshaughnessy@creativelabs.com
Why would they send their C&D through a message board. This guy (Phil O'Shaughnessy) is an idiot for so many different reasons.
"By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods." This sentence from the email doesn't make sense to me. The only people for whom these drivers are valuable have already purchased the cards! So, one could buy the card, and that's okay. But if they try to make it work on their computer system, then they're stealing. I love it!
Anyway, is it actually illegal to write a driver or a piece of software for hardware? I'd never given that much thought before, but it seems like an odd position.
Not entirely surprising coming from Creative, but still awful. This just gives me further incentive to not buy their products and to pass the information of this onto my friends so they don't give more money to another scummy company that doesn't care about their customers.
Thanks to everyone who summed up what was learned over the weekend about this.
I believe Creative may be in financial trouble. Most people these days buy notebooks or desktops that have on-board sound. So Creative has to sell their boards to hard-core gamers and semi-pro musicians.
Secondly, does anybody buy their MP3 players? I haven't heard much about them, especially ever since Microsoft brought out the Zune.
The company sells products that are becoming (if they are not already) irrelevant and unnecessary for the average computer user.
@thewriteguy: I've bought three of their MP3 players and love all of them. I've had zero issues with any of them, though my first one, a Zen Micro I think, is showing it's age a bit and wear and tear from Afghanistan.
Excellent little machines.
@thewriteguy:
I have a Zen Stone and it is excellent.
I don't think I'll be buying another one, though.
One of my mates first mp3 players was Creative. Bulky, yes but it worked fine for a number of years till mate got a iPod.
I personally own an Audigy card that is around 4 years old. I'm still using xp, but I can definetly relate to how much bloat creative driver packages are. Support for other OS's / ect sucks. When I was making my hackentosh I had to use my on board sound because Creative has not made any drivers for OSX in years.
I haven't heard of Daniel_K before but I'm definately going to track down his drivers for my card. Creative is shooting themselves not in the foot but the head. Do you see ATI/Nvidia going after the creator of Omega Drivers? No. Here is someone doing THEIR work for them and they have the audacity to threaten him legally?
When I build my new system when Nehalem comes out I won't bother getting a new Creative card (or even use the old one).
It seems pretty clear they're accusing him of enhancing Creative's own drivers. "youAREkidding" suggests that as well. Which if true they would be in the right legally, but definitely anti-consumer. (duh, hire the guy! Sounds like he doesn't need need much help.) Doesn't really sound like they're talking patents, but vague chance.
If the drivers are original works and don't infringe patents, then they owe an apology.
Oh, and I'm surprised nobody's referenced that telling another customer how crappy a product is could get you a police escort out of the store, as we recently learned.
@P41:
They still might be able to make some kind of DMCA claim in that case, I think.
@legwork:
I don't see any evidence of the sound cards being pulled from Newegg's site.
They should put the guy on the payroll to write Vista drivers, seeing as the entire Creative programming team can't seem to.
I ran into a similar problem with ATI not support old ATI FireGL video cards (I have a X1 256m FireGL that the vista drives are OWM and SUCK). I ended up going back to XP so I could use the card as it should be used.
I had completely forgotten how much I hated Creative Labs, until this Phil O'Shaugnessy douchebag reminded me. Good job at the PR there, retard!
For those whom are basically saying to avoid Creative for lack of quality product [this bonehead move aside], would you happen to be able to suggest something as a reasonable alternative? This coming from someone whom almost went and bought a CL Soundcard this weekend... since my current soundcard is about to bite the big one.
Looks like creative is playing the game of forced obseslesence. If they don't go the mile to upgrade their own software for utilization under the "latest and greatest" offering of Microsoft, their hopes are that people will go running to the store shelves to buy the latest and greatest sound hardware.
I walked away from Creative years ago when I updated to a mobo that had built in sound on the Nvidia chipset. Can't speak for Vista compatibility, I upgraded to a mac (shameless plug).
talk about slicing off your nose to spite your face. even if creative plans to release vista drivers today (*shake*shake*shake*outlook not so good), this seems like a really poor move.
i took a hop over to newegg - the cards are still up so far, but it was interesting to read some of the reviews. a few users say creative is blaming nvidia for the driver issue since they make the boards. classy. nothing like playing the ownsership card on the front end & passing blame on the back end. assholes.
Creative is still around? I haven't owned anything they produced since last century.
This whole situation is the result of years of horrible driver support, bloated software and hardware issues with their whole line-up of currently available hardware. They're still selling the Audigy line up of cards, so for them to purposely cripple the card in Vista as a 'business decision' is absolutely repulsive.
What about the 'legality' of Creatives false advertisement of a product being Vista Compatible???
@mac-phisto: Yeah, Outlook IS crap. Use thunderbird instead.
* tumbleweed *
In Ancient times, creative was a scrappy little company pumping out good cards and equipment. Seems Phil (P.O.S? classic) wants to play tough guy and got burned on the internets. He wouldn't be the first one.
I work in IT support for an extremely large company. We do not use or support Vista, and I'm often asked why not. This crap is one more reason why Vista and all it touches should dry up and blow away, IMO.
@speedwell: Oh, and "me too" on the "never buy Creative again." And I do influence purchasing decisions on hardware.
Vista has probably sold more Mac's than Apple's advertising.
I'm guessing someday it will make the top ten list of corporate blunders. Creative has made good products but this is pure BS.
Typical of a Korean company.
NewEgg hasn't done anything yet:
[www.newegg.com]
I think they are going to be told they can keep their IP. All of it including all their cards.
You can be sure I won't buy from creative ever again.
Creative should be on top of this shit then. It's ridiculous that a customer that is generating no income from this (or little from donations, at least) is practically supporting an entire company's venture in to vista.