Consumerist
When Dean recorded HBO's new Tom Hanks-produced miniseries "John Adams"—which is not a pay-per-view or on-demand program—he was surprised to see it was flagged by Tivo's Macrovision software, which controls how many times you may watch a program and how long you can store it before it's automatically deleted. Now the question is, was this a mistake on the part of HBO or Dean's cable provider Comcast? Or—considering HBO's infamous anti-consumer stance on time-shifted programming—is it the beginning of a sneaky "back-door" approach to locking down all their content, something Tivo's own people said would probably not happen when they added Macrovision to their recorders in 2004?
Update: Missdona has provided a couple of useful links in the comments below. If you experience similar issues with select programs being incorrectly DRMed, check out these threads for advice on how to resolve the situation.
Here's what Dean experienced:
"This morning, my kids and I decided to watch a TiVo HD recording we made last night of The Making of John Adams. This is the new upcoming mini-series by Tom Hanks and others about the lives and accomplishments of John Adams. When we started watching it, I first found that the TiVo had flagged it for mandatory auto-deletion within a few hours of being deleted, due to 'copyright policies.' Hmm - never saw that one before.Randomly flagged programming has happened before with the Tivo—for example, a Fox Movie Channel broadcast in 2006 triggered Tivo's recording restrictions, but seems to have been an error on the broadcaster's part. Is the same thing happening with HBO? What's suspicious about this is that Dean discovered both the making of featurette and the miniseries were blocked, so more than one program was flagged.
After about 5 minutes watching, my oldest son came into the room, and we decided to start it over so he could enjoy it. What I found was something I've never seen before and has me pretty frosted. When I backed up to the beginning and attempted to watch it again, TiVo would not allow me to - again stating that it had violated copyright policies. After countless attempts at forward and reverse moves, we found that we could now not watch any portion of the show! I rebooted the TiVo, and found the same thing. No can do - the TiVo/HBO/Comcast programming had locked it from being viewed again! Then as promised at 11:29am EST, it deleted from my hard drive and there was nothing I could do about it.
In this Wired interview from November 2004, Tivo's general counsel assured the public that it was unlikely (ha!) that content providers would take advantage of the Macrovision technology to restrict recording of regular programming:
What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.We don't know where Dean lives. Has anyone else tried to record this miniseries, and if so, was it flagged with DRM protection for you? (Note: it appears that Dean recorded it in HD, so if anyone who can test this with an HD Tivo, that would be even sweeter.)
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.
With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.
"UPDATED: HBO's new miniseries IS locked down for TiVo recording" [The Culture of Ownership] (Thanks to Missdona!)
RELATED
"Has TiVo Forsaken Us?" [Wired]
(Photo: Culture of Ownership)
Comments
Oh I would be so pissed.
I recorded both episodes so far and don't have any restrictions on it. I am using a standard series2 TiVo connected to a Comcast digital cable box.
I was able to transfer both episodes to my computer without a problem.
UPDATE: I am using standard-definition TV, not HD as shown in the screenshots above and the linked article.
Even if this is a mistake on the broadcaster's part, how does this make me more likely to legally watch the show? I really do try to watch legal versions of shows (Tivo, Netflix, online streaming) and am even willing to deal with a little bit of a hassle in order to do so, but this is a bit ridiculous. If I were in Dean's position, I probably would have given up and pirated the show.
This happens occasionally and turns out to be regional cable providers getting over-enthusiastic setting the copy-control bits. Peeking at the Tivo Community Forums shows Richmond, VA Comcast customers having the same issues with HBO, Showtime and Starz.
This looks a lot more like ignorance than malice.
It's happened before and it's your cable company's fault. You need to call them and complain because they aren't supposed to be flagging that.
I have a DVR through Wide Open West (WOW) cable in Michigan. I recorded the first two episodes of John Adams and watched them later. I paused several different times and rewound a few times (it's kind of difficult to understand the language they're using sometimes) and had no problems. However I deleted them when I was done. Didn't try to save them to watch again later.
As Buran said, it's not Tivo's fault. They are required to pass the copy protection flags that are set by the cable company.
I've had the same issue with Time Warner. I had no luck dealing with them directly, so I sent a request to the Public Utilities Commission, responsible for the video franchise.
Time Warner's response:
"TWC sets copy protection settings in accordance with applicable law and our programming agreements. The settings are correct."
------------------------------------------
So, where's the link to vote for the Worst Company in America?
Get your own DVR or build a DVR capable media PC. No monthly fees and no BS.
This type of BS pushes paying customers to pirating on the web.
Why pay and get crap for your money, when you can get crap-less recordings for free.
That's a great way to punish paying customers !
@bohemian: I think I may have asked you this in another thread: what do you use to get the HD signal into your media PC?
I have TivoHD via Cox Cable San Diego. My recording of both episodes of John Adams are not flagged with auto-delete, but they are tagged with DRM so they can't be transferred to DVD or VCR. I recorded them off HBOHD last night, watched them during the night, and then deleted them. (In my opinion, they weren't good enough to save, and if experience is any indication, HBO will rebroadcast them about a zillion times until everyone is heartily sick of them.) But I digress... I was able to restore them from my "deleted" folder and there they sit, in my Now Playing list.
Hey Chris ;-)
The more I read on this, I think it might be a mis-code of the DRM.
[www.tivocommunity.com]
I'm Tivo'ing the HD versions of John Adams tonight (Comcast, Northern NJ). I'll report back in the morning.
@bohemian:
Exactly... eliminate the "opportunity" for error...
Charter cable in my area recently "upgraded" the firmware in their Scientific Atlanta cable boxes, and as a result the video output that I use to record from has caused my Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder to behave erratically no matter what channel is tuned on the cable box. Not always prohibiting the recording, but causing the transport to respond sluggishly and eventually the recorder to lock up totally. Other users with similar models to mine and even differnt brands reported the same thing on the AVS Forum; some were prohibited from recording certain broadcasts from movie channels as well. Panasonic issued a firmware upgrade for some models but never got around to doing one for mine.
The fix was one of these or similar boxes:
[www.world-import.com]
and the problem went away. This box should also fix any copyright flagging if that's how you hook up your recorder. This of course won't fix the problem if you're recording direct off the cable via a cable card in the Tivo; this is only for those who can record indirectly off the cable box using video and audio cables. As always YMMV.
Hearing about this kind of thing makes me glad I have a MythTV box. Not sure how it would work with a cable service, but it's great for over-the-air stuff. It's also completely open source and even has algorithms to detect and skip commercials for you.
More info on CCI byte
[www.tivocommunity.com]
Sounds like some Comcast BS to me, I'm on RCN and recorded the first two episodes of this show in HD, and they aren't locked for me.
This is exactly why I became a MythTV ([www.mythtv.org]) user. I would strongly suggest that everyone takes a look around at all available options before just getting a tivo or dvr from their cable companies. By speaking with my wallet and refusing to pay them for their locked in services I have found myself an open source project that I enjoy so much I am no longer just a user, and have been spending my free time developing and supporting for a MythTV based operating system which aims at making the entire experience more attainable for average users ([www.mythbuntu.org]).
I recorded both eps of the miniseries so far on my Series 3 (HD) TiVo and had zero problems and no indication of flagging. I'm in the L.A. area on Time Warner Cable. Call your cable company, for sure.
This is why I refuse to buy consumer products that support DRM in any way, shape or form. "DRM = NO SALE." Sorry, but I'll not have my consumer electronics telling me what to do. I, for one, do NOT welcome my consumer electronic overlords. It's cliche, but it's true.
Many years ago I bought a Sony mini-DV cam that refused to copy a home movie I'd made years prior on an old, full size VHS camcorder. The DRM built into my shiny new $1,000 videocamera detected "copy protection" and disabled itself any time I tried to move the old video through it. Stupid fucking worthless piece of shit. I've been adamantly anti-DRM since and vowed, "Never again." To the point that I won't touch even iTunes with a ten foot pole. Screw them. Stop treating your customers like criminals, we paid for it, right? So back the hell off.
Interesting that it's a lot less hassle to illegally download material than to put up with the various copy protection schemes that inevitably lock me out of the software I paid for. Can't tell you how many times I've legally bought video games, then had to illegally download a crack just to get the stupid thing to work right. Makes me wonder why I bothered to buy it in the first place.
Recorded it here in Baton Rouge, LA, from HBOHD, watched them, transfered to TivoToGo, and had no issues. Like others has said, this is a local provider problem, not a Tivo or HBO issue.
To all the MythTV fanboys; care to explain how you're recording anything but OTA ATSC or in-the-clear QAM? I'm pretty sure you arent recording anything off HBO, regardless of how your cable provider is setting copy control.
TIVO is DRMed? I had no idea. Eh, chalk that up with the monthly fee as to why I won'd buy a TIVO box. I'll have to check out that MythTV thing.
@matto: The cable company is required by FCC law to give you working firewire ports on any HD STB. Now this gets shady where they can go ahead and encrypt the channels that are not locals without any repercussions, so this method can be hit or miss depending upon where you live. In Q1 of this year Hauppauge is releasing an external device that will be able to IR blast to your STB and capture HD video over component hookups, until then you are screwed unless you get lucky and have some open firewire connections to your good channels. This is why I refuse to get a dvr from my cable company, they should not be rewareded for their bad behavior with my money. Speak with your wallet and tell them what they are doing is not ok, and you will not pay for some overpriced gimped service that you have no control over.
Before people get all out of whacked about DRM, the only things I've seen Tivo apply DRM to are TivoCast and Amazon UnBox rentals (not purchases).
Lifehacker also did an article that details how to watch downloaded content on your Tivo for free, so go find a John Adams torrent. ;)
Wow - This is one of the many reasons I am so happy that my original, 7-year-old TiVo is still in perfect working order, knock on wood!
If its in HD, its likely that the local Comcast franchise has messed up the CCI bytes. Give them a call and try to work it out, failing that call up your local franchise authority and let them know that Comcast is happily crippling your dvr while not doing the same to their own. Thats generally worked well for me.
This is a damn shame. I was one of the early adopters of Tivo. Although I loved the device, and still love the concept (I have a DVR), some of their corporate policies really disgusted me.
One thing in particular was their 'starred' advertisements, which could not be deleted. That really pissed me off. I was paying every month to swap one form of advertising for another -one that couldn't be avoided.
The final straw was when they said they would start selling your viewing habits to the highest bidder. I am a firm believer that my actions, and behaviors, are owned by me and not some third party. If I watch an artist paint a picture, and was able to recreate his exact moves to paint an identical copy of that picture, is that not infringement?
My test went well. Both eps of John Adams in HD recorded with no flags on my TiVo HD with Comcast in Northern NJ with cable cards.
@loueloui: I understand what you mean, but you could opt-out of the viewing habits thing.
@missdona:
You shouldn't have to opt-out. It should be opt-in only. Next, the bank will be selling an aggregated, "anonymous" record of your purchases unless you opt-out.
@matto: In HD or SD? In SD, it's as simple as hooking a receiver up to a capture card. In HD, well, it's a bit more complicated. There's firewire (if you're in the US, this is mandated by law), or analog capture (whenever that gets finished).
Personally, I'm not going to go HDTV until this issue is solved. If that means in 2011 (Yay for being Canadian) I have to use a downconverter, so be it. You can shove DRM down my throat once I'm dead. It's too bad the DRM only exists because people are willing to accept HDTV no matter how terrible their experience with it is.
@SpenceMan01: Yes, Tivo had to comply with the CCI restrictions or there WOULDN'T BE A CABLE CARD ENABLED TIVO.
This is a case of the CCI byte being set incorrectly at the cable head end, which does happen frequently.
@RvLeshrac: Grow up. Most things like this are already 'opt-out' and wishing they weren't or whining about how they shouldn't be, is not going to change anything.
People need to pay attention to what they check or click or sign instead of blindly speeding through and then whining later.
I have Insight with the DVR. And for some strange reason it "randomly" will not record new popular TV shows. I set the recording to record a show on a weekly basis and then it just takes the scheduled recording off the list. It causes me to have to check every evening that my shows are going to be recorded. But the funny thing is, this ONLY happens with the newly broadcasted high-ranking TV shows. Repeats and shows that aren't as popular there is NEVER an issue. Has anyone else had this problem? I am thinking Insight is doing this on purpose and the reason why is I got a new DVR to try and fix the problem and same thing.
@rhpot1991: QFT, I have a Mythbuntu box. I'm new to Linux too and didnt have a hard time setting everything up. It works great for what I watch and record. Also, its not only my DVR its also my media center, all my music is on there, playing through the surround, all my movies are on there so I dont have to deal with DVDs. I don't have HBO but before I moved we did and we had no issues recording from it... Now all I pay is $20/yr for SchedulesDirect.
I think the most important question is how did your kids handle the full frontal male nudity or cussing? I thought about watching it with my 11 yr old, and ordinarily the cussing wouldn't have bothered me, but the naked during tar and feathering part I ff'wd through.
By the way...no problem
@fhic: Most newer TV Capture cards allow for two inputs: One SD signal and one DTV signal.
@toddvm: My parents had an Insight DVR for about a month. The software was buggy, they would have random re-starts and (what made my mom most-crazy) is when the cable was down, so was the DVR. They traded it twice with no better results, so they switched to TiVo.
@bohemian: Let us know when we can purchase a tv-card capable of decoding encrypted digital signals.
Unless your cable company just broadcasts all its content un-encrypted, you CAN'T just build a computer to record this.
Luckily, there will be full HD, non-DRM versions available for download on bit-torrent. Isn't it great when the illegal versions of shows are easier to use and more convenient to access? Oh wait, no. That's just ironic.
@sleze69: We don't purchase the HD package so YMMV. I'm not 100% sure how the whole mess is configured (I didn't set it up) but it works and were not bound to DRM and other nonsense by the cable company.
@bohemian: I never used to think that building your own DVR was worth it. Now, and not just because of this particular story, I'm inclined to go that route.
@MARTHA__JONES:
Betcha' John Adams (known never to be tongue-tied) would have used some colorful language as well!
My good 'ol DVR rented from the cable company does not have this. If it did I would just use an old PC as a DVR.