Consumerist
Donald Lynch, certified public accountant, was convicted of misdemeanor assault after pushing a 75-year-old Walmart greeter who wanted to check his receipt, reports The Chronicle. Lynch said the greeter tried to block him by pushing against him with his shoulder. Security tape showed the greeter flying to the floor. While an employee has no right to touch you, you also don't have a right to shove them on the floor, especially if they're septuagenarian!
PREVIOUSLY: Man On Trial For Knocking Down Walmart Receipt Checker
Comments
Is there no source for this?
I have trouble believing that someone honestly feels threatened by a 75-year old greeter at Wal-Mart. Until Chuck Norris turns 75, that is.
What if they're only vegetarian? Then can you knock 'em on their soy-eating ass?
The old man was clearly going to kidnap, murder, and rape the man. The Mal-Wart(TM) employee was just lucky that he didn't exercise his rights and smoke the geezer's ass with his concealed-carry sidearm!
(no sarcasm tag in the world big enough for this one)
I hope he wins his appeal. They clearly tried to play the "oh, but it's a poor old man" card, which is total crap. He had ZERO right to block him from leaving in the first place.
@ecwis: [www.chronline.com]
There is an article. I find it amusing how they call a receipt checker a "greeter." Also, it is fact that the receipt checker "blocked the exit."
Is that legal?
@ecwis: If that other link doesn't work, use this one: [www.chronline.com]
"While an employee has no right to touch you" as true but this guy should not have been knocked down.
The greeter needs to learn that a physical confrontation will most likely to end with a problem. He has the option to call his security people if he feels he can't deal with the customer.
@takotchi: At the same time, the "poor old man" was simply doing his job. There was no excuse for the guy to shove him so hard that it sent him flying.
@ecwis: Oh, you mean like the article linked to in the summary?
That's so lame. Somebody illegally detains me by pushing against me with their shoulder, and they're gonna be laying on the floor bleeding. I don't care how old the guy is - you assault someone, you are asking to be assaulted in return.
Sounds like this guy had a poor excuse for a lawyer and got screwed.
This is the same guy from the post the other day...
but at least now I know he was walking out with a bicycle.
@RandoX: I don't know, those 75 year olds can be pretty obstinate... even if not Norris.
Hope Wal-Mart employees have health insurance.
@RandoX: I could've sworn that wasn't there a minute ago...
There is a lesson to be learned here. Shoot out the security camera before decking the receipt checking greeter.
I think it's kinda funny to me on a personal level because I used to work on a street named Donald Lynch Bvd., the suspect's name. No Wal-Mart there, but it does have a Target.
@NameGoesHere: No, the "poor old man" was NOT doing his job. Walmart company policy clearly prohibits any employees (other than loss prevention associates, which people greeters are not) from attempting to stop or detain any customer for any reason. Also, obviously, Walmart employees are not allowed to physically assault customers.
This guy was NOT doing his job; he broke company policy AND the law.
Chuck Norris's beard will be just as leathal at 75 as it is now. He's really immortal. He just ages to fool everyone. The last thing you will hear is him yelling SURPRISE!!!
@takotchi: Blocking requires little to no physical contact, and its what MANY businesses do for inventory control. Shoving any person to the ground is A-S-S-A-U-L-T. What you dont understand is that while blocking someone from leaving a business is a bad business practice, the misdemeanor assault is far out of line and unwarranted. The customer had no right to physically hurt anyone, especially an employee.
@aaron8301: Because clocking someone so hard that they fall down bleeding is the adequate response to getting nudged by someone's shoulder, right?
Good lord, you sound like a ticking time bomb. What do you when someone cuts you off in traffic, open fire through your car window?
@aaron8301: I hate to break it to you, but even if you are assaulted, you cannot just fly off the handle at that person. You can use "reasonable force" to defend yourself.
However, say he was illegally restraining you and in the course of the struggle, you knocked him down. He does have an assault and battery claim against you. But you also have the same claim against him, as well as unlawfully detaining you. You might even be able to throw an unlawful conversion in there if any of your purchased goods were lost or destroyed as a result of him grabbing you.
Personally, I'd let the court convict me and then I'd file civil charges against everyone without eyesight.
I knew something like this was going to happen sooner or later. Will probably happen again, until we fix this shit. Either a separate exit, or "thank you" stickers on unbagged items, something.
Maybe it's getting a little out of hand?
I mean comon Wal-Mart, stop trying to check out receipts, you'll never win.
@ecwis:
Unlawful imprisonment.
@rdldr1: Of course it requires physical contact! If somebody tries to leave, you have to stick your body in front of theirs and stop them. But, this person had no right to do that, and, if somebody is in your way, you have to push them out of the way. They might fall over, but, they took the risk of that when they tried to block your way.
@aaron8301: Why stop at punching his lights out? Why not stab him? Or shoot him? Would stomping on his face and head be appropriate? Of course not. And why? Because it's not a proportioned response to the offense. It's called "self defense" because you feel that you are in personal, immediate, physical danger. If you honestly feel that you're in danger of physical harm because the 75 year old dude at Wal-Mart put his hands on you, then perhaps you have some anxiety issues you need to explore.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of the second ammendment, RKBA, defending yourself, etc. but punching a senior citizen just because you think you have the legal right to do so is wrong.
@rmz: I prefer tossing hand grenades!
This idea that it's okay to shove someone to the floor because he stands between you and the exit just reeks of entitlement. "You piss me off, I'm entitled to do whatever I want to you." Apparently, if you engage in a discussion with someone rather than use force, it makes you a wimp or something.
Yeah, that's where I think the line gets blurry. I don't believe in showing my receipt but I also don't believe in knocking people over. The stores that station the sweet grandmotherly types at the doors are smart. I don't want to show my receipt but I have a hard time saying no to grandma or grandpa...
@aaron8301: Violence begets violence my friend, and that street goes both ways. You would still be arrested on charges of physical assault if the man was 20 years old! While yes, the 'greeter' shouldn't have blocked the customer's exit, the customer escalated the situation by increasing the amount of physicality. The ONLY time you are allowed to physically harm someone is if you believe that your life, or someone else's life, is in danger: no exceptions. This threat then must be proven in a court of law with evidence if it is to be used as a defense.
The 'greeter' might have broken the law, but so did the customer.
I've worked retail, and while I've never been physically assaulted by a customer I've been dangerously close twice. Both times I defused the situation by reinforcing the fact that not only would they be spending the night in jail but that they probably wouldn't land a hit on me. Now some of that is bluffing, I have studied martial arts for a couple of years and consider myself proficient, but not nearly to an expert level. In any case no one got hurt, except for maybe their pride.
Words can be more powerful than actions sometimes, especially if you can make the other person believe them to be true.
Violence is the LAST resort, even if someone has a gun pulled on you if at all possible defuse the situation. (But in all likelihood it isn't possible to defuse the situation, so don't leave yourself defenseless)
@aaron8301 The greeter claims he did not touch the defendant, the tape, from what I've read, doesn't show the greeter touching the defendant, only the greeter falling. So take it with a grain of salt that just because Mr. Lynch says he was pushed, that doesn't make it true.
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And where is the common sense, he was walking out with a bicycle and that's when he chose to assert his 'right' to not show a receipt? Christ, maybe I'm in the minority, but when I walk out with large unbagged items, I keep my receipt handy for occasions like this. I don't care if we don't have to stop and show proof of payment, we also don't have to let traffic merge in front of us, but many of us, simply out of common decency, do.
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I'm calling this Receipt Rage
@ClayS: Yes, I found it in the Washington criminal code.
And...
So the receipt checker blocked Lynch from exiting with "physical force" and "intimidation" yet Lynch was the one convicted of a misdemeanor?
@alphafemale:
"I'm calling this Receipt Rage"
Dude, you need to trademark that stat! ;)
I think what happened was that the presiding judge asked to see the perp's receipt during the trial.
The rest is history.
@spawnofbill:
Do you have any evidence that warrants that statement? I simply don't believe that is the case.
For instance, if someone is punching and kicking you, can you only respond physically if you know that your life is in danger? Otherwise, you just sit there and take it?
So, we've learned that Wal-Mart employees are dicks and Wal-Mart shoppers are assholes and when assholes collide with dicks, they get screwed.
/not original, but applicable none the less...
@ecwis:
Right, I think they both did wrong. We've been down this receipt-checking road before. If you really don't like to have to show your receipt, just shop in the multitude of stores that don't have the requirement. Why look for confrontation?
@aaron8301: Psh... all the old man did was block him. You've been blocked before, yes? Usually that involves the other person standing in the way while blocking YOUR movement.
I'd hardly say that should result in the old man being shoved the way he was. It sounds like the guy in question has a few anger issues.
@rmz: Yeah, that's really freaking funny and worth snark, isn't it? Mr. Lynch wasn't a single woman, like I am, I don't think the jibe at my concerns that I posted in one of the other receipt threads is warranted at all. I'm going to continue breaking free however I can if this ever happens to me, thank you. I'm not risking my life by allowing anyone to restrain me anywhere, and I don't care if the receipt nazis don't like it. They can ask. I will refuse. If they grab me, I will push them away from me. Not knock them down, of course, but I will ensure that they let go of me. And then I will run out the door, yelling for help if I have to.
If you let your guard down once, you could wind up dead. Not for me, thanks.
@alphafemale: Actually, you do have to let traffic merge. There are signs posted instructing drivers to merge. Disobeying the signs (refusing to merge) is a violation.
In the Michigan Vechicle Code, for example, it is stated in Secton 257.671:
@ecwis:
There are things you can do that will not intentionally cause GREATER harm to your assailant. For example, I could block those kicks and punches and pin him to the floor. This would disable his ability to harm me, and I have not caused any intentional harm to him.
I will revise my statement a tad though, since I'm not a lawyer. You cannot respond with GREATER force that than which is being afflicted on you. From what I understand it's a fairly muddy area in law, and varies greatly state-by-state but the general consensus is that if you escalate, you're in the fault.
@ecwis: While the statutes defining the legitimate use of force in defense of a person vary from state to state, the general rule makes an important distinction between the use of physical force and deadly physical force. A person may use physical force to prevent imminent physical injury, however a person may not use deadly physical force unless that person is in reasonable fear of serious physical injury or death. Most statutes also include a duty to retreat (notable exceptions include Louisiana and Florida: see stand-your-ground law), wherein deadly physical force may only be used if the person acting in self defense is unable to safely retreat. A person is generally not obligated to retreat if in one's own home (for example, a person doesn't have to retreat from the living room to the kitchen, then to the bedroom, then to the bathroom) in what has come to be called the "castle exception" (derived from the expression "A man's home is his castle").
[en.wikipedia.org]
&
[en.wikipedia.org]
@ecwis: Punching/kicking has resulted in death before, actually.
@ClayS: Well it's hard to know where you'll actually be checked for your receipt. I've been to Wal-marts quite often and I only remember one time where I was asked for a receipt. My local Wal-Mart has never asked for a receipt. I'm not even sure that it is a store policy.
Pure comedy. Never did I think that that showing a receipt would become this big of an issue. Seesh.
Walmart needs to hire NYC-bouncer-sized "greeters" to kick some receipt-hider butt.