Its another case of "just because you can doesn't mean you should"

Didn't we essentially cover this topic yesterday?

"a refund fee for processing the refund"

Best use of doublespeak in 2007

Annoying, but does the essence of a contract change because of death? Seems anything they do is a goodwill gesture. Sure its probably not worth the bad PR for how often it happens.

@Geekybiker: Exactly my point.

I'm pretty sure death nullifies most contracts...

Ok, to all of you who want all these businesses to disregard the policies set forth in the terms of the sale because it's "the right thing to do", how do you propose they handle the countless requests to cancel 'because she died' or 'because he has cancer'?

If they do no verification on these claims, people will use them when they are not true. Even here on Consumerist we see, "get out of so-and-so's contract by telling them this lie" type of articles.

If they do honor these claims with verification, they are going to have to hire people to do this, costing everyone else more money.

If you buy a reduced fare ticket that's non-refundable, then quit bitching that you can't get a refund.

BTW, I couldn't read this particular article, as it required logging into NYT. So my argument may be off base for this particular incident, but as a whole still stands.

I really don't see this as Hawaiian Air charging a death fee, but as Hawaiian Air not having a corporate culture or policy that promotes actions like waiving refund fees in case of death of ticket holder.

It's really only maddening / saddening if you work at making it so. If my mother had just died (happened years ago) a $75 fee would not even faze me, compared to the LOSS OF MY MOTHER.

@DARKENED: Correct, hence the other entities cancelling with no fees and no problems.

Does it cost money to process a refund? Yes. Does it cost $75 to process a refund? No. Not a chance.

@ptkdude: How much does it cost?

"a refund fee for processing the refund...There's administration involved -- paperwork, computer entries... The processing of the refund takes staff time that costs the company money."

It doesn't cost that much. If it does their system for doing it is bad or designed to prohibit refunds.

@Landor: Yep. Does the airline say in its contract that if you need to cancel for any reason there will be a fee charged? If so, you KNEW when you bought the ticket that if anything unexpected happened, there would be a fee.

IF that is the case, this is another example of "the rules don't apply to me and are for other people!" entitlement bitches whining when they don't get what they want. I am appalled that, if there were such a clause in the ticket agreement, that this woman filed what would then be a fraudulent chargeback.

The story only says "first-class ticket". It doesn't say what the circumstances are for refunds.

@ptkdude: Perhaps. But if that is what their policy is, that's what they charge. Not everyone is a non-profit that charges at cost.

@warf0x0r: I look at it more like 'are they hiring new people to do the refund?' No, of course not. They act as if they have to jump through hoops to deal with the matter. Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure that's a normal customer service matter and that they have a customer service rep there somewhere getting paid whether they process a claim or not.

Well, it costs that much because they first have to process the refund, which incurs a fee. That fee needs processing, which incurs another fee. The cycle keeps going until the company decides it is time to cash in on those fees instead of building them up a bit more.

@Murph1908: I used bugmenot.com to get in. Useful extension to have if you use Firefox; if you don't, you can still get info off their website.

Funny thing is, I used to be logged in via a bugmenot login, but this article demanded I log in again.

@Murph1908: No one would lie to avoid paying fees, would they?

I'm with you. This time it was, unfortunately, true, but I'll bet for this one story there are 12 more where Aunt Gertie made a miraculous recovery from her cancer or death.

I really don't think this should be newsworthy. It's expensive to die! It's a fact of life (death?). Expect to get stuck with fees and hard times getting bills paid or things refunded. Or I suppose getting outraged over $75 is easier than dealing with the death of a loved one.

@ptkdude: It probably costs them more. Have you ever run a business? "Exceptions" are very expensive. The time spent booking, the time spent unbooking, the fact that the seat might not get filled when it would have had this person not bought the ticket in the first place and other transaction costs.

@mell: Of course they DO. The time they spend doing the refund costs time and salary, and that adds to the demand for CS agents. It's shocking how little some people know of how the world works.

@swalve: It probably takes about 5 minutes to enter the information into a database and issue a refund. Does that mean they pay their CSRs $825/hr?

If Hawaii Air, just looked at the death certificate and pushed the refund button, it wouldn't have taken much time at all. Instead charging the fee is going to take more time then cancelling a reservation.

Also, if you read the article, it states it was a first class ticket cancelled 7 months ahead of time. Plenty of time to get another butt in the seat.

btw,
i've had to file a claim (because of vacation insurance) to get a refund on a plane ticket, and absolutely yuo have to provide documents to support your storie ex: death certificate, doctors note, etc.

that way, you can't just lie to get a refund.

The correct response to the ticket agent on the phone is. Thank you for your time, please hurry up and charge the $75 so I can call my credit card company and do a chargeback.

Works everytime, and it feels great, because chargebacks actually HURT very much large corporations. Because the percentage they pay on CC processing fees is in part based on chargebacks.... Hell even Walmart the #1 company in the US had it's payment processor TURN off their ability to process credit payments for a whole day, because they weren't happy with the amount of chargebacks.

Nobody is above chargebacks. Just tell the ticket agent. That you are going to charge it back, because nearly every corporation trains employees that chargebacks are the DEVIL and evil.

@swalve: It's shocking you don't see how the world works. Oh well, it's Christmas, I'll help:

Hawaiian Air should refuse most of these refund requests or charge for them, as they are probably frauds and cost the airline money. They have a CS department to handle the details and deal with the Customers on the phone.

On the off chance such a death turns out to be true, the denied Customers should go to the media and tell their story. It will get picked up and published all over, making the airline look bad.

At this point, the airline's Marketing department takes over for CS, looking to mitigate the negative PR done by the news story. In addition to dealing with the press, Marketing usually has enough pull to "magically" get the refund processed without a fee.

End result: Customer is happy. Airline is happy. Media is happy. Life goes on.

@ptkdude:
I don't work for a non-profit, and it costs us about $3 to process each individual "sign-up" of sorts. That includes all costs. With the volume Hawaiian Air likely does, I can't imagine it costs them more than $10 even if you add in non-refundable fees.

Re "getting outraged over $75," this is after making the call, relaying bad news to an unsympathetic stranger...how can this person be blamed for being upset about an inappropriate fee?

And since when are airline seats NOT filled these days? If this were really an issue, I supposed we'd have seen $75 charges from the other airlines mentioned.

In this case (death, which I would say is the WORST and rarest case) it's going to cost the company more in bad PR than it would have to just say they are sorry for the loss, give the refund, and move on.

In business, making those judgment calls is also "how the world works." (Condescend much?)

even if it does cost money to process a refund, its called the cost of doing business. are they suggesting that the airline would not profit at all if they processed refunds for free? and if it costs $75 to process, sounds like its their problem for not finding a cheaper way to do it. i would put all the money i have (which i'll admit isn't much) on a bet that says they actually profited still. that after the $15 it probably actually costed them to process the refund, the still pocketed the other $60 as profit.

This is so much b.s. It cost most business money to process things in regards to death, but only those that can charge - do. For example, if a relative leaves you a CD, you are not charged a fee for taking the money before the term is up because death over rides the "rules."

What's even sadder are the people who buy into this mentality, that a corporation can do whatever it wants (within legal limits) as long as it's part of their rules.

you would think that, with 7 months before the flight, there would be time to verify that she's actually dead and not charge the fee as a goodwill gesture.

If they cancelled day-of and the seat is empty, I'd side with the airline.

@num1skeptic:
Maybe they charge $75 per cancellation so people stop and think twice before canceling? If they make it too cheap, I suspect more people would cancel their tickets for a wide variety or reasons, leaving the airline with unfilled seats (even in todays market). But $75 or $100 seems to be the "sweet spot" that most airlines charge for a canceled ticket. Just speculating...

Clearly, in this case, and as noted above, with proper documentation, no fee should be levied.

@hollerhither: How is it inappropriate if it was in the contract that you agreed to? You have a chance to review the terms before you buy the ticket.

She (probably; we don't have enough info yet) wants to change the terms after the fact, which requires both parties to agree, and the airline did not agree -- which is its legal right. She committed fraud by filing the chargeback, and I hope the airline wins the dispute.

@m4ximusprim3: I've never seen a ticket that was refundable up to X days before the flight. Either it's refundable or it isn't.

@zouxou: Except, under contract law, they can.

Yet another person trying to weasel out of a contract/agreement.

But I do agree that $75 is a bit too much.

@Peeved Guy: i bet you just nailed it head on. if more people cancelled, they have to give more last minute discounts to fill seats, and they don't want to discount.

and yeah buy buying the ticket you agree to the bs terms but this is no different than trying to buy a car without agreeing to arbitration. if every single car place forces you to arbitraion (and they do) what is your choice? walking?

every airline has close to the same policy. if you need to fly, its their way or no way, which is not a very friendly way to conduct business.

@ancientsociety: There's a big, gaping hole in your logic. People don't get paid per minute that they do actual work (ie, enter info). They need to hire a guy who will handle these type of cases. He might be doing only 2 cases per day, but they gotta pay him a full salary.

@Buran:
Oh, please. At the very least, it should be possible to present a death certificate and the fee should be waived. But to take things even this far is bad PR and bad business, whether or not you happen to possess an actual ounce of compassion for any individual.

@num1skeptic:
This is nowhere NEAR the same as binding arbitration. You, when buying a ticket, have the option to take the cheapest, non-refundable fare, or choose a higher, unrestricted fare.

Buy the non-refundable ticket, don't expect a refund.

Y'all tickle me: "He bought a non-refundable ticket: Who cares if he died, no refunds means no refunds, dammit!"

Hi.Larious.

@hollerhither: Oh please, yourself. It's ridiculous these days to ask that someone stand up to what they agreed to do? How would YOU feel if someone tried to weasel out of paying money owed? You'd be mad, right? And they tried to say "but but but but my life sucks!" ... and that is your problem how? yes, I'm sorry that this woman's mom died, but she's not that special.

I've had bad things happen to me before, but I wasn't such a selfish asshole that I felt I had to weasel my way out of my obligations.

You can ASK if you can get a break due to problems you're having with your life, hence it's OK to try to work out a repayment plan with a creditor if you lose your job or something like that, but they DO NOT have to let you have it.

She should have bought a refundable ticket or taken out travel insurance if she wanted flexibility if something happened.

She didn't.

Next thing you know she'll go to China, rack up a $2,100 cell phone bill, and whine that that's not her problem too.

Oh, please.

Actually the person@Buran: Its not fraud. Where is the intentional misrepresentation of a material fact?

The lesson to be learned in this is that American Express comes off looking like a hero in this case and gets a lot of good publicity, while Hawaii Airlines looks like a zero. I doubt American Express is going after Hawaii, they probably ate the $225 and got a loot of good will.

Also, Given the amount of money this woman was spending on vacations, I bet she is a pretty high roller too...so that encourages use of their card.

@Buran: Furthermore, unlike the Chinese Iphone story, this woman has not used any of Hawaii's service (i.e. travel)

You could make the argument that Hawaii could have sold the seat, but given the large lead time (7 months notice), I don't think its a problem selling that seat.

Darkened, sorry but death does not necessarily terminate a contract. That is why you, I and everyone else have what is called an estate. Prime example. You sell some property under what is called a contract for deed. Now do you think that the buyer just lost the property or is out of the contract? Nope. The buyer keeps paying to the Estate. The Heirs work out whatever they wish with the income stream.

As to the woman's death. Sorry but as the airline stated, it has nothing to do with a death. If she was alive and wanted the money back there would still be a charge. This is a but a tempest in a teapot. Sorry.

The thing that bugs me more than the fee is the fact that all three tickets were probably bought on the same itinerary and credit card. When three family members or close friends travel together, that's usually the way it goes down, so that one person does the booking for the group and they get to pick their seats together, and in some cases, won't get individually targeted for bumping and get left behind while the rest of the group travels on as it might be if they were just three unrelated tickets in the airline's system. Not always the case, but just saying.

I don't know for sure if this was the case here, but if it was, Hawaiian Air's got a lot of nerve charging the $75 fee THREE times to process this.

i hope hawaiian air starts to call it the "death fee". that would be great to see on their terms.

They charged a fee for processing the refund not because the woman died. It isn't as if they wouldn't have charged the fee if they had to cancel for some other reason.

I think airlines in general should waive fees like this for extenuating circumstances but I don't see how, legally speaking, they were able to do a chargeback. I thought a business had to break the agreement (like sending the wrong color shirt or a TV that doesn't work) in order for a chargeback to work.

personally, it warms my heart anytime a consumer "weasles their way out of a contract", as most of the time, the contracts are rediculous. this isn't someone trying to weasle out of a car payment, or someone who's trying to not pay for their house. to use the words some of you are using is calling the grieving op a weasle. what wonderful people we all are.

this site has more heartless a-holes than nazi germany did.

I don't know for sure if this was the case here, but if it was, Hawaiian Air's got a lot of nerve charging the $75 fee THREE times to process this.

@scoosdad: It was the case. The chargeback was for $225.

We all just had this conversation yesterday. Nonrefundable means just that. This is not difficult people.

@num1skeptic: This thread is officially Godwinized.

If you spend your life counting on the kindness and compassion of large corporations, it's not going to be very happy one. Take your lumps, shut-up, smile, and move on.

But whatever you do, don't whine.