Unless you’ve just arrived in 2009 on a time machine, you know that smoking isn’t good for you. Did you know, that smoking isn’t good for your computer, either? It’s true, at least according to Apple. Two readers in different parts of the country claim that their Applecare warranties were voided due to secondhand smoke. Both readers appealed their cases up to the office of God Steve Jobs himself. Both lost.
Back in April, Derek copied us on his e-mail to Jobs:
I took my mid 2007 apple macbook (black) into the Jordan Creek Apple Store in West Des Moines, Iowa, on Saturday, April 25th, because I had been experiencing some issues with it overheating, and figured the fan was bad. After some initial testing, they took the computer in for work under my Applecare plan, which has over a year remaining on it.
Today, April, 28, 2008, the Apple store called and informed me that due to the computer having been used in a house where there was smoking, that has voided the warranty and they refuse to work on the machine, due to “health risks of second hand smoke”.
Not only is this faulty science, attributing non smoking residue to second hand smoke, on Chad’s part, no where in your applecare terms of service can I find anything mentioning being used in a smoking environment as voiding the warranty.
Jobs’ office did not help Derek, but he resolved some of the problems himself by disassembling his Macbook and cleaning it out with a can of compressed air.
A few months later, reader Ruth wrote to us with an identical complaint after trying to have her son’s iMac repaired at a local authorized repair center.
I bought an iMac for my son (for school) along with the extended Applecare warranty. A month ago, it quit working. My son took it to the authorized Mac service center. The “tech” informed him it would be ready in 48-72 hours. Five days go by and he’s heard nothing, so I called. They informed me that his computer can’t be worked on because it’s contaminated.
When I asked for an explanation, she said he’s a smoker and it’s contaminated with cigarette smoke which they consider a bio-hazard! I checked my Applecare warranty and it says nothing about not honoring warranties if the owner is a smoker. The Applecare representative said they defer to the technician and my son’s computer cannot be fixed at any Apple Service Center due to being listed a bio-hazard.
This computer cost approx. $3,000, with the extended warranty. I’m all for destroying cigarettes and putting big tobacco out of business (yes, I’m a reformed smoker), but to label a computer a biohazard because one is a smoker is going a bit too far in regulating who can have the warranty they purchased honored. Shouldn’t there be some disclaimer stating that they won’t honor warranties from smokers?
Ruth appealed her case to Steve Jobs’s office, which also declined to repair the iMac. In another letter, she wrote:
Dena [from Jobs' office] did advise me that nicotine is on OSHA’s list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health. However, OSHA also lists calcium carbonate (found in calcium tablets), isopropyl alcohol (used to clean wounds), chlorine (used in swimming pools), hydrogen peroxide (also used to clean wounds), sucrose (a sugar), talc (as in powder), etc… as hazardous substances.
…
Dena set up an appointment at the same Apple store. They told me that they would take pictures of the computer – both inside and out before determining whether to proceed and that if the only problem was the optical drive, they’d probably just replace it. Dena called me earlier this week to deliver the “bad news.” She said that the computer is beyond economical repair due to tar from cigarette smoke! She said the hard drive is about to fail, the optical drive has failed and it isn’t feasible to repair the computer under the warranty. This computer is less than 2 years old! Only one person in my household smokes – one 21 year old college student. She said that I can get it repaired elsewhere at my expense. I asked why my warranty didn’t cover the repair and was told it’s an OSHA violation.
UPDATE:On Monday, reader Jeniffer wrote in that she has experienced the same problem with her Mac–in the last week.
I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working.
We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just
recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they
are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand
smoke due to OSHA violations.
Consumerist has tried repeatedly to obtain some kind of answer about these two cases from Apple’s media relations department, and we have received nothing on the record after months of waiting. Mostly, we’re curious what the threshold is for smoke damage to a computer, and why this is not mentioned in the Applecare contract.
(Photo: Sutanto Saputro ???)
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Dennis: I swallowed some apple seeds today.
Mac: Did you try throwing up?
Dennis: I tried, but I couldn’t.
Mac: Smoke some cigarettes. The smoke will suffocate the bacteria in your stomach.
[That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the image with the article.]
@SybilDisobedience: Can you use a toeknife near your Compy though?
@Excited_Utterance: I know how to fix the iMac. We tie a string around the cat, put the cat in the iMac, then yank. No, don’t get a bird, that won’t work.
@bwildrick: Cat in the iMac, eh?
@klwillis45: now you’re speaking my language!
@props-nyc: no, I didn’t call you just to talk about iMac!
@bainelaker: I couldn’t get in touch with iMac. I almost called the police.
@SybilDisobedience: the skins are full of toxins too!
Hmm… so the completely-sealed hard drive is “about to fail” and this magically has something to do with tobacco smoke? I can see (at a stretch) how the presence of a LOT of smoke might be harmful to the optical drive, since its mechanisms are somewhat exposed to the environment. Even if they were to replace both the hard drive and the optical drive, it seems like that’s a lot less than the value of a not-too-old iMac, though it doesn’t say how old the iMac was at the time of Dena’s statement.
@GearheadGeek: No, it sounds like they’re saying cigarette smoke residue is a biohazard and they won’t require they’re employees to repair a computer contaminated with biohazardous material.
@GearheadGeek: hard drives aren’t completely sealed, there’s a very small vent hole in them. not that it would cause smoke to be able to damage the drive, since it does have a filter, and it’s a single vent (to allow for pressure changes as the drive warms up, etc.)
I guess a voided warranty is a voided warranty though, and that’s assuming the drive internals are the problem, not the external controller board, or the system’s drive controller. (though the internals are more likely, in my experience with non-smoking computers)
@Andyf: yes but if the tar build up where to seal that vent, it might cause a failure. same thing if the various connectors and such were gunked up with tar and the dust it would trap
and the AppleCare conditions to say that user abuse and accidental damage are not covered.
plus we have only the customer’s word that what was said was said, how it was reported as having been said. for all we know the machine was examined, they were told it couldn’t be fixed under warranty due to the condition, which was likely caused by heavy or repeated smoking around the machine. the customer pulls a ‘then what am I supposed to do’ and was told to try carefully cleaning it out or taking it to a company that specializes in detailed internal cleaning (something the Apple Stores have never offered in or out of warranty to my knowledge) and when the customer retored ‘why can’t you do it, you have my machine there already’ was told that since OSHA lists nicotine and tar as hazard materials they can’t legally make the techs do such a service (because if the person got sick they could sue for worker’s comp etc)
@GearheadGeek: @NICU: asking the average user to disassemble and “clean up” a non user serviceable Macbook is an undue burden.
Having said that smokers computers are the worst thing I have ever had to work on.
@John: That’s what I came to say. I have PC repair customers who smoke, and their computer acts as a big air filter: there is a coating of gray-brown scum on everything in the airflow path.
If they have pets, it’s even worse.
@oldgraygeek: I agree 100% with Apple’s decision. I want to hate Apple for some obscure reason but I can not use this for it.
I have thrown out working computers which I had inherited from smokers. I wouldn’t expect a technician to work on a computer which had human feces inside or on it and I wouldn’t expect them to work with that nasty, sticky, goo substance either.
I would repair a toilet than a computer which has been smoked around. Yes smokers, it really is that disgusting to some of us. Hopefully knowing that helps you understand why we don’t want it anywhere near us when we’re eating in restaurants.
@GearheadGeek: I have seen the innards of computers belonging to chain-smokers. Some have thick layers of sticky tar on the wires and other parts. Some have so much tar built-up that the cooling fans don’t turn anymore. I’ve even seen an optical drive that “imprints” tar residues onto any inserted discs. I’m sure no sane tech would want to touch these. Not to mention to replace any components (hard drive, etc) in said computer requires handling of these sticky toxic cables and other parts.
So I think we need to see the insides of these computers before passing any judgement on Apple’s part.
My sister smokes & her PC was starting to do strange things, so she dropped the thing off to me. (I don’t smoke, and smoke makes me sick)
I opened up the case, and it looked like sticky-poop looking muck all over the PC – on top of the processor heat sink (just under the fan) was a layer of this muck. It’s like smoke in a solid form. Canned air would not even dint this muck – a screwdriver was about the only thing to work. It finally started to make me sick that I told her it was fried and she needed a new PC – it was beyond fixable.
I would guess the computers in the story was not this bad, but I can see the point of people not wanted to work on them… I will most likely never work on my sister’s computer again.
@coan_net: Not wanting to fix it because it’s gross and falsely labeling it a biohazard are two different things though =P.
@Covertghost: Biohazard is definitely a stretch, but you can definitely get sick from touching the gunky tar buildup. It can still have nicotine in it which will give you a pretty bad headache and the shakes if you’re a non smoker, ruining the rest of your day. I think it’s fair for Apple (or any electronics company) to say their employees don’t have to deal with that.
@Covertghost: Coan’s point wasn’t that it was gross, but that smoke (and smoke-related residues) make him/her sick. I can relate, I’m the same way. If it is a foreign substance that makes you ill, it’s a biohazard (at least for you).
That said, I think in the case of the original article above, that rotely labeling those computers as biohazards is silly and over-reactionary. I would agree with the person who suggested that the techs who sent them back were just looking for an excuse either not to work or not to fulfill warranties.
@Covertghost: If it makes the technician sick, it sure as hell is a biohazard. For those of us who have been technicians, the tell-tale signs of a smoker are always upsetting because things like OP described are more common than you’d think. Also, you might be surprised how much ash ends up inside computers and clinging to the parts in it.
I have a friend who is allergic to cigarette smoke. On several occasions, he has received machines that were permeated with cigarette ash and residue that he could not work on because they literally made him sick. Noone else, including smokers, would work on them because they were so disgusting.
We’re not talking about just smoke-smell and some staining at the air intakes.. that’s the “normal” damage to your computer caused by smoking. We’re talking about an amount of residue that destroys computers and makes them unfit to work on by technicians. The same goes for a computer covered in vomit or bodily fluids. We don’t work on those either.
I once worked on a computer that had a little bit of blood on it, but I certainly could have voided the wty and refused it for that (girl was super drunk, fell unconscious on her laptop, smashed face against keyboard, cutting her face, causing blood to drip into kb, requiring new kb.)
@ludwigk:
This is common sense. Apple did the right thing in this case (for once).
wow she shoulda used the money she spent on paying for the keyboard repair to go to rehab LOL
@coan_net:
You’re probably seeing dust mixed with tar – just as bad, but builds up faster than just tar. I worked at restaurant where the office was next to a grill – no fryer, just a grill. Anything was wasn’t cleaned daily eventially got a nice layer of gunk on it. The inside of her computer looked just like what I think you’re describing.
Apple’s in a tough spot here, since in order to work on the machine the tech is going to have to carefully scrub this stuff off the parts. Warranty doesn’t cover cleaning. I don’t agree with them claiming it’s a biohazard, but they shouldn’t have to clean a layer of grim off of the parts. Dust is one thing, as that can be airblasted away, but i don’t think it’s unreasonable of them to say “sorry, your machine is filthy and we don’t cover that”
@coan_net: I’ve encountered PCs like this too. They’re absolutely revolting, probably look something like the insides of a smoker’s lungs. On warranty calls, I always made sure to make a note of that sort of thing on the service provider’s record, too, since it’s not really a warranty issue– it’s customer damage since smoke residue kills electronics.
I also learned to put on the disposable nitrile gloves I used for working on printers. I learned the hard way that cigarette filth doesn’t wash off easily. Seriously, I would’ve rather dealt with a cat having taken a dump in their computer than the sticky smoke residue.
@coan_net: I can totally relate — I’ve worked on smokers’ computers before too, and I swear, it’s like the entire inside of the computer is sometimes a sickly, sticky, smelly shade of yellow.
However, IANAL, and I don’t know if since Apple didn’t list this specifically in the contract if they can use this as a defense or not, but the insides of smokers’ computers being declared a biohazardous waste zone? I can get behind that.
(TBH, I don’t care if you smoke or not when I’m working on your computer — I always wear gloves, anyway. However, smokers — smoke outside or something. :p )
@coan_net: Cans of air should NEVER be used to clean computers. You pull the dust out, using a vacuum, never just randomly blow it somewhere else, like maybe into or under a componant.
@secret_curse: Should be wearing gloves. I always do whenever I work on someone’s system
But isn’t that where they put a thick layer of thermal paste between the processor and heatsink?
There’s supposed to be goo there. Of course, if it looked the same as the rest of the computer then either it was tar or the thermal paste was discolored from same.
If the technician was able to tell that the Mac’s came from a smoking household, they must have been pretty exposed. Tar can cause things to break.
@CompyPaq: Exactly. If the smoke wasn’t an issue, how would the tech know they smoked?
Excessive smoke can damage components, and I hate to say it, but I can empathize with a tech who doesn’t want to work on a disgusting, smoked-up computer. I think a lot of smokers don’t realize how quickly and permanently that residue can build up. And it’s really gross!
@CompyPaq: You are right. People are in denial about what smoke does to things. One of the apartments where we lived had completely darkened yellow blinds b/c the occupants were smokers. They finally moved out. Also, the lady downstairs moved out b/c the previous occupants were smokers (Thank God they left b/c our apartment smelled like THEIR smoke) and the smell was so bad despite the walls being primed and repainted and new carpet being installed.
Smoke reaks havoc on people and things.
@CompyPaq: Yes, but: I’m sure water damage is mentioned in the warranty. Just add “tar damage” or something.
The issue isn’t that the computers were legitimately broken.. it’s that they blamed it on something else, and that the warranty doesn’t mention it.
Now, had the lady on the phone said “Sorry, the computer is broken because you covered it in crap (inadvertently), and we don’t cover that (spelled out in the warranty)” I would have completely agreed with her.
You can ALWAYS tell when people smoke by their computers.
They are always EXTREMELY dirty and smell, even with my bad nose I can tell.
The dirt is not a light dust thats more common with pet owners, its a heavy sticky dust that sometimes even an air compressor has a hard time getting rid of. It makes complete sense and I support Apple on this policy. Smokers computers are GROSS…
@endless: Given the testimony here from people who have worked on smoke-contaminated computers, I would support Apple if the words “smoke”, “cigarette”, or “OSHA” appeared on the AppleCare page or its FAQ. They don’t, however, so this comes out looking as a kind of fraud or theft.
@kexline:
Applecare terms and conditions: (PDF)
1. Repair Coverage
…
b. Limitations. The Plan does not cover:
…
(ii) Damage to the Covered Equipment caused by accident, abuse, neglect, misuse (including faulty installation, repair, or maintenance by anyone other than Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider), unauthorized modification, extreme environment (including extreme temperature or humidity), extreme physical or electrical stress or interference, fluctuation or surges of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, acts of God or other external causes;
Any of the terms I bolded could easily be used to deny this repair.
@HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.:
Until someone decides to sue. Then this all might go away.
“acts of God”?
“Acts of God” means things like lightning strikes or natural disasters.
The OSHA thing just means that apple can’t make an employee do it without safety equipment or whatever else OSHA requires, but that is still between Apple and their employee. They should still have to fulfill their responsibilities as a party in the warranty. They agreed that they would fix computers under certain terms. If smoke is not one of those terms, then Apple is just going to have to FIND a way to make it safe to work on. It’s not the customer’s responsibility to keep Apple’s workplace safe.
@ubermex: The customers should have the decency to clean up their computer before bringing it in. I’ve seen computers from smokers they’re disgusting.
@NICU:
So you execpt the average user to open thier laptop, take it apart and clean it before bringing it in?
But that voids the warrenty, oh, wait, WHAT warrenty?
@NICU: I’ve got to disagree with you. I would much rather have an unopened dirty computer that I have to work at a bit with gloves and a mask on, than a computer that’s been opened up, attempted to be cleaned, and possibly had more damage inflicted upon it because the owner didn’t know what they were doing.
I consider physically disinfecting a computer part of the job. I like giving the computer back to the owner in as pristine a condition as possible.
@ubermex: You are right. When an OSHA rule applies that just means you use the proper safety equipment or procedures, not that you just don’t do the task at hand.
If the nicotine, or whatever, is that bad get the Apple tech a respirator and a pair of nitrile gloves. Problem solved.
@ubermex: The apple warranty specifically excludes repairs due to user damage. If the fan is covered in tar, that’s user damage, and they have zero obligation to fix it.
If they had to explicitly name every possible instance of user damage, the warranty would be about 10,000 pages long. The short version: if YOU caused the problem, it ain’t covered.
@ubermex:
So now, Apple is trying to make it so people have to be careful about what others do to their laptop? Sorry, but user damage needs to be proven. Would cost more than the laptop was worth for Apple to prove it on a case by case basis. As for health hazard? If you aren’t repairing it, then you replace it.
A person would need to smoke 3 packs a day for it to build up that much within the term of the warranty, either that or Apple is at fault for poor ventilation on its laptops. Guess next step here is small claims court. Don’t forget to sue for the cost of the laptop and the warranty.
I am in utter disbelief. Citing OSHA? Really? Put on some damn gloves and fix these computers, Apple.
Sounds like corporate is trying to reduce their warranty overhead…at the expense of their customers that have habits they don’t philosophically side with. I state this with a fairly broad depth of experience…the systems did not fail due to smoke damage from secondhand smoke. Absurdly poor ventilation design would be the root cause…
@admiral_stabbin:
I agree that the health hazard may be a bit overstated but from the sounds of it there was tar visibly present on the internal components. Second hand smoke probably didn’t cause the problems, the buildup of sticky, nasty tar could have. This is not Apple’s fault and they shouldn’t have to pay to fix it.
@wgrune: I have never worked on a computer that had tar buildup like you described. Not even from a household that had two, two-pack/day smokers living there…that did not ventilate the home. They’ve both passed on (one died of a heart attack, the other from cancer), but their computer didn’t have any internal signs of tar buildup. The case, keyboard, and mouse were absolutely disgusting looking. But even they weren’t sticky…nasty, yes. Dark yellow, yes.
I cannot tell you how many times I’ve cleaned out peoples computers. The smokers computers are never much different (inside) than non-smokers.
Most of their current systems do a poor job of ventilation (excluding the Mac Pro). To try and pawn the situation off on their customers is horrible.
The Jordan Creek Apple Store is about two miles from where I sit typing this. The only time I’ve had a good experience there is when I say that I’m “just browsing” and don’t intend to buy anything. It’s a sad situation when the retail staff is so bad that you go to another retailer to buy a Mac. All of that being said, I’m not surprised in the least that they would pull this type of b.s.
@admiral_stabbin:
You’ve apparently been very lucky not to encounter one. The worst one I’ve seen was so far of tar/dust that ALL 4 Case fans, the GPU, and CPU fans were stopped because of it. There was a layer of the muck over the interior with the exception of the top of the case a little over an inch deep (No exaggeration) throughout the case.
I’ve seen a few just about as bad as that as well.
Since compressed gas won’t work on the stuff you can try using a piece of plastic to remove it but it kicks up residue into the air. I think it’s fairly safe to assume the residue is dangerous to an extent. In any case, Apple was well within its rights to void the warranty and it was indeed the right thing to do if the muck was that built up in the Mac.
@admiral_stabbin: Also: calcium carbonate is considered a hazmat? Really? “Evacuate the office! Somebody opened a bottle of Tums!”
I worked at the Apple Depot in Memphis for almost a year (friggin layoffs), and it was common practice to not work on machines that had horrible tar. Its not so much that they were hazardous (gloves!) but that there was so much that had to be done. Here in Memphis, most of the workers are lazy, and opening a machine and and seeing tar covered MLB, HDD, ODD, and LCD panel is grounds for BER status, no matter what it is. Hell, just the MLB, HDD, and ODD would be grounds for it to be put in requote or sent back as a biohazard. Thats just how it is.
Also, so people can’t say I didn’t work there and I have no clue what the hell I say, all of the apple techs are NOT apple employees. They are employed by Flextronics, so really no one cares.
I think the bio-hazard thing is a load of BS, but the smoking thing I’m not the least bit surprised by, and in fact having worked on machines owned by smokers, I can totally get behind it. I’ve never seen filthier machines (on the inside) than those used in the presence of cigarette smoke, the smoke lands on the computer components, making them sticky, and attracting immense amounts of dust (which then picks up more smoke, which picks up more dust, and on and on.) I’ve more than once had to resort to physically scraping the dust-goo off of components that were overheating because canned air (dust-off) didn’t have enough power to budge it.
Furthermore, some of the components of cigarette smoke are conductive, so there’s every chance that along with heat damage, electrical shorts could lead to the early demise of the computer.
Yes, this should probably be mentioned in the warranty more specifically, but i’m sure it’s covered under environmental damage legally speaking.
@Andyf: I could not agree with this more. The “OSHA” response is lame, so I can’t support Apple on that, but they should be able to deny the warranty by claiming that the device was tampered with/abused.
I, too, have had to clean smoker’s computers and it is a complete mess. Clearly, we cannot expect Apple to lay this all out in the warranty. I don’t think I’d get very far if I expected Apple to repair my laptop after I urinated all over it (even though this exact wording doesn’t exist in the warranty).
I don’t want to seem like I’m bashing the consumer, but this is exactly why I refuse to buy electronic equipment second-hand from smokers. The smoke causes nothing but problems. Look, we all have our vices, but everyone needs to do themselves a favor and protect their investments. Especially if it’s a $3k computer (holy cow that’s a lot of dough for a computer…)
About the only detrimental effect I can think of, coming from cigarette smoke, would be to build up on the electronics and cause overheating … which is what happened to Derek. But mere dust — which is found to some degree in every human-inhabited location — is usually present in much larger amounts. Unless someone is exhaling directly into the air intake or places the burning cigarette in front of it, I can’t see that it would cause a serious problem.
As for smoke residue being a bio-hazard … that would be funny, if not for the fact that Apple won’t honor the warranty it sold Ruth.
@PsiCop: I once saw the insides of an IBM Model 55 that had spent 20 years in an unheated / un-air conditioned sawmill in South Carolina, running a CNC milling machine. They had called a technician becuase the Model 1814 monitor had died. Once the monitor was pulled out of the custom housing the cause of death was easily identified. There was a layer of sawdust 1/2 inch thick coating everything. The technician also performed a bit of preventative maintenance by also removing the 1/2 of sawdust from the inside of the PC. I wonder what the Apple techs would have said about that….
I think Ruth is oversimplifying OSHA’s standards. She lists several things which are perfectly safe in some ways, and incredibly dangerous in others. Hydrogen peroxide, for example, is used to clean wounds – that’s true. However, it can be dangerous if it is consumed or gets into your eyes. Diluted, it can look colorless, so it could even look like water. Also, it can irritate and damge the skin.
Talc is used in talcum powder, but in certain concentrations, can be harmful to one’s health. Isopropyl alcohol is extremely flammable, and is dangerous if injested, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin.
These aren’t OSHA standards for the workplace, these are standards set for all workplaces. Even if you don’t ever intend to encounter a puddle of hydrogen peroxide near a computer, it applies.
@pecan 3.14159265: These are not standards for the Apple workplace, is what I meant to say. They’re set for all workplaces in which contact with certain listed substances is not normal. For instance, hydrogen peroxide would be normal at a hospital, but not so much at a coffee shop.
@pecan 3.14159265: Yes, but is the small amount of nicotine in the smoke residue inside a computer, a large enough amount to be toxic? I’ve worked on lots of computers in my life, including some that I assume must have had some tobacco-smoke in them, but it is at best a small amount of smoke residue, and within that, how much nicotine can there be?
@PsiCop: Enough to make me sick. I react badly to nicotine, and the tar/nicotine film that heavy smoking deposits on surfaces will make my skin turn red and, in bad cases, cause nausea.
Yes, the hazard to the tech could be avoided with a set of nitrile gloves and a respirator. The hazard to the computer, on the other hand, isn’t so easy. Plating every surface inside a computer with goo (which may be conductive) and the dust that sticks to the goo (which causes overheating) is not a good thing. I’d certainly list that under “abuse and neglect”. The big problem, from Apple’s point of view is that cleaning that computer, before they can even start diagnosing and repairing it, is a multi-hour job. You need to tear everything down (that stuff gets in EVERYWHERE) and go at it with swabs and solvents. So a job … say, a keyboard swap … that might take 15 minutes in normal circumstances suddenly becomes a four hour job. Apple prices their warranties on the assumption that they will do, on average, X amount of work per buyer. Abused computers — whether the contaminant is smoke residue or Pepsi residue — throw that estimate way off. People who take proper care of their computers would resent having to pay for those who dump Pepsi all over them … or coat them in smoke goo.
A few other odds and ends:
Hard drive platters are usually sealed, yes, but their electronics aren’t. That goo can short, corrode, or otherwise mess up those circuits and cause failure. (so can Pepsi and other things that should never be introduced into computers)
OSHA has standards for all sorts of things.
Peroxide, for instance: The diluted form you buy in the drugstore can be used as an antiseptic. The concentrated form you buy from chemical supply companies can be used as rocket fuel. As a monopropellant. Peroxide torpedo propellant is believed to be the cause of the explosion that sank the Soviet nuclear submarine Kursk. It’s also one hell of an oxidizer.
Isopropyl alcohol is another good example. It’s toxic if you drink it. It’s highly flammable. It can react with other chemicals. The fumes are a nasty irritant. I’d have to check with a CIH, but I’m fairly sure that breathing them for more than a brief period goes beyond ‘irritant’. Just because you can buy some in little bottles at Wal-Mart doesn’t mean it isn’t a hazard when you have 55-gallon drums of the pure version stacked up in your factory.
Chlorine. Read the warnings on a box of chlorine pool shock some time. Don’t touch it, breathe it, be in the same ecosystem with it, etc. Chlorine gas is lethal. Chlorine is another strong oxidizer, and reacts with just about everything. Damn straight OSHA lists it as a hazardous substance, because it most emphatically is.
In a lot of cases, it’s all about concentration and explosure. Sound isn’t a bad thing, right? We hear stuff all the time. But when you’re listening to a jackhammer you’re using, and you’re listening to it for 8 hours a day, you can go deaf. So there are exposure limits for sound, based on decibel level and exposure time, and standards for protective equipment (read: earplugs) to mitigate the hazard.
Or oxygen. You need it to live, but too much of it will kill you. Liquid oxygen can be fun to play with if you want to not just light your BBQ grill but remove it from this plane of existence (google for remarkable pics).
There’s also the question of whether what Ruth looked up was in fact a list of available MSDS sheets (yes, I know that’s redundant, like PIN number). There’s a MSDS for basically everything. Water, for example. Why would you need an MSDS for water? Because it lists things it shouldn’t be stored with or exposed to. Alkali metals, for instance. Water + Sodium is all sorts of fun, if you like that kind of thing.
As for nicotine … the lethal dose in humans is approximately 0.5-1.0 mg/kg, and it is readily absorbed through the skin. So going with the high end of that, a 150-pound tech could be killed by 68 mg of the stuff. Possibly as little as half of that. For those of you uncomfortable with the metric system, there are 28,000 milligrams to an ounce; you do the math. Is someone going to absorb enough nicotine from working on a goo-coated computer to kill them? Doubtful. Absorbing enough to make them sick, on the other hand, is very possible. Google “green tobacco sickness”.
So yeah, there could be an impressive layer of crud (I once had to wait for someone to, among other things, scrape the crud off apartment windows with a razor blade before I could move in). It could make the tech sick. Probably more important to Apple, it could make a repair time go way over its time budget. The fact that it’s a foreign substance and a contaminant inside the computer (just like a can of Pepsi) almost certainly brings it under the “abuse and neglect” part of the service plan.
So, in short, Apple doesn’t have to fix it, just like they wouldn’t fix a computer that got flooded with soda.
@Worldwalker:
There’s a big difference between Apple saying, “We won’t fix it because the computer has been abused,” and saying, “We’re not legally allowed to fix it because nicotine is a bio-hazard.” The former is something I would accept. The latter just doesn’t cut it.
I used to work as a tech at an independent PC store/repair centre and once in a while someone would bring in a *nasty* unit filled with smokey yellow carpets of who-knows-what.
Screw anyone who smokes around a computer.
Most warranties may not state that smoke may be the cause but I have a feeling there are lines in the warranty contract that state damage from misuse or using in a non suitable environment voids warranty. Also, I just thought I share some photos of what smoke damage might do to a machine.
[i47.tinypic.com]
This first photo is the bottom cover of a lenovo after removing the systemboard, you can see where the smoke traveled around the system. Smoke pretty much cover the systemboard.
[i50.tinypic.com]
This second photo (sorry slightly blurry) shows a fan covered in tar from a smoker. They were having overheating issues because the fan wasn’t spinning.
@zomgorly: This is pretty much my thoughts on it. Odds are, if they noticed the buildup, then it’s the buildup that’s causing the issue, and that is something that the user did to their own equipment. Environments with unclean air are quite harsh on computers, and there is probably something in the warranty about this, even if it doesn’t specify cigarette smoke.
Good pictures too. I wish i had some around from when I did this kind of work to show right now. The amount of buildup that is possible is truly shocking.
@zomgorly: Those photos are a real shocker.
I wish there was a way to rate your post up because until I saw the photos I thought Apple was being ridiculous but after seeing them I think Apple might be on to something.
Those pics are completely accurate – especially the one of the fan. Dust sticks to the tar like a flytrap. More tar sticks to the dust, and the process repeats.
I take my fans out every couple of months to clean them off. And even as a smoker, I wear a dust mask because that stuff gets airborne very easily and will make me sick.
Add another reason to deny a claim: bio-hazards (broad category), cigarette smoke, dust, dirt, water, etc… so basically Best Buy has set the standard for denying warranty claims. Apple is now setting the bar yet higher by adding secondhand smoke. The only way to fix this mess is to have the government regulate warranties by forcing contracts to explicitly list everything they don’t cover and if it’s not listed, they must repair it. Again, avoid warranties since they are all profit to the company since all claims are DENIED!
If only companies were as creative about trying to help customers rather than ripping them off.
Ever work on a smokers machine? YUCK! It gets all gooey inside and does cause fans to fail a lot sooner then they should.
If you smoke Light Cigarettes, is there less dust on the computer than smoking Full-Flavored Cigarettes??
@lehrdude: “light” cigarettes are just as damaging to your health as regular cigarettes, so why should they be any less damaging to your computer?
The solution is simple: don’t smoke.
I’ve seen some really bad machines covered in smokers dirt too. Most just require a good cleaning, but it’s certainly possible that the smoke & tar have gummed something up so bad that it needs a repair/replacement.
And if that happened, it shouldn’t be covered under warranty.
@eskimo81:
Agreed, That stuff is almost impossible to get rid of and you risk damaging the components even attempting to do so in some cases because you can’t simply use dust-off on it.
Without seeing actual pictures of the machine in question it’s hard for the OP to make an argument saying he’s been wronged but from experience I’d say Apple had EVERY RIGHT to void the warranty.
@eskimo81:
My neighbor complained their computer kept crashing so I went over to fix it. I saw that their CPU was running very hot so opened up the case to look at the fan.
The heatsink was one massive ball of caked on tar. I couldn’t even scrape it off. Had to buy a whole new fan. Disgusting.
Hrm. [www.apple.com] (PDF)
They’re declaring smoking to the point where they can tell by simply opening the computer an improper environment.
@chiieddy:
I argued against this clause in arbitration when I sued Apple for jerking me around on an AppleCare repair. A plain reading of the clause says that only the damage caused by the improper environment, etc is not covered, NOT that the warranty becomes void if there is an improper environment or evidence of abuse.
Thus, if I drop my computer and break the trackpad, the screen is still covered if it dies independently of that drop (i.e. several months later). Alternatively, if, as happened to me, something breaks on the computer (which Apple didn’t fix right), the I drop the laptop and dent the case, the first thing is covered by the warranty, but the dented case is not.
The only provision of the AppleCare contract that provides for cancellation of the warranty requires Apple to refund the cost of the AppleCare on a pro-rata basis minus the cost of any repairs previous done under AppleCare. Without Apple paying, they cannot void the AppleCare warranty in its entirety without being in breach of the contract.
Since it’s Apple that is saying that smoking caused the damage to the computer, they are the ones who have to prove it.
I suggest the OPs take this to their local small claims court. FWIW, I won $830 from Apple using this very argument. I would be happy to forward them a copy of my written complaint to the Court which sets down my argument regarding the contract. The Court/arbitrator ignored my (beautifully written) complaint because written complaints/motions are not allowed in Small Claims in New York, but it is a good summary of my argument regarding Apple’s “voiding” of AppleCare.
@chiieddy:
No, I would say that smoking around the computer would be classified under “neglect and misuse’. I have worked on plenty of cigarette-stained computers, and its disgusting. It all comes down to the tech working on it if they want to do it. I have passed some filthy ones to other techs, and vise-versa. They do have computer vacuums to clean stuff up also.
Maybe Apple needs to put some chemical or odor sensors inside the computers and have it display a message or auto shutoff if it ‘senses’ too much second-hand smoke.
It’s simple. Apple doesn’t want to force its employees to work on a smoker’s computer, because sooner or later those employees will turn around and sue Apple for exposing them to “secondhand smoke” and its residue.
@cmdrsass: Unless the customer comes with the computer and lights up, the techs aren’t going to be exposed to secondhand smoke
@cmdrsass: And don’t even start with the pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo about “third hand smoke”.
Seems to me that smoking in the workplace is still a common-enough occurrence that Apple should be obligated to state in their warranty that they reserve the right to void a warranty in the event of serious smoking-related residue. Otherwise, I think the customer has a small claims case.
Now, that said, I do think it would make sense for Apple to have language in their warranty to the effect that excessive dirt or dust or other material arising from airborne dirt or smoke or other contaminants can, at their discretion, void the warranty.
I’ve seen (and worked on) computers that have been completely gross because of the environment in which they’re used. But I do think the customer should be warned, in plain language, about the potential for a warranty to be voided as a result of that sort of exposure.
I’d say that anyone who’s worked on a smoker’s computer knows exactly why these computers were denied warranty. It’s hard to believe how much cigarette residue accumulates inside a computer unless you’ve opened one up.
When I worked as a bench tech for a electronics manufacturer, I would routinely deny warranty if and when the customer allowed a foreign substance to get inside a piece of equipment. Yes, cigarette residue is a foreign substance.
Secondhand smoke kills your computer!
Secondhand smoke makes your Xbox RROD!
Secondhand smoke causes global warming!
Secondhand smoke broke up the Beatles!
Secondhand smoke canceled Firefly!
You can blame secondhand smoke for everything!
If apple is charging extra for applecare, they have a duty to let customers know what is and isn’t covered. If apple thinks smoking around computers is a bio hazard they should say so up front. Not after the fact.
If a warranty wouldn’t cover water damage caused by a user deliberately pouring liquids on a computer, why would it cover other damage specifically caused by the user, however unintentionally?
I used to be a Mac Genius, and believe me when I say a heavy smoker’s computer can easily be damaged by tar. This was back in like 2002 though, and I was at no point given instruction to not fix computers whose innards were tar-coated.
It coats every surface (especially near the fan) with an almost fluorescent, translucent orange resin that absolutely REEKS of ashtray. The smell is beside the point, but smoking near computers with fans will results in a lot of residue all over the inside.
In can (and does) gum things up (like fans), coats optical sensors, etc. Bad news.
If you’re irrational enough to buy a Mac, you should be irrational enough to accept their argument here.
If Applecare does not list “second-hand smoke” as a reason for voiding the warranty then I suggest these people take it up with their State’s Attorney General and their local news station. Both are very easy to get to.
“. . . nicotine is on OSHA’s list of hazardous substances . . .”
My understanding is that nicotine is not really the cancer causing part of cigarettes. It’s all the other crap. Nicotine gets you kinda high, makes your brain work faster, and is addictive, but not really hazardous on it’s own.
@He: “Nicotine gets you kinda high, makes your brain work faster, and is addictive, but not really hazardous on it’s own. “
IIRC the numbers from my psychopharmacology course, LD/ED is around 3-4. FDA doesn’t like anything less than 10.
if it wasnt in the EULA that they couldnt agree to before they bought the computer, i dont think that apple is right on this one.
Hmmmm…so if I smoke a cig, then write a check to pay them for a computer – would they not accept my check?
@DoubleK63: That doesn’t even make sense. The check will not be damaged by the smoke. The check will not have tar build-up from the smoke. No one will have to be in significant contact with the check.
Typewriters never fail from too much smoke. Time to go back to old Underwood!
@Triterion: If anything, it makes them work better.
Try getting it repaired at an Apple-certified repair facility where they do the work in-house. Small Dog in Vermont has a fantastic, certified repair arm that is run by amazing folks and can be billed back against your AppleCare certification.
@godospoons: When I worked there, you couldn’t mail in for a repair, so unless you’re local to northern vermont (who is??) SmallDog themselves are not an option…
the service center where I work now may be more liberal with applecare, but in the case of a smoke damaged computer, the tech’s kindness may be heavily dependent on how nice you are when you bring the computer in, since working on that and fudging the paperwork for you is entirely at their discretion.
I think the simply solution to this problem is to stop smoking and eliminate these problems completely. If you ever go into the home of a smoker you’ll notice everything has a yellow tinge and I’m guessing that anything with a fan in it (like a computer) will look a whole lot worse, trust me, I’ve seen the damage it does.
If the damage is really caused by cigarette smoke, I agree i should not be covered under warranty. If the computer is defective and just happens to smell like smoke, I can kind of see Apple’s point–I know I wouldn’t want to stick my face in something smelling like that–but it should probably be stated somewhere in the warranty that smoking around the computer voids the warranty.
It’s hard to judge without pictures, but as someone who repaired computers for several years, I can say that the tar and nicotine residue that builds up from frequent exposure to second hand smoke can be a health hazard. We would only repair them if the customer paid extra for a cleaning first, and that involved protective eye wear and face masks.
Of the “nastiest” machines I have ever worked on all but one were owned by smokers. Generally the grime clogs up CPU, Video, System and PSU fans. Replacing those parts and a nice clean out would usually fix it. It’s a rather disgusting job and a PITA on a laptop.
The absolute worst system I ever worked on was from local Garage, it was full all sorts of dust as it was in the shop next to their brake station. (Yum! ASBESTOS!) I replaced the components that had fans with silent versions using passive cooling. The only weak spot was the PSU, at the time it was hard finding a quality one without a fan, but we settled on one with a massive fan that would hold up better against the dust. It’s been stable since then as far as I know.
As for Apple voiding the warranty for this issue, I do understand why they would do it, and I’d guess they have a policy in place where an employee can refuse to work on such a machine without repercussion, otherwise if the warranty (extended or otherwise) was void I’m sure they would fix it for a fee.
So I’ve been an IT guy for almost 20 years, build most of my own machines, and have never smoked a day in my life. I used to work, a long time ago, and an HP, Dell, and Apple repair center. I’d really like to know what kind of “Test” they do to determine it was in a smokers house? If it’s a sniff test, or some kind of chemical wipe, you can get that from just about anywhere you travel. Sound like both of these people need to file a complaint with the State AG’s office, and file a small claims suit in small claims court.
@all4jcvette: Well, if it’s an iMac, how much does it travel? Chances are, if you can tell it’s been around smokers, it’s in a smoking home.
Spell out the smoking exclusion very obnoxiously clearly before the customer buys the computer AND the warranty.
This is a crappy business practice. Just grab the hard drive and give them a refurb.
If it’s not covered there needs to be a something in the contract to explain that. To me it’s just another reason to void warranties, not that damage is not done by smoking (especially heavy smoking) and it’s nasty.
They tried to use it to deny fixing my wife’s TiBook’s keyboard, saying they didn’t cover smoking. Well, she has smoke induced asthma…not just mild, but bad enough it could put her in the hospital if she puffed. Even though I could see no smoke damage, I almost had to pull her medical record to prove it before they quit their bitching.
I know I might be jumping the gun on this, and I suggest going through every other possible channel before hand, but..
..Small claims?
I understand that smoking can cause gunk build-up, but where in the Applecare warranty package does it say that it voids the warranty?
I think a judge would have a differing opinion than Apple when it comes to warranty obligations.
Slightly unrelated, but I cannot even tell you how many xbox 360 trade ins I refuse at gamestop because the system casing (which is SUPPOSED to be white) is brownish yellow due to exposure to cigarette smoke. And they stink like hell! Who would ever want to buy that?!
Having worked in the electronics repair industry, smoking around your equipment a lot deposits stick tar residue on it. The tar picks up airborne contaminants. The contaminants then:
- Overheat the components
– Are mildly conductive and short out items
– Are ridiculously gross
Considering that overheating components and shorting out components are the biggest causes of failure for most things, I can see why they would refuse repairing a device that, quite literally, was destroyed by the user’s own actions.
You wouldn’t believe the tar and smoke crap I cleaned out of my typewriter to get it into working condition again.
Normally, most everything Apple does strikes me as anticompetitive and evil. This, however, I wholeheartedly applaud. That stuff is the most disgusting thing I ever encountered working IT.
I’m what you might call a former casual smoker. I’ve worked on some computers of my heavier smoking friends and relatives and the layers of tar and dust built up inside of them was heavily concentrated and made me a bit nauseous just getting a whiff upon opening the case. This coming from someone that smoked at the time. So I can imagine how sickly it might make a nonsmoker.
While I’m sympathetic to the rights for smokers to have the choice and freedom to do so, that right doesn’t extend to subjecting a nonsmoker to their toxic results. My advice would be to try and find a local certified repair shop that may not mind working on such a machine and not raise a concern.
Another thing to consider here that is that a dust/smoke/tar combo is not simply dust and does contain toxic and corrosive chemicals and also does manifest in a different physical form, becoming a coated, gooey substance on the electrical components that often can reduce their lifespan significantly.
Here is the relevant part of Apple’s standard warranty:
“This warranty does not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as batteries, unless damage has occurred due to
a defect in materials or workmanship; (b) to cosmetic damage, including but not limited to scratches, dents
and broken plastic on ports; (c) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (d) to damage caused
by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes;”
Cigarette smoke/tar would fall under damage caused by other external causes, essentially.
Apple did bad?
How dare they, now we can’t critize PC because Apple is the same.
Oh, that is right, Apple is worse than PC. Anybody remember the finger pointing between Apple and Adobe?
Sounds like it’s a case for small claims court.
sounds like a design flaw to me. if air isnt supposed to get in there they should figure out another way to cool it.
#1 – It isn’t in MY applecare warranty that they won’t repair it if I smoke, however they do list other reasons. Also, there are many occupations where people deal with OSHA-rated hazardous chemicals. So that ain’t no kind of answer.
#2 – I got a macbook from a former user that smoked. For almost a year it would make me nauseous, really nauseous, if I ever used it long enough for it to get warm and start to REALLY SMELL. I wiped it with alcohol wipes over and over again, vacuumed it, etc. but really it just took time.
So, I understand, but they are going to need to update the verbiage for their contracts.
Speaking as a smoker, yes I know what tar does. I also know that to get the levels people keep bitching about you seriously have to smoke around it.
However, smoking is perfectly legal as far as I’m aware in your own home… unless you Americans have gone that big brother already.
If the documentation does not specifically state smoking around it violates the machines warranty then Apple needs to send a tech out, put some gloves on and get busy with the fizzy.
What next “Sorry, can’t repair that, you own a cat and it could be an alergen”.
@SarahKH: Smoking is legal. the problem is that a smoked filled environment is neglect tot he pc and damage from neglect is not covered. Its as simple as that.