Here’s some advice for you, the regular customer who doesn’t shoplift: never go into the back of a store with a security guard, store manager, rent-a-cop, etc. Never. Someone posted the following story in the Janesville, Wisconsin CraigsList over the weekend. Because the poster cooperated in good faith with the security personnel at her local Menards home store, she had to pay $150 to avoid having the police called on her.
(I’ve edited the post for clarity and punctuation.)
So I will start off saying my husband and I have been shopping at Menards since they opened and because of our business we are there almost daily and sometime twice a day. This afternoon [November 7th, 2009] we came for the second time to get lumber and paint. I just bought my husband a surprise drywall gun last night from Menards so in exchange he thought it would be nice to look at a new drill for me.
I have had my eye on a light weight compact cordless so we started comparing them. He noticed a complete set of 2 drills, bat, chargers and so on but they were not on display, just in the box. Well I opened the box so I could see how light they are and they were perfect for me. I picked everything up that I removed from the box and stuffed it back in the box and set it in the cart. I tried to close the top of the box however because i removed everything it would not go back in place, So I left the box open.
We had several items in our cart and within a minute I found some drill bits to go with my new set so I tossed the small package in the cart. I turned my back to talk to my husband about more bits and some guy comes cruising around the corner grabs my cart and takes off walking very fast. “HEY you have my cart!” I yelled to the guy as he was already down the aisle. He let go of the cart said sorry and disappeared around the corner leaving my cart. I walked down, grabbed the cart, and came back to my husband. Very strange we both thought but we just continued shopping.
Over to building materials we went before checking out. We checked our items out (over $300.00) and the cashier never questioned the open box or looked inside.
We leave the store and a man walks up and asks for our receipt. My husband went to pull it out of his wallet and before he gets it out the guy reaches into the drill box and pulls out the small pack of drill bits. He looks at us and said you took these. We replied oh they must have been missed we will come back in and pay for them.
The guy who we now know as security asked us to come back inside. We went inside expecting to pay for the $5.99 drill bits and he tells us we have to fill out an incident paper.
They take our cart full of $300.00 worth of stuff and lead us into the security room. Inside the room we are sitting in silence while this guy is filling out paperwork and a lady that works as a CSM(?) is standing guard at the door like we are hard criminals ready to flee the country.
After several minutes of silence I ask if I am being charged for something. The security man said no I just need you to fill out this paperwork and give me your drivers license.
So I hand over my license and he said to me that he’d seen the drill bits on top of the open box then he’d seen us walk into the checkouts and not pay for them. I could not believe what I was hearing. I told him over and over this is a mistake I threw the bits in the cart and they must have landed on the box. The guard then said maybe they slipped further in the box when you moved your cart. He said well that sounds like you’re just having bad luck. My husband asked if they’d seen me put the package in the box. He would not respond.
He then told me I have 2 choices. I can pay Menards $150.00 or they will call the police and charge me with theft and a $350.00 fine. We could not believe what was happening. CHARGE ME WITH THEFT! JUST BAD LUCK??? What is happening! Have they gone crazy!
I have thrown items in my cart many times and never thought twice about it. I understand if the bits were in my pocket or hidden under everything in the box but they were on top of a opened box that the cashier never even looked in the box. Honest mistake is what I call it not bad luck or theft.
So now I am in tears and faced with a choice I never thought I would make in my life. We run a professional business and I would never want to risk my reputation by being hauled out of Menards in front of everyone by the police. I was told to sign the paperwork and pay the $150.00 to avoid this from happening. So I signed and paid what they called a restitution. They refused to give me a copy of the paperwork I signed. Then they sent us on our way with tears in my eyes. I went quietly but I can’t let this go.
“Just having bad luck???? (Beloit Menards)” [janesville.craigslist.org] (Thanks to M!)
(Photo: TheTruthAbout…)
More From Consumerist
-
Kroger Manager Fired For Allegedly Attacking Man Who Handed Out Food In Parking Lot
-
Petition Calls On White House To Require TSA To Seek Public Comment On Full-Body Scanners
-
Comcast E-Mail Rep Needs A Lot Of Words To Say 'I Have No Power To Help You'
-
Pepsi Pulls Mountain Dew Ads Following Complaints Of Racial Stereotyping, Violence Against Women
-
Woman Told She Was Too Fat To Tan Given Refund, Free Tanning Elsewhere
I’m sad that everyone is blaming her for this so vehemently. You know, there are a lot of honest people that would be so surprised by that situation that they’d be mentally unprepared for action.
Lay off, sheesh.
Whenever someone threatens you with two options, one of which being much worse, it is ALWAYS a bluff! They’re just trying to trick you into accepting the less-bad option. Its really obvious if you consider what the security guard said. Menards doesn’t own the police and the judiciary. Menards can’t issue you a $350 fine nor can they insist the police do it. Menards is painfully aware that this wouldn’t hold up on court. If it would, they’d surely go after you for more money.
I know this because I do it too. When I catch a student cheating, I know that the school will ALWAYS accept the students bogus explanation as to why they brought notes into the exam. So, the only for me to see justice done is to bluff. “Listen Johnny, I’m going to level with you. Either take a zero on this exam or I’ll go to *make up official sounding name* and get you kicked out.”
So this page seems to have the relevant shoplifting statutes from Wisconsin: [www.pcgsolutions.com]
@floraposte: Notice how it says “intent” over and over again. It would be difficult to prove intent in this case.
Everyone is telling them how to be badass.
problem is this situation came about quickly and unexpectedly.
There is a lesson to be learned here.
Never Sign ANYTHING without reading it.
More importantly this poster likely has a lawyer so a call should have been made to them and your statement to the security guard is I am not allowed to sign anything without my lawyer handling it.
I hope the poster has returned their $300 purchase.
@Ronin-Democrat: Agreed, I can see myself being so shaken in this situation that I wouldn’t think to call the police either. I completely agree that they should have returned their entire purchase.
Even if the police agreed with the store and gave her a ticket to appear in court
Chances are the DA will see it as a waste of time and will dismiss it and/or the judge will laugh it out of court.
Regardless, this poster sounds really annoying. Registers low on the sympathy scale and even a little suspicious with the crazy mystery cart-thief story.
@The Dude: And you are a private security guard where, Dude??
I suspect you have a defective sympathy scale. Perhaps you should return it for one that works.
@Damocles57: He’s just cranky because his rug got stolen. Not that I blame him, though; it really tied the room together.
Some great articles on the founder of Menard’s here…He’s nuts:
How John Menard got beaten by his own attorney:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]
Big Money:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]
Legal Hell:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]
@Melt: Damn, that was some excellent reading.
You just bought the security department pizza and beer!
I would not sign anything if I was innocent
Who wrote this, Ralph and Alf?
The mysterious man who runs off with your cart and then quickly disappears around a corner makes me think that either:
a) The security gaurd is working with the mysterious cart stealer.
b) The OP is trying to cover up with some kind of weird story.
If the product is hidden enough for a cashier not to notice it, but the security gaurd knew it was in there, then either the security gaurd had to watch them put it in there, or was working with this “mysterious cart-stealer” to put it in there.
If the store has security cameras, I would want to see the recordings to see what the heck actually went on with this strange cart-stealing person (if he actually exists)
People opening boxes in a store happens, and it seems like it would be an easy way to steal something if you wanted to. You could then make up an easy excuse like “oh, it must have just fallen in”.
As entertaining as the OPs story is, the idea that a security guy works out a plot with a mysterious person, to run off with carts and hide product inside of already open boxes in order to extort restitution payment seems less likely than this being ficticous.
Menards supports illegal detention and extortion? Blimey.
I would have taken my gamble with the cops. Hopefully they would have had more common sense than that stupid security guard. Cops don’t like frivolous complaints.
Does anybody else find it suspicious that after they placed the open box item in their cart, followed shortly by the $5.99 set of drill bits, that somebody came out of nowhere and took off with their cart until he was stopped before making it to the end of the aisle? The paranoid in me is screaming that whole thing sounds sort of like a set up. You’ve got a guy that quickly takes the cart, most likely jostling it as he goes. Which would allow for smaller items, the drill bits, the slip down into the box. Now the people are preoccupied by the fact that somebody just tried to make off with their cart, forget about the last item they put into the cart and head to the checkout. It doesn’t help that the person working the register didn’t catch the drill bits. Once everything is paid for, the security guard walks up to them once they’ve exited the store and almost immediately finds the drill bits. Then, once they’re in the back room, this same security guard makes a crack about how they’re having “bad luck.”
Again, that’s the paranoid in me speaking. But it still sounds ridiculously shady, especially the refusing to give you a copy of the document you just signed. Which, I’m pretty sure, may be against the law, depending on where this took place.
Jeez, it looks as if store chains have figured out yet another pathetic way to squeeze money out of customers — perish the thought they would EVER reduce the salary of their top execs!
I would definitely write to Menards corporate and find out if this payoff is their policy — or the policy of the local store or what.
If it is company policy — I would find another store that doesn’t extort and humiliate customers in this way. I’d even consider ordering stuff online — you’d probably get free shipping with a purchase over a certain amount, and you might be able to save on sales tax to boot.
I would have offered to drive with them to the police station and take a lie detector test right then and there. Of course it might be more complicated than that to arrange for one! They are not available on demand. But just letting them know you’re willing to go that far might help to prove it was truly an accident and you’re serious about clearing your good name.
You see, it starts simple. Security tags on everything we buy. They are there to ‘prevent theft and keep prices low.’ I mean, ‘If you aren’t a criminal then it shouldn’t bother you’.. until you get home and can’t open your CD/DVD or find that your new jeans have a huge non-removable security tag pinned to them still.
When people get used to that idea, and the stores want to impose a little more on us, it’s on to the receipt checks at the doors. They are there to ‘prevent theft and keep prices low.’ But again, ‘If you aren’t a criminal then it shouldn’t bother you.’ You can search this very site for yourself and find plenty of problems that arose from receipt checks at the doors.
And now what have we come to? This story. But it’s ok because they are doing it to ‘prevent theft and keep prices low.’ And really, ‘If you aren’t a criminal then this shouldn’t bother you.’
Couldn’t she just say this?
“It was an unintentional mistake, and I didn’t notice the drill bits. I’d be happy to pay for the drill bits or leave them here and shop elsewhere. Either way, I will now be leaving. If you attempt to stop me, I will call the police and press charges against you for false imprisonment. Good day.”
I think the problem a lot of times is that even if you are innocent you happened to do something that is the MO of real shoplifters and jaded security guards and police officers might just turn a deaf ear to your ‘it was a mistake’ explanations.
ANyhow, if someone believe I did something wrong and threaten to call the police, I would probably tell them to go ahead because I would trust the police to make the right decision. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always happen, as we have seen in some receipt-check instances. In addition, you can’t be sure if the security guard might embellish things a bit, just to make sure you fit the shoplifter profile to a dot with the police. If I had a suspicion that this might happen, I might also go with the $150 ‘fee’. However, I would make sure to get copies of everything I signed, and if I had already signed and didn’t get it, to prove everything was solved, I would be calling the police myself.
When it’s all said and done, if this story is exactly like it is told here, it is very bad judgment on the part of Menards. I used to work retail and we could not risk accusing anyone of shoplifting unless we were 110% sure. Better to let 3 get away than accuse an innocent person in front of everyone. This si likely to cost Menards more in lost revenue than they could ever make up in loss prevention this way.
Sounds like whatever was signed, was signed in duress, making the contract voidable.
Call Menards upper management, call the cops. It sounds like you didn’t do anything wrong, and that the store definitely did.
Good luck.
At least if you shoplift at Walmart, they won’t try to extort you; they call the cops everytime. Drives the cops crazy in these parts. At one Walmart I went to, about 9/10 times I went there would be cops out front.
Its essential to understand what exactly the OP signed. Second, for what exactly did she pay $150 ? The article seems to say that this was restitution. Restitution for what ?
Its quite possible the OP signed and admitted to theft and agreed to pay restitution in exchanged for the store dropping charges.
So …. this all could have been avoided by not showing your receipt? Amirite?
Every time I see the title of this page on my Firefox tab, I only see “You’re a Cri…” and I keep thinking it says “You’re a Criminal, Charlie Brown!”…
She paid $150 and received no paperwork and no receipt. I smell a scam by the security guard. Go back to the store and get paperwork from the manager or district manager.
“I can pay Menards $150.00 or they will call the police and charge me with theft and a $350.00 fine.”
Where do they get this $350 figure? Is it the standard local court fine for convicted shoplifters?
I’ve always wondered why people think it is ok to open merchandise in the store. If I EVER had to do this, I would take it over to a customer service department or have a sales associate open the box for me so they take on the responsibility of opening the product.
OP, Consumerist : can we see details of the document that was signed by OP. That may reveal all !
If accused of a crime by any store LPO or the police do not talk to them without your attorney. Period. Anything you say will be used against you! Notice, there is absolutely NO requirement for any exculpatory statement to be included.
Please watch this if you haven’t already:
[video.google.com]
Ok one thing you are all forgetting here is this happened in a small town in WISCONSIN !? If you called the police likely the guy that showed up would be the brother in law of the rent a cop and then you would be faced with a “How Much You Got Boy?” Fine. The OP did the right thing, get away then draw attention to the situation after the fact.
Here is something to keep in mind. Once you leave the store you don’t have to stop for anyone. Just keep walking to your car.
Menards just lost more business than $5.99 through this post. Seriously, has anyone considered the impact of this site? This would be something like the Jim Cramer effect.
CALL THE MEDIA.
Menards security has gotten some *really* bad press before for this kind of crap!
I don’t think things add up with what she writes on “Craig’s List”. I work retail and you can not stop people unless you have seen exactly where the item was put, and watched the person from the time it happen until they walk out with the unpaid item. You then have to be able to tell exactly where the items where hiden. From the story she wrote the security guard was able to do that without hesitation. I don’t think her story rings true and if it was an accident the ask to speak with the police not the L.P.
I am sorry I have heard everything. People steal alot more than I think you realize. They steal used makeup and perfume testers. They will stand there with a baggy and scoop face cream out of a jar so they don’t have to pay for it. They will use almost an entire bottle of something and then come back in and demand thier money back. They take their old shoes off and put them in boxes and walk out with new ones. I have seen them bring their little kids in so they can teach them how to steal too. I have seen judges wives and Church Deacon’s wifes all steal there is no one type of person that steals. I don’t really trust most people.
IT’S AN UNSUBSTANTIATED ANONYMOUS POSTING ON CRAIGSLIST.
It’s hilarious to see the knee jerk reactions on this site. Did Chris Walters even bother attemping to contact this annonymous Craigslist poster regarding their completely ridiculous story? $100 says he didn’t.
This is why you bring a cell phone when you shop. I would have had the cops at the door (go ahead, let them escort me out instead of some idiot Menards employee) before I signed or paid for an additional anything.
I’d definitely threaten a lawsuit & get a lawyer to subpoena them for the surveillance video.
You should have given the bits and left, if they held you then you should have called the police.
The police would have called all of them retards and let you leave.
A cop, unlike the security guard, would have heard you out. If you’re being bullied, getting an unbiased third party to settle the dispute is your best move.
Um, If you live in Janesville(or almost any other city) where a Wal-Mart is you will notice a police booth. That is because any incidents in-store will involve the police. I would not sit idle. Get the police involved as soon as possible it will be on cameras that record unless the entire store is in on this. Do not hesitate! That is not only extortion but strong-arm robbery because you were held against your will without police involment.
First, why would you sign and essentially admit your guilt? Second, contact a lawyer and the local news media and have them contact Menards’ corporate office to file an official complaint. Third, it looks like Menards and other stores have a nice side business of extorting money out of honest but naive public, their customers!!! This is an outrageous practice that deserves local if not national spotlight for public attention on what these stores are doing to their customer base. You may risk losing some money (court fees and fines) and time, if in fact you do lose the case, but these corporations have a lot more at stake with their name, image and faith from their customer base. I don’t think they would want to wager or risk these for a measly $5.99.
This does seem to be legal, though she probably would have been better off letting them call the cops. Here’s an article talking about the civil restitution laws relating to shoplifting which a number of states have passed:
[privateofficernews.wordpress.com]
The article gives an example of a man detained by Home Depot for “stealing” a couple of screws which he’d brought from home so that he could match the threads.
These people’s business required that they be in the store at least once or twice a day? These people must have done something prior to this to get store security’s attention. Signing the form and paying $150 sounds like a load to me. I can’t see these people as victims because they cooperated so stupidly.
Since the guard refused to hand over a copy of the paperwork, I gotta wonder whether he and his cohort split the $$ and destroyed the paperwork.
The OP should go back to the manager and ask (nicely) for a copy of the paperwork. If it’s not found, there might be a couple of rent-a-cops looking for their next victims.
I worked in retail for several years. What you did is exactly what shoplifters do.
Shoplifters open boxes. You opened the box.
Shoplifters put items in the box that they want to steal. You tossed an item into the open box.
Shoplifters leave without paying for all items. You left without paying for all items.
When caught, shoplifters offer to pay for the item. When caught, you offered to pay for the item.
Your actions – and the result – were identical to those of a shoplifter. In most states walking out of a store without paying for an item is a crime.
In the future I suggest that you ask an employee (or Customer Service) to open the box and to repackage the contents.
A similar thing happened to me at Walgreens. However, I was not cowered and told them to go ahead and call the police, (they didn’t) and I also refused to make out a statement. I left their store and have never shopped at Walgreens again.
The lady should have let them call the police. In fact she should have insisted on it. These $7.00 an hour thugs should be stopped.
Authors of this story:
PLEASE follow up on what happens here!
Will Mennards investigate and try to fix their personnel problem?
OR will Mennards try to threaten this website to take down the article?
Please follow up with any contacts from Mennards on this!
I think I would have contacted a lawyer. I am sure that if you threatened a lawsuit, you would get some sort of reaction from the corporate office. It’s unfortunate, but if you don’t do something, they will try it again. And, I would bet the farm, that you are not the first to fall victim to this outrage.
@wiguy45: Well, I had no idea. I kept reading this thing, thinking what a prick… I have been very loyal to Menards, but that party is over.
TRACEY ANNE GANZERLA (nee Payne from Junee) (thief)
in company with
LESLIE CHARLES GILROY (corrupt cop) (thief)
LLOYD STEPHEN GANZERLA (thief)
BELINDA JANE GANZERLA (nee Keuning) (thief)
EUGENE CLEVELAND GANZERLA (thief)
and others, robbed my wife and I
See the whole story here
http://austlawpublish.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
@AirIntake:
If that happened to me, they’d be calling the fire department, on me.
@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Yeah, people of all income levels steal for all sorts of weird little reasons–thrill of it, weird compulsion, acting out anger issues, whatever. I don’t get the “I bought x hundred dollars so there’s no way I could also be a shoplifter!” excuse.
But if you’re not a shoplifter, stay the hell out of those back rooms.
@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn:2 weeks ago I walked out of walmart with a $12 pair of reading glasses hanging from my shirt. I had left mine in the car and had “borrowed them to read a medicine label. I discovered them when I put my sealtbelt on and promptly returned them to the greeter at the door. I don’t know who was more surprised.
@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn:
The lady took off the stickers so she was trying to steal them but something similar happened to my mom. She forgot her glasses at home. So when she went to the store one of the employees told her she could use the store glasses. She finished her shopping and forgot she was wearing the Stores glasses and not her’s until the Person at the cash register asked if she wanted to buy those as well.
@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Sometimes people buy a lot because it makes them feel better about stealing. “Well, I’m paying them $120 for all this other stuff, so it isn’t bad if I just steal these $10 glasses!”
It’s bargaining with yourself.
@calchip:
Agreed I would get my ducks in a row and then go to my bank and ask them for a chargeback. I would have my attorney contact the store and the police and tell them whats going on and why I am requesting the chargeback, and then I would take this business to court (provided my attorney has enough evidence.) and humiliate and sue the pants off of them. Lets see who will be laughing now.
@calchip: This wasn’t attempted extortion. They paid the money. It was actual extortion.
@bohemian: These kinds of things probably happen at all these big box retailers. The key is finding the right location, customer service and handling of this sort of thing can vary wildly from one location to the next. You might Have an awesome experience at One location for any given chain, but the location in the next town might be awesome.
@The_Red_Monkey: Wal-Mart makes you give your ID with a credit card. I explained that it’s against the merchant agreement, and the cashier said I still had to show it. I left my whole order there (I returned something without a receipt a few months ago, and they asked for my ID. They never gave it back – all over a $4 return. So I won’t give them ID anymore).
@chatterboxwriting: They can SEE an ID (for certain things) but it never leaves my hand. I had the same thing happen. Luckily I was able to get it back later.
@shadowkahn: Unfortunately, I don’t see anything that Menards could be charged with. (but then again, IANAL.)
First of all, Menards had the 5 point checklist they need to accuse someone of shoplifting. The need to witness: 1) customer entering the store, 2) taking the item in question, 3) hiding the item, 4) walk past the point of sale without paying for the item, 5) attempting to leave the establishment. From the article, it sounds like they had at least numbers 2 through 5.
False arrest, false accusation, and slander aren’t applicable, since they did in fact take an item without paying for it. And the store has the right to detain customers when there is sufficient evidence of shoplifting.
Now, are they being complete jerks by doing all of this? Absolutely, no question. But I don’t know if there’s anything that can be done about it (legally). Maybe I’m wrong.
@AustinTXProgrammer: Counsel, not “council”.
@AustinTXProgrammer: My question is; how did she pay the $150? Did she pay cash? If so, she has no way of proving she even paid. For all we know, that paper she signed got shredded and two employees just split a $150 off-the-books bonus with no one being the wiser.
@jc364: Extortion. They attempted to extort them into paying $150 to not call the cops. That’s a crime.
@jc364: That’s interesting, because Wisconsin state laws is pretty clear on this. And the 5 point checklist, plus the behavior of the ‘security’ staffer in question is in direct conflict with the law. To whit:
943.50 Retail theft. (1) In this section:
(a) “Merchant” includes any “merchant” as defined in s.
402.104 (3) or any innkeeper, motelkeeper or hotelkeeper.
(ar) “Theft detection device” means any tag or other device that is used to prevent or detect theft and that is attached to merchandise held for resale by a merchant or to property of a merchant.
(as) “Theft detection device remover” means any tool or
device used, designed for use or primarily intended for use in removing a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(at) “Theft detection shielding device” means any laminated or coated bag or device designed to shield merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant from being detected by an electronic or magnetic theft alarm sensor.
(b) “Value of merchandise” means:
1. For property of the merchant, the value of the property; or
2. For merchandise held for resale, the merchant’s stated price of the merchandise or, in the event of altering, transferring or removing a price marking or causing a cash register or other sales device to reflect less than the merchant’s stated price, the difference between the merchant’s stated price of the merchandise and the altered price.
(1m) A person may be penalized as provided in sub. (4) if he or she does any of the following without the merchant’s consent and with intent to deprive the merchant permanently of possession or the full purchase price of the merchandise or property:
(a) Intentionally alters indicia of price or value of merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(b) Intentionally takes and carries away merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(c) Intentionally transfers merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(d) Intentionally conceals merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(e) Intentionally retains possession of merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(f) While anywhere in the merchant’s store, intentionally removes a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(g) Uses, or possesses with intent to use, a theft detection shielding device to shield merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of merchant from being detected by an electronicor magnetic theft alarm sensor.
(h) Uses, or possesses with intent to use, a theft detection device remover to remove a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(3) A merchant, a merchant’s adult employee or a merchant’s security agent who has reasonable cause for believing that a person has violated this section in his or her presence may detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time to
deliver the person to a peace officer, or to his or her parent or guardian in the case of a minor. The detained person must be promptly informed of the purpose for the detention and be permitted to make phone calls, but he or she shall not be interrogated or searched against his or her will before the arrival of a peace officer
who may conduct a lawful interrogation of the accused person. The merchant, merchant’s adult employee or merchant’s security agent may release the detained person before the arrival of a peace officer or parent or guardian. Any merchant, merchant’s adult employee or merchant’s security agent who acts in good faith in
any act authorized under this section is immune from civil or criminal liability for those acts.
So especially with regards to section 3, they did interrogate, accost, hold without notice, and coerce the op. Further, good luck proving intent in this case. The Op should have called the cops, the security goon for Menards should have been hauled away, and everyone should have gone their own way.
@jc364: ahh, but, they didn’t arrest (i.e. detain) these people for the reasons you say. They nabbed the people in order to extort money out of them. Because the reason for the arrest was to commit a felony, all those above charges do, in fact, apply.
@TechnoDestructo: I approve. Soon my pet I will feed the world to you.
@floraposte: I can’t recall. Since I was a clerk, LP wasn’t my dept, and I wasn’t allowed to get involved.
@ludwigk: My IANAL guess is that since they’re approaching it as a civil issue, whether or not they could actually charge for the crime may not be relevant.
@ludwigk: It’s resitution. You admit you shoplifted when you pay it. On the books in… 40 states iirc?
And they’re allowed to multiply the amount b/c the item lost value by being stolen or some bullshit.
I paid it once when I was young and stupider for a DVD a cashier forgot to ring up.
@ivanthemute: There’s a magic word in the Wisconsin statute you quoted and that word is “intentionally.” To be guilty of a crime involving theft, there has to be intention to commit the crime. If someone slips a box of drill bits in my jacket pocket, and I don’t know about it, legally I have not committed a crime (although I’d better pay for or return the item as soon as I know about it). In the OP’s case, I think any reasonable police officer would have recognized that here were people who just paid for $300 worth of merchandise and it was more than likely that the bits were a slip-up. The OP should have insisted that the store security call the police but how many people without legal training would know to do that?
They do have a right to see what they signed and to get a copy. I would call the store manager for that.
@AJ_Syrinx: Yes, that’s pretty much exactly what I was saying. I wasn’t stealing a $2 or $3 plastic bin from Walmart, give me a break. eelmonger is as bad as that woman at the door. If I had saw the cashier skip it, or even discovered the mistake after I got home, I would have made sure it was paid for, just on principle.
I don’t even blame the cashier 100%… I should have paid closer attention to what she was scanning.
@holytrainwreck: No, it’s much worse. In China, the security guards beat you to death.
@Difdi: Does it really meet extortion, though? Can’t a store opt out of criminal charges based on somebody’s participation in civil restitution?
@Difdi: The law also says that they have to attach a copy of the statue regarding civil demand. They never do.
And since it’s considered a debt, they just send it to collection if you don’t pay. And the police are not going to take your complaint based on the format of their letter… the worst you could do is get them in trouble with the Bar.
In this case, it’s a little different, since it did happen in person, but technically that paperwork she signed was probably the civil demand paperwork.
While I agree that civil demand blows chunks (it’s being abused at this point.. it’s supposed to be for -actual- shoplifting and -actual- damages, not padding your bottom line), it would all be on the up and up. It just has to be a written demand, not a letter.
@frodolives35: Last year, I accidentally stole a small package of beads from Michaels. I had my baby sleeping in her carrier inside the cart, and when I went to put other stuff in the cart, the beads fell in between her and the carrier. I didn’t realize they were there until we got home and I took her out, and I was too embarrassed to bring them back to the store…. :/ It feels nice to confess though.
@floraposte: I don’t know what you are talking about? Can a store opt out of being charged with a crime? Difdi is right – it is extortion, if the DA wants to press criminal charges the store can’t opt out just by saying someone paid civil restitution (which if you read other comments this is pretty clearly not restitution).
@floraposte: Restitution means making the store whole again. If someone steals $5 worth of drill bits, then making the store whole would involve the thief either giving the drill bits back (new and unopened) or paying the store $5, or a combination of the two (giving them back the drill bits after they’ve been opened, and 15% less than $5 for the restocking discount the store will have to apply to resell them again).
This goon asked for $150. Not $5. He’s not going for restitution. He’s looking to get money out of her. And since he obtained that money by threatening her with the cops, it’s extortion. Not restitution.
@katstermonster:
I’ve also seen/heard of people helping themselves to “freebies”…people eating some grapes in the grocery store, grabbing a few little items here and there when making a big purchase because they think they are entitled to something just because they are a regular shopper or are making a big $ purchase that day.
@katstermonster: People are often nutburgers. Working in retail is eye-opening. They’ll do anything they can.
My store wouldn’t even mark stuff down if it had stains on it, because people would bring stuff in to PUT stains on the stuff they wanted.
@Saboth:
Grapes are expensive. It’s only prudent to try one before buying a bunch.
@bbagdan: Plus, many grocery stores sell grapes by the bag, not by weight.
@xtc46 – thinksmarter on twitter: I don’t think the cart grab was a conspiracy by any means, but it is a point in the proceedings where the cart was out of her possession and control. It adds a definite element of doubt.
@Difdi: You are not a lawyer. You are incorrect about what extortion is.
@Difdi: That part does seem odd. When we did this at Kmart, we gave them the choice of agreeing to the restitution or filing charges. If they agreed to restitution, they signed a form admitting they stole from us (with an itemized list of exactly what was stolen) and agreed to settle it. We’d get a glob of information from them (address, name, the normal stuff), then it all got sent off to a lawyer’s office who handled it all from there. No money passed in the back office, and we were not allowed to offer anything of the sort. The security room was monitored video and audio 24/7 with the computer handling it inside a locked cage accessible only by the District Manager. Guaranteed everyone kept it on the even keel.
@Difdi: That’s why I make my own egg nog!
@thisistobehelpful: Learn to not be a dick.
@settsu: I had the initial same reaction – but take a closer look. thisistobehelpful is responding to -their own post-. (:
@billy: I hear waterboarding is the latest tool in generating confessions.
@RPHP: They can make a civil demand without a judgement, at least in Wisconsin and Texas.
And if you don’t pay a civil demand, it’s sent to collections.
You have literally no chance to fight these things off, other than to not sign the paperwork.
But unless you expressly know your rights, you will probably be scared into doing just that. That’s what they bank on.
@H3ion: Oh, I know. That’s what I meant regarding the fact that Menard’s didn’t meet the minimum standards for what would be classed as shoplifting. Intent is the key, and that’s where situations like this and the Wal-mart one earlier this week that drives me nuts. Shoplifting, throw the sucker under a bus. Honest mistake? Pay the bill and move on.
@Wombatish: True but that does not mean they can do anything but try to collect the debt (ie under the Fair Debt Collections Act they can not “collect” but they can try to collect ie they can not contact third parties, garnish your wages, get to your bank account, or report false information to a credit agency). Note the last item – report false information to a credit agency – if you accidentally took a $5 item all you really owe is $5 – they can not claim you owe the $150 or whatever else without a judgment.
@Toffeecake: That reminds me of My Cousin Vinny (with the tuna fish cans in the pocket). Good thing you didn’t end up on trial for murder!
@billy:
You’re missing the point, Billy.
They were sat down in the security room with the security guard behind his desk and another store employee “guarding” the door.
This is kidnapping.
Unless you are in an interview room WITH THE POLICE and being charged with a crime, in which case this is not illegal. ANY other circumstance and this becomes DURESS as you are being PHYSICALLY prevented from leaving even though there are no charges being filed (The security guard said no when they asked if they are being charged. At the moment the security guard said no, they were no longer under ANY obligation to stay in that room. If they say someone was guarding the door, that’s FALSE IMPRISONMENT, hence kidnapping. This is a VERY serious charge.)
Last I checked, rent-a-cops do not have the legal right to detain ANYONE against their will. They are not the police.
If that guard had detained me, I would have essentially told him “Either you let me go now and leave with the merchandise I paid for, or I will call the police myself and file charges against YOU personally AND the company. What’s your decision?”
Very simple.. and had the op said something to that effect, the guard would have changed his tune.. FAST.
@Mythandros: Frankly, I’m not missing the point.
This lady posted a one-sided story (on Craigslist, no less) and her version of it is spotty at best.
Intimidation? Physically prevented from leaving? Not based on what she posted. She may have felt intimidated…but is it the legal definition of intimidation? She didn’t even try to leave. She *assumed* she couldn’t leave. The person “guarding” the door could have just as easily stepped aside. Therefore, no false imprisonment.
Besides, as I’ve mentioned repeatedly (and you seem to ignore by your “rent-a-cops” comment, so check again), there is such a thing as the shopkeeper’s privilege. If the guards believed she stole something, they are allowed to use reasonable means to keep her there. To be sure, they can only do it until cops come, but, frankly, I’m not going to put my trust in her one-sided story and, therefore, It’s not entirely clear what happened.
Did they threaten her? She didn’t mention it. It’s not duress (not the legal definition, anyway).
>>> “Either you let me go now and leave with the merchandise I paid for, or I will call the police myself and file charges against YOU personally AND the company. What’s your decision?”
RIGHT! But she didn’t do that, did she? She assumed the worst, signed something without reading it, and paid money with no questions asked. That’s on her. She agreed to it. Per many other posts, the civil demand is legal (and I believe it, too. It makes sense considering that one may settle a case at any time before a civil judgment).
On the other hand, why do you think they would have changed their tune? If she didn’t agree to the civil demand, I would have called the cops.
I guess it comes down to this: if the guards actually believe that she stole the bits (and there’s really no indication from this woman that they wouldn’t believe that), AND there is such thing as the shopkeeper’s privilege (and there is), AND if there’s such a thing as civil demand, Menards didn’t do anything wrong.
@Mythandros: BTW: this is a really good article summing up the lay of the land:
[www.civildemand.net]
I’m making the assumption that all of this applies in this situation.