Over at the NYT there is a raging debate going on about restaurant server etiquette. We won’t reproduce all 50 “do nots” here, but we did pick a few particularly debate worthy edicts.
6. Do not lead the witness with, “Bottled water or just tap?” Both are fine. Remain neutral.
7. Do not announce your name. No jokes, no flirting, no cuteness.
17. Do not take an empty plate from one guest while others are still eating the same course. Wait, wait, wait.
24. Never use the same glass for a second drink.
27. For red wine, ask if the guests want to pour their own or prefer the waiter to pour.
31. Never remove a plate full of food without asking what went wrong. Obviously, something went wrong.
42. Do not compliment a guest’s attire or hairdo or makeup. You are insulting someone else.
43. Never mention what your favorite dessert is. It’s irrelevant.
This is from just the first 50 of 100, and part two is promised soon. Do you agree with these? Have suggestions of your own?
100 Things Restaurant Staffers Should Never Do (Part 1) [NYT]
(Photo:Ed Yourdon)
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Not touching the rim of the glass is extremely important. As is handling silverware by the handle. I always instructed my staff on how to properly handle glasses and silverware.
I also taught them how to properly carry a plate. No one wants to eat from a plate from which a server just removed their thumb.
I would also say that some of these rules regarding names and compliments may not apply to “frequent” customers, as some customers and staff sometimes developed a rapport.
Regarding the premature plate removal…
When I was a wee lass learning the rules of etiquette, there was a nifty trick to let your server know if you were taking a break or actually finished:
“To signal that your are done with the course, rest your fork, tines up, and knife blade in, with the handles resting at five o’clock an tips pointing to ten o’clock on your plate.”
Problem solved.
@pollyannacowgirl: At last someone who is familiar with REAL etiquette. If my waiter sees this plate in front of me I fully expect it to promptly vanish.
I hate it when they vacumn around me when I am eating. I also don’t like my empty dish taken away when I need it to nipple on the shared plates.
Rule 0: Don’t go to restaurants if you’re a pretentious git who can’t relax and enjoy a dining experience without nit-picking.
I haven’t read the whole list, but one of mine is do NOT sit down at my table/booth. The servers at Outback do this all the time, and I hate it. I don’t know you, back the heck off.
@thesadtomato: Prole drift. That. Do not like. -1 pretentiousness.
Don’t make me wait on the check. I run into this all the time. Great service, but then no closure, right when I’m finally thinking about the tip.
Just from the sampling of the rules I see here, it looks like the debate is being run by a bunch of patrons who have rather large sticks up their rectums.
Eh, a lot of that sounds fine, and are probably policies of more casual restaurants as well. The question is, how empowered is the server to follow them? I’ve never worked at a restaurant that said it was okay to serve food that looked like crap on paper, but when the food come out poorly, it wasn’t exactly easy to get a new dish.
Servers shouldn’t serve from dirty dishes or glasses, but its the restaurants obligation to ensure the glasses get clean.
Giving your name is common sense, I don’t quite get why that would be a no-no. If the customer really doesn’t want to know your name, they’d forget it in a moment anyway.
Some of these are just plain wrong. For example, #7 Do not announce your name. Ah yes, so when there is a problem with the serving of the meal and the customer goes to complain to the manager, we can have a long conversation about what the person looked like instead of saying “Brian peed in my soup.” Not to mention that, esp. in the south that would be seen as incredibly rude. I expect that when I go to a restaurant, I will be greeted AND that the waitstaff will tell me their names and not act like a ninja trying to remain super secretive.
Also, the author had a strange obsession with staffers not asking people what they ordered. Hello McFly?!? The reason a waiter asks “Who’s having the shrimp” is to once again finally reverify who the shrimp is going to, not to find out who’s getting the shrimp. A lot of times the food is brought out, esp. in large groups by the waiter who took the order and other staffers as well. Rather than rely on the unflappable notes written by the waiter/waitress as to who gets what food it’s definitely permissable to get that info from the customer firsthand. I eat out a lot and have the wrong food handed to me, b/c of various miscommunications from the staff at restaurants. But I ALWAYS get the right food in front of me as long as the server verifies what everyone is getting. Does it mean that our high and mighty restaurant critic has to deal with the hoi polloi? Sure. But for those of us not scared of the working class, having them verify your order before presenting it to you is acceptable.
#41. I’ve got another problem with. Sure no problem does sound a little dismissive, but are you really going to act like “my pleasure” is more sincere than no problem?!? Puh-lease! Cause I’m sure your average waitress is over-joyed at the thought of telling a cook to remake something b/c a customer forgot to tell her to get it w/o onions (for example). After all, telling the cook is “her pleasure” Gimme a fuckin’ break. I’d much rather get a np than my pleasure.
#42. While it’s true that complimenting one in a party and not others might make them feel a little less. It doesn’t change the fact that small talk is normal for people! Just b/c someone’s on the job, in uniform, etc. Doesn’t make them less of a person, and as long as the comment isn’t inappropriate it should be fine. My point here is that the real problem isn’t the complimenting, it’s that the author feels any complimenting makes guests feel unequal. But the reality is that in all likelihood if that’s the case the guests probably already feel unequal. So it’s not like you’re doing a whole lot for the customers by not complimenting the one customer. By comparison a heart felt compliment can often be enough to secure a customer for life. It makes the customer feel connected to the restaurant b/c they know that other people in teh restaurant share their tastes.
#39. Don’t call a woman a lady? Ever? Seriously? I can understand that you’d never want to say “What are we eating today, lady?” But there would be nothing wrong with the statement, “If you will follow me, ladies, we have your table setup.” Lady, let’s not forget is actually a title of respect.
#10 is also wrong. I understand that Mr. Bucshel is irritated when a server talks about their personal favorites when describing the menu. I get that the dining experience should be about he customer and not about the waitstaff. But having said that, I personally find it very useful to know what my waiter/waitress thinks is good. B/c in most cases the waitstaff have tried everything on the menu, and therefore have a knowledge of the menu that most customers don’t. And I can tell Bruce geared the article to higher end establishments. But this can’t be a rule hard and fast across the board. I for example go to a bar and grill near where I work, since I’m a regular the waitresses there have gotten to know me a little, and so they’re more friendly and talkative rather than being totally business oriented. This has led to a few conversations about new beers that the waitresses have liked, and b/c I know they are honest assesments rather than attempts to get me to buy something they “count” more to me. Esp. b/c I’m a regular and so have gotten to know which types of drinks the waitresses like. Point being that I don’t mind a waiter telling me that the lasagna is their favorite dish as long as it seems genuine and not some corporate mandated thing to make the restaurant seem more “homey”.
/end rant + offer apology for how long rant was.
A lot of people seem to think this list is an atrocity! I personally agree with EVERY. SINGLE. ITEM.
The only reason I might want to know my waitron’s name is if I have a complaint. In other words, when I want your name, I’ll ask for it, and it’ll be because you screwed up BIG TIME (I avoid confrontation, so you practically have to spit in my face for this). If I need you, I’ll say, “Excuse me.” because chance are I forgot your name anyway. I don’t want to have a conversation with the waitstaff, I have my friends and I can assure you that the level of familiarity I have with them means that I prefer talking with them than exchanging chit-chat with you. To the morons who argue that I should just stay at home, might I point out that I want my food cooked for me, and served to me. I don’t have a personal chef or servant at home, that’s what I go to a restaurant for.
That said, this list deals with defaults. Of course some customers are going to want their plates taken, or suggestions, or chit-chat, he’s not saying they shouldn’t have it given to them, but that you should wait for them to ASK for it or invite it in some way. That’s because for every customer that wants their plate taken, there’s another who doesn’t. It’s not THE CUSTOMER’S problem, the STAFF is getting paid! Give them what they want. It’s not a difficult concept.
I myself tip well, 20% is my default, and I’m not a cold fish: I smile and am generally friendly when I interact with waitstaff. I’ll be polite, just give me what I want, ask for, and invite. Anything else is an intrusion on the experience. If I’m a regular, chances are I’ll be a lot more friendly with you. If it’s a diner, my standards are low. But, if I’m in a restaurant with tablecloths, I expect the server to modulate to the needs of the customer, not the other way around.
Every single restaurant in creation wants the wait staff to engage in what is called “pre-busing”. It is the clearing of plates before everyone is done. Done with that salad plate? Let me take it. Done with your steak? Let me get that out of the way.
And yes you are being hurried along. Save your cribbage board for Denny’s, order another drink, order dessert or leave.
Restaurants opperate on a very slim profit margin. They have to “turn and burn” the clientele in order to drive sales. It’s not just a customer experience while you are at the table, it begins when you walk in and in some cases have a long wait for a table. People don’t come back if there is always a long wait.
this is why it’s okay to tip a little or a lot.
@foodfeed: Yep, and I’m glad to finally see a consumer article coming back at the service industry to tell them what they need to do or not need to do, to make that 18% that they are trying guilt the minimum tip level to.
I really don’t care what the server’s favorite dish is.
Also – speaking of removing plates – the awful phrase “Are you still working on that?”
I’m really surprised #8 didn’t make it on this list.
8. Do not interrupt a conversation. For any reason. Especially not to recite specials. Wait for the right moment.
Though more than that, I hate it when they interrupt me with a mouthful of food. Unless I am choking, go away.
After reading I realize how classist I really am. Damn my mother for raising me like I was going to be the next Jacqueline Kennedy!
I agree that there shouldn’t be any jokes or flirting, but I don’t mind my server telling me their name.
I don’t agree with #43. Some fancier restaurants will prepare every dish on the menu and have the staff taste them all. Why? So they know what they’re selling. If I’m trying to decide between two items, the server’s opinion matters.
But seriously, fifty “don’ts”? Fifty? Lighten up, people. Give me a clean table, be friendly, answer my questions, take my order, get it right, serve me tasty food, correct any problems and don’t make me wait forever for the check. And never, ever, EVER sit down at the table with us to take our order.
What. The. Hell.
Here’s one for you: servers should never help themselves to the food.
We went to a Fuddruckers this weekend, and while paying for the food, I looked into the kitchen and saw an employee grab a bite of food (looked like a potato wedge) out of a serving container with her fingers and shove it into her mouth. She saw me looking at her, and she glared at me. When I looked back a minute later, she was still staring at me.
Add that to the fact that even though it was only 11:30AM, the bathrooms smelled horrible (as if they hadn’t been cleaned in a while), the mile-long condiment bar they had in the 90s is down to a few standard condiments, and a crappy chicken sandwich combo was $10 (I can get better for half of that at Sonic!)…we won’t ever go back to Fuddruckers.
And yes, I sent a complaint letter to corporate. We were in a hurry to leave afterward so we couldn’t talk to the manager.
I prefer knowing the server’s name. Sometimes service isn’t perfect, and I need to say, “hey, could you flag down our waitress, Stacy I think it was?” OR maybe service is awesome, and I don’t want to be calling in saying “I had great service! My waitress was… um… blonde? tallish?”
A lot of the things on his list I think are management, not the server. Substituting vegetables, offering wine labels or samples.
I’ve spent much more of my life working in a restaurant than I’d care to admit… and I can guarantee that the db who wrote this is a terrible tipper.
I have only two bugbears with some restaurant employees:
1. Do what the customer asks you to do.
Why they find it so difficult, I cannot fathom. I’m not asking for something unreasonable (i.e. demanding a free meal because it took a long time). I simply mean, bring me what I ordered.
- I don’t mind if it takes 20 or 25 minutes to cook, what don’t want is uncooked meat. Time is not important, getting it right is.
- If I say “No ice” in a drink or ask not to have something on a meal/sandwich/burger like salt, mayonnaise or whatever, I expect not to see it.
- If I point out that a utensil is dirty, bring a clean one back before the food arrives. I don’t expect you to return within one minute, but I do expect it back by the time you bring the plate. Not bringing me a clean fork means I’m not paying for it since I wasn’t able to eat it.
2. Bring the food to me. Don’t put the plate down on the far side of the table and expect me to get up, walk around the table and bring it to my chair. That’s your job.
My pet pieve is when the person that takes the order is not the person that delivers the food. I want one person accountable for my satisfaction.
“42. Do not compliment a guest’s attire or hairdo or makeup. You are insulting someone else.”
Seriously, are people so juvenile that someone else can’t receive a complement without them feeling left out and insulted? Geez. Grow up and read some self-help books people.
“31. Never remove a plate full of food without asking what went wrong. Obviously, something went wrong.”
I disagree with this one. I had gastric bypass a while back and now MOST of my plates are left largely full at the end of a meal. I go for social aspects, eat what I can/should, and leave the rest. It’s very frustrating when a well-intentioned server keeps asking me what’s wrong with the meal, why haven’t I eaten more, can they get me something else, etc., when this is simply the result of a medical procedure. I usually have to explain my medical status for them to leave me alone.
I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but I don’t enjoy being badgered. Ask once and let it go if the patron says things were fine.
these tips are for real restaurants…not Applebee’s…..
I absolutely hate it when a waiter takes my plate and i am not finished and/or my silverware doesn’t cue him to take it.
50-100 is up now too.
74. Let the guests know the restaurant is out of something before the guests read the menu and order the missing dish
My pet peeve
@floraposte: Yeah, I do understand that, and if a server is fawning over one guest while ignoring the others it can be awkward. That’s very different from a casual “I love your blouse”. Women, particularly groups of women, are sometimes complete savages to a young female server and if your compliment is genuine that can sometimes change the subzero temperatures at a table.
I guess my skin isn’t so thin that I get bent out of shape when I don’t get a pat on the head, too. So the waitress likes my friend’s earrings and doesn’t say anything about mine. Big deal.
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): “I don’t think they’re talking about Bennigans.“
That’s the impression I got.
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): No, they’re not, and I don’t eat at Bennigan’s and the like. But this article points to the fact that food service industry (like everything else) is completely subject to prole drift.
@GMFish: I don’t expect waitstaff to have photographic memories either, but having been a waitress we would get in trouble if we were caught auctioning off food and it doesn’t take a flipping genius to remember what people ordered. It takes a pen and a piece of paper.
@GMFish:
17. No kidding! An empty plate represents a mounting risk that I will get whatever’s left on my shirt, even if I’m wearing my fanciest manners. Plus, it’s just unappealing.
18. I disagree with you here — restaurants (or individual waiters) have systems to indicate which plate goes where. I was taught how to do this at a home-cookin’ chain, and I damn well expect it anywhere nicer than a mom & pop diner. It’s okay to slip up, but if you have to ask every time, that’s just unprofessional. I get asked almost all the time these days — implying that waiters aren’t even taught to associate orders with seats, or just can’t be arsed. (Large parties are an exception — people move around too much.)
24. I think this may be about using the same glass for a different drink, not a refill. If someone kept bringing me fresh water glasses, I’d be irked by the waste.
48. Contrary the initial service (18), which isn’t hard to get right, I’d rather be interrupted than end up with the wrong drink, or worse, a second glass of rancid tea (excusable, happens everywhere from time to time.)
@Coelacanth: Feminists or women who feel or look too old but think they are still in their 30′s.
I say if they are feminists then they will get mad, upset or irate no matter what you do so don’t even bother trying to accommodate them. Just say Ma’am with respect and if they get upset then just write them off as a lost cause.
@Coelacanth: Ma’am has always been generally used to address married women, women of high rank or authority and royalty.
Much like sir, to me it sounds subservient or childish. It only seems to be used when addressing elders or superiors as a sign of respect. Would you call a boss of the same age or younger sir or ma’am? I wouldn’t.
For some it’s a sign of politeness or respect, for others it’s offensive or demeaning.
@Coelacanth: Seeing as this is from the New York Times and comes from the comments section, I’ll say that the “don’t call me ma’am” is a regionalism. It’s something I learned the hard way when I moved here from the south and got a service industry job. New York women do not like being called ma’am. If you must say something, use “miss”, even if they look 60.
Better yet, strive not to need to use one or the other. In general, sir/ma’am is not considered necessary in NYC in the way it is in other parts of the country. Working in retail, I only found myself using a ma’am substitute in situations like “Excuse me, miss? Did you leave this credit card at the cash wrap?”
@Coelacanth: “Will somebody please explain to me the controversy behind being called, “Ma’am?”
For me it’s not a controversy, it just makes me feel like I look old
I would never get mad at someone calling me that, but I admit it that it grates.
@Coelacanth: This to me was the funniest part of the whole article, albeit that it was in the comments section of the OP. Several commentors said they would rather be called Miss rather than Ma’am (as ma’am made them feel old.) Maybe it’s cause I’m a nerd obsessed with Etymology (word history), but I had to laugh.
Miss is a much more inappropriate title of address than Ma’am, because Miss implies that the person you are addressing is unmarried. If you know the person is married the correct address is Misses. And if unsure the title becomes Mz. Ma’am is a contraction of madame, and is literally an French word anglicized Ma Dame = My lady, ergo, ma’am = my lady. Ma’am therefore is one of the only titles that you can address a woman with that does not imply either an age restriction or a marriage restriction (compare to miss, misses, or Mademoiselle.) That so many women apparently think ma’am refers only to old women is really a testament to our failing educational standards more than anything else. Additionally in the south Ma’am is a term of respect given without regard to age. I’m just as likely to refer to a customer younger than me as a ma’am as I am someone older than me, b/c here in Texas we’re polite like that, everyone gets called Ma’am, provided that they are a woman. I’ve even heard teenage girls addressed that way, as in “and what would you like to drink ma’am?”
@sir_pantsalot: Nope. I’m a feminist, and I think “Ma’am” is utterly appropriate and respectful.
@h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes: Har, har. I mean sometimes I need smaller bills.
@floraposte: “it’s the restaurant owner identifying the principles on which his restaurant is run.”
Correction; it’s a NEW restaurant owner identifying the principles on which his NOT YET OPENED restaurant is ALLEGEDLY GOING TO run.
It will be interesting to see if the realities of running a restaurant change his position on any of these issues.
@mythago: I’m not saying that servers need to or should be expected to compliment the diners. I’m saying that if someone took it upon themselves to pay me a compliment I wouldn’t bite their head off. It’s clear that the practice bothers you, and I understand that.
@Etoiles: I always figured it was in recognition of my future in world domination.
@floraposte: Agree. Seems to me that the best approach is for the server to say: “Would you like me to take that away?”
@The_IT_Crone: And just think how often the server hands DO touch that food and nobody is the wiser
@The_IT_Crone: No kidding. I’m married, but there have been times I’ve had a meal with a single, female friend. What should the server do in that situation?
Also, I don’t understand how you’re insulted by simply saying “one check is fine.” When I go out with my wife, it doesn’t matter who pays. The money belongs to both of us…
@The_IT_Crone: I can totally see wait staff stepping into some trouble if they automatically assume a man and a woman together mean they’re “together” – what if the man was married to another woman, or another man? What if it was the same for the woman? Why assume at all?
We’ve never been asked about separate checks, but we’re also young and sometimes I get the feeling that some wait staff think maybe we’re just dating, and don’t see the wedding rings. Some dating couples split the check. I still don’t think they would ask, but sometimes I get the feeling from wait staff (particularly much older wait staff) that they think we’re just dating and not married.
@burnedout: Only if you’re not splitting the bill evenly.
@mazzic1083:
Ahhh, the male brain
@mazzic1083: Would have it been appropriate to not tip extra for extra services rendered?
However, tipping an extra $20 for just that is like paying MSRP.
@katstermonster: My guess is that it’s a tone thing for this owner, and that he wants to avoid the “Hi, I’m Bitsy! What can I get you good folks tonight at Rustlers Retreat?” feel.
@thesadtomato: “It takes a pen and a piece of paper.“
Sure, but what’s wrong with asking, “Who ordered the shrimp?” The fact that you find something wrong with asking a simple question strongly implies that you think the waitstaff should remember it.
Why does it bother you that he or she can’t? Do you feel less special that someone you’ve never met before cannot remember what food you ordered?
@thesadtomato: This article points to the fact that food service industry (like everything else) is completely subject to prole drift.
That doesn’t sound like you’re using “prole drift” in the usually defined sense, as the article doesn’t say anything about the tendency for things that were once restricted to the upper classes to trickle down to the lower classes.
Rather, you seem to be using “prole drift” in such a way to assert that that servers and other low-level workers to be of a lower class than you and not generally capable of intelligent thought. Like, if you let the workers think and voice opinions, they’ll mess everything that was so carefully planned by the infallible leaders?
I might have to unrescind my rescinded Internet criticism. Maybe I’ll toss out an accusation of “elitist” while I’m at it, since you said “Bennigan’s and the like.”
@floraposte: I have had that happen a few times recently. I think it increases tips by getting the server in a lower physical position so that the person ordering connects better with the server on a non-vocal level- eye to eye or something.
Though I am totally against the server sitting down with the customer to take the order even if the customers are a couple occupying only one side of the booth. I’ll take the squat next to over sit down always.
@GMFish: Whoa! Unnecessary psychologizing!
What’s wrong with asking who ordered the shrimp is that it isn’t professional. Your job as a waiter is to remember who ordered the shrimp, it’s not the customer’s part to have to tell you. I’m not just implying that waitstaff should remember it, I’m saying “Waitstaff should remember who ordered what. It is their job.”
Techno fact: There are even ways to do this on some POS systems, so you can enter who gets what on the computer, the ticket that appears with the meal in the kitchen will remind you.
It doesn’t *bother* me if waitstaff can’t remember what I ordered, it just means they aren’t doing their job, and it isn’t a well-staffed restaurant. If they ask me who ordered the shrimp I won’t tip them less, or pitch a fit, it just means they haven’t done what they’re supposed to do.
BTW, I am a former waitress.
@GMFish: It’s just that asking will interupt your conversation, and the server shouldn’t need any help from you to do his/her job. You go to a restaurant for food and the company of your friends, not to talk to waiters, and so there should be as little of the latter as possible (Hooters may be an exeption).
@Rectilinear Propagation: How presumptuous and rude. That would have gotten a complaint to the manager from me and the little shit turning out his pockets right there.
@Opoponax: What if two parties are both paying with plastic? Did you bring your own credit card processor? It’s a lot more convenient to have separate checks than run to an ATM after the meal.
@thesadtomato: Then like I said, you’re that guy who coming in regularly and acts like you don’t recognize the people you see every time. But at the same time, they’re correctly adapting to your preference to not fraternize with the service staff.
Personally, I think a lack of friendliness at a place I frequent makes eating out unpleasant. Overly pushy friendliness also makes it unpleasant. For me, it’s all about a reasonable balance.
The correct answer, I think, is not for the server to follow a bullshit one-size-fits-all rule and treat all customers the same. The key is to adapt to each customer’s preference, interacting as much or as little as they desire.
When I was a server, we had some people that came in every week, ordered the fajita pita, didn’t say a word, paid their bill, tipped exactly 15%, and that was that. We also had people who espoused every minutiae about what happened in their life like we were stylists at some sort of hair salon (and, generally, tipped much better).
@thesadtomato: Exactly right. I already have friends and I don’t ask them to serve me dinner. Bring the food and drink like a professional and you’ll get a fine tip. Annoy me with your personal details and I may not come back.
@thesadtomato: Wow you must live a REALLY sad life. As someone who volunteered at a winery this past summer (for fun, I have a full-time job …) part of the fun of working the tasting room was meeting the eclectic individuals that visited the winery. The staff was fantastic too. We ended up having quite a few regulars that, when they came out, would ask if a specific server was working etc.
I had one woman who I waited on that seemed to share your personality. I’m not saying I want to become best friends, but a little civility, and personality shouldn’t kill anyone. She was just sort of “Whatever” through the entire ordeal, while my other tables were fun, and actually wanted to know about the wine.
Guess which group got a couple of extra pours.
Guess who probably lives a sad life alone with a house full of feral cats.
/and I got a $100 tip.
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): @ElizabethD: Or, to look at it another way – after my wife finishes her meal, she can actually become ill from looking at and smelling the leftovers in front of her for too long. So the server is actually doing her a favor by taking her dish, because I’m a slow eater and won’t be done for a while.
I, personally, also prefer my plate taken even if other people are eating, because I don’t like to be crowded by a bunch of plates in front of me, and I tend to order a lot. The more they can pre-bus the better.
If you’re feeling rushed because they’re keeping your table clean, that’s your own fault. Don’t hurry up and eat if you’re not done, period. Think of it as them helping keep your eating area clean, instead of them rushing you. Odds are they’re just pre-bussing because a lot of restaurant managers tell them to, for one reason or another. In my experience as a server, it’s RARELY the server trying to rush you out the door for faster turnover.
Life is about perspective, which is why lists of “rules” like this are pointless.
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): I don’t deny that some people can be sensitive for whatever reason, known or otherwise. However, your comment would have everyone walking around on eggshells all of the time to avoid harming one another and that is just not possible. I think it a much more valuable skill to know your limits and find ways to cope with what life throws at you.
If you are in a state that makes you so sensitive as to burst into tears at a compliment about your dress, you might want to reconsider being out in public.
@thesadtomato: how exactly does the POS remember clientele? “wendy wheelchair gets the steak”?
BTW, i completely agree. it’s rare that i encounter waitstaff that cannot remember who gets what & i find it quite rude to have my table conversation interrupted with “which-a ya’ll ordered the shrimp?”
i’d also like to add an important one that the author forgot:
101: do not call the customer “hun” or “sweetie”. i don’t think there’s a more condescending phrase in the food service industry.
@thesadtomato: you’re an idiot. Asking who ordered the shrimp is not the waitstaff *forgetting* who ordered the shrimp. It’s a form of verifying that they have it right. Think of it this way. I can take an order, right it down, and then come out and deliver it and assume that I’ve written it down correctly, or I can reverify one last time who is getting a meal before I place it in front of them. Now when you include the fact that in a good many places the food is brought out by more than one server even though it’s usually taken down by one waitress you can see why reverifying is a better alternative. A lot of times your food will be brought out by someone other than who you placed the order with. I always assume that when they ask who got what as they’re bringing it out it’s a last chance to verify the order before it’s too late to do so.
@HurtsSoGood: You came to a restaurant to be *served*. It’s their JOB to make sure the service is ok. I’m sorry that bothers you, but it’s what you went out for in the first place. If you don’t want to be bothered while you eat, or know the person who is serving you, make it yourself. Simple as that.
Would you prefer the other end of the spectrum? The one where you don’t know your server’s name, and they’re not checking up on you, so when you need something, you … can’t ask anyone to get the server who’s name you don’t know?
@HurtsSoGood: So our common sense is your stupid fad. Still, the rest of the world’s ability to find a waiter and give him feedback outweigh your, um, sensibilities, yeah that’s it. Keeps you from being abused anonymously.
@HurtsSoGood: I see your point and it can get a little kitschy, but I’m not exactly a fancy pants person and I think it’s less uncomfortable to be waited on once the person has a name and a face. I agree with the person who started the thread, I definitely don’t want some nameless faceless drone serving me.
@colorisnteverything: Ewww.
@quail: No, I just want them to bring change. Don’t ask. Just bring it.
@floraposte: OK, I have to admit, I LOL’d at this one.
But you bring up an interesting distinction. I have very different expectations depending on where I am. If I’m at “Rustlers Retreat,” I expect the “flair guy” from Office Space and all that goes with it. Now, if I had my way, I’d get rid of it. However, I’m not going to fault a waitperson for following policy.
If I’m at a diner, I expect diner service and if I’m at Japonais, I expect much of the service that described in these tips.
@mazzic1083: I usually find out later
@stephennmcdonald: IMO, bussing a table before people are ready to be done with dinner is rude. It’s not my fault. There are plates, silverware, and some glasses. It’s not like we’ve ordered a ten course meal and let the dishes pile up. Let me eat in peace, buss the table when everyone seems done, and leave it at that.
The last time I had really, really terrible service, the waitress gave us our bill (without prompting) before we even got our dessert. She got very little tip, and a complaint from the manager, who got this look like “not her again” when I mentioned the waitress’ name.
@stephennmcdonald: i have to say i prefer a server to just ask me ‘is there anything i can take away for you?’
that way anyone who wants their plate can keep it and anyone who doesn’t can have it cleared. i often dine with people who have different eating speeds than i do [i have to eat slowly]
actually, usually i tell the server that the appetizer IS my entree and while i’d like it brought when the other appetizers are, i will probably still be working on it when the entrees arrive for everyone else.
of course, if they get it right, the tip goes up
@The_IT_Crone: I’m totally behind you on that, or on any semblance of attitude at the request.
@Michael Belisle: I didn’t say I act like I don’t recognize the people I see every time. That would be dumb. In fact, I’m pretty sure my server does a better job for my husband and I because we come in together every week and he knows we’re not one-off customers.
@Michael Belisle: Apparently you have a heart so I hearted you
@Ihaveasmartpuppy: You dear people are about to make me swear off eating out in restaurants altogether.
@burnedout: There’s a part of me that thinks it’s a low-level restaurant management strategy to have the servers ask a lot of questions about the diner’s preferences. Bottled water or tap? Would you like fresh pepper? Do you want change? Do you need separate checks? Will this be cash or charge? etc. The idea being that the customer will take away a sense of being catered to. When of course the reality is that they just had a bunch of meaningless questions hurled at them.
@thesadtomato: If you can’t abide the overly friendly service (oh noes! People are daring to ask how you are and possibly volunteer a small example of their personal preferences or personality to you! THE HORROR!), stop going. Complain to the manager. Find somewhere where the waiters never talk to you except to ask how you want your steak cooked. And please understand how incredibly insulting your behavior comes off as when you label people as “the proletariat” when discussing something as trivial as a restaurant choice. I have an inkling that you’re already aware, but it bears repeating.
@mazzic1083: So you are being rude and annoying to everyone else around you because your server couldn’t see into the future? That’s just so smart.
@pecan 3.14159265: It’s an actual etiquette convention, in fact–you don’t clear the plates from the course until everybody’s finished. It’s neither a fault nor a problem, any more than eating with a fork is a fault or a problem. “Keeping the area clean” isn’t the priority of dining together. People who want their plates removed can easily ask for it–it’s not like anybody’s insisting that the plates must stay no matter what the customer wants. But if the restaurant’s practice is to ignore the fact that dining is still going on in favor of a clean area? Then to me that’s a priority that’s not the customer’s experience.
@h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes: I’m sorry if you feel insulted, I assure you I don’t want to insult anyone.
I think if you read the original article, and what many other people have posted here, that the fault, dear h3llcat lies not in the server but in the way restaurants are run, and they now cater to people who prefer to be treated as xtc46 described in the next post:@xtc46 – thinksmarter on twitter: “If you are my server, I better know your name, I want you to be excited, and chatty, and if you compliment my girlfriends makeup, I wont be mad. She will be happy, and that will in turn, make me happy, and you will get a better tip. I want to know what you think is a good dish, becasue you are around the food all day, if you dont like a partiular dish, thats cool, you can let me know why, if you say you dont like the fish dish beasue you dont like fish…then hey thats being honest.”
And I happen to agree with Opoponax and floraposte.
I don’t want to be treated that way and traditionally, that’s not how restaurant service works. It is the way it works now and that’s not necessarily a great thing. I think the list of “50 things restaurant staffers should never do” points to that.
@stephennmcdonald:
Can’t you not know the waiters name and have them be attentive at the same time?
In my experience the best restaurants have several staff members attending to you and you never feel bothered, you may not even notice they are there.
@thesadtomato: Fair enough for me. I rescind my Internet criticism.*
___
* In•ter•net crit•i•cism n. Criticism that is directed at a person based on the writer’s assumptions about what the other is like in real life. Typically based on two or three facts. Very rarely corresponds with reality.
@h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes: Nicely said h3llc4t. It takes nothing to be kind to someone serving your food regardless of what you make the conversation out to be, which is probably wrong. You folks need to lighten up and let go of your ego; try using empathy and know what it’s like to serve you folks complaining. Trust me, I’ve been there. You’re no picnic. I’ve heard it all, “this ain’t right, it’s too hot, “you brought me the wrong food”, “it’s too cold”, “where’s my tea”, blah, blah, blah.” And don’t even get going on being asked to watch your sh!t-stained little brats of yours that are crawling all over the damn floor and seats, bothering everyone and God, throwing temper-tantrums and throwing utensil’s at people. But oh no, I am supposed to just stand there and SMILE. I’ll smile when I shove my foot up your ass, ok? And do you even know how embarrassing it is to have YOUR CREDIT CARD denied and then having to tell YOU about it? And at the same time saying it nice and quiet so the next table of morons won’t hear it? Yep, that’s you. LOL. If you have only $50.00 left on a $3,000 limit cc, well guess what. YOU CAN’T AFFORD TO EAT A McD’s, let alone where you’re currently sitting. Go HOME because I ain’t getting’ no tip. And this is the “middle-aged” group. Let’s talk about the “college-aged” group. You know who I mean? The ones that “bundle” their meal ticket together so that one very special person pays (or gets screwed depending on how you look at it). Yeah that’s right. When I see this coming I know I am not getting a big tip, if one at all. There is always one of you in the group that underpays or doesn’t pay at all, takes off before the bill is paid, and WE get stiff for the cash from our own pocket if your “buddies” that you left behind doesn’t have enough cash to carry you through, which is rare. So please,,,,there are two sides to every story here. LOL.
@floraposte: @econobiker: Lordy, this person.
Oh my GAWD, such an entitlement whore.
I picture this person’s face swelling up and turning red as I read the comments (most of which she’s just copied bits from instead of allowing them to be on her site).
@thesadtomato: I suspect also that there are a fair amount of servers that don’t actually want to be paid friends to people whose names they don’t know and whose plates they’re carrying. I think there’s as much server protection as customer protection in taking the personal expectation out of the professional situation.
I think that “friendly” has achieved such dominance as an adjective that we sometimes have a hard time remembering that you can have warm and cordial exchanges with people just on a business footing. “Not friends” doesn’t mean cold and mean.
@econobiker: Easier than mine, I have one of those crank grinders, and I have to tighten a screw on the bottom of it to adjust the grinding.
@floraposte: Absolutely. People say they want friendly, and “friendly” to me is “familiar,” which is not cordial. Cordial used to be the standard in service. That way neither server for diner is uncomfortable.
@thesadtomato: you missed the “curb your enthusiasm” reference.
@pecan 3.14159265: it bothers me b/c essentially the waiter/ress is saying “you are all the same to me.” it would be no different than calling everyone at the table john.
@econobiker: The squat makes me feel like I’m five and they’re trying to avoid frightening me as they ask me when I last saw my mommy.
@Michael Belisle: I take prole drift to mean that things popular among proletarians drift upward to encompass things enjoyed by the middle class, so that everything is what the lowest common denominator enjoys.
Again, I used to be a server, so no, it has nothing to do with servers and everything to do with restaurateurs. I’m not saying anything about the server’s class.
In “Office Space” the owner/manager is making the server wear 15 pieces of flair and be over-friendly at Tchotchkes, and so when I walk into a restaurant (not Tchotchkes or Bennigan’s) and get the same treatment, that is prole drift.
I don’t eat at Bennigan’s or restaurants like it. That doesn’t make me an elitist any more than it makes people who don’t eat at Japanese restaurants xenophobes.
@mac-phisto: I see it as being kind of demeaning. The resaon why a waitress would call my husband hon and not my father in law is because of their age difference. Despite my husband being an adult, the waitress insists on speaking to him as a child. That’s what bothers me about waitresses calling people hon. I recognize that to me, it’s annoying, but they don’t see the problem with it so I have tried to learn to see it how they see it. I know they don’t necessarily mean any offense, but I’m (apparently) a yankee who just doesn’t like it.
@floraposte: Agreed. But some customers do want it. And from a server’s perspective, it’s better to be on top of things/more forward, make sure you’re doing the most you can do, and deal with the people who get offended because you’re trying to do your job properly.
@pecan 3.14159265: Try being a 22 year old officer in the military. My first sergeant was in the Army when I was born, but it was “yes, sir” all day long. Once you get used to it, you don’t even notice it. If you are Southern or spent time in the military, it’s a hard habit to break.
@thesadtomato: On rereading the original usage of prole drift, I see I had it backwards and your usage is correct. The thing here is that your words, as I read them, suggest that prole drift is undesirable. I’m not sure I agree, but then again, I’m a child of the suburbs. My ancestors fled the overt classism of the city for the more subtle classism in the suburbs.
@thesadtomato: @floraposte: Exactly. When a server asks me how my day is going, I reply accordingly, and then ask them how theirs is – it’s just polite.
But I don’t expect or want a server to delve into their personal life – if I’m at the office and I’m meeting someone for the first time, I wouldn’t expect or want them to go on about their personal lives – why should I want that from a waiter, who is also a complete stranger to me?
It’s not about the server – it’s about the stranger. The fact that the stranger is a waiter makes no difference to me. It’s just etiquette. Cordial is great – polite chatter, banter is great sometimes, and can make things smoother and more enjoyable. But like you would have a very light chat with a person at a person in the line at the grocery store, you would do the same with a server.
It’s the ones who think a restaurant is a good place to talk personal details who irritate me.
@floraposte: I’m not disagreeing that a lot of servers are overly forward about it, taking plates as quickly as possible and whatnot. And that is absolutely annoying as hell.
But, in my experience in many years as a server, more often than not people were very thankful when I cleared their place for them, especially around the lunch rush when they’re also trying to sit and have coffee and converse with a friend, or do work. I see nothing wrong with noticing that someone is done their plate (having signaled by putting their napkin or silverware on it), and politely asking “may I take this out of your way for you” – and perhaps it’s just where I was serving, but people seemed to be appreciative.
I’ve also had customers say to me, and I’m not kidding, “Yo, are you going to clean up these dishes, or what?” – and I don’t mean as a one-time thing.
FWIW, my side is partially based on what I as a customer think – but also the responses I’d get from customers when I was on the business end of the equation as well.
Keep in mind, you’re assuming, possibly incorrectly, that they’re trying to rush you out of your seat. More often than not (in my experience), that’s not the motive, just your interpretation – a server like me, anyway, is just trying to make sure you have a tidy place to eat. You can take as long as you want. And I’ll only come to your table to bus it when it’s obvious you’re done.
Setting aside the servers who are terrible at their job, and in your face the second you finish, or anything pushy like that – if any customer is so offended by me, as a server, trying to keep their table clean for them and removing bulky, messy plates from in front of them, regardless of whether there’s one or two stragglers still pickign at their fries – well, that customer is probably going to cause problems in other areas, from my experience. It’s not like they’re slapping you in the face with the plate, they’re (potentially) just trying to keep the table neat for you.
I speak for the good servers only. I fully admit some (many?) are pushy, and suck at their job.
All I’m saying is, try not to assume they want to push you out the door by taking your plate. It could be a perfectly innocent thing, and just as many people (from what I’ve seen) are upset when they’re forced to sit in front of a pile of food scraps for more than 10 minutes after they’re done.
@Michael Belisle: Don’t Paul Fussell’s words make it clear why prole drift would be undesirable?
@floraposte: I am not saying that’s not the case.
The point I am trying to make has more to do with whether or not some people’s expectations are reasonable.
And, in my humble opinion, some of the ones on the list are not.
@Michael Belisle: Not at all. More like “It is the opinion of the management that restaurant guests are not patronizing this restaurant for the pleasure of discovering the staff’s culinary opinions, but for the opportunity to try our food for themselves.”
Seriously, the restaurant industry is hardly the only field where professional behavior is expected of employees.
@thesadtomato: Ok, I can understand that. But, you also have to keep in mind, for a lot of people, especially families and couples, part of the experience is being served. It’s a production for some, their entertainment for the night. A server can’t necessarily know what kind of table they have at the time, so they have to assume that the person at their table wants service.
From what I’ve seen, more people will complain about poor/missing service than they will about overbearing service.
However to your point, I feel like there is a distinction between service, and overly-solicitous service as you’ve mentioned.
I’m not excusing rude or overbearing service by any means. I see from a previous post that you are or have been a server; I have as well. As I’m sure you’ve seen in your experience, there are servers who come to your table every 5 minutes, readily interrupt conversation, and are generally obnoxious by being in your face way too much, or inappropriately conversing with the table when it’s obvious they’re not welcome.
I don’t mean to defend *them* here, so I’m willing to wager we’re on the same page. My main point is that there are also servers who are legitimately concerned with the diner’s experience, and some of them believe that certain things will enhance that (the example I’ve been debating today is the pre-bus). For as many people as find that annoying and pushy, a similar number find it helpful or expected (especially when you bring families with children into the picture).
In my opinion, it’s a matter of how it’s handled – it’s one thing to wait until it’s obvious someone is done, and during a lull in table conversation walk over and ask “may I take that out of your way for you” – it’s a completely different beast to hover at the drink station staring your table down, and run over and grab plates as soon as each person finishes.
That’s why I have a problem with these kinds of lists – it all depends on the situation, and it’s hard to say “this is always right” – what’s right for diners A and B might be offensive to diner C. It’s the server’s job to determine what’s best whenever possible, based off their experience and their interaction with the table – not some random writer that’s just about to open his first restaurant and decided to blog about what he *thinks* will work.
@floraposte: To be honest, I don’t actually mind that much as a customer either way, but if I were running the place, I’d definitely prefer the staff stuck to the “only upon request.”
Exactly my point when I emphasize that this is written from management’s perspective.
Although I can see why management thinks it’s a good idea to limit the ability of your minions to exhibit independent thought, this is also why I hated working for corporate-run chains in the service industry. Corporate would dictate rules from hundreds of miles away, with the expectation that employees were to strictly follow instructions, and never deviate from the script. If a situation arose that wasn’t foreseen by corporate, then we were supposed to get a manager, rather than solve it ourselves.
More often, we’d just try to get the problem to go away, because that’s less work for the same amount of pay. These 100 rules of operation isn’t the way to build employee morale. And more often than not, unhappy employees directly results in unhappy customers.
@mythago: Yes, but customers love to kill the messenger. In any case you’re thinking of the glass as half-empty; a server like me would have saved your life by preventing you from ordering anything that could possibly have a trace of peanuts, even if the cook says “no” when asked. This process also probably deprived my other customers from receiving their orders in a timely manner, drink refills, or other assistance. Again, you’re welcome.
True, the owner could hire legal kitchen staff, and pay all their employees a living wage with health benefits (on top of all the insane licenses to operate a restaurant, which are necessary to protect the consumer). Are you willing to pay more of a markup on the product?
@stephennmcdonald: I think what floraposte is trying to say is that it’s good business to play it safe. Don’t volunteer your name. Don’t volunteer your opinions of the menu. Don’t compliment the guests.
Of course, it depends on the customer, and you’re free to use your judgement on a case by case basis. If the guest asks for your name, or asks what your opinions are on the menu, you’re free to share. But as a general rule it may be wise to keep personal remarks to yourself.
@stephennmcdonald: I’m using the old-fashioned meaning of “personal remarks,” which are remarks about one’s person–in other words, I’m speaking specifically about the “complimenting” thing here. I haven’t heard anybody say that they won’t return to a restaurant where the waitperson didn’t compliment their appearance.
@floraposte:
Well. . .When DID you last see your mommy?
@stephennmcdonald: Very well put, especially from a server perspective. It’s probably clear then, that for the restaurant this guy is going to open, if the servers follow these rules, I’ll be a happy customer.
I think what I wanted to draw attention to is that this kind of over-solicitousness is becoming the norm, and it’s at the expense of what I consider truly good service.
My manager used to say “The best waiter is invisible.” I.e., the best waiter doesn’t let the customer know he’s there, he knows when to approach the table and when to remove things and doesn’t have to be asked. You have to have a skill set to do that and it’s a stressful job.
@Michael Belisle: Actually, what management wants to avoid is servers offending their customers through “independent thoughts” that are offensive, stupid and/or rude. Really, I doubt the restaurant owner has a deep desire to see bar codes stamped on the waiters’ foreheads.
@mythago: I know that’s one thing they’re trying to avoid, but my point is that most servers are not out to offend and strive not to offend. If you hire a server who’s an ass, 100 rules isn’t going to change the fact that they’re an ass. Better to hire people with competent people skills and give them leeway to serve the customers, rather than saddling the with a detailed corporate manual on how to be a corporate robot.
If management feels the need to impose 100 rules on their staff, then management has said that they hired people they can’t trust to use good judgement when dealing with customers.
@sardonumspa: Cheerfulness is usually appreciated by everyone, but specific personality traits may have trouble reaching an audience. I might be sarcastic with my friends, but you don’t get too far if you miss your mark and your sarcasm comes off as rudeness.
@sardonumspa: Right, but this list is from a business owner, and if I’m a business owner, I DO want to be “walking on eggshells” around my customers so they come back!
It would be a fairly stupid life-rule, but I don’t think it’s a bad service-industry rule at all. I can think of a few things people have said to me in my life that either came across as backhanded compliments, or that accidentally hit on a tender spot, and it made me feel uncomfortable or awkward. That’s not what I want my patrons feeling. (And I can remember a couple people who went out of their way to be bitches while in a service position, but I think we can all agree that’s a bad idea.)
I mostly go out to casual places when I go out to eat where the servers chat with you and it’s very friendly, and it doesn’t bother me a bit. But this list is clearly aimed at a particular upscale dining “experience” where they’re trying to create a certain atmosphere, and you’re going to set a much higher standard of “eggshells” for that.
@sardonumspa: Your favorite pastime is willful misreading, isn’t it?
@mythago: ‘But the situation is not “the customer is unreasonable for expecting that an order will be relayed accurately to the kitchen staff, who will then understand the order and prepare the food accordingly.”‘
I neither said nor implied this. What I am saying is that I’ll risk appearing rude if I feel there’s a reasonable chance I cannot guarantee the food will be free of the offending ingredient. One day at a previous place of employment, the owner and I were opening for brunch and a woman who had received her take-out the day before had spent the evening in the emergency room due to the fact an item contained shellfish (this is not mentioned in this item’s ingredients on the menu). I sternly warned the owner that we needed to reprint the menu to include this information, and that we were extremely lucky the customer did not threaten legal action; the information went in one ear and out the other.
Currently as a producer, I frequently have to cover my boss’s ass. I’m also forbidden from mentioning certain other details, so I also often have to lie. During most instances in which I’ve given a client a subtle warning in the interest of what’s best for everyone and the project, they have little or no appreciation that I’m putting my job on the line for their benefit.
@catastrophegirl: You’re welcome!
@Opoponax: How are you calling these meaningless questions? Bottled water or tap, fresh pepper. etc. Is how restaurants take care of people. That is catering to the customer! Otherwise you don’t ask the questions and assume that fresh pepper is or isn’t needed. Etc.
I guess what I’m saying is, would you prefer to have your server not ask those questions?!?
I’m also pretty sure they ask these question almost as much at fancy places as they do less fancy ones. What I suspect is that you take more notice of it when it’s a “low-level” restaurant b/c you’re already put off by it being a “low-level” restaurant.
@biswalt: It sounds to me like maybe you’re a low-talker?
Bwa-ha-ha! ME? Not a chance. No, I’m talking about a very obvious “let’s get chummy” move. Used to annoy the heck out of me.
@biswalt: I have a brilliant idea:
NAMETAGS!
No need to thank me, really. All in a day’s work.
@GearheadGeek: I’m actually from Pennsylvania, very much a Yankee, filled with north eastern impatience and cute quips like youse meaning you guys. I just prefer “you all” because it sounds sweet instead of uneducated.