Chase Thinks Reader Has Amazing Bilocating Credit Card
Chase's fraud department apparently thinks that Jake is lying. A few weeks ago, they called him about some suspicious activity on his credit card. Jake and his wife verified that the transactions were neither his nor his wife's, the Chase representative instructed them to destroy their cards, and that was that. Until a week and a half later, when a fraud specialist called them back to deny their fraud claim, claiming repeatedly that his story "doesn't jive."
I returned a call from Chase bank on October 14th regarding my credit card, and was asked about some suspicious purchases, including a $289.45 purchase from Walmart and a $26.26 purchase from McDonald's. Because my wife and I don't use this card for anything other than a couple of subscription services (Netflix, Zune, etc.), and also because we haven't shopped at Walmart or McDonald's for several months, I was very confident that this was a fraudulent use of my card. The individual from Chase informed me that I would not be charged for these purchases, and that the cards would be canceled and new cards would be issued. She gave the impression of a situation handled, and gave me no instructions other than to shred our existing cards, which we did both have in our wallets. No problem, life goes on, I thought.
Then, a week and a half later, I got a call on Friday afternoon from a fraud specialist at Chase. She questioned me a little bit, and arrived at the conclusion that this situation was not fraud. Apparently, the purchases were made very close to where we used to live. She asked if we'd filed a police report, I said no, because I'd never been in this situation before, and the other woman I had spoken to didn't give me any instructions. She made it sound like everything was going to be handled on their end. The fraud specialist said that they had identified it as my card specifically, and not my wife's, and was very confident that my physical card was present. The problem is, my wallet and I were 50 miles away that day at a hospital for a new job orientation.
So, she suggested maybe a friend I wouldn't suspect used my card and and put it back. Except that's not possible either, because I didn't see anyone between the last time the card was used and when Chase instructed me to shred it. Except my wife, of course, who wouldn't lie about this, and also hates Walmart and McDonald's.
The fraud specialist kept repeating her phrase of choice, "It just doesn't jive", which just made me increasingly more agitated.
With that, she informed me that my fraud claim was denied, and that I should file a police report and obtain security video from Walmart. I would need to provide this video to Chase, along with photo ID, so she could verify that I was not present at Walmart. Despite my extreme distress and confusion, she offered me no possible explanation for how my exact card could be used in Portland, OR when I was 50 miles away in Salem.
My question is, besides filing a police report, which I have done now, what should I do? And how can she be so confident that my card was used, when I know it wasn't? What else could have happened?
We would guess that Jake's card had been cloned somehow—perhaps from an ATM skimmer, or dishonest waitstaff in a restaurant. Where have they used this card in the past year?
However, a few questions remain for Jake to ask Chase, if he hasn't already:
- Why were these two transactions flagged as fraudulent in the first place? Was it because of the retailer, the location, or another reason?
- Why is Jake responsible for obtaining surveillance video from Walmart?
- Will proving that he was not the person who made the purchases get these transactions reclassified as fraud?
Good luck, Jake, and keep us updated.
UPDATE: A few readers pointed us toward this delightful gem from the U.S. Code, which dictates that the burden of proof is on Chase, not Jake.
(b) Burden of proof
In any action by a card issuer to enforce liability for the use of a credit card, the burden of proof is upon the card issuer to show that the use was authorized or, if the use was unauthorized, then the burden of proof is upon the card issuer to show that the conditions of liability for the unauthorized use of a credit card, as set forth in subsection (a) of this section, have been met.
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Comments:
@TheOrtega: Well, given the purchase history (small, monthly subscriptions under 25 bucks) something 10x that size would probably stand out, regardless of location
My question is why a purchase at a local Walmart and McDonalds would have caused a flag in the first place. Also, does anyone know what laws exist to prevent Chase from turning this on him?
Good one! "Why were the transactions flagged?"
and if his friend took it, that's fraud too.
But what if it's the thief that is calling Jake?
@CompyPaq:
It was probably the amount of that purchase from McDonald's. Only a criminal could run up a bill that high.
Burden of proof
In any action by a card issuer to enforce liability for the use of a credit card, the burden of proof is upon the card issuer to show that the use was authorized or, if the use was unauthorized, then the burden of proof is upon the card issuer to show that the conditions of liability for the unauthorized use of a credit card, as set forth in subsection (a) of this section, have been met.
Jake has very strong arguments to why they weren't his transactions, but Chase is openly calling him a liar.
From my perspective, why would I ever want to do business with Chase? If my card gets skimmed and I need their help, they're just going to call me a liar too.
Many years ago I had a coworker steal and use my card, the CC company investigated and we figured out who stole it.
I got a phone call after I thought the issue had been resolved accusing me of being in cahoots with the person who stole my card. They said the stores had described me as a person with the guy. They were testing me to see if I broke, and nothing came of it after I explained to them I wasn't involved, but she was very aggressive in accusing me.
Some investigators may do this just to see if the cardholder is in collusion, even if there is no evidence. If they wanted you to fill out a report they would of asked you, for me they didn't.
By their own procedures you are not responsible unless they can show fraud on your part, which they can't. It won't take much push back from you to get the charges credited.
Around this time last year I got a call from Chase's fraud department. Apparently my card was used online for some strange purchase. Like the OP, I was only using this particular card for very specific purchases. (At the time it was only being used for iTunes).
Anyway, Chase called me to inform me about this. They asked me some questions to verify my identity which I answered correctly. However, they were not satisfied with that and kept asking, "are you sure this is ..." Which was really weird... Anyway, they said they would have to call back with a supervisor, etc. Supervisor calls back and I answer the same questions again, all answered correctly. At this point, though, they start asking even more specific questions, like addresses where I lived decades ago, etc. I have a really good memory and can answer these on a dime and I was just rattling them off. Once again the supervisor kept asking if this was someone else other than me! Good grief. It raised some red flags with me, too. So I told her I would have to call them back. Called Chase using the number on the back of the card and after 10 minutes navigating the menu I spoke with the Fraud Department and they verified that they spoke to me twice that day and that they were unsure of my identity, etc.
Anyway, a week later I got a letter stating that the investigation was complete and that my money from the fraudulent purchases was refunded.
I still wish I could punch that idiot CSR in the face, though.
@frank64: Jake is NOT responsible for getting surveillance videos or investigating. If they request he should fill out a police report otherwise, if this is the only breach it would be a waste of time.
They are just being jerks to see what they can get away with.
Well, I did ask why I was flagged, and she said it was possibly because I do never use the card, and suddenly it was in use at retail again. Also, there was a charge from "DVD Express" that originated in New York, but she said that is probably one of those kiosks like redbox and that the transaction just shows New York. However, I know she was the real deal. Among other things, the charges, which had been "adjusted" after speaking with the first lady, were placed back on my statement after speaking with the Fraud Specialist.
The only thing I can take credit for here, as far as I know, is not filing a police report in the first place. But they sure should have made that more clear the first time they spoke to me.
And yes, if I provide her with the Wal Mart footage and our photo IDs, which I don't really want them to have their hands on, then they will reclassify the charges as fraudulent.
And yeah, Mackinstyle, I will be canceling this account. Not how I expect to be treated.
@frank64: Just say that I missed you you filled out the police report. You job is done. I bet your next phone call gets the charges credited.
@CompyPaq: In other words, the burden is upon Chase to prove the transactions were authorized. So they should be the ones pulling security videos, matching up faces, etc. Right?
@xJake: Why don't you call them back and ask to speak to another fraud specialist or a supervisor? Use the above quote provided by CompyPaq from Cornell Law regarding Chase's burden of proof, which clearly indicates you are not responsible for proving the fraud. If you say it's fraudulent use, they need to accept that.
Don't just cancel your card (which may hurt your credit score) do something about their behavior. If all else fails, try an EECB.
Since Chase denied your claim you have the right to have them provide you with copies of the documents they used for there investigation.
Chase: We think you made these charges. Prove a negative!
I'm sure someone can come up with a reference, but it is the customer's responsibility to REPORT fraud. It isn't their responsibility to PROVE fraud.
@xJake: What would you even tell the police, though? Nobody stole your card. Wouldn't they/won't they just tell you to talk to your card issuer? And if the card issuer was who notified you, wouldn't they have told you to call the police if that's what should be done?
I'm speaking as somebody who just dealt with a set of fraudulent charges from a cloned card myself. I'm sure it helped that I'd gotten the advance warning that my number had been included in the big Heartland compromise, but still--it just took the one call, they wiped the charges and changed the account, the end.
@floraposte: Sorry, that may sound as if I'm dubiously questioning you, when I'm really questioning them.
Good luck getting surveillance footage from WalMart. I imagine they won't turn it over without a subpoena.
@robf70837: I'm sure it'll be filled with hard-core facts about the investigation like "I think he's a liar" and "customer refused to cooperate"... ending with "nah nah NA boo-boo, we aren't gonna credit YOUUUUU"
The other questions he needs to askare;
Will I be compensated for my time dealing with police reports and getting video footage.
His line of attack could be for chase to compare his purchase history with the card to the fraudulent purchases.
Are
Does Jake have a receipt for lunch or a toll receipt for his trip.
PS I know who used his card.... Colonel Mustard in the library.....
This is why I am glad I no longer have debit cards and have never had credit cards (albeit because I suck at mangaging bank accounts, but whatever)
@TheOrtega: I had my wallet stolen in college and Wachovia called me when my debit card was used to buy hair extensions and 'gold' jewelry from a mall kiosk. Clearly, as a white male, these items are on my normal purchase list, so I have no idea how Wachovia knew to call me.
@xJake: Rather than Wal-Mart surveillance, which they probably won't hand over to you, get an affidavit from your employer. If you use time-cards, you can even get a copy of that. That should be all you need. I do believe you're still innocent until proven guilty in this country. Though I could be wrong...
@Esquire99: This is 100% correct. Without a subpoena, or shoplifting, they do not and will not turn over surveilance footage.
At this point, it would probably be a good idea to start interacting with Chase in writing, starting by sending off a letter to them summarizing the situation, and denying that you made those charges.
As we all know, proving that a rep was accusatory over the phone is pretty difficult to do.
Good luck!
@Optimistic Prime: Innocent until proven guilty before the government. Chase Bank is another matter.
I'm pretty surprised that they wouldn't just take his word for this kind of thing. It's not like we're talking about thousands of dollars. I would probably tell them that I would take my business elsewhere.
And I don't know if it was the Chase person or the writer who got it wrong, but the term is "doesn't jibe."
Why even carry a card that you only use for subscription services? That's just one more thing making your wallet fat.
I record my phone conversations. All of them. Nice to have. Once a tape is full and nothing of importance is on it, I just record over it.
As for Jake, perhaps your wife took it, gave it to a friend who used it while you were abducted by aliens?
Chase is telling you "you are a liar". Period. Now if this had happened before I could see them being suspicious but it is obvious they hate their customers. Their card users are thieves and are not to be trusted or treated with respect.
I laugh at anyone asking Wal-Mart for their tapes. "Here you go, sir! (smiley face) Bring it back when you all through, OK?". LOL
Oh, Chase Fraud Department? I speak Jive.
Jake said that he didn't commit the fraud, and he's really pissed off that you aren't believing him. He wants to know if you can help him and stop blaming him.
@xJake:I'm so sorry, dude. All I can add is that I really hope things get sorted out. Chase dicked around with me, albeit in a different manner, and I chose to take the hit on my credit and cancel my account with them rather than do business any longer. They are an evil, evil company.
@CompyPaq: Not sure, maybe the distance from where his actual address is?
I was on vacation in CA, living in NYC at the time, and made a purchase at Target. Literally as I walked out the doors of the Target I got a call from my CCs fraud dept to make sure the purchase was indeed legit.
That was a difference of a couple thousand miles though, not 50.
@xJake: Them asking you about a police report is ridiculous.
I was contacted years ago by the fraud dept from a card of mine, saying there were 2 charges on my card that were suspicious. Both for Sprint PCS in amounts like $300 and $500. All I had to do was tell them I didn't make them and didn't even have a cell phone from Sprint. End of story.
Never saw the charges, never heard from them again.
I would have never thought of filing a police report. How would I file it?
"Um, hello police. My CC called me and told me someone used my credit card somehow. I still have it yes, no I have no clue who, when, where or how this may have happened. Nor do I have any proof since the phone call I just received is the first I've heard of it."
@frank64:
Even using their logic, I fail to see how it could help if he got the tapes.
You're not going to be able to see who is using your credit card number just by seeing people going through lines at the cash register.
Unless he can get access to what exactly was bought at Wal-Mart with his card and at what time. Then if he he sees one person in the line buying exactly those things, but that still doesn't help.
I highly doubt WalMart would hand over their tapes to him, anyway.
@GitEmSteveDave_Marryin'Couples: So much win its not even fair.
It's pretty sad that a movie that old is still completely valid satire on companies today.
@JennyDreadful: You're absolutely right--without a search warrant or a subpoena, he is going to get exactly jack shit from Wal-Mart.
My car was hit in their parking lot about 4 and a half years ago and they wouldn't look at anything without a subpoena.
They probably are thinking if you don't fight it you are guilty and if you do you aren't.
@Esquire99: Correct, and even if they did, why should Jake assume Chase will handle it properly?
This is a stalling tactic from Chase.
@savdavid: You do? I hope you inform the person on the other end before you start a conversation that they are being taped.
@mythago:
I'd say it's more than a stalling tactic; it's more like a shutting-him-out completely tactic.
@mythago: In a lot of states, only one of the two parties has to know that the call is being recorded. If he lives in one of these states, he would qualify as that one person.
@Cant_stop_the_rock: Well in this case, by carrying it he knows for certain it wasn't being used 50 miles away at the time of the supposed use.
When I had a Chase-backed brokerage account debit card that was used fraudulently (by an ex-wife) I simply had to sign an affidavit stating that the charges were not made by me. There was a free-form field to write what I suspect may have happened, such as "I lost the card at the mall" or such as the case was, "this is my ex who apparently didn't ditch the old card"
Not once was it suggested that I was in the wrong or that I was even remotely responsible for the charges. They were immediately reversed pending receipt of the affidavit, and never appeared again. I was asked if I filed a police report, but it was not required.
It's appalling and downright scary that Chase would act this way when that type of protection is something just about everyone comes to expect.
Where the fraud people real fraud people? Why would a purchase at a local Walmart flag in their system? Any smart kids in the house?