There is a reason that I am not a pilot and the reason is this: I am afraid I would get bored, start messing around with my laptop and miss Minnesota. Unfortunately for Northwest Airlines, they don’t hire people who utilize my rigorous program of self-doubt.
The Wall Street Journal says the pilots of Northwest Flight 188 “told investigators that they were poring over their personal laptops in the cockpit while frantic air-traffic controllers were trying to establish contact.”
The in-flight distractions also included bathroom breaks (understandable) and some chit chatting with a flight attendant.
The WSJ says:
The missteps began when a female flight attendant brought meals into the cockpit and the captain ducked out for a bathroom break, according to people familiar with the details
The flight attendant stayed inside the cockpit for a brief chat, just as controllers were instructing the crew to switch to another radio frequency. The co-pilot, engaged in conversation with her, missed the instruction, and the captain didn’t return until later, according to consultant Greg Feith, a former safety board investigator.
As the plane crossed state lines, neither pilot realized the jet no longer was on the correct radio frequency and that controllers were growing worried about their failure to stay in contact.
As they flew past Minnesota, the crew started a heated discussion about a new scheduling system.
Both pilots retrieved their laptops, and the first officer demonstrated to the captain how the new scheduling system worked.
During what the safety board described as a “concentrated period of discussion,” neither pilot monitored the progress of the airplane nor air-traffic control communications. The pilots failed to notice when Northwest dispatchers sent repeated messages that popped up on the cockpit display screens.
Eventually a flight attendant asked them if they should prepare for landing and they realized they’d blown past Minnesota. That must have been one hell of an interesting scheduling system.
Laptops Cited For Pilot Inattention [WSJ]
(Photo:So Cal Metro)
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This clarifies it a little bit that they requested a frequency change. I was wondering how in the heck they could ignore radio communications for 150 miles, but if there were none then I can sort of understand.
What I don’t get is that the pilots thought they could *lie* about it. Cockpit voice recorder helooo?
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already:
When did they lie about it?
@treimel: they changed the story didn’t they? I thought they originally were too engrossed in a conversation about company policy to notice minnesota.
@The Porkchop Express: It’s not so much that they changed it–they’re still saying they were talking about company policy–as the original version omitted the key detail of the (forbidden) laptop use. Presumably there’s scheduling software or rules or something that they were going over.
@The Porkchop Express:
I’d say they *added* to their story–but I see your point; their initial explanation was incomplete, if not misleading.
@treimel: Yeah, you’re right there. I didn’t notice the part where they were still engrossed in conversation as well.
Damn reading skills.
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: The CVR didn’t cover the relevant time.
@floraposte: I thought they were on all the time? If not, that’s kinda.. useless, no?
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: On older planes the CVR only keeps a buffer going of 30 minutes of conversation – which in the event of a crash is all they would technically need I suppose. Newer planes have models that now can record an entire flight.
@floraposte: So I was right in the original post! GitEmSteveDave got one right!
@GitEmSteveDave_FullOfEvilClowns: Yup, you sure did. Will it be celebrated in a name change?
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: I think it’s funny that Delta is sending all the passengers $500 travel vouchers for their inconvenience, while every time I get stuck in a one-hour holding pattern outside BWI, I don’t get squat.
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: There is no voice record of the period in question (only the last 30 minutes of the flight).
I also don’t think they lied about it. If I recall correctly, they initially said they were in a heated discussion and not asleep. While we have more details about the “heated” scheduling discussion, it’s not incompatible with the original, limited account of what happened.
@Michael Belisle: Oops, my apologies for the redundant post. Had my comments in classic view.
Oh the days, when we had to read the whole thread to see if someone had set the record straight.
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: @Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: Only 30 minutes of conversation, That’s the key here. They just wanted to stay in the air until the evidence went away!
I wonder what really happened, most of the pilots I know are counting time till they land,letting alone 150 miles of grief!
I’m just waiting for this to turn into a ban on passenger laptops in the cabin.
@dwasifar: That’s a pretty cynical outlook.
@dwasifar: Yes, because the pilots are going to come into the passenger cabin and TAKE SOMEONE’S LAPTOP.
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already: What, you think they won’t do it just because it doesn’t make any sense? Have you looked at some of the other things they do, like, say, barring coach passengers from using the forward lavatory? Airline policies are in a constant state of wild overreaction. I don’t really think they will ban passenger laptops, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.
@dwasifar: They’ve barred coach passengers from using higher-class lavatories for ages.
@floraposte: Yes, they have always tried to keep coach passengers in the back lavs, but since shortly after 9/11 they always claim it’s due to TSA or FAA regulations (depending on which lie the particular airline chooses to promulgate).
The real reason, of course, is to keep the rabble out of first class. But it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to someone in Row 4 that he has to go all the way to the back of the plane when there is a perfectly good bathroom only 15 feet in front of him. So the airline lies and says it’s the law, the same way they lie about weather and flight delays and what the flight attendants can tell you to do, which is basically anything they want as long as they say it’s for security.
@dwasifar: Erm, the First Class lav has always been for First Class. Not for c@talonscar:
The problem REALLY is the post-911 policy of LOCKING THE PILOTS IN THE COCKPIT. The flight attendants do not have access to them, aside from walkie-talkie or whatever. If they were allowed in, the pilots probably would have wanted to at least look like they were working in case of the attendants decided to check in and see if they wanted a cup of coffee.
@dwasifar: Certainly, because I know when I’m a passenger I am responsible for flying the plane.
Was the plane above 10,000 feet? You know if you use unauthorized electrical devices below 10,000 feet the plane will explode, right?
Shouldn’t the planes have a GPS, cant they give text to speech for the GPS that will say something like you have reached your destination, it is time to land the plane.
This way even if there not focusing, they will hear the warning and get back to work.
@Razor512: They shouldn’t be not focusing in the first place! They’re flying a plane with a ton of people on board. The LAST thing they need to be doing is not paying attention…
@reishka: Autopilot does most of the work outside of takeoff/landing and emergency situations.
@OrtizDupri:
Autopilot does the landing in some newer airplanes and under some conditions.
@OrtizDupri: Doesn’t matter. Just because you have autopilot doesn’t mean you’re relieved of duty. If you are a pilot, your whole JOB is to be paying attention. We already have enough issues with planes crashing and helicopters crashing into each other under the best of conditions and with pilots paying attention. The last thing we need is for a pilot to not do so.
@Razor512: “Please make a legal U-Turn”
@Traveshamockery: Awesome!
@Razor512: Seriously! I know Grumpy Garmin gets really irritated with me when I’m not paying attention and don’t turn where she wants me to. She just keeps saying “Recalculating… recalculating…turn around idiot” Seems they would have something similar when the masses have something that simple.
@TheGreenMnM: I use the stern Austrian voice. It makes me feel like I am being disciplined by a Mistress, and I don’t have to pay $200 an hour!
@GitEmSteveDave_FullOfEvilClowns: I’m confused. How is it sexual to have a GPS to tell you to “throw another shrimp on the barbie” and “fair dinkum”?
@floraposte: Done, and done!
@GitEmSteveDave_TimesRight:1 TimesWrong:∞: That made me laugh not only out loud, but also long.
@GitEmSteveDave_Right: 1 Wrong: ∞: Oh that was good.
@Razor512:
I think it’s expected that you’re paying attention, especially as you approach your destination. For such a system to work properly, it would have to alert you x number of miles out, which would depend entirely on aircraft speed, altitude and capabilities.
Another reason for no free wi-fi on planes!
So talking on your cell phone and texting while driving is bad, but both pilots being on their personal laptops is ok?
@xay: Contrary to popular belief the pilots are not in full on Top Gun mode for an entire flight. Autopilot actually flies the plane the majority of the time. I don’t think you can compare it to driving a car at all.
@veronykah: The pilots missed their destination and did not notice air traffic control communications. I think the severe lack of attention is comparable to driving a car while texting or on your cell.
@xay: Yeah, except all they ran into was more air and clouds rather than cars and people.
@xay: And it’s not considered okay.
@floraposte: They violated company policy, not FAA policy. Other companies, like JetBlue, actually require laptop use in the cockpit.
@Michael Belisle: Fair enough; I didn’t know that. I was speaking broadly to the commenters who seem to be saying “Why is this considered okay?” when the point is that these guys screwed up and are in trouble for it rather than being let slide. In fact, the FAA just pulled their licenses.
So wait, we can’t start up our laptops because they may interfere with the instruments, but the people closest to the actual instruments themselves can? Uhhhhhhhhh.
@GitEmSteveDave_FullOfEvilClowns: Mythbusters proved pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt that a cell phone does jack to avionics. Having been on numerous planes recently where people just tuck their phones away and don’t turn them off, I would tend to agree.
Though of course, my experience does not negate whatever real evidence (if any) there is out there, and tbh I haven’t looked.
@Oranges w/ Cheese wants it to be winter already:
I haven’t seen that Mythbusters, but I can tell you from personal experience that some cellphones produce at least mild radio interference.
Back when I used to flight instruct, I had a student who was a contractor. He carried a Sprint/Nextel phone with the two-way capability. Anytime anyone tried to get in touch with him, it would make the radios in the plane buzz. Not really a huge deal, but enough to be annoying and could be problematic if we were on a busy frequency and couldn’t hear a call because of the interference.
@Esquire99: All GSM phones cause amplifiers to buzz when in close proximity (we’re talking <3 feet here). It certainly doesn’t hurt anything, however. And there’s no way a GSM phone in the passenger area would make an amplifier in the cockpit buzz.
@Ursus Maritimus:
Not all of the radioes are in the cockpit. Many are remote-mounted with a control head upfront.
@GitEmSteveDave_Right: 1 Wrong: ∞: That’s only during takeoff and landing. These pilots were only trying to keep the passengers safe by not landing the plane while they were using their laptops. When they were done, they merely turned the plane around and landed without incident. What’s all the hub-bub?
Or, maybe these guys should have been eating brownies, and, um, maybe pizza:
Hold the mayo? Not when it comes to astute pilots
GRAND FORKS, N.D. – Running a marathon, grab a carbohydrate bar. Lifting weights, gulp a protein shake. But climbing into a fighter jet? Butter-soaked lobster might help.
That was the surprising finding of a new military-funded study that sought to figure out what types of foods were best for pilots when missions restricted when or what they could eat. University of North Dakota researchers found that pilots who ate the fattiest foods such as butter or gravy had the quickest response times in mental tests and made fewer mistakes when flying in tricky cloud conditions.
Full story here: [www.ajc.com]
I think they were leveling up in World Of Warcraft.
@Bitter_Old_Punk: My mom suggested they were playing bejeweled.
@Bitter_Old_Punk: Hey now, you can’t expect people to drop in the middle of a raid just because they have to land a plane.
@mythago: Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!!!!!
@Bitter_Old_Punk: That sounds a little better than Flight Simulator.
“Hey Bruce, I think I just figured out how we want to land this thing.”
@rpm773: HAHA, flight sim.. nice
I was thinking they were engrossed by reading consumerist.
Urgleglurk pretty much called it–they were indeed talking about the effect of the NWA/Delta merger, though on scheduling rather than senority: [www.nytimes.com]
The flight data recorder erases over itself and it only saves the final 30 minutes. I bet they just kept flying in silence to erase what happened when the flight attendant entered the cockpit.
I’m just picturing what they were REALLLLLLY talking about that they had to “overshoot” and clear out the audio recording.
Clarence Oveur: Do you want to see the cool new logo for the plane I designed? It’s drawn in vector.
Victor: Huh?
Roger Murdock:: And did you see my new bag? I didn’t think my lappy would fit in, but it has just enough clearance.
Clarence Oveur: Wha?
Any other ideas?
@GitEmSteveDave_FullOfEvilClowns: Surely you can’t be serious!
@Liam Kinkaid: He is serious. And don’t call him Shirley. It aggravates his drinking problem.
@dwasifar: Cut me som’ slack jakc! Chump don wan no help, chump don git no help. Jive ass dude don got no brains anyhow.
@GitEmSteveDave_FullOfEvilClowns: Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
@GitEmSteveDave_Right: 1 Wrong: ∞: I picked the wrong week to stop making puns.
@treimel: There was controversy and the pilots weren’t coming clean. People were speculating they were asleep at the wheel.
After the Colgan Air tragedy earlier this year, people came out of the woodwork screaming about FAA regulations about excessive and extraneous chatter during flight. I’m curious because I haven’t seen a single similar statement about this incident, just jokes about pr0n and WOW.
@CracktheCrown: Cruise and ascent/descent have different rules; the Colgan crew violated the no-extraneous-chatter rules during descent (supposed to have a “sterile cockpit”). Extraneous chatter wouldn’t have been a violation in itself for the Northwest pilots.
I also think people react differently to a situation wherein people actually died.
@Caged Wisdom: Oh, I see. And since they were still in flight it only got the last 30 minutes. Well I think this little escapade is going to get most of those replaced ASAP.
First, the phrase “my rigorous program of self-doubt” is the best thing I’ve read all day.
Second, “new scheduling system” must be code for “porn”.
@Hank Scorpio: I am no longer vaguely ashamed that I was thinking “they were probably looking at porn”.
I need to call hogwash on this laptop excuse. While it’s completely reprehensible on its own, aren’t there reports that contact was attempted not only via ATC but also via company phone and from other aircraft in the vicinity? Not only that, but the autopilot (while not exactly having a “you have arrived at your destination” chime), would have had an indication that they had reached their T/D (top of descent) point in their flight plan. There are simply too many alerts and too much time that passed for me to believe they were just chatting about company policy over their computers.
How does a change radio frequency instruction work? I guess I’d expect some sort of acknowledgment from the flight that they received and executed the change frequency instruction before assuming that they were on the new frequency.
@Wuhao:
Controller says “Flight xxxxx, change to Minneapolis Center, 128.25″
crew should respond, “Roger, Flight xxxx over to Minneapolis at 128.25″
if no response, the controller shouldn’t assume they changed.
@Wuhao: Also, if you told someone to change frequencies, and after you did they stopped responding to you, wouldn’t you go back and check if they were still on the old one?
@Areia:
The frequency change is usually to a different controller. If there is no response when the change instruction is given, it’s not uncommon for the controller issuing it to contact the would-be new controller and see if they got in touch. It’s possible the plane was in range for reception but out of range for transmission back to the controller. If the “new” controller says he hasn’t heard from them, they go into the mode they did here: keep trying them, ask other planes to try, etc.
@Esquire99: We can listen to Howard Stern (satelite radio) for hundreds of miles in a Toyota but a Boeing needs to be in range of a tower?
@Hoss:
Not a “tower” but a Air Route Traffic Control Center. All radio communications with aircraft are still ground-station based.
@Wuhao: The actual pilots here will know more, but my understanding is that they usually do acknowledge a handoff, and their missing the acknowledgment was one of the first things to raise a red flag.
I just can’t buy this story. Pilots know what they’re doing, they know how long flights last, they would have flown over radio markers that would signal them, they would have noticed a lack of radio communication if they were on the wrong frequency.
I feel like, unless someone can prove otherwise, I will always assume the pilots were asleep. (e.g., did the flight DATA recorder show that the pilots made any adjustments or touched the controls whatsoever during their “blackout”?)
@schwnj:
You’d be surprised how easy it is to “space out” when you’re flying. A normal, long flight is pretty monotonous. Further, there aren’t really “radio markers” as you imagine them to alert you. As far as navigation, you do have to pay attention to it, there aren’t really warning bells that go off if you miss something. Further, one article said they continued to hear radio chatter but didn’t hear anything for them. You can go a LONG time on a frequency and hear nothing for you from the controller. I’ve been on flights where I checked in on freq., was acknowledged, and didn’t hear from the controller (for me, at least) until he told me to switch to the next freq.
@Esquire99: Yeah, but c’mon. For an hour? And then their stories changed?
I admit I thought they were probably watching porn rather than sleeping.
@Esquire99: But you’d think that hearing “Northwest 188, this is Minneapolis Center on Guard” would be unusual enough to get their attention. Especially when the controller is repeating this non-routine message several times. And the SELCAL chimes are also going off. Oh, and center is also asking other aircraft to relay a call to Northwest 188. Even if you’re not “Northwest 188″, your hair kind of starts standing on end when you hear that kind of radio traffic. If you ARE “Northwest 188″, it’s impossible to miss. If you’re conscious.
None of this makes any sense if the pilots weren’t asleep. Or doing something so unimaginably irresponsible that their story about being engrossed in their laptops seems downright innocent by comparaison.
@schwnj: The orbiting Exit Signs would have worked, but those damn kids went up and tagged the Hell out of ‘em.
That story sounds a LOT better than:
“I stepped out of the cabin for 45 minutes while the co-pilot railed the flight attendant. No one was paying attention to piloting the plane.”
@talonscar: That’s how I read it. The flight attendant entered the cockpit and the Pilot exited. Then they stopped communicating with the ground. Hrmmm…
@talonscar: When you look at it that way, it’s quite obvious.
Flight attendant steps in, pilot steps out.
They are “engrossed.”
Pilot comes back in much later.
@pz: Poor guy didn’t get to take his turn.
@morlo: Dunno where you’re getting the FA in all this. If something exciting happened, it was between the two pilots.
And yeah, I have to fly NWA later because they are one of the only companies that will fly me to my European destination for under $1500.00
@colorisnteverything: Better get extra life insurance before you go. Clearly this incident is emblematic of unsafely distracted pilots at Niggaz With Attitude airlines.
Slate’s Explainer has a good piece on how the pilots could have possibly missed over an hour of radio calls: [www.slate.com]
I’m sorry, I think we have the right to expect the pilot(s) to pay attention to flying the damned plane! That IS their job. That IS what they are paid for.
@Gracegottcha: Just as we expect food handlers, assembly workers, security guards, and babysitters to pay attention to their jobs — all of whom make a lot less than pilots. Yet their inattention could also make things uncomfortable or deadly.
Is there any job out there where one isn’t expected to “pay attention”?
@mianne: Actually unless you are a plane captain on major routes you really don’t make that much. You start around $20k flying regionals and may be up to $50k after 5-7 years. When you move up to national level copilot you drop back down to $35k and can work your way up to about $80k. You only make the 6-figure money when you’re flying the long international routes. Pilots are paid significantly less than they were 20 years ago.
The pilots and airline are lucky the National Security People didn’t think the plane was hijacked; then they might have gotten a noisy wake up from a couple of highly aggressive military pilots. I’m sure the sound of 20mm cannon blasting past them would have got their attention.
@oldwiz: We do warning shots on civilian aircraft now? Some pilots shot an empty school in NJ, and there was hell to pay.
Yet another reason why pilots shouldn’t play WoW or Team Fortress when flying.
@Trai_Dep: Better than playing Katamari Damacy.
Work schedulling software. Sure.
I was once on a flight from Denver to Chicago and the pilot began to attempt a landing at O’Hare (i sure hope that’s what he was doing . . . i could see people on the ground we were so low) and then must have put the laptop down and realized our flight was supposed to land at Midway. He hit the thrust and went back up and circled around and we landed at Midway without incident. Freaked me out.
Perhaps this is kind of attention to the task at hand we can expect when airlines pay their pilots just $20,000 a year. Yikes…
@jpdanzig: They’re flying for the majors. They get paid considerably more than $20k per year.
They actually got their licenses revoked.
[www.npr.org]
@2 replies by:
I saw that. I must say I feel like it’s a little severe, and I’m not sure that it will be upheld if/when the pilots appeal. For a careless/reckless charge, which is part of what their licenses were revoked for, the FAA must show that there was actual danger caused by the pilot’s actions. I’m not sure they can prove that here.
Anyone who’s piloting a plane, driving a train, bus, tractor trailer, cruise ship…whatever….NO computers, blackberries, iPhones, Wiis, Etch-a-sketchs, TV’s, or porn magazines in the cabin/cab. You’re being paid to get people/cargo from point A to point B without killing anyone. Pay attention to your damned job.
I guess there could be reasons to have a laptop in the cockpit…but if they’d only had one laptop out, at least one guy would be disengaged enough to notice the time.
They are lucky they did not run out of fuel. I thought fuel weight was calculated on a leg by leg basis.
@frodolives35:
They don’t cut it anywhere near that close.