How much you want to bet that that sales tax increase:
1. drives shoppers elsewhere
2. doesn't go to fund libraries and essential services, but instead goes down some other black hole of malfeasance

I'm not terribly fired up about the sales tax increase. Yes, our income taxes are stupid high and our sales tax is about to be even higher, but our property taxes are crazy low.

It seems more fair than higher property tax - spreads it around to all residents using public services rather than just property owners.

@friendlynerd: Unless I'm misreading, it's not an across-the-board increase.

@Vandelay Import Export: Well, it must go to libraries in a roundabout way since without that money in the budget we couldn't have them (or a bunch of other stuff).

Shoppers already go to Delaware to shop and have for years.

I think most people knew it was just a b.s. scare tactic on Mayor Nutter's part.

I never go to the public library any more. I can only stand being eyeball-raped by a dozen homeless people slouched over desks and stinking up the aisles so many times before Waldenbooks starts to look good.

@Radi0logy: Is this Philadelphia libraries or your experience with libraries as a whole? My local libraries are filled with students studying and being tutored and kids with their parents. I definitely have never seen a homeless person at a library, unless they've set up a tent city inside the area no one goes to - audio books.

It's worth it. Public libraries are on our nations best innovations.

There is better information for Philadelphia residents here: [www.philly.com]

For one, the sales tax increase applies ONLY in Philadelphia. It is NOT statewide. It is an additional 1 cent, making Philadelphia's sales tax 8 percent instead of 7 (with the rest of the state at 6). However, it hasn't gone into effect yet. The tax increase is supposed to be temporary, but we all know how that goes (Spanish-American war phone tax, anyone?).

@friendlynerd: Except for lower-income residences, sales taxes are argued to be regressive taxes. Low-income residents pay a disproportionate amount of their income on sales tax as do their wealthier counterparts.

@Belabras ate my dingo!: +1
Absolutely agree. And come on, complainers. Libraries are one of the best consumer tools ever. Especially for frugal folks during a recession -- I know plenty of college friends who chose to "rent" movies from the library rather than spend at Blockbuster.

Besides, saving 3,000 jobs by itself is undoubtedly worth the likely quarter of a cent or whatever you'll have to pay in sales tax. NOT TO MENTION the amazing value of a library to the public.

@pecan 3.14159265: This is my experience with Marietta, GA public libraries. But they have pretty much permanently colored my perceptions of libraries as a whole

@Radi0logy: I wouldn't get your hopes up about Philly libraries then. Never been to one, but I know the bums would probably like them.

@Radi0logy:

In Brooklyn, all I get is screaming kids running wild while a lowly NYPD officer attempts to quiet them down and make them discard their food and drinks. I grew up understanding that the two main rules of the library were "be quiet" and "no food or drink."

@pecan 3.14159265: It's a pretty common complaint with libraries, especially in urban areas.

I stopped *lingering* in libraries during college, after TWO incidents where jerkers either followed me or sat across from me while I was studying in my college library.

In NYC, I've been cornered while two homeless guys rose to fisticuffs during a debate about the existence of god, and they were between me and any escape route. Fortunately, NYC libraries have more/better security than did my college library.

It's sad. Homeless people deserve access to public resources, but there's so much mental illness in the homeless population that it can be really frightening to get caught up in/near displays of that.

they closed our libraries every monday. went up on the out of town library card fee from $25 to $50/year. nashville btw.

@thesadtomato: Nutter? That is brilliant.

Yay, fiscal responsibility. You want services, ya gotta pay for 'em.

I recall when Schwartzenegger came in, he promised to "go over the state budget with a fine toothed comb" to save "billions of waste". And he did! When he was popular and basking in his "mandate", even. Had an army of people do so.

And... Ta DAH! - they ended up shaving around $10m from the budget. It turns out that "billions of waste" is a chimera, since someone's "waste" is someone else's "vital".

And this was a guy who put people in who really wanted to slash waste, had a HUGE budget targeted, who was popular and who ran Sacramento. And: zilch.

It still amazes me when pols trot out this canard and the rubes believe it. The waste in any large organization gets pretty awesome the larger it is, private or public. It's structural, it's endemic and if you don't like it, abolish large companies (good luck!) and gov't entities (ditto!). Else, suck it up and stop wasting time chasing down rounding errors.

@kateblack: Hm, I had no idea. Now that I live in a much, much more urban area, I'll have to see what all the fuss is about and go look to the other branches - maybe they have the problems that my local library in my old neighborhood didn't have.

@ribex: Well that seems brilliant, as it will just drive people not to buy things there.

@Trai_Dep: Why not just fire all the non-essential government employees?
If they are non-essential why do they even have jobs?

@kateblack: "It's sad. Homeless people deserve access to public resources"

I'm not really sure I agree with this, at least as it pertains to the library. "but their tax dollars pay for... er oh wait nevermind.."

@kateblack: At least they were debating the existence of god, that lends them some credibility and makes them more of a a "philosophe" than a "homeless guy."

@Vandelay Import Export:

Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

@Radi0logy: i browese the library catalog online, request my books, wait until the online system verifies they are on the shelf waiting for me, pop in just before they close on my way home from work and grab my books off the hold shelf, self checkout and i'm outta there. under 5 minutes, no sitting down or talking to anyone.
not because i've had bad library experiences, but because the tiny branch i go usually doesn't have what i want to read anyway so i have it sent there, and because i really am there at about 8:50pm and they close at 9. there's no time to loiter

@thesadtomato:

So it's a regressive tax, then.

@Radi0logy: For the record, the Philly library system is HUGE. There's ones in the less-then-savory parts of the city, all the way out to the very edge of the suburbs. Your experiences will vary greatly.
I used to go to the Andorra branch somewhat frequently, pretty nice place.

@Radi0logy: Well, the bigger picture is that the fact that they're homeless means that there are taxpayer-funded programs in place to help them - your tax dollars going toward libraries which may or may not be useful to homeless people is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money given to publicly-funded shelter programs, soup kitchens, etc.

I'm not saying the homeless shouldn't educate themselves any way they are able, but there is more taxpayer money spent on services which only serve the homeless.

@catastrophegirl: See, I do this now, but I also love to browse. Not having homeless people around me tends to help.

@pecan 3.14159265:

The homeless are one of the biggest, most persistent issues in public libraries. It isn't just big cities, it's just about everywhere. The public library is often the only public space that is indoors (out of the weather), safe (yes, even the SCAAARY homeless are concerned for their own safety), and free, where you aren't going to get rousted for loitering. That it also gives people something to do is a bonus.

Different library systems have different ways of handling them. Some set policies (limits on bags that can be brought in, "no bedrolls," requiring a library card...and thus and address...to use computers) which implicitly make it more difficult for the homeless to use some services or even coming into the library. Some explicitly have a "live and let live" policy. (My home town's main library had signs at the entrance telling patrons not to bother other patrons about their hygiene...that wasn't ONLY for the homeless, as many homes there don't have running water.) Some take a more active approach, coordinating with service agencies for the homeless, and employing some of the homeless/formerly homeless to sort of police their own.

Yeah, homelessness is a big issue for public libraries.

@TechnoDestructo: general sales tax is always regressive.

@friendlynerd: Sadly, in mankind's thousands of years of experience in taxation, we haven't come up with the perfect tax scheme. Still, a sales tax increase is a little more fair, as it spreads the burden around based on how much you use, not how much you make.

@friendlynerd:

Or looked at another way, property owners get a pass while we who live outside the city but work there pay both wage taxes and higher sales tax (lunch is taxable, after all) that go to pay for services we mostly never use. We pay the taxes, but we can't vote. Wasn't there a revolution about that a coupla centuries ago?

@ribex: I live near Laguna Beach, and the town there implemented a sales tax increase to pay for a public project (I forget what it was). A year later, they had raised the funds, and then they got rid of the tax increase. I was shocked.

@Elcheecho:
And regressive is usually code for "let the homeowners deal with it like everything else."

@friendlynerd: All residents pay for increased property taxes. If the property tax on your apartment goes up, the landlord raises the rent to make up for it.

@Radi0logy: Public resoures are just that, public. They are not "taxpayer-club" resources.

@friendlynerd: Non-home-owning city dwellers in Philly do plenty to help: it's called a 4% wage tax.

@Vandelay Import Export: You can't make this stuff up.

@sirwired: Or, to clarify, using the facility on-site is a public resource, but usually there are additional limitations on circulation and other services.

@ultimatecardsfan: Hear hear. I was very happy to hear that they are not closing. Libraries are awesome. As a bookworm child, I used to have a fantasy about being locked in the library overnight (with a sack lunch of course, so I wouldn't starve). Sort of like the ten-year-old version of "Time Enough at Last."

@mazzic1083: That's all a philosophy degree qualifies one for -- wanky conversations & poverty.

@sirwired: Seconded.