Yellow Light At The Intersection Of Zipcar And Local Government
It's over between Warren and Zipcar. He's had a lot of little annoyances with their service, but the last straw was when they automatically charged him for a moving violation ticket, plus their own administrative fee, when he had already gone to court and paid the ticket.
He received this e-mail from Zipcar, dated July 28th:
Dear WARREN,
We have been notified of a Moving (red light) violation that occurred during your reservation with Malvern at Leroy St, Jun 27th, 8am to Jun 28th, 8am. The violation was issued by New York, NY, on Jun 27th, 9:25am (violation # xxxxxxxxxx).
To view a copy of the original violation, please sign in to your Zipcar account and use the following link:
http://www.zipcar.com/members/violation-view?m=xxxxxxxxx
As a result of this violation, Zipcar has charged $72.00 to your account. This includes payment of the violation, any late fees, and an additional fee of $20.00, which helps us defray the cost of processing. If you have any questions about the violation, please contact the issuing municipality directly. For additional information about Zipcar penalties and policies, please go to http://www.zipcar.com/help, or access the Member Help Center from the help menu on the reservation screen.
This is all very well and good, except for the minor detail that he had already paid that ticket directly. He wrote back:
I did get a moving violation on Jun 27, although
fortunately it didn't involve any traffic lights. Anyway, I already
paid the full fine ($130) to New Paltz Town Court on Jul 20, so I'm
going to initiate a credit card fraud action against you (Zipcar) to
recover the $72.
Was this unreasonable of Zipcar? Warren thought so. Observant readers will notice that nearly three weeks passed before Warren was able to pay the fine directly to the town, and Zipcar automatically charged his account for a ticket one week after that—one month after the ticket was issued.
If the ticket was $130, where did Zipcar get $52? Do they get some kind of bulk discount?
Lesson learned: Pay traffic or parking fines as quickly as you're able when renting a car.
(Photo: *Brujita*)
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Comments:
3 weeks until paid, then 1 week more until Zipcar notified? Sounds like paperwork crossed. Zipcar may have been notified even before the fine was paid.
Because of this close timing, Warren really should have contacted Zipcar and given them the opportunity to just credit the amount back. At the same time I question why it took 3 weeks to pay the fine.
I also wonder how Zipcar would be handling this if there was a dispute to be made with the authority issuing the fine. Sometimes these fines do get canceled. Sometimes that happens even administratively without a hearing (at least one did for me regarding an error in PA).
@doctor_cos: This may well be a different ticket indeed. Considering the violation (red light) and amount of fine were not the same as the ticket that the OP already paid. Sounds to me like he ran through a red light camera - and didn't notice - on top of other violation. Or at least he should consider that MIGHT be what happened before initiating a chargeback.
I am not a New Yorker, but a quick check on Google Maps shows New Paltz is a town about 81 miles north of Leroy St in New York City (in the Manhattan area I believe).
Does NY have red light cameras? If so, that is my guess as to what Zipcar is charging him for, since the notifications for those violations go to the registered owner of the vehicle, not the driver.
Did the original poster actually go to
[www.zipcar.com]
and look at the ticket and see what it was for?
These are obviously two separate tickets. The one the OP paid was in New Paltz, the one he is being charged for is in New York City. He says matter off factly that the ticket DID NOT INVOLVE A RED LIGHT. I am guessing the one he DID get from a police officer did not involve a red light, and the one he was charged for was an automated ticket he received fro running the red light. If he was renting the car at the time the photo ticket was taken, he is responsible per the terms and conditions.
The fact that he initiated a fraud action before doing ay sort of research on the matter tells me he is as irresponsible and hot headed in his life and drives in much the same way.
@lgerstel: This was my thought, as well. This doesn't sound like the same ticket, and red light violations these days are rarely handed out on the spot, they're mostly done by camera and mailed later -- you don't know you were caught until you get the ticket in the mail.
A simple check of the violation number (which he has on his ticket and the Zipcar letter) will tell if these are separate tickets or not. This could also be a red light camera ticket that OP didn't even know he got.
@gaywolverine: Two tickets. I don't think nyc pd jurisdiction extends to poughkeepsie; could be wrong but doubt it.
I also wonder if the mention of red light in the letter is a coding error and this is just an additional penalty from zipcar on top of the city fine?
If it was an automated violation, ZipCar would be the one receiving the ticket in the mail first. And it's definitely possible not to know that you got a red light ticket since not all cameras flash during the day. So I say the OP is a bit self-righteous there; maybe ZipCar members and ZipCar are better off without him :-P
@lgerstel: It really depends, I know they have them in queens for red lights AND radar speed traps but I honestly can't recall seeing them in the city though they're probably there in touristy areas.
Like everyone else is saying, I doubt Zipcar's at fault here. Anyway, I've had nothing but good experiences with them. They even lowered hourly rates in my area recently by ~20%, and they keep adding fun cars.
Considering that New Paltz is at least 1 Hour and 36 Minutes from Leroy Street (per Google Maps) and he got his ticket only 1 hour and 25 minutes after the start of the reservation, it is unlikely to be the same ticket he already paid.
Downtown Manhattan has lots of red light cameras. He probably got caught by one.
That being said, as a longtime Zipcar member, I can attest to their lousy customer service, though they are likely innocent in this case.
Two tickets in one day? Dude, please stay off the road. Coming into Upstate, NY acting all superior like, too cool and urban to follow simple traffic rules.s
If it IS a separate violation, wouldn't it make sense for Zipcar to include all the information about said violation in the letter they sent?
Warren is a bit hasty with the chargebacks. He paid a ticket he got in New Paltz, which is an hour and a half out of NYC. ZipCar charged him for a ticket in New York City. Two completely different tickets in two completely different jurisdictions.
Did the OP even both to look at the info ZipCar sent? He immediately decides to cry "Fraud and write Consumerist. ZipCar is better off without him.
I'm not familiar with the area these incidents (whether related or not) occurred in. After all the related articles on red light cameras, the registered owner of the vehicle is notified when a red light is driven through and the associated camera records the violation. The driver isn't ticketed on the spot.
So, it would make sense that, in 3-4 weeks after the fact, Zipcar would contact the driver of the vehicle registered under Zipcar to alert them that a citation / ticket was issued for a moving violation. Then, which I'm sure is part of the ToS, an automated debit was issued against his credit card on file.
(All the more reason to have a credit card, not a debit card, associated with anyone that has access to your billing information)
Now if the "violation numbers" matched, or even just looked similar, I could see where the mistake was made and the driver / OP felt reason to initiate a charge-back.
Yeah, no sympathy for Warren. Don't run a red light and you won't get a ticket.
I agree that it's probably a different ticket. The OP was premature in his response and should've accounted for the fact that he may have received another ticket.
That being said, I really dislike all these traffic cameras going up. Though I haven't (and probably won't) ever received a ticket from one of them, it takes out the ability to plead your case with a human being. I think they're more for revenue generation than any type of traffic safety.
Boy, if there was ever a Consumerist article where we need to hear a followup from OP.
@doctor_cos: Could this be some kind of zipcar fee for someone perceived to be a more dangerous driver? To cover an increase in their risk, like how your insurance goes up if you get a ticket?
@K-Bo: Still though, isn't it pretty rare to get two violations on the same day? (op confirmed he had a violation on the 27th of Jun)
will add some love for zipcar here. even if it were the same ticket, which it doesn't seem to be, it seems feasible that it could take a massive organization (the government) a while to notify a somewhat less massive organization (zipcar) of a ticket, and a while for that second organization to notify warren. and i doubt the government would tell zipcar that the ticket had already been paid. chill out and just resolve it with zipcar.
i went over my zipcar reservation time last night, which caused me to be locked out of the car. a very nice representative was super patient with me on the phone, helped me get back in the car and return it to the lot, and waived the late fee.
one thing i WISH zipcar would do (that would probably be a logistical nightmare, which is probably why they don't do it) is allow one-way rentals, or let other people use a car during your reservation time. sometimes i just need to get from one place to another, and bringing the car BACK is super inconvenient (like last night). or, if i'm taking a day trip to the beach, why not let someone else use my zipcar to run around town while i'm relaxing in the waves? i hope they add such a feature eventually...
p.s. can someone help zipcar come up with more adorable names for their cars? malvern isn't quite doing it for me...
Is it okay to blame the OP if it's absolutely the OP's fault?
@mermaidshoes: I have wanted that for years, myself! I would think they could maybe take five or ten percent of their cars and label them as "vagabond vehicles" which can live at any Zipcar garage. The keyless entry system must have some sort of communications with the Zipcar Central, and building GPS into it should be pretty cheap.
That, and lower weekend rate would be great!
The OP indicated that he had already paid the fine directly to the Town of New Platz. If he was driving in a ZipCar, and it was infact a Red Light Camera as Zip Car said it was, how did the OP know that he received a ticket because Red light cameras go to the address associated with the license plate, not to an unknown driver (to the town) who happened to be driving a rental vehicle.
Seems like the OP had 2 moving violations in the same day, one from a red light camera, and the other from a police officer. Only copies of both of the tickets will convince me otherwise.
"It's over between Warren and Zipcar. He's had a lot of little annoyances with their service..."
What were they? I hear people love Zipcar.
@nstonep: Ok let me make this simple for your denseness. The guy gets a ticket in New Paltz (the ticket he decides to pay). He then takes the car and drives into the city. he runs a red light. The camera snaps the picture and the ticket is sent. The jurisdiction extends to WHERE THE VIOLATION took place. If he wants to say, I was never in NYC, and that was not me, and go fight that ticket that is a completely different issue, but the city DOES have jurisdiction over any car that is caught running red lights.
Bad consumer! It could obviously be another violation, try to get the matter resolved before screaming fraud. I doubt Zipcar is actually involved in a nefarious scheme to steal your money. When you make fake allegations of fraud, you make it harder on people with real claims to be taken seriously. Bad consumer!
@dragonfire81: Not really. If he sped up to make the light (and didn't), the traffic cam might have easily caught that, but the cop down the road is who caught the speeding.
Bad luck on the OP's part? Sure. We don't know what the ticket he DID get was for, but in these parts, $130 sounds like a speeding ticket. If he was in a hurry that day, it's no unreasonable to think the possibility exists that he ran a light at a different time the same day.
If he did get traffic cam ticketed, it would be Zipcar that got that ticket in the mail, not the OP.
On the other hand, if the cop wrote the OP a ticket directly, Zipcar wouldn't have any idea he ever got it, because all information about it would go to the OP.
@jbviau: How curious. They refused to lower my rates even though I've been a member for over two years, it is a non-profit account and I told them about the rates I'm getting from Mint and Connect by Hertz.
How did you get them to lower your rate?
Note: They did give me a diving credit equal to my renewal fee.
@squikysquiken: I agree. If this guy is getting so many moving violations in 1 day that he can't keep track of them, maybe we're all better off if he walked.
@twophrasebark: The problem with Zipcar, in my experience is the following:
Their customer service reps know nothing about their Z2B (Zip to Business) plan. A call yields little more than frustration, and an email take a few days to get a response.
Their cars are slowly falling apart. Not mechanically unsound, just missing knobs, odd rattles and latches that don't quite latch properly. And about 70% of the time there is not a drop of wiper fluid, which leads me to the next issue.
Zipsters are irresponsible pigs who leave the cars a mess. Old wrappers, sticky goo and a radio set to 11 are fairly typical these days.
Their weekend prices are way, way too high, especially in the low season (Winter) when you can routinely get a car for $50 for the entire weekend via Hotwire or Priceline.
Finally, they do not seem to be making any moves to fend of the competition from Mint and Hertz. 85% of my business now goes to Mint and Connect by Hertz. They care not one whit that Mint is only $5 and hour during the week (M-Th), or that I can get a convertible from Hertz during the week for $65/day. "Promotional rates" Zipcar calls them. Yea, well...so what? For now, they are cheaper!
@Daniel Beahn: $130 for a speeding ticket?! What part of the US do you live in? In California, they start at about $175. There are signs for red light violations stating that they are $350. Then again, this is California, and this state is broke.
@Skaperen: Sounds like different violations. Red light violations that are caught by traffic cams often take a little while to catch up to you. See the discussion above...I'm pretty convinced that this is a separate violation.
@Rachacha: Maybe zipcar notified the agency that it was a rental vehicle and that the OP was responsible for running the light. I'm sure they would be allowed to release those driving records to the proper authorities in regards to tickets? I can't see Zipcar being OK with paying a fine for their customers.
@Verucalise-WelcomeBethany: At least in the DC area (and most others I am pretty sure), Red light and speed camera tickets always go to the registered owner of a vehicle. It is up to the owner, whether a rental company or you (even if you loaned it to a friend) to pay the ticket. Then the rental comapny can go get the money back from whoever was driving at the time or you can try and collect from your friend.
Since they can not prove, YET, who was driving the vehicle, the owner is responsible for paying the fine. This is also why they do not charge moving violation points for these infractions.
Since Zipcar is the owner of the car, they are responsible for the fine. Their terms of service I am sure allow them to collect any fines incurred by the renter of the vehicle.
Ok, since there's a lot of talk over jurisdiction and all that, here's the deal:
-New Paltz is a small town about 1.5 hours north of NYC.
-NYC is the only city in New York State that can have red light cameras by state law (it's based on the population of a city).
-The police forces are different. New Paltz could be local or state and NYC has the NYPD (Yes, state troopers have jurisdiction in NYC but they let the NYPD do its thing).
-A red light ticket in NYC is $50 (I've gotten one before) but it's also not a moving violation because they do not take a picture of the driver - only the vehicle. I'm not sure where zipcar gets $50+$20=$72. Oh, late fee for a red light ticket is $25.
Based on all this, if the red light ticket is his, all of the people who said it looks like he got 2 tickets that day would be correct. It's always possible that someone else had the zipcar earlier in the day and zipcar didn't bother to check the time the ticket was issued and it was actually someone else's.
@nstonep: I just checked Google Maps street view and there was only one red light on Leroy and there was no red light camera at the intersection.
@Verucalise-WelcomeBethany: They have cars up by you? I'm surprised you didn't have people with pitchforks trying to burn the magic soul stealing devices the camera crew had.
@gaywolverine: After doing some research you may be right. The OP didn't rent the car in New Paltz. There are no Zipcar locations there. If you read the email he picked the car up on Leroy St and he must have driven to New Paltz. Additionally, the cost of red light tickets are $50 so the cost seems to add up. He could have run a red light on his way to one of the tunnels he would have taken.
@LupusGray: Walking's great in the city, but there's a perfectly lovely MetroNorth train that runs between NYC and Poughkeepsie. The rail is right along the Hudson River. $13 each way.
Even if I had a car, I'd rather take the Hudson Line.
Maybe this is a different ticket?
Shouldn't you ask them to refund your money before you go the credit card fraud route? Seems like this should be a second (or third) step, not the first.
Dear Sears, your washer and dryer sucked so I left them at your door and am initiating a chargeback.