How long until we can see the list of names?

Rich pricks... pwnt.

You people do realize that all of those account holders will pull all their money out and stick it in another offshore bank if they haven't already done so. UBS can pretty much kiss their business goodbye.

It would be interesting to compare names on this list to lists of campaign contributors at the federal level.

@RogueWarrior:
The IRS will still be able to prosecute them. The violation of the law isn't simply having the money in the swiss accounts, but failing to disclose those accounts to the IRS. The account holders have been committing federal crimes each year when they sign their tax returns without disclosing the swiss accounts. Even if they move all of the money, the IRS can still put them in jail, fine them, seize assets located in the US, etc. Essentially, if the IRS finds out they EVER had an undisclosed swiss account, they will make those people's lives miserable, either through heavy fines (in some cases exceeding the value of the accounts) or by simply putting them in jail.

I disagree with this entirely. While I think it's wrong that these people are evading taxes, I think the US Govt. is overstepping their bounds by coercing the swiss government into turning over this information. I think there needs to be a certain level of respect shown for the Swiss banking secrecy laws (despite the fact they claim this doesn't violate them) and for these people's private dealings with a foreign company.

I'd imagine it will be a list of mostly ex-pats, ie US citizens living in Europe. Though...it's possible and even likely that it will also have people engaged in drug trafficking, prostitution, and child sex slavery (yes...people with ties to these operations are in the US as well). The information should go to the FBI for prosecution.

@Esquire99: It's called long arm jurisdiction. UBS has extensive operations in the United States and therefore US law is binding on them.

@nstonep:
I'm familiar with long arm jurisdiction, though it doesn't directly apply US law to UBS' foreign operations. Long arm jurisdiction simply gives Federal courts the power to bring UBS into court and pass judgment on their actions. The simple fact USB does business in the US makes them subject to US law for their business dealings here. In this case, the transactions/business at issue did not occur in the US and probably wasn't handled directly by UBS' US operations.

However, that's not my main issue. I have a bigger problem with the US coercing the swiss to bend, break or evade their banking laws in order to turn over the names. The lack of respect for international law is just disturbing.

@Esquire99: If UBS really felt that strongly about it, they can always pack their things and go home rather than disclosing their names. We hear free market slaves tell us all the time, that we don't need a credit card, cable, cell phone, internet, bank account, etc. Well, they don't have to have US operations.

@ARP:
That wouldn't fix the problem. The names are being gathered from UBS' swiss operations, not the US ones. Even if UBS didn't have any US operations the govt. would be doing the same thing through the Swiss govt. Further, the names aren't being gathered to prosecute UBS; they are being gathered to go after the US citizens who have the accounts.

Back to the old reliable method of coffee cans full of Kruggerands buried in the backyard and a shotgun under my bed.

They don't agree with tax laws/codes so they're taking part in civil disobedience :-)

@Esquire99:

For the love of god man, please stop your trolling or a least beef it up a bit. I've watched you continue to pull your bullshit and hoped I would not have to call you out after your legal "wisdom" got you schooled chapter & verse, or code as it were, on that other thread. Frankly, I was embarrassed for you. You will have no defense against being called a disingenuous FRAUD by the likes of me until you can at least bring the basic skills of your trade. Stick with stating your personal opinions (and some basic logic & reason please) unless you can bring at least a C-game in applicable law. I cut my teeth on bigger fish than you and I'm just a small fry.

@Esquire99: I must agree just because they are tax evaders here does not obligate the Swiss to ' cooperate ' in the name of U.S. justice.

The IRS can make life miserable for UBS operations I don't care. The US citizens who turn in fully disclosed and honest tax returns could boycott UBS.

But the US is not the policeman of the world nor should the world have to listen. Many countries won't even extradite murderers back to the US so why should they surrender financial records. We'll probably owe the Swiss some really big favors one day.

If you don't like international law you must write your congressional or senate representative to negotiate treaties with other other countries that include the surrender of banking information upon our request.

@dragon:ONE: I'm sorry. I fail to see where you learned from the article of what classified these people as "pricks". That being said, the minimum account balances to open UBS accounts is roughly 50k, which I would venture wouldn't qualify as "rich" per se, but smart investing.

But hey, you're obviously clairvoyant and can judge these people fiscally as well as their demeanor, so who am I to judge? Care to let anyone else know where we stand in your hierarchy?

@wvFrugan:
I wouldn't go so far as to say I got "schooled" in the other thread. He had a different interpretation of the applicable law than I did and took more time than I was willing to in order to explain it.

Further, in this particular instance, please point out where my logic is flawed or my legal assertions are incorrect in this particular case.

@Esquire99:Yeah, it's not so much that it's Switzerland's fault U.S. tax evaders are based there, so much as they're partially responsible for putting themselves in a position to be used as a tax haven to begin with.

Series of choices, and all.. you know how that goes.

Of course, when the government has a gun to a company's head, they can make them do just about anything.

Like participate in the TARP program. Hank Paulson. Look it up.

Anyway, back to the flaming.

@veg-o-matic:
They didn't accidentally put themselves in the position of being a tax haven; it was intentional. But as a sovereign nation that is their right. The US has no business coercing them to force one of their banks to give up names.

@MooseOfReason:
The US government isn't forcing UBS to give up the names. The US government has coerced the Swiss government to force UBS to give up the name.

I wish the US would strengthen the laws on coproations headquartering or incorporating in forgien countries to avoid taxes here.

I also saw a thing where I think it was Goldman Sachs that paid 1% in taxes last year. wtf ???

@u1itn0w2day:
One reason companies headquarter/incorporate outside of the US is to avoid double taxation on foreign income, not to avoid taxes on US income.

Goldman Sachs is incorporated in Delaware and paid such a low tax rate in 2008 in part because of where their income was earned, not where the company is headquartered/incorporated.

I think it's great that these assholes who make enough money to buy a small country are finally going to have to pay their dues. Personally, I think it's pretty tacky of any country/corporation/business/whatever to knowingly aid criminals and harbor them from the laws of the person's country of origin. (Unless the laws are grossly unfair, like wanting to put someone to death for showing their face in public or something. But, that's another issue entirely.)

There's no way these Swiss banks or the Swiss government weren't aware that a lot of money was being hidden away for the mere purpose of tax evasion. And, since I'm unaware of any bad-blood between the U.S. and Swiss governments, I don't understand why they've allowed it to go on for so long.

@RogueWarrior: Foresnic accountants are going to take off their belts and dish out ass-whippings. Once the IRS has the names all they have to do is extrapolate the data from all of the account-holders' other transactions.

Rich assholes 0, poors +1 (finally).

@Esquire99: Well then I guess you'd be wrong.

@kolacek:
Ah yes, it's all about the class-warfare. The rich v. the poor.

@Esquire99: The extremely wealthy illegally hide cash abroad in order to break tax laws, while cheerfully sucking up the myriad benefits of being Americans, and you accuse Kolacek of class warfare?

@Esquire99: Watch a terrorist bombing the UK try to argue that since he planned, financed and retreated here, we can't touch him.
Good luck with that.
Criminals of vast enough scale find few havens among most nations. I'm surprised you're against this.

@Esquire99: Why doesn't the US have the right to coerce UBS to hand over the names? As you point out, Switzerland is a sovereign nation and is well within their right to tell the US to stuff it.

Except, the Swiss didn't. So too bad for the tax evaders and hooray for the law-abiding American taxpayer.

@nstonep: Americans? Do drugs?!

@metsarethe...: A core part of civil disobedience is the willingness to be imprisoned for your convictions. :)

@Esquire99: You clearly know no accountants of reasonable sophistication.

@Haggie1: I bet Madoff's people wish they thought of that.

The people who hold the money in those accounts are much the people who benefit from tax loopholes enacted in the previous two pResidential terms. According to some US government estimates, over $100 billion in tax revenues are lost annually due to legal loopholes, never mind illegal tax avoidance. Including compound interest that's around a trillion dollars lost since the year 2000, enough to eat a large chunk of the $11 trillion national debt.

@Trai_Dep: It's good to see some people are educated, not wilfully ignorant like Esquire99.

[www.nytimes.com]

[www.treas.gov]

[www.billshrink.com]

It's bad enough that the bastards who "set up offshore" cease to pay income tax, but worse still is the fact that they benefit from government resources - police, fire departments, medical, infrastructure, etc. - without paying a dime towards them.

Such corporations are not only failing to contribute, they're a leech on the government coffers and cost actual taxpayers even more money.

@Quatre707: And where are the 46000 OTHER names that we wanted?

@Haggie1: My 401k would be worth more if you'd made that suggestion 2 years ago. Even with the shotgun expense.

@kolacek:

How do the poor people get a +1? Do they get the money from the rich people's account? Will their taxes go down (if we're talking about the truly poor, they aren't paying any taxes to begin with). Government services won't increase since Congress doesn't equate providing services with having the money to pay for it, to the lack of tax revenue wasn't lowering social services.

@nstonep:

Ex-pats still have to file a tax return if they make money. The United States taxes an individuals world-wide income, not just US based. There are tax benefits available that reduce the tax liability on foreign income, but it still must be disclosed.

It's cute how you guys think that a multinational bank throwing a few of its modestly wealthy customers to the wolves. is "sticking it to the man". To UBS, it's simply the cost of doing business. "You and us...UBS"...and if that doesn't work...Us.

@P_Smith:

How do you figure $1 trillion - that's a 25% annual increase?

@Esquire99: If these people didn't purposely try to evade taxes like they do then the US Govt. would have no reason to go after them in the first place. There are certain rules in place when it comes to private dealings with foreign companies. The problem isn't that the government is trying to police those rules. The problem is that people are breaking them.

@Esquire99: The Swiss have a provision in their secrecy laws that allows the disclosure of banking information in cases of fraud. The rationale that they are giving to allow the information to be released is due to them reinterpreting what counts as fraud. Massive evasion of taxes is now considered a fraudulent activity and therefore no laws are being broken by the release of the names.

The U.S. originally requested names and accounts for all American account holders. Instead they have now submitted evidence which demonstrates sufficient evidence to suspect fraud and now need the bank data to further the case and prosecute.

@wrjohnston19283: Exactly right. The only people to win here are the government lawyers who are finding work for themselves to justify their jobs. The rich lose, the poor still lose, and the middle class continues to lose as usual.

@P_Smith: You lost me at "according to some US government estimates", as that would be a group with a clear bias to overinflate lost revenue.

@P_Smith: 1 trillion is nothing. How much are we spending on the great Iraq adventure, or maintaining a useless standing army, or developing new weapons just to deliver them to the scarp yard, or on gifts to banking morons? And of course we spend 1/2 trillion/ year on interest payments on the existing debt anyway

@Esquire99:

If these people have enough money to open swiss accounts, they have enough money to leave the US (if they haven't already done so) to a country without extradition treaties. Along with their money.

Net result: IRS spends a lot of money on skip tracers to find out they're SOL, your taxes go up, US GDP goes down, UBS goes out of business, taxes in Switzerland go up.

Good job UBS. You just made it cost more to live where you are, and you just cost Americans money.

Luckily, I live in Canada, so I won't be paying for any of this stupidity, but something this stupid can and will happen in this country, someday.

@Esquire99: The US isn't the only government pushing the Swiss on their banking secrecy and on allowing foreign nationals to evade their home country taxes.

Moreover, there are treaties in operation here that may oblige the Swiss to cooperate if they don't want to be in violation of those treaties.

It's become a big enough international issue that some countries have threatened to rescind trade treaties, etc., with the Swiss government, or to throw Swiss banks out of their countries.