almost sounds more like a diploma mill (places that give you credit for "life experience").

Which also begs the question, if you go to a known diploma mill don't a lot of employers just discount it? I had someone apply saying they were in the process of getting their PhD at Fairfax university, a well known diploma mill. Make's me question their integrity.

I thought that Thompson's lawsuit was about the school failing to deliver on promises that their graduate job placement office would help her find a job. I went to a voc-tech at one time and the job placement assistance was part of the contract I signed. If they offer them as an enticement to enroll and then don't offer the services (or only offer them lip service) then I can see why someone would want to sue.

This, boys and girls, is why you research schools before deciding where to go.

When I was choosing colleges, it took me nearly a year and a half of research to figure it out......and even then, I wound up transfering!

I wouldn't expect a very good education from a private college that only charges $6000 per semester.

I read that Slate piece a few days ago, and it really is excellent.

The accreditation system in this country has gone to hell in the last few years. Although I'm not sure I totally side with the suin' student, I am glad at least some questions are being raised (however briefly) about how schools sell themselves.

If only places like Monroe and the online frauds would just go away...

@veg-o-matic: My rule is simple: If the institution you are considering advertises on TV, you probably don't want to go there.

@Veeber: That actually doesn't beg the question; begging the question is a logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in the premises (for example: Food is good. Fred likes food. Ergo, Fred is good.). It's similar to a circular argument. I'm not trying to be one of those internet jerks that acts smarter than everyone else, but the more people abuse the phrase, the power and meaning it has.

Their logo looks like they took the Monroe Shocks logo and just changed it a little bit.

@Cant_stop_the_rock: The more money you spend the better the education!!!!

/s

@codasco704: Then thats something wrong with your process :P

I worked at a 'school' after graduating college. I needed to earn and grow my resume. I was originally hired to teach OS and hardware classes. I ended up running 2 departments and maintaining the systems alone. It was a frustrating and illuminating experience. These 'career schools' are ripoffs and should be outlawed. Sure some people have good luck after going to one but look at the amount of people that not only now have a large debt to pay back - they have nothing to show for it.

Funny thing: I left and my name was still listed in the programs as my qualifications met the requirements but the current employees did not.

Anyone signing up for a college should ask a lot of questions. How stable is the school? If I graduate will I be able to reach my teachers ever again? Where is the school listed in the regional listings? Is it accepted as a college ANYWHERE? What happens if god grants me intelligence and I try to transfer to another school? (ie do any courses transfer to a REAL school)... What are my chances getting employment with a degree from the school vs just walking in with a high school diploma. Why are the books 3-5 years out of date? Why is the school running 8 year old equipment? What is the schools responsibility to me as a student?

Sadly enough I just ran into an old student of mine last night and she told me how disappointed she was that her 'degree' was useless. I told her that if she needed help contact me BUT she needed to focus on a direction more entry level as a 14 month program is just not long enough to elevate her over people with 4 year degrees from a major college.

@dragonfire81: The problem is, given the success of ripoffs like UoP, even "credible" institutions are getting into the game.

I taught a term of online courses for a very well-established (if not technically "respectable") state university. And they use their well-established name to push these programs even though the quality of course material is incredibly hit-or-miss.

It's pure profit for them, since instructors get paid so little relative to what they charge students.

@dragonfire81: Or on the radio. Or is located in a strip mall.

This is why I would never trust a for-profit school. What's to stop them from the shady tactics that other for-profit firms do to thicken their margins?

And she still only got a 2.7 GPA?

Trina Thompson picked the school she picked, and she only has herself to blame. Sounds like if she had done a bit of research, she could have saved herself a lot of debt. Sorry, I still can't manage to find any sympathy for her situation.

@fredbiscotti: But if a phrase, as illogical as it may be, is used frequently enough by the populace that it is now commonly accepted and understood, why shouldn't it be used if it conveys the point, unless it is generally considered offensive to do so? e.g. Have your cake and eat it too is illogical and wrong, but is used so commonly that it has been generally accepted.

While I understand the ideal, seems to be a bit of windmill tilting.

@Cant_stop_the_rock: I agree. But private college is over rated unless you go to ivy league or a well known school. As for me, I'm content with my CUNY education at $1600/semester. Some of my professors also taught at NYU, while not ivy league, it's still up there.

How is it the college's fault that she didn't qualify for a better school, or didn't research where she was going?

Like "real" colleges are any better. I still have never found any practical use for about 98% of stuff in the crap classes I was forced to take which seemed to only have the purpose of generating revenue so the professor (who let the grad students who actually teach the class) gets their nice salary while they are off shagging undergrads/getting drunk/at the cabin.

Sadly, "colleges" like these are popping up everywhere, including where I live in the Dallas Fort Worth area, and have bilked several others out of their money for worthless credits that don't transfer and no good hope of finding the high paying jobs that they promise. Don't fall for these scams from these fake colleges that charge thousands of dollars more than real community colleges. Here is a recent story from our local paper interviewing other victims. [www.star-telegram.com]

@AdamBC: Don't kid yourself, all schools in this country are for profit.

@veg-o-matic: There are too many local accrediting bodies. The degree mills can always claim to be accredited -- but by some hardly-known agency with low standards. It's very deceptive.

Preventing the degree mills from using the word "university" or "college" in their names would go a long way toward helping the public sort out the good from the bad.

@Veeber: I'd normally agree with that sentiment, but in this case, there's no other statement that conveys what "begging the question" is, other than begging the question. What people mean to say is "raises the question", a statement that has so much utility we needn't replace it with one the explains a logical fallacy. (Also: having your cake and eating it too isn't an expression used to demonstrate an abstract concept; it's a figure of speech used to illustrate a point).

You may all return to conversating now.

@I Love New Jersey:

Other than earning nearly double the salary of those who didn't attend college, yeah, college is such an awful waste.

[www.census.gov]

I'm sorry you were also burdened with any knowledge that didn't have practical relevance for your day to day life.

@veg-o-matic: Some are like that, but there are also distance programs that are every bit the equal of on-campus--my school has one, and it's nearly 15 years old. It's taught largely by the same professors as the on-campus version, and on-campus students regularly take a distance course (they're encouraged to, in fact) as part of their coursework. It's definitely not a profit-driven program.

So I'd say check out the program, not just the name, but don't reject something as lesser just because it's not on-campus.

@vdragonmpc: It can also be helpful to check with likely employers in your field (or grad schools, if that's the plan) to see if they find the school respectable or not.

Sadly, a lot of schools are like this. I've had several friends attend The Art Institute without doing research and ended up having to start all over because nothing would transfer. The biggest thing is, our whole educational system from elementary through college is a joke and borderline scammy, even from well known schools. The majority would not need a college degree if we didn't place such an emphasis on needing a piece of paper for a job and instead looked at work experience (or offer on the job training).

@Cant_stop_the_rock: $6,000 is $12,000 a year for just tuition. Add in room and board (if they have dorms) activity fees, other fees, books and all that and you are easily at a $20,000 a year school. It also breaks out to $400/credit hour or $1,200 per 3-credit class.

Not cheap.

@LupusGray: I didn't go to college and I make about twice what all my friend who went to college make. Same for another close friend who also never went to college. I'm not even factoring in the loans we don't have to pay back. For the record all my friends are in their late 20's early 30's, so it's not a recent grad issue either.

That being said I'd take a pay cut to go back in time and go to college for the experiences. I do regret missing out on that.

@vdragonmpc: I worked for a "career school," too, and it was the pits. I was hired to go into high school classrooms and give presentations on resume writing, job interviewing skills, and life after high school. My whole purpose was to collect "career survey cards" (sales lead cards) at the end of each class. Those leads were used to call and harass kids every day until they said no or made an appointment with an admissions rep.

The main sales tactic was to pressure kids by saying things like, "It's already April and you have no plans. What are you going to do with yourself?" The programs were totally not worth their cost - one program was a phlebotomyEKG tech program for around $18K. Phlebotomists around here are lucky to start at $9/hour. Why pay $18K when you could take the $500 course at the local community college and get the same skills?

Another tactic they used was showing prospective students packets of info from places like the Department of Labor. We would have packets already prepared with important information highlighted, and we were to only show the highlighted information to prospects. The problem was the highlighted info was about all of the great money and benefits you could get by getting a job in the field, but the non-highlighted info contained information about how you'd need a bachelor's or associate's degree to ever get to that level of pay.

@dragonfire81: They all do, don't you watch NCAA sports?

@LupusGray: Eh in my second hand experience just because a school sucks doesn't mean they are easy. As a matter of fact, I believe to keep the ability to get federal aid they have to have a grade curve. To a certain extent knowing what you are doing can be a big downside. My worst college grades came in classes i knew more than the professor. It makes one disinclined to study requires you to prove that a question was vague( or wrong). Even when you are right and the dean says so you generally only get partial credit. After all ego must be maintained. In a situation with high student/teacher ratio and low pay like many for profit classes I could see it being even worse.

@floraposte: No, that's certainly a good point.

Those programs seem to be fairly separate from the new wave of online stuff that universities have been developing over the past 5-10 years.

I'm talking about the push to get students to "complete your requirements online!" "get ahead in your career online!" from established schools that are in it to make a whole load of $$$$ from the deal, not necessarily to give students a quality educational experience. There was, at least in my department, zero oversight for instructors as far as syllabi, assignments, etc.. So some of us were very difficult, while others just didn't care.

@LupusGray: This seems like one of those schools that advertises midday during Judge Judy with all the ambulance chasers and discount phone companies.

Monroe doesn't charge a lower in-state tuition. According to the cited article, $2300 is the tuition for "nearby [CUNY] Lehman College".

I am applying for a professorship at wherever "I Love New Jersy" went to school

@I Love New Jersey: I dunno, maybe the major you picked was totally useless?

@vdragonmpc: A lot of these for-profit places (even the legit ones) provide basically what a community college does, but at a CC you can go cheap or free and aid is very available. And vibrant CC systems tend to offer nights, weekends, child care, accelerated programs, etc., for non-trad students (who are generally the target audience for legit for-profits).

Locally was have a for-profit place that directly competes with the CC. What the for-profit place offers that the CC doesn't is that they pass everybody. But that'd be why the CC students get into nursing programs and the for-profit students don't. You get your store-boughten Bs, but they don't do you any good.

This is why its better to go to local or state schools. At least they have to prove they're doing something to get state and city funding.

@codasco704, @MostlyHarmless: To be fair, guidance counselors aren't exactly the most helpful people on the world, and parents often are clueless, too. I mean, my parents were art and history majors; they certainly had no idea what was a good school for mathematics and computer science. And my guidance councelor was more interested in bragging about her PhD than giving students any useful advice on picking out schools.

@vdragonmpc: I went to a trade school. But they also did not say they were a college. I went 12 years ago when the job market was strong. I also knew that getting jobs would be all my responsibility. They did help me land my first job, but none since.

Since then, I have developed my own skill set far beyond anything they teach. Now I'm stable and strong enough to still have a job, and will return to a state college for my full degree within the next year, fully reimbursed by my company.

They did do what I wanted. They gave me the CORE...CORE skills needed for my field. I went from there. But I do feel really bad for anyone about to graduate college now. It's a hard market for almost every single field.

@fredbiscotti: I still love how every word that end's in "s" MUST have an apostrophe. Make's me question the educashunal system. Goodnes's!

@fredbiscotti:

As a recovering philosophy major, the misuse of question-begging is one of my pet peeves, too. But I'm going to have to have a second pick at that nit: your example is, while fallacious reasoning, not in fact begging the question/circular reasoning. Actually, it is difficult to categorize (beyond non sequitur, of course) because there appears to be one or more suppressed premises (for example, that which is liked is an indicator of "good-ness") and it doesn't qualify as an entyhymeme. Alternatively, it is the fallacy of ad vericundiam ("appeal to authority") inasmuch as Fred is taken to be a sufficient authority on the quality of goodness, coupled with affirming the consequent (If P then Q; Q: therefore, P. Begging the question is simply: If P, then P; P, therefore P. Of course, in real life they tend to be synonyms, not repitition. Example: the bible is true. How do I know? Because it says it is true. How can I trust it? Because the word of God can't be false... etc. ad infinitum. (really just repeating the same tautological claim.)

@chatterboxwriting: My best friend is currently attending Rasmussen college, despite my best efforts to convince her otherwise. She was attending a local community college, but felt she wasn't getting enough guidance there. So she enrolled at Rasmussen for Medical Assisting - a job that pays around $10-12 an hour - for a total cost of around $23K!!!! If she had stayed at the community college, she would have paid around $6K.
Things were looking good at first, but now that she's almost finished, suddenly her instructors are disappearing, she has to drive to another campus 30 miles away to take classes, no one will help her set up her internship at a clinic...I really want to scream "I told you so!!" but I've managed to keep silent.
The most hilarious thing? She wants to eventually become a RN, so she's going to end up back at the same community college for their RN program. URGH!!!!

@I Love New Jersey: ILNJ: why don't you go to grad school for 5-8 years so you can walk in a prof's shoes? Then you'll know what goes on at "real" schools. Profs are under a lot of pressure to come up with new knowledge and publish it in high-grade journals. And keep publishing while getting decent teaching evaluations so you won't get fired after 5 years.

@fredbiscotti:

@ veeber, Sorry, but fredbiscotti's right. "you can't have you cake and eat it, too" is not illogical and wrong--in fact, it is so obviously true (and frequently analagous to real life situationsd) that it has become a cliche.

@I Love New Jersey: You went to a shitty school. I never had so much as a single lecture that wasn't taught by a full professor with a PhD. My largest class was about 50 people, and most of my classes were around 20 (some were as small as 6 students). I never had a teacher force us to buy their own textbook or try to keep us from getting books as cheaply as possible, and I never took a scantron test. Some colleges and universities offer great educations. You just need to shop around and find the one that's right for you.

And if you're looking for practical skills, go to a technical school. College is an intellectual exercise. I guarantee you'll get way more practical knowledge from a school like Universal Technical Institute than Harvard.

@floraposte:

Very good points. I am enrolled in such a program now through my state university. It just happens to be their online/continuing education/off campus arm. Classes have been on par with anything I took on campus.

@yasth: It's also in your abilities as a student. There's a good chance that she wouldn't have gotten into a real college, and what were her opportunities then? I think she should've gone to the community college as many college professors from other schools take on additional classes at the community college. But it's ultimately about her experience, and how she managed to make something out of it: clearly her 2.7 gpa was reflective of someone who did not make the best of her experience.