Energizer Responds To Weak Rechargeable Battery Claims
Energizer responded to Are Energizer Rechargeable "D" Batteries "AAs" In Disguise? by explaining why D size rechargeable batteries are made the way they are:
I am writing on behalf of Energizer and would just like to provide some answers to the questions posed in the blog.All Energizer NiMH batteries have the mAh capacity rating on the label. There is no deception concerning the battery capacity and the D size designation only represents the batteries physical dimensions. We have found that most D size devices will work satisfactorily with the Energizer NiMH batteries and the rechargeability of the product is the true advantage of this chemistry.
D size rechargeable batteries have historically used a smaller internal unit cell. The main driving force behind this design is to keep the battery affordable to the average consumer. High capacity rechargeable batteries are more expensive than our standard rechargeable D size battery due to the increased volume of materials needed. In addition, they require a higher capacity charger to deliver acceptable recharging times which are also more expensive. Our research indicates that the high upfront cost for high capacity rechargeable batteries and special charger would discourage many users from trying these batteries.
Clearly a high capacity D size NiMH battery would be beneficial in certain applications but we have found that the market for this type of battery is minimal due to overall cost. Energizer will continue to evaluate this market and look for a cost effective opportunity for higher capacity NiMH batteries.
Thanks,
Jeff Bachmann
Thanks Energizer. It should also be noted that while the source of the original material, Mike Adams at his site Natural News, is not incorrect in stating the capacity of his Enegergizer D batteries, the fact that he includes a link to batteries you can buy directly from him in his own post means that you should evaluate his claims as ad copy, not as journalism. In addition, links on his site to his ebooks about beating swine and bird flu through herbal remedies further calls into question his reliability as a credible source. Furthermore, the practice of including smaller batteries in a larger shell is common practice, not a deception. If you open up a lantern battery, for example, you'll find four smaller cells inside.
Battery sizes are really about form-factor these days. Consumers need to go beyond the big letters on the package. Remember to check the label first and see if the the mAh capacity meets your needs, and know that other vendors exist beyond what's in the supermarket checkout aisle. Check out the comments section on the original post for a robust and delightfully wonky discussion about where how and why to buy the best batteries.
PREVIOUSLY: Updated: Are Energizer Rechargeable "D" Batteries "AAs" In Disguise?
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Comments:
Does anyone else have that same PR voice that reads these in your mind? Every time I read a PR-themed document like this I imagine a nice voice reading it in a tone just above a monotone.
Or maybe it's just me.
This only holds true if they sell the D batteries for the same price as AA batteries. Plus if all they are doing is putting a AA into a D case, why not just sell adapters and be open about it? Why hide the fact than D batteries are just a AA in an adapter?
I thought that D batteries were for high powered and/or high drain devices. You don't get the same amount of light out of a AA Maglite as you get out of a D cell one.
I think that a D sized battery cell would easily inflate the prices to well beyond the reach of the average consumer. All normal rechargeable cells are usually sub-AA, C, or in between. I've only seen custom cells that are expensive reach the D cell size range.
Oh, spare me. Why do they bother designing devices for D cells instead of AA cells? Bulkiness is suddenly sexy or something?
@citking: I always read them in a British voice. Not just any old one, but the commaner from the Death Star in Star Wars that says "You may fire when ready" before they blow up Alderaan.
For the future, though, I will try to read them in the voice of Professor Farnsworth. So, PR people, it would help if you started all your responses with "Good news!"
@GMFish: Obviously it's about capacity as well as form factor. Every battery provides 1.5v per cell, but they all hold varying mAh (milliamp hours) worth of juice.
What Energizer is saying is that the up front costs of a D cell ammount of juice is too high for most consumers on the battery itself, and that the up front cost for a charger that charges in an ammount of time most consumers consider "acceptable" is too high as well.
I'm willing to buy that excuse...
@Vandelay Import Export: Correct- and so putting Energizer batteries in your Maglite that you keep for emergencies (or the inevitable zombie attack) is a bad idea.
@Mackinstyle: He didn't say it benefits the consumer, so much as that there is no market for high capacity (high priced) D size NiMH batteries. As it stands, D batteries are a specialty item (used for your portable flood lights, and whatnot), making rechargable D batteries a specialty item among specialty items. And if that's not already paring down the market enough, high capacity rechargable D batteries requiring high capacity cell chargers (all at a higher cost than most people are interested in paying for batteries) provide a whole lot of reason for Energizer to wrap a smaller cell in a larger package.
I would like to have the choice of buying the maximum energy capacity that a give battery size is capable of.
@Mackinstyle: I don't see it as pathetic spin. Most people buy things like batteries based on price not overall quality. Should they create a more expensive battery that no one will buy?
@Vandelay Import Export: That's because there are more volts in a D cell mag light (4 1.5v batteries = 6v) vs a AA mag light (2 1.5v batteries = 3v).
For flashlights, I would prefer standard batteries over rechargeable. All batteries will discharge naturally even if not used but rechargeable cells do it much quicker. You're likely to have a dim flashlight when you actually need it.
@Applekid: i always read it in Farnsworth's voice...
"Good news everybody! the batteries aren't underpowered, you just didn't pay attention!"
I'm not going to take anyone to task but Consumerist on this one.
What's going on folks? Sounds like some sloppy reporting on your part...only in the aftermath of posting the 'story' by Mike Adams does the Consumerist start throwing around caveats, must like Jeff from Energizer...
Write a story. Check the facts. Post it. That's what Consumerist has always been about. C'mon Ben, don't let us down!
@Vandelay Import Export: The difference is because of the bulb. AAs and D cells have identical voltage but different capacities. The reasons they're different are multiple. For one, the AA maglite has a more efficient lamp that's designed to last longer with less battery capacity. Additionally, the common sized d-cell maglite uses 3 cells instead of the 2 that the AA uses, which means it's actually operating at 4.5 volts compared to the 3 volts of the AA, but it's because of the number of cells, not the battery itself. If you hotwired a d-cell mag lite to use 3 AA batteries, it would be exactly as bright as always, it would just run out of juice faster.
"require a higher capacity charger to deliver acceptable recharging times"
Acceptable != Required
"High capacity rechargeable batteries are more expensive than our standard rechargeable D size battery due to the increased volume of materials needed."
Why did the device require D batteries in the first place? BECAUSE THEY WANTED HIGH CAPACITY. This excuse letter is garbage. This is like saying, hey, I know you asked for a V8 in your pick-up truck, but the cost of metal would make the truck more expensive, so we gave you a 4-cylinder and just wrote V8 on the side of the truck. We have found the market for towing and hauling minimal.
Now somebody find out how much more expensive the D's are than the AA's.
Rechargable D: 1500mAh - 2200mAh
Alkaline D: 15000mAh - 18000mAh
Cost difference per 12 pk: about $30
Yeah, thanks Energizer, but I'll stick with the alkalines.
I don't think people have an issue with putting a AA cell in a D battery, I think it's the fact that they put a AA cell in a D battery and then charge twice as much. Energizer's AA rechargables retail for $3 each. Their Ds retail for $5. Given that I can find a AA to D battery converter for a RETAIL price of less than $2, I am lead to believe that they could easily raise the amperage of D cells (which is actually LESS than AAs right now - 2100 mAh compared to 2200 mAh) without significantly raising the cost of the product. It would just decrease the profit. It's a deceptive practice and I don't like it.
I would be totally ok with that explanation if the cost between their AA and their D's were close (Of course adding in 0.50 for the extra plastic involved in the shell, and maybe another .25 for labor involved in putting it all together. But let's face it - if the device manufacturers wanted our equipment to run on AA batteries, they would have designed them that way! You only find D batteries in applications that require a long-lasting battery. I feel bad for all those people who have no idea what a mAh means. They're getting the shaft.
@gStein: I'm definitely reading it in Professor Farnsworth's voice from now on.
I read it in a woman's voice. Not sure why other than the last couple of PR names I read were female names.
@DPGumby: See, that was what the original conspiracy theory was, that Energizer is trying to get the higher-profit alkalines to out-perform the rechargables by pulling shenanigans like this.
@Corporate_guy: Exactly. Eneloop batteries come this way. They sell AA and AAA batteries, and C and D adapters. So they're getting the same effect, but they're being straightforward about it. (And not requiring the customer to buy a bunch of redundant batteries.)
I would prefer to have some higher capacity, real Cs and Ds, but barring that, the adapter is preferable to effectively gluing the batteries into the adapters, which is what it looks like they're doing here.
@ARP:
Keeping RECHARGEABLES in an emergency flashlight is a bad idea, period. Even the very best (eneloop) will still lost about 40% of their capacity just sitting there in a year. Two years and they're practically dead.
A good, fresh alkaline battery, though, will keep a very decent charge for 5 or more years. It certainly won't be 100% in 5 years, but it is be plenty usable, whereas the average NiMh (not eneloop) will be flat in 3 months.
The Sanyo "eneloop" batteries are quite upfront about this; when you buy a kit of 'em, you get AAA and AA sized batteries, with sleeves to turn the AA batteries into C and D shapes. It's actually a pretty good arrangement.
They used to sell plastic shells in a variety of sizes for AA and AAA batteries to it into. I had a few and used them regularly until my wife decided to give away a bunch of stuff to Goodwill without checking to see if the batteries were rechargeable. *sigh* I believe the ones I had were branded by Panasonic.
Plus, if a cop hit you with a maglite that used AA batteries it wouldn't have the same effect as the D sized one.
I actually thought his answer was pretty acceptable. He's more or less saying "We've done the research and concluded there's no way you cheap bastards would be willing to pay a reasonable price for what you're asking." As much as we all hate to admit it, for the majority of the population price is the number one motivating factor. It's actually pretty embarrasing how cheap we are as a socieity. It was just earlier today that the Consumerist posted a story by a reader who was upset that he only got one (not the two that he wanted) free pizza from a pizza place he doesn't even like eating at. The mind boggles both at how entitled he is and at the fact that he didn't get two free pizzas just for showing up is apparently a consumer issue worth reporting.
I'm a big fan of Energizer. I'll tell you why and why Energizer's response won't change that. (I submitted this story to Consumerist but it wasn't picked up.)
We had a AA/AAA Energizer travel charger and a ton of AA NiMH batteries from a variety of brand names including Energizer, Duracell and Rayovac. (The cells were probably all made at the same factories - like a lot of things these days.)
One day the charger just stopped charging. It also damaged two Rayovac AA NiMH cells that were in it when the charger gave up the ghost.
A short, very pleasant call to the Energizer toll free number netted us the following:
-$8 in Energizer coupons to cover the return shipping.
- Within 7 days of sending back the charger AND the two Rayovac batteries we received a brand new charger which included two new AA and two new AAA NiMH cells and another pack of 4 AA NiMH cells.
- A letter of apology.
We didn't have a receipt and the charger was more than a year old. Energizer has a customer for life.
I also want to add that since most NiMH charging systems are for AA and AAA batteries, advanced kits will supply the C and D cell plastic casings so you can put the AAs to use in devices that require those cell sizes (kits like the LaCrosse Tech BC-900.)
Sure you can get 10000mAh NiMH D cell. It should be noted, however, that some of the better chargers accept only AA and AAA. Additionally, at a nominal 200mAh charging rate it would take 50 hours to recharge the thing. Sure you could get a fast charger that could do it in 10 hours (1000mAh charging), or even 5 1/2 hours (1800mAh charging), but the useable life of the batter would suffer dramatically.
@osiris73: You can replace them cheaply from dealextreme.com and I am sure other websites sell them as well.
Gotta love how Consumerist turned on Mike Adams too.. geez.
If a D size battery isn't going to supply more power than a AA, then there's no point in ever using a D size battery. Of course it will cost more, so what?
@Mackinstyle: I don't really see it as spin. It's not like they hide the fact the batteries have next to no juice either.
Basically he's saying they can do it one of two ways.
Either A. produce a small sucky D cell that just uses a AA inside but conveniently is able to be charged in the same charger that does the AAA/AA batteries
Or B. produce "good" batteries that also force the consumer to buy another charger specifically for these large style batteries.
Though to be totally honest, I don't know many people who use NiHMs in their mag lites and stuff in the first place since NiMHs only have a 1.2V output which really adds up when you stick them in devices that use 4+ batteries.
Buy another brand then. Here's the first link I hit on google. Let's see, we're talking $8.25 per battery. So, your ghetto blaster will cost $100 to power with "real" rechargeable D-cells.
If you were to charge all those batteries at once, it would also take only 24 - 48 hours for the average "slow" charger (which would be safe to do), and only 3 or 4 hours in a fast charger (and the batteries would get so hot I expect the charger would actually melt down).
To design a 15 minute charge cycle device to charge up a 10 Ah D cell would require, at absolute perfection, 40 AMPS of current into the battery. The wiring to the battery holder alone would would be 10 AWG... And the heat generated would be so immense I can't imagine what would happen to the battery.
At 0.05 ohms internal resistance, with no heatsink, that's 80 watts heat dissipation per cell. A 4 cell quick-charger would be hot enough to instantly burn you!
Seriously, Energizer is being honest about what they say. You could safely charge a D cell in 24 hours, but consumers have come to expect batteries to be charged in 5 hours, not 24. To safely charge a D cell even in an hour would require some SERIOUS charger design.
@shepd: Actually NiMH, especially at the high mAh end of each cell size, have a much higher self-discharge rate than even NiCd which is, I believe, the figure you're quoting.
5-10% on Day 1
0.5-1% every day thereafter.
So you could loos up to 40% in a month. NiMH is a bad choice for D-Cell devices anyway because between the fast self-discharge and the amount of time it takes to charge them (10000mAh + cells), they're useless for those applications.
@thezone: I would buy more expensive rechargable batteries if they lasted longer per use. As it is, they are insufficient to meet my personal required needs.
Yes, if you open a lantern battery you find four smaller batteries inside - not just one in a bigger casing like you are with the D. Or at least the rechargable D - don't the non rechargables still have two or four inside?
Still feels deceptive.
@DPGumby: So essentially, you would have to charge your rechargables 10 times to equal the life span of a single alkaline? Holy crap. What a waste of money.
@rugman11: Where are you deceived? The mAh rating and voltage rating are right on the side of the box.
@harvey_birdman: I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't need a different charger to charge a D. It just would take a couple hours instead of 15 minutes. No big deal.
@coren: You'll find four cells, wired in series, in a lantern battery because that big battery supplies 6 volts, or 4 x 1.5V
AAA, AA, C and D batteries all supply 1.5V (well, some rechargables only rate at 1.2V, but that's not the point right now).
Oy you people are impossible. I posted almost exactly this statement yesterday. I'm an electrical engineer and I DON'T work for any battery companies. (although I would love a job hint hint) Half of the posters here don't understand concepts such as energy density, depth of discharge, capacities, and C ratings.
I can't even think of an application where a true D cell would be superior outside of a gigantic flashlight. In that case it's only better because you'll have a heavier flashlight to smash face with.
I guess you can lead a fish to water but you can't make it drink.
@shepd: Re-read your comment and I realised I missed something. That's 0/2 on my reading comprehension test today. Sorry.
@jdsmn: How many average consumers know what the mAh rating means? Is this any different than the grocery shrink ray? It's the same concept isn't it?
There are plenty of applications where a D is more useful, portable radio where AA's are only going to run it for a couple hours but a real D's would last all day.
I looked at buying some D rechargeables, around $10 per battery for the real thing.
Eneregizers rechargeables suck anyway, they sell on high capacity and fast charge time, that fast charge time wears them out sooner and they never reach the full capacity. I switched over to the low self discharge a couple years ago and even though the capacity is lower they last longer.
Such poppycock. The D batteries aren't just for their size. They've always been what you fit into big drainers like a portable flood light.
I love the pathetic spin Jeff puts on how it benefits the consumer to sell inferior batteries.