I'm a believer that quality can be seen from the outside at the time of purchase but also has a lot to do with what you do after you purchase it. People tend to buy things, assuming that they won't have to do something to keep it looking not necessarily new, but nice (depending on what the item is). Sometimes you don't have to do anything to certain items and they'll last a long time. But then sometimes you really do have to take an extra step here or an extra step there to really get your money's worth.

I mean, you just expect stuff to work but I dunno - my old man kinda drilled it into me that you may not have the nicEST stuff but you can keep it looking nice and working right if you treat it right.

I hope this book is really expensive. If it isn't, it's probably awful. Or so I've been told.

Sounds interesting. I love these types of books. Another good one is Nickel & Dimed, where an undercover writer bounces from job to job around the US to try and live on the minimum wages that people at the bottom get paid.

I'll wait till the book comes to the local library, then photocopy it.

What?

My experience tells me that you generally get what you pay for - and that places like Wal-Mart and big-box stores are killing quality so you can't get it even if you're willing to pay for it.

That said, you can also reduce price through greater efficiencies in both manufacturing and distribution. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum-game.

Total BS- when I buy Dockers at Ross compared to Dockers at Macy's- the only place the money comes out of is the pockets of the giant corporation. It has nothing to do with "cheap labor, materials procured without regard for the environment, or just the lower quality of the product itself." when it is the exact same product.

@LordofBacon: Or, you know, you could read it, absorb the information contained therein, and then return it to the library. You know, it's worked for me for years!

I try to get the best possible deal. I shop at Walmart a lot (probably 90% of the time). I have no preference/loyalty to any brands I just go for the cheapest price. I surf the net to get the cheapest deal. I absolutely do not care about consequences. I just want to save money TODAY.

Child labor? Sure if it'll save me money!
Without regard for the environment? Oh please!
Made in China? Why not? Everything I own is made there anyway.
Buy American? If you price match I sure will! See I can be patriotic too!

The bottom line is - the price. Don't care about your sad little story about your hungry children, deforestation etc.

I know a lot of people probably don't share my views but that's OK. I never tell anyone where to shop nor do I care.

Heh - like Costco. God, I hate Costco. Everything seems like such a great deal and ooh, look at what fell off the back of the truck this week - but then you start to reflect on the mass net weight gain of our society and how it relates to portion sizes and then you see an overweight family loading up their oversized cart with 50-count pallets of Hot Pockets and Doritos and it should make you sad inside. It makes me sad inside.

@smartmuffin: It is a good book, or at least it will be until it's remaindered and collecting dust in the 75% off bin: then it will be contributing to the downfall of American society ;^)

@stanner: I hate shopping so much that I will pay extra for what I do buy to avoid having to shop again for a very long time. I checked tags inside of the clothing that peaked my curiosity, every tag said made in China. I walked out of that store without purchasing anything and several stores after that.

In order to purchase some decent quality its going to be necessary to travel one and a half hours from home.

@Triterion: But you're still buying Dockers.

Whereas if I go to Old Navy and buy a pair of khakis, for $20 the fabric is pretty much so thin I can read through it. (This was not the case five or ten years ago! After gaining and then losing a substantial amount of weight, I've pulled out my old clothes and bought some new ones, and the comparison is shocking.) And clothes from Target are about the same.

@smartmuffin: You can tell from the cover it's not going to be that great of a read.

Although I agree that the money you saved buying something at a cheaper price is passed on, sometimes people can't HELP it. I'm sure a lot of us wish we could afford things of better quality, but sometimes we just can't. Now some of you would argue, "Save up the money for the better quality merchandise!" Well... that's not always an option, either.

I tend to buy a lot of my things second hand in great condition, versus from the store if I can help it. You can find great deals when you look- slightly used items at a steep discounts that are the quality you are looking for.

I'm sure this book has many valid points, but I believe the message won't stick. Too many people suffering these days to question whether they should spend more money, especially when they don't have any.

@Triterion: The difference with Ross and Macy's is described in Ross' own ads. They buy any clothing that big stores don't want, and they sell it at a discounted rate. Big Lots does the same thing. The only issue with that is that Ross (and Big Lots) may not have the same clothing in 2 weeks after you shop around. This is all at the retail level, of course. The issue behind the book is that when big box stores like Wal*Mart, Super Target, Kmart, etc. all want to have lower retail costs, so they are more likely to go with vendors that have lower quality stuff, import their goods from nations that don't have child labor laws, or build products that so sub-par in quality that you need to replace in 6 months time.

So, in essence, you do end up paying more, but not in physical cash. In the case of the latter instance, then you end up paying more over time, but it doesn't seem like that when you first go in to purchase it.

@smartmuffin: @trustsatan: Costco is great. Great quality meats, fruits and veggies, and I whole lot of other things. They treat their employees well too.

@keepher: Honestly, just because it's manufactured in China doesn't mean it's always total crap. I've had sweaters that were made in China that have lasted 8 years. Sure, a lot of things made in China are of poor quality, but not everything falls under this presumption.

Personally, my time and money are pretty valuable. I can't drive an hour and a half to purchase "decent" quality. My clothes last a pretty damn long time.

@Triterion:
Just be sure to look really close at you Ross loot before you buy it.
One of the reasons clothes wind up there is they carry faulty manufacturing details- poor stitching, low-quality fabric choice put into production, improper seam allowances and ill fit.

That's why the designer tags are defaced, slashed or removed. The quality of designer duds at Ross and other bargain cloting stores is not meant to be indicative of their true quality.

@AgitatedDot:

for a non-dickish view of this:

child labor:(child labor seems to count teenagers also, why? i dont know)instead of begging for food in the street, the child is working. In area's with growing populations and no public education, working in a factory is a better choice. Their only other options may be subsistence farming.

without regard for the environment: Every company follows this to a point. Cheap good are not the exclusive cause.

made in china: Congratulations! You just gave someone in china a job! Instead of rice farming, animal husbandry, or any other rural task, they now have a choice for their lives.

Buy American: Economic protectionism leads to trade wars and disrupted foreign relations. Countries who heavily trade with each other never go to war. Instead of aggressively acquiring goods and materials, we just buy them.

@trustsatan: Well, I think the opening up of bulk stores to everyday consumers causes the issues that you are talking about. I honestly think that small families (with 2-3 people living in a household) should not purchase from big box stores because they will waste more money there than at the store and not consume as much. I see patrons of Costco or Sams Club benefiting from shopping there if they are either a business, a collective that pools the money and rations off from the bulk what they paid for, or families that have more than 5 people in it. Only then will Costco see more of a better idea.

This is my rule as a consumer: no matter how cheap something is, it is always more expensive than buying nothing at all.

@stanner: I want to buy things that are not going to fall apart. I would rather buy fewer things that last longer. The problem is that the bar has been repeatedly lowered so many times that finding things that are not crap is harder and harder. Even if you go into supposedly better stores some products might look nicer but are still crap in the materials and construction.

It has become bad enough that I end up buying things at some odd places in order to find items that won't break or wear out after a few weeks.

@trustsatan: Why? Of what consequence is it to you that two people buy things in bulk? Mr. Pi and I buy chicken in bulk and freeze it. It's a lot cheaper than buying it from the store every week because we save gas. And we buy bananas in bulk because we eat a lot of fruit. During Thanksgiving, I buy apples and pears in bulk so I can make pies for family. How is it wasting money if we are precisely eating what we buy?

@trustsatan: Your issue is with overconsumption, not Costco. These people who are loading up on Hot Pockets - if it wasn't at Costco, you bet they'd be at their local store doing the same thing. Unhealthy people will be unhealthy regardless of where they are.

I see some posters here are confusing cheap with inexpensive. The title of the book is Cheap. Cheap quality often costs more in the long run than good quality. Price does not necessarily correlate to quality levels.

I am reminded of a statement I heard years ago: The average American and the average Italian both have about $1000 in shoes in their closets. The American has 50 pairs of $20 shoes and the Italian has 4 pair of $250 shoes. Americans throw their shoes away when they are dirty or slightly worn while the Italian takes their shoes to the cobbler.

We are trained to be consumers by very sophisticated marketing and sales industries to buy and buy and buy. We can learn to train ourselves not to salivate when some retailer rings the bell, not to "need" the newest and shiniest bauble to dangle from some part of our body, not to feel less than someone else because of the label sewn into the pocket of our jeans or the sleeve or our shirt.

We need to learn to recognize quality at whatever price we see on the tag and learn to be good stewards of the resources we consume.

@downwithmonstercable: Nothing hard about that, until you have a wife and 3 kids of course.

@Necrosynth: Another problem is that spending more doesn't guarantee that you're operating out of the exploitative system. Even when you get into luxury goods, there's some reasonable evidence that the same factory systems are producing most of them.

I do think that we in the West got what we wanted by ignoring the price that people on the other side of the world paid for it, and that we're still astonishingly indifferent to that. (The rug market is probably the most egregious example, and it just doesn't get that much attention.) But now that various economic systems are predicated on this kind of labor, it's tough to undo that in ways that don't destroy lives further. As witness the great U.S. boycott of Thai clothing manufacture because of child labor, which ended up driving the children into prostitution. Go us.

@Verucalise-WelcomeBethany: Indeed, it's a lot easier to preach about avoiding Wal-Mart when you have the money to purchase socially and environmentally responsible products, plus access to stores that sell such products. Not everyone has those luxuries and they shouldn't be made to feel guilty or irresponsible for it.

@Verucalise-WelcomeBethany: I actually agree that purchasing used (as long as the used hasn't been damaged to the point of non-usage) is a very good idea. Even for electronics. The issue the book is making is that purchasing something cheaper at first usually has a degraded quality that will only last for a few months at most, then will need to be replaced. Thus, this is where the true cost of cheap comes in to play.

For example: you buy a $20 mp3 player from a big box store instead of a higher quality name brand player (est. cost $150 bucks). Lets say that the 20$ player breaks in 2 months, and you replace it with another one. This continues to happen for the course of a year. You are now out $120 for 6 mp3 players that causes waste as well as frustration and heart ache, and that is just for one year. Whereas, the $150 player lasts you 3 years and has no issues. The better value is in the $150 player. You can also buy the mp3 player used as well, but you run the risk of the previous owner not taking care of it or flaws that may have cropped up, and it might not last as long.

@Verucalise-WelcomeBethany: Hey, welcome Bethany! A quality item sure to offer long satisfaction.

@trustsatan: I buy some basic things at the warehouse club (Sam's). I try to avoid the impulse buying and processed food. I look at what some people load their carts with and it is disturbing. Giant boxes of 100 calorie pack cookies by the dozens. Hot pockets, commercial sized boxes of candy, all washed down with some Keystone Lite beer.

No wonder people are broke and in bad health.

I think this goes to the Ikea vs. "real" furniture argument.

We argue that everyone should live within their means, but what if that means purchasing cheaper goods? In a really great society we can all buy really good quality furniture, and cost be damned, we'd love it and it would last for 80 years. But until we get to that point, my furniture buying will be done through Craig's List, hand-me-downs, Target and Ikea. Yes, higher quality is good, but I can't justify that $800 to be spent on a dining table.

There has to be a balance. You may want the best of everything, but the cost is too high for most people. And "best" is very subjective. I know people who think the best clothing they could ever want comes from Wal-Mart, or a thrift store. I know people who wear nothing but designer suits. It's all subjective.

@pecan 3.14159265: Reminds me, my microwaveable spring roll is waiting. BRB, need to put some butter on it.

@downwithmonstercable: I hated that book. The author of N&D permitted herself to have a car and an apartment with a full kitchen but no roommate. Surprise! You can't do that on minimum wage. ?She (knowingly) set herself up to fail because it would make a good book.

A car and your own apartment are two major luxuries that many of us, even those of us who are paid significantly above minimum wage, don't have. She was paying rent in Minneapolis that was 3 times what some of my friends were since they had roommates.

That book probably also postponed my departure from the Republican party by a few months (free and independent since early 2004, thanks) since I was so annoyed with the entitlement issues in the book.

@floraposte: Bethany says WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH, THANKKK YOOOUUUU.

@Necrosynth: I prefer my 'dickish' view.

:P

@trustsatan: Food is around 20% of what I buy at Costco.... not sure how that makes people fat???

@pecan 3.14159265: Also a lot of the $800 stuff doesn't look anything like most people would want to buy..

@Damocles57: Don't tell a woman she needs fewer pairs of shoes. That's just taboo.

In all honesty, I have a lot of shoes. I know this. And I have a lot of cheap shoes. But guess what? My tastes change. Trends change. My cheap shoes from Target have actually lasted a pretty long time. I have a pair of heels from Nine West that I remember purchasing for $50 about six years ago, and they're still in pristine condition. Would I like a few pairs of Jimmy Choos? Definitely! But I can't spend $160 on shoes all the time. You get the picture.

@midniteslayr: No, I fully understood the book's main point. I was just countering that if you are in search of something higher quality, but can only afford so much- buying used is still an option while retaining that quality as long as the item wasn't abused. Then you aren't replaying the scenario you placed above, and wasting all that money.

Of course, this might not work as well with electronics but I've had great luck with furniture and home improvements, even clothes for my kids.

@MostlyHarmless: Seriously? Spring rolls are delicious, but butter? Please be joking.

/wants a spring roll now.

@pecan 3.14159265:
I think you made my point exactly: You said, "My tastes change. Trends change. My cheap shoes from Target have actually lasted a pretty long time. I have a pair of heels from Nine West that I remember purchasing for $50 about six years ago, and they're still in pristine condition. Would I like a few pairs of Jimmy Choos?"

Controlling or shaping or guiding changes in tastes and trends and fads and styles are the bread and butter of marketers, manufacturers and retailers. Shoes are just one example. Other examples might be the latest hot color or label shape or tie width or cuffed pants or "Who is Wearing What" at some televised fashion party.

I don't necessarily put Jimmy Choos in the quality category, though they are in the fashionably desirable category. For now.

@Antiks: Do you really think Costco has some magic formula where no one has to "pay for it"?

Ask a vendor how it feels to be squeezed down to the slimmest margins to offer a couple more dollars in savings on their product.
They should make it up in volume, but that's not always the case.

Similarly, to get 40 lb bags of potatoes for $10, they're shipping in stuff from far off places (ie, not local) and likely to be mass farmed.

I love Costco, but let's not pretend it's perfect.

@Etoiles: On the clothes side, what about your wedding dress? I assume you are still engaged, that is :) How do you justify spending more money for better quality for a garment you will wear once in your life (assuming you only have one marriage, and you don't have any debutante balls coming up).

My wedding dress was $300, on sale. It happened to be cheap, but it also looked better on me than anything else I had found, and I love it. But what if it was substantially better quality and it was $1,000? I don't know if I'd love it as much considering the price. $1,000 is steep for any dress.

While I'm sure the book is true to some extent, people can't go nude to work or school. They have to wear something and some people just aren't going to ever be able to have a roof over their heads, food, and clothes if they have to buy thing that are more expensive and 'worth more'.

Books, dvd sets, tvs..that kind of stuff at BJs/Sam's/Costo, is the same stuff that is marked up at Best Buy and those other big box retailers. Why shouldn't you get a cheaper price? The author can't tell me that the same dvd set purchased at Best Buy for almost double the price will last longer than the one purchased at Costco.

As for discount stores like Marshall's and TJMaxx..I saw the same DKNY bathing suit in both Lord and Taylor, Bloomingdales, and Macy's for over $100. I saw that same exact suit (same color, design..exact with no defects)at Marshall's. For about $40.

The suit was fugly (thus memorable) but its irrelevant to the point..the more expensive stores have quite a markup. So my view on the book is not that buying cheap is causing too many problems but the markup on items is insane.

@midniteslayr: There are plenty of bargains at Costco and I've personally saved a lot of money buying there. Of course, you can easily waste a lot of money there. A lot of the time Costco's prices are no better or actually higher. And as pointed out, buying bulk amounts of food can lead to consuming a bulk amount of food. But Costco's been good to me and there's no reason you have to overspend or overeat if you're careful.

@FranktasticVoyage:
Well said.

@Radi0logy:
It's not that easier when you're single with no kids. I couldn't live on minimum wage.

I do understand the argument....that the 5 dollar shirt is going to be decimated by my washer and dryer. so i'll have to buy 4 of them in a shorter period of time.

@bohemian: Your best bet for quality is to buy directly from the manufacturer. There's really nothing those big box stores add to the products except for extra cost. Many name-brand manufacturers sell things from their websites with far better warranties and customer service.