Your Insurance Company Is Prejudiced Against Your Dog Your dog may be the darling of your household, but in the eyes of your homeowners insurance company, your cuddly critter could be a potential liability. Insurers are increasingly limiting liability coverage for certain dog breeds. [Consumer Reports]
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Why is this a problem? While in the past you used to get a "first bite" legal immunity, judges/juries aren't agreeing anymore. Esp. since certain breeds seem to have more lawsuits because they don't just bite. They maim and kill.
It's the same as getting different ins. costs based on the kind of car you have. You mean I have a higher chance of being seriously hurt in my Toyota Yaris instead of an H2???
Um, no, your insurance company is prejudiced against your dog...
...THAT BITES PEOPLE.
Certain breeds are either more likely to bite, or have owners that suck. The latter is (mostly) why pit bulls are banned outright in my city.
This is in the same category as paying more insurance on a "sports" car, even if it's just the same as the non-sports model with a different interior. Why? Because BAD OWNERS buy sports cars and wreck them.
Don't blame the dog and don't blame the sports car. Blame the owner. And in this case, it's perfectly fair: The owners are the ones paying the insurance, not the dogs.
@shepd: Meh, any dog can flip out and bite people. Some just hang on longer. Terriers seem to have their tenaciousness dialed up to 11.
@Osi: The actual meat of the story is found here:
Ol' Scooter the Yorkie up there is safe. Besides, he has no front teeth.
@shepd: The most reliable statistics in my state show that the top biting breed (serious bites requiring hospitalization, not nips and owies) is Labrador Retrievers. All of the pit bull breeds and mixes combined still come out way behind that one breed. And I've met a lot more irresponsible Lab owners than I have irresponsible bully owners. Irresponsible Lab owners just tend to be middle aged white people instead of young brown people.
The reason that people think 'pit bulls' are worse biters is mostly because of sloppy media coverage that misidentifies dogs as 'pit bulls,' and ignores injuries and even fatalities that are attributed to other breeds.
@shepd: So many people get around these city bans and other county requirements by just listing the dog as "pit bull mix" or "mutt".
and? Town ordinances will outlaw the ownership of various dog breeds due to their "supposed risk" to others.
BTW if you own a dog in NJ at least, and have them registered your information is then public all of it. just an fyi
@spanky:
Well, part of the reason they're on the top of the list is because they're among, if not THE most popular breed of dog people own. More dogs - more chances to bite.
Before the whole anti-pit crap starts: pit bulls do not have locking jaws or special muscles that no other dogs have that make them hang on tighter. They don't have any magical abilities that make them more dangerous than other dog breeds. Seriously. You're more likely to get bitten by a lab than a pit.
This happened in Ontario a few years ago and there was a big uproar. If the insurance PR people are to be believed, upwards of 90% of dog bite claims were coming from two breeds (pit bulls and rotweilers) so I can't really argue with a huge increase in premiums, but completely refusing homeowner's insurance coverage altogether seems a bit over the line.
Hmmm...you get an auto insurance discount for driving school....how about a homeowner's insurance discount for obedience training/canine good citizen, etc?
That would encourage responsible ownership instead of simply targeting "high risk" breeds (or all dogs) at the expense of more universal risk mitigation.
Maybe they already do that?
Yes, any dog can bite. Any car can cause an accident, too.
However, insurance statistics don't lie and they show that certain breeds bring in more claims, or higher claims from bites. The insurers aren't interested in *why* that is. They just know the fact is if you own a certain breed of dog, you are statistically more likely to cause them to pay out. Therefore, they adjust their odds as any intelligent casino would. If you don't like the odds, don't play the game.
It's really that simple. And it's not unfair. Insurance is nothing more than legalized gambling (Think about it--it's 100% true). You wouldn't say that the casino has a some sort of vendetta against lining up 3 triple-BARs on your slot machine, would you? No--it pays out more so they make it come up less often.
@Jupichan: As are 'pit bulls,' especially after you count all the discrete breeds classified as such, plus all known mixes of those breeds, plus all the unknown, medium-sized, short-haired mixed breed that get labeled as such.
By most definitions of 'pit bull,' they'd easily take top spot for the most popular dog. I see a lot more of those than I do of purebred Labs, and I live in Colorado, which is pretty much the Lab Capital of the World.
@RecordStoreToughGuy: Yes! I was just explaining to a friend recently...anyone who tells you "Don't worry, my dog doesn't bite" is mistaken. In fact, I sometimes think if you hear someone say this, that's a warning sign that you are more likely to get bit because they are not full aware of their dog's abilities and limitations.
My dog has never bit anyone, but I *guarantee* you that if you piss her off enough, she will bite you.
It's my job as the owner to monitor her and the people she interacts with to make sure that doesn't happen.
My aunt had a Husky, and the dog had penchant for biting kids, mostly b/c she never established dominance with the dog, and did all the things you are NOT supposed to do in that vein. After 3 bites, she seemed appalled when her home owners considered Huskies a dangerous breed, as her dog never bit anyone.
As for the "pits" and the other dogs, I think one factor is fear. People fear one breed of dog more than others, and when they get around those dogs, they do everything you are NOT supposed to do, which I think provokes/contributes to many bites. I found a female pit who got out of her house wandering the road,and yes, w/all my animals, I was cautious as I am around all strange animals, perhaps even more so. But I acted deliberately, w/no sudden moves and took her home for the humane society to pick up to find her home(she only had registration tags, not name tags, and the different cities can't look up other towns registration records).
@squinko - Coming Soon: When DDoS Attack!: If I were to guess, I would say it's the shape of the muzzle that would make it harder to pry the jaws apart if there was any "magical" ability. Compared to the muzzle of my aussie, a pits is more compact, but both dwarf the stoutness of a pug/bull dog, which I would imagine is very hard to get leverage to open.
@ShruggingGalt: You know how many dog bite fatalities there are in the US every year? Not many. 12-30, roughly, and the numbers have stayed pretty steady despite changing trends in dog breeds. Demon dogs in the past have included Dobermans, German Shepherds, Bloodhounds, Spitz breeds, you name it. But dog bite fatalities have remained pretty steady throughout.
There's no way to reach reliable conclusions based on such small numbers and such unreliable data. (In most cases, dogs' breeds are determined by sloppy eyeballing by untrained AC officers, cops, and even random witnesses.)
In fact, the only reliable conclusion you can reach from data like that is that fatal dog bites, and even serious injuries, are astonishingly rare; and that when insurance companies trot out statistics like this, it's probably just their way of raising rates and maybe doing some covert redlining.
@spanky:
Pit bulls aren't worse biters. They are just simply better killers.
65% of all fatal dog bites in the US are delivered by a pit bull.
People expect to be hurt when a dog bites them. That's why people avoid being bitten by strange dogs. Nobody should have to worry the dog that just bit them absolutely intends to kill them.
@spanky: I think your numbers are low; we had two kids killed in the space of a week earlier this year in my area.
@ShruggingGalt: I see the 30 per year number. However, that is nearly a 100% increase in the last few years (used to be 17 a year average, last few years is up to 30 a year), and there are over 3 million bites a year. Doesn't have to be a fatal injury to cause a headache for insurance companies.
@shepd: The woman who runs that site is mentally ill, and she's very biased, cherry-picking anything that agrees with her, no matter how sloppy and inaccurate.
@GitEmSteveDave: ♥'sSummermodo:
@Troy F.:
Some do. the Canine Good Citizen test is Sponsored by the American Kennel Club, and allows your dog to be titled as CGC upon passing a 10-point test.
It can also drop your homeowner's insurance with proof of passing the test.
I've known some really nippy Chihuahuas, but those aren't likely to affect anyone's insurance. American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, or whichever other dogs get lumped together as 'pit bulls' are singled out because they are more likely to seriously hurt someone when they bite. It's really just the bites that result in medical bills the insurers care about.
I definitely put myself in the 'there are no bad dogs, only bad owners' category. Anyone who has watched The Dog Whisperer can see that 'pit bulls' can be very sweet and obedient dogs. The problem with pit bulls is they are obtained by people who want what they perceive of as a tough dog. They want a dog people are afraid of. At best, these people then fail to discourage aggressive behavior in their dogs and at worst they actively encourage their dogs to be aggressive to other people and other dogs. This is even without getting into the whole fighting pit bull as gangsta fashion accessory phenomenon.
@shepd: "insurance statistics don't lie"
Really? You don't think even for a second that they might actually "adjust" some of them to suit their own bottom line? Gee, sports cars are popular, and cost lots of money, so let's make the stats fit to get some more of that money they have...."
"Gee, pit bulls are popular,....."
Who is auditing the statistics the insurance companies provide? Other insurance companies? 78.6% of all statistics are made up and have no supporting evidence. Including that one.
I don't know, I live with a bull terrier and a chihuhua.
Which one has bit me and can always be counted on to TRY to bite me?
The chihuahua.
@ShruggingGalt: There is no central repository for dog bite statistics, though, so the closest you can get is to look at fatalities, which are only tracked a little better. (And breed ID is as unreliable as ever.)
So what do you think caused this blip in fatalities? Can't be pit bulls. They've been the demon breed for over 20 years now. Must be something new.
@spanky: Pit bulls have wicked strong jaws, though. Some dogs are more likely to do serious damage than others. (And I bet Labs top your list because there are so many, many Labs as family pets.)
I like pit bulls, and a well-trained and well-loved pit is among the sweetest, most compliant dogs you'll ever meet. But many pits are used in dog-fighting, rendering a random pit met on the street more likely to be violent (and abused), and pits do have VERY strong jaws.
(I believe they're also among the breeds that are bred not to let go? Some hunting breeds in particular are bred to hold on.)
Insurance companies aren't prejudiced against certain dog breeds, they are prejudiced against risks not associated with additional premium dollars.
Insurance underwriters live and die by statistics. If certain dog breeds cause more claims than others, they will charge more money for them if it is legal to do so. They don't have any personal dislike for a particular breed, nor is the premiums charged an indictment of any one individual dog. However, in the absence of statistics that show your particular "dangerous" dog is as sweet as a lamb, they will charge more money for it.
@Troy F.: Yes, I have a cat who loves toddlers and plays very gently and patiently with them, even when they get handsy. I still don't suggest ANYONE leave their toddler unattended with my cat, or not remind the child "gentle, gentle" when they start to GET handsy. There's no guarantee THIS won't be the time when my sweet and mellow cat loses his temper. (And cat bites are so, so, so dirty.)
@Troy F.: That is an excellent idea. Especially if it results in the family down the street with the badly behaved and neglected collies having to pay higher insurance premiums or go to obedience training (aka stupid-ass owner training). I do not care which.
(Well, yes I do, I'd rather the obedience training so they'll stop neglecting those poor, bored, lonely dogs. But in the alternative I'll take a monetary penalty slapped on them.)
@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Most 'pit bulls' (again, it's really not a breed) aren't actually bred to fight. However, those that were are specifically bred to fight dogs, and to be extremely submissive with people, because their human handlers had to be able to grab and manipulate them even when they were at the height of aggression. So a dog bred for dogfighting will generally be much less likely to bite a person than one that isn't.
But again, most pit bulls aren't bred for dogfighting.
Well, given that the insurance market is highly competitive, then if the other companies were fudging the statistics, then it would be a great opportunity for a carrier to jump in and offer lower rates to those customers.
@squinko - Coming Soon: When DDoS Attack!:
"You're more likely to get bitten by a lab than a pit."
Please clarify this statement: do you mean that Labs are responsible for more bites than Pits, or that the ratio of bites/dog is higher for Labs than for Pits. It's a very important difference.
@JiminyChristmas: I really dislike the meme that bull terriers should be (insert whatever here) because they can cause more damage if they bite.
If I had a choice between being lunch for a pit bull or being lunch for a Mastiff or a Cano Presario I will pick the pit bull.
Dogs I have seen seriously injure people, tried to attack me or were crazy violent enough to eat someone given the opportunity.
Newfoundland
Chesapeake Retriever
Shar Pei
Beagle
Black Lab
All of this boils down to training. Untrained dogs that have been allowed to be pack leader or have been encouraged to be aggressive is the problem.
@JiminyChristmas: "The problem with pit bulls is they are obtained by people who want what they perceive of as a tough dog. They want a dog people are afraid of."
Yep.
I have an aunt who's a vet, and in her county the vets staff the vet ER on rotation, and she was working on evening when a pit bull, who'd been trained as an attack dog, came in with a SHOTGUN WOUND TO THE HEAD. In a marital abuse situation, the husband shot the dog in the head, intended to kill it to upset his wife, but instead managed to LOBOTOMIZE THE DOG.
The happy ending to this story is the dog, who had been vicious (both trained to be vicious, and abused), came out of the lobotomy as the sweetest, most compliant, friendliest dog ever who appeared to have no memory of his prior training or abuse. My aunt ended up adopting him -- she has no kids, so she often adopts the hard-to-place cases -- and named him Special Ed. Because the lobotomy also made him INCREDIBLY STUPID. If he stops eating for a second and looks up, he forgets the food is there. And then gets floor-peeingly-excited all over again when you point it out to him. Ever time you point it out to him. "OMG SOMEONE PUT FOOD HERE!!!!!!!!!"
@GitEmSteveDave: ♥'sSummermodo: Roll their lips over their teeth from the side, open jaw. Dogs don't like to bite their own lips for some crazy reason.
@shepd: Your driving record also impacts your insurance. Maybe your dog ownership abilities should too.
@spanky: Also irresponsible and ignorant fight dog breeders, in an attempt to breed bigger, meaner dogs, are crossing them with human-aggressive breeds like mastiffs. Which will, of course, probably not end well.
Something that needs to happen as far as dog safety beyond people training their dogs properly is people need to train their kids how to behave around dogs.
I am constantly shocked by the behavior of some kids around dogs large and small.
@MostlyHarmless: Heh, what kind do you have, and how long does it hang on when you play tug of war? :-D
Terriers are by far my favorite type of dog, mostly due to the never say die attitude that many seem to have. If I had the space, I'd have an Airedale.
@NeverLetMeDown: True, but I think they're all thick-as-thieves. If one is getting away with something, the others will do it too, even if they really want to steal their customers, they probably can't help themselves. I don't know, it's just a theory. I don't trust insurance companies very much.
@squinko - Coming Soon: When DDoS Attack!: Sure you are more likely to be bitten by a Lab. "In both the UK and USA, there are well over twice as many Labradors registered as the next most popular breed." (wikipedia) Which are you most likely to encounter?
BTW, many "Labs" and "Pit Bulls" identified as such by even experience shelter staff are found to b e INCORRECTLY identified when a genetic test is performed.
It's more important, if you are a parent, to teach your child how to safely interact with an unknown dog. If you are scared of dogs, fine, but don't pass it on to the next generation.
@Troy F.: Many insurance companies do indeed give a break for that. My obedience titled dogs earn me a little off my State Farm policy. I just send the agent a copy of the title certificate from the AKC.
If they are going by stats, I take it they consider labs dangerous.
The AKC, for all its faults, is a wonderful lobbyist on behalf of dog owners in the USA. They have a section of their website devoted to it. [[www.akc.org]]
Broken link