This is the problem with banks as they operate now:

We are essentially relegated to checking our acct daily- if not, we are pretty much subject to losing everything, and its pretty clear that the money in checking accts that have a PINned Card attached to them are not terribly secure.

Problem is, if we keep money in a seperate account, and xfer enough to cover bills/spending, we are forever under threat of a $35 overdraft charge because of the way deposits and charges are posted.

If we keep plenty of money in there, its subject to theft.

So -- either we set ourselved up for a THIEF to steal our money, or we set ourselves up for the bank to steal our money.

I go back to Chris Rock's point about car break-ins:
Why not just go to the neighborhoods and GIVE people the car stereos- it'd be cheaper than all the insurance claims, police and jail time.

@JGKojak:

I agree. It's a mess. I had a similar experience happen with a credit union, so I don't think the problem is that he picked the "wrong" bank. The problem is that banks don't give a damn about the laws that are their to protect consumers. They figure they're bigger than we are. Sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't be better off just keeping my money under my mattress, or (another Chris Rock suggestion) in a book.

The DA is calling it grand larceny, an arrest has been made, but a supervisor at WAMU can't be bothered to check the time zone on the charge and reopen the investigation? Who do they think they're kidding? For heaven's sake! I'm tempted to drop an EECB on them on your behalf. Best of luck getting your money back, Stephen. This is completely outrageous.

@JGKojak:

When I was at wachovia a few months ago, the teller tried to convince me to open a 2nd account so if anything happened, I wouldn't lose everything.

Sorry, I have enough to keep up with, with all the electronic payments, paper bills, savings, 401k, IRA, etc. I don't need a 2nd headache. I did open a savings account, and I am trying to build that up to overshadow the amount I keep in checking though. (So I might keep $1,500 in checking, but 2k in savings).

@Hil-fish: I wonder if the DA could be convinced to go after the WaMu supervisor on charges of being an accessory after the fact? That'd be likely to get things moving.

I have one other suggestion: Go to the press, particularly if you have local 'troubleshooters'. Bet they'd love to take up a cause like yours, especially since the perp was caught and you're going to testify against him.

I would fast track it directly to small claims court myself. And if they ding your credit then sue them for that too.

@outlulz: Judge Judy would nip this crap in a heartbeat! Binding arbitration FTW!

@JGKojak: I bank with USAA* and they have a setting where it will e-mail me an alert every time a transaction over X dollars hits my account. I just set X to 0.01, and it e-mails me every time any transaction happens. I suspect most banks have something similar that could be set up. This keeps you from having to sign into your account every day but lets you keep an eye on it. Plus it reminds me to update my check register.

*I won't even bother to explain to tbax929 how my USAA experiences prove that his assertion that "it's not about picking the wrong bank" is completely wrong.

At least the detective seemed to be pretty helpful; its nice when law enforcement does a good job. He even went so far as to work with the bank on the victim's behalf. What a shit show on Chase's part.

@ChristopherDavis: Brilliant comment. No armchair lawyering here. Clearly you're well qualified to provide legal advice.

/sarcasm

Sue them. Seriously. If they report your negative balance to the credit bureaus, you could even get some extra damages out of them, as that's yet another way they would have wronged you.

This is yet another reason I don't use debit cards, especially with PIN transactions, except at a bank ATM. The whole purpose of the PIN is NOT to protect you, but to protect the bank, and that is exactly how they functioned here. Instead of it making it harder for the thief to access your money (which it doesn't do anyway, since most debit cards can be run without a PIN), it just gives the bank an excuse to claim that it's "impossible" that fraud could have occurred. Which is a total lie, since it's not like PIN credentials can't get stolen when we have to routinely enter them into insecure terminals that we have no practical way of verifying the authenticity of.

If the banks were REALLY concerned about security and protecting their customers, they would implement some sort of actual strong cryptographic authentication. They don't because it's more profitable for them to use weak measures like PINs that don't protect us and give them an excuse to not honor their "guaranteed" policies.

Just say no to debit cards. They're a scam.

@jh: Hey, it would work on Law and Order, so it should work in the real world, right? Right? Good ol' Jack McCoy, always thinking outside the box.

@jh: USAA has a really good reputation, but they're not open to everyone. Unfortunately.

I don't think he's correct that it doesn't matter at all which bank you pick, but he's correct that credit unions are not a magic solution to bad customer service from banks. Many of them suffer from the same problems.

@johnva: You can't even trust bank ATMs. Remember a couple months ago when I think Chase banks had card skimmers installed on their ATM machines in NY?

Just don't bank with the big national banks. Everyone needs to be pulling their money out of those banks, after opening an account for it at a small local bank. Note, pull it out in cash (but don't bother with the "bag full of twenties" annoyance ... it will just annoy your new bank to deposit it).

Just don't bank with the big national banks. Everyone needs to be pulling their money out of those banks, after opening an account for it at a small local bank. Note, pull it out in cash (but don't bother with the "bag full of twenties" annoyance ... it will just annoy your new bank to deposit it).

@outlulz: Yeah, I know. But I figure those at least are more likely to be monitored closely than say, a random ATM in a convenience store or a PIN terminal in a restaurant or grocery store. Maybe a bad assumption, but it's nearly impossible to completely eliminate risk, and I at least try to stick to what I believe are lower-risk behaviors. Probably the safest thing would be to see a teller every time you need cash, but I don't always have time to park, stand in line, etc to do that.

For the most part, I minimize these problems by just using credit cards for everything and getting cash only about once every month or two.

@Saboth: My wife and I have four checking accounts incase of problems. If one gets blown out (identity theft or card # theft) we can quickly switch over to another without having to wait to create a new one and receive cards/checks. We use only one for day to day expenses, bills, spending and the other three, used very rarely, function as a savings parking place (this is our 1st in line backup account), a medical payment account, and a legal bills/child support account.

I recently had my debit card number compromised from the primary account and was able to quickly switch over to the savings account card until a new card arrived and then rebalance the 2nd account from the primary account.

@ChristopherDavis: Honestly, I did kind of wonder if there was some way of pressing charges - theft? fraud? false advertising? - but I think doing what what was suggested above (filing a complaint and all) would come the closest to that.

@RecordStoreToughGuy: I heart Jack McCoy.

@Skaperen: There is no reason to believe that this sort of thing is limited to big national banks. Any ATM or debit card terminal could be rigged to steal a PIN number, and it's not going to matter who issued your card if that happened. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're safer just because your bank is a local bank. They MIGHT have better customer service than this if something happens, but it's better to just not use debit cards and thus reduce your chance of this sort of fraud happening in the first place.

@bairdwallace: Amen to this. The detective deserves flowers and candy.

@johnva:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure USAA Bank just recently opened to the public. The insurance and investments are still only open to servicemembers, veterans, and their dependants.

@outlulz:
I used a particular ATM/debit card once and only once, at a Chase machine near Lincoln Center in NYC. Two months later, a slew of fraudulent charges in upstate NY. The Chase supervisor -- who was helpful in this case -- indicated that there was probably a skimmer on the machine I used.

@jh: Wow, what constructive feedback. You don't come across at all as a condescending pompous ass at all. Really, helpful stuff that contributed to the discussion, thanks!

/sarcasm

@Hil-fish: Absolutely. It's so refreshing and to see a policeman being not only helpful but totally professional in the best sense. Wish we could get his name so we could commend him to his boss.

@Skaperen: Done last week.... WaMu ----> local credit union. :D

@johnva: Just about everything money-related is a scam at some point. Credit cards are a scam. Debit cards are a scam. Checks are a scam. Even cash can be a scam. If you have anything of value, at all, there is someone out there who will try to scam you out of it.



Happy Friday, everyone!

@Skaperen: is there such a thing as a "small local bank" in places such as NYC? All around my neighborhood it was just Chase and TD.

Or what happens when your bank gets gobbled by the major banks?

And this is why I never use debit cards, and went out of my way to get a strictly ATM only card. The tellers used to try to get me to get a debit card almost every time I was in my local. After hearing me explain how my cc gets stolen at worst I'm liable for what $50 bucks, and it's their money they are lending to me, not my money in my checking account that's been stolen that I have to "hope" they decide my debit card was really stolen and then they return my money, thanks but no thanks.

@jh: I didn't see any advice being provided. Does advice usually come in the form of a question?

Dick...

@ahwahoo2006:
Nope, just military and dependents:
[www.usaa.com]

@jh: [Insert pejorative comment about jh, his mother, and his cats.] [Insert anatomy reference used as an insult, preferably one that is semi-politically correct and belongs to neither the male or female of a species.]

I would also make sure you're calling numbers on the Chase side. The Wamu portion is pretty much being run by a skeleton crew right now and they don't give a damn.

@Easton21: Does advice usually come in the form of a question?
Maybe if Ken Jennings had an advice column? He's used to giving answers in the form of a question.

@full.tang.halo: Of course they want you to use a debit card. Banks are making a large portion of their profits from fees that get generated by people overdrafting their accounts (something is infinitely easier to do via debit card).

@superberg: This is true, but at least the laws regulating credit cards are a lot stronger as far as consumer protection than the laws regulating debit cards. With debit cards you're more at the mercy of the banks' policies.

As a Canadian, I've been using my debit card for transactions almost exclusively for more than 10 years. I've never had an issue with fraud, and my PIN and card have never been compromised.

As a country, I believe now that 70% or more of our transactions are debit / credit only.

I think the key lesson here is that you never EVER let your debit card out of your view (in fact I believe there's legislation in Canada now regarding how retailers handle your card). Plus, and not to fault the OP, but if the OP had a health sense of skepticism he would have had his scam-dar alarm going off with the BS story the taxi driver gave him.

Credit card machine isn't working, how is that my problem exactly?

Dropped Wamu the week the they sold to chase. Chase screwed me every chance they could when I was a teen with a smaller bank account.

That story sounds horrible. And I thought it was bad when Flagstar tried to cheat me out of $200 with "Bounce Protection."

Hopefully Chase will respond to this.

the bank's full of it on this one - aside from the obvious NYC detective calling them to say "hey, he really did get his money jacked, we arrested the dude" - this wouldn't be the first time someone's PIN had been stolen. or has the bank never heard of phishing? Do they accuse phishing victims of lying about it too?

Don't ever hand your debit card to anyone or use it like a credit card. Don't give anyone a card that's tied to your bank account. That's insane. Use only cash or credit for taxi rides. Don't ever leave the house without $50 cab fare or a credit card. If someone asks you to let them have your debit card for any reason refuse.

@grendyll: Yes, Judge Judy is arbitration. But at least it's arbitration freely elected by both parties after the dispute.

It's the mandatory binding arbitration, with the banks choosing their favorite arbitration mill, that screws people out of their rights and gives the big banks a shield behind which they can establish policies and procedures to abuse consumers in many ways.

@speedwell, avatar of snark: ... unless his boss is on the take (no idea if he is).

@Sudonum: I've have an account and am completely non-military. I don't think they can limit banking products since they are so heavily subsidized by the FDIC, federal reserve, etc.

@ChristopherDavis: If not that, I'd like to think that SOMEONE in the justice department could be bothered to make a phone call for WaMu-Chase on the OP's behalf. Being the DA wouldn't hurt things, a friendly call to remind them that they're wrongly holding the OP accountable for funds he didn't use would probably help immensely.

@johnva: Yes, you are exposed to these issues even with small banks. But the small banks do a better job of clearing things up.

In the mean time, since you recommend to people to not use debit cards, please finish that recommendation by explaining what should people use instead, when they cannot get credit cards (or believe that credit is a bad thing and shouldn't get credit cards). Are you suggesting they just carry cash?

@coren: Most likely, yes they do accuse them of lying about it too. That's part of the whole point of debit cards from the bank's point of view: to push the liability for fraud off of themselves and onto the consumers. That's not what they CLAIM, but it's the practical effect. The banks are naturally going to be more motivated to investigate fraud that is stealing their money (as with a credit card) than fraud that is stealing your money (as with a debit card), and the laws and regulations are more lax as well.

Even with credit cards, they tend to aggressively question your story when you call in to report fraud. I'd hate to think how they might treat you if your PIN was stolen too (my guess is, "like this").

@sponica: Yes, there are. Back when I lived in Dallas, I found a small local bank there after I decided to abandon Chase when they failed to clear up an issue. That bank did get bought out by a slightly larger bank and I held on anyway until I moved back to WV. If the bank gets gobbled by a major, then move on.