Hibachi?

doesn't the repair itself have a warranty? they could always say it was a different part, but still...

Awww, punching Hitachi in the back of the head was gonna be my suggestion!

I would try to get Hitachi to stand behind their product, but it is a refurb- not sure how that would work. But give it a shot, who knows! Or else try to recoop some of your costs, see if the repair company Leader TV will buy the TV off of you and repair/sell on their own time since they have the resources.

Sorry for the sh*t TV, Mark. Your story is why I'm afraid to get rid of my 27" run-of-the-mill tube TV.

Is there any way to show there was shoddy repair work? Just because they said it was repaired doesn't mean it was repaired correctly.

It sounds like Leader TV replaced a component that was damaged by another faulty component. Thus they didn't really fix the TV, they just bandaged it.

I would take this up with them, and see if they won't correct the issue. If not, then complain to Hitachi that their authorized service center is faulty, and see if they won't do something.

Then you're SOL.

@bloggerX: No wonder it burned out.

@plim: I agree, check in with Leader TV, I'm no expert, but I think it would be unlikely that the same popping noise would be caused from two different parts.

@plim: I interpreted the "shortly after the warranty expired, so did his TV once more" to mean that it broke after that period.

I know its painful to say but for a 50" tv these days it's better to just fork over the g bone to buy a brand new one. I bought my 50" samsung a few years back and it's been amazing. I would cut your loses and chalk it up to buyer beware. If you feel adventurous or its a vendetta than by all means write the attorney general, bbb, and whoever else will listen and hope for the best.

I hope this isn't off-topic or blaming the OP, but...

I think that manufacturers and reseller got us hooked on refurbs as a cheap alternative to new. I recall at one time years ago refurbs having the same warranty as new, but whenever I've looked at refurbs recently all I see are 30 day warranties.

So if the manufacturers and resellers are to be believed that refurbs are "factory refurbished" and "just as good as new" then why won't they back them up with more than a 30 day warranty? Clearly the promise of "just as good as new" and "factory refurbished" are bogus if they can't offer a warranty of more than 30 days, or stand behind the repairs to their products.

Everybody here seems to have lived up to their end of the agreement, so I don't think there's a legit complaint here. Something out of warranty broke - that's the risk of buying refurb.

What kind of TV was/is it, and what part failed?

This is one of the last-gen rear-projection CRTs (I have the 65F59 - the 65" model). I agree - go back to Leader and push on them - these TVs are supposed to have a pretty decent reputation.

@humphrmi: Even if the warranty was reduced, 30 days? Really? The loss of warranty should be proportionate to the reduction in cost of the original. If the refurb is 30% off, having an equally reduced warranty would be acceptable.

@humphrmi: Having gone through a similar experience to the OP, that's not blaming the OP with your comment. Refurbs on modern electronics should be considered a buyer beware situation, since the problem is that a failure in one part of a device can easily flow over to another part of the device.

Having worked in a shop that did refurbs, that itself can vary widely in the reliability. My shop did parts swapping; it was expensive because there weren't many main parts. Other shops will actually go through and try to revitalize the actual board that failed to use it again, and that's a bit of an intimidating prospect.

I bought a refurbished Viewsonic TV that had a 90 day warranty on it. It arrived broken, took me a month to set up and implement a repair, and then broke about 2 days before the warranty on the repair ended. Had it been three days later when it broke again I'd have been SOL; being an active consumerist reader, I got it swapped out with a replacement (also refurbished) unit that's been nothing but sunshine and lollipops since I got it.

It's true sometimes we get what we pay for. Still the whole situation sucks.

That's disappointing to hear. I grew up with a 19" or so Hitachi TV, one of the ones housed In a huge wooden cabinet, the TV lasted almost 20 years (and much Colecovision and NES) Compared to the Sharp that we replaced it with that died a week after it's warranty expired.

(first quick notes - Credit card warranty? Warranty on the repair? Do credit card warranties cover refurbs?)

I agree with cutting his losses. Both the company and the consumer take a risk with a discounted/refurbished sale. The company is not making their usual profit on the sale. They may even be taking a loss on the sale, but they're not taking a total loss on the product.

There is more risk involved in a refurbished sale than a new sale. They can't legally sell them as "new", so they are less desirable/valuable and a discount is applied. The shorter warranty period causes both the company and the consumer to share the risk.

The company's risk is that a warranty repair (which is is all loss and expense) will either eliminate the reduced profit or make the sale an even bigger loss.

A good example of the consumer's risk is the scenario described here. I commend Mark for admitting up front that he has no rights under warranty and that it is up to Hitachi to decide whether or not they want to take a bigger hit on this refurb sale. Maybe they'll see potential customer loyalty.

As a consumer, I'd try my luck elsewhere next time even if Hitachi stands behind their product. "No hassle" is better than "resolved hassle".

Could this possibly be a valid reason to buy an extended warranty? Compare the cost of the warranty to the discount.

@starrion: The key might be to ask for a different authorized repair center. If they find a more underlying issue that "Leader TV" missed, that should be enough to get all your money from "Leader TV" refunded. Although that might require civil court, but if they screwed up the repair, you should be able to get your money back. If you paid by credit card, use them first to charge back all the fees.

I bought a refurbished Vizio over a year ago with no problems at this present time. With me saying that, its probably going to kick the bucket by next week. However, the next time you want to buy a refurbished tv go with newegg.com and buy a Vizio.

Correction, I bought it on tigerdirect.com. Just remembered.

@NeverLetMeDown: I don't think people realize the cost of the warranty gets built into their product's price. From what I recall, 20 to 30% of the cost of a product is going to be devoted towards warranty repair, as warranty repairs do result in fairly massive costs for the company providing the product. You're basically buying insurance on your product, and insurance costs money.

It's a refurb. Companies put 30/90 day warranties on refurbs because that's exactly how long they expect them to last.

Buying ANYTHING with a 30 day warranty is essentially the same as renting something for a month.

How to avoid disappointment in the future: If you're buying a refurb, assume it's going to die completely the day after the warranty expires. Any working time beyond that is a bonus for you.

If you're OK taking that chance (I'm happy to roll the dice on something like a $30 MP3 player) then go right ahead and buy a refurb. But buying a 50" TV with a 30-day warranty is simply foolish.

Another option: SquareTrade does have a good reputation for warranties on refurb electronics. (Though I haven't used it myself.) At the very least, you'll get your money back if they can't fix it.

@plim:

Is the warranty period extended by the number of days the unit is out of service? Mark alluded to a hassle and multiple visits.

He could also say that the original fault is unresolved since he did not receive a full warranty period of proper operation.

There's a little gray area to work here where a sympathetic Hitachi employee may be able to help out.

Mark seems nice enough to coax that out of them. I wouldn't say that for those below that are accusing the company of cutting warranties short on only to screw the consumer.

@humphrmi:

They can't legally be sold as new.

So you're saying that they should come with the same warranty as new, but at a discounted price. Why would anyone ever buy new?

Okay... so price them the same as new. Why would anyone ever buy refurb?

Hmmm... what's a company to do except take a total loss on the product and only sell new? Someone would probably freak out about those going to a landfill.

Put yourself in the company's shoes and tell me what you would do that was in the company's best interest?

I bought a 30 GB ipod video 5.5G from Woot.com, and it was refurbished. Worked great for about 2 days before the HDD died. Called Apple first (because that's what woot.com said to do) and according to apple the thing had been sold several years ago prior and they had nothing else on it. Odd, because I always thought that Apple only allowed it's own refurbs to be sold.
Anyway, I got a RMA # and sent the thing back, but didn't get a credit on my card until I mentioned (nicely) that I would be forced to do a chargeback.

@temporaryerror:

But did you get the black headphones?

[consumerist.com]

Woot rocks!

/Woot has allowed completely unreasonable returns.

Check with your credit card company. They sometime extend the warranty for up to a year.

@starrion: Same thing I thought. If Leader didn't fix it the first time around - or fixed it with a faulty part - shouldn't they still be responsible for repairing the television from the first time around?

@humphrmi: The apple store sells refurbished stuff with a 90-day warranty. We've bought two refurb computers from them, and we've been completely happy with them.

@wagnerism: I'm curious if the OP has contacted Hitachi again since the incident. My first phone call after the second pop would have been to Hitachi. At least, perhaps, they might have covered the costs of the next visit, etc.

@verucalise-T minus 16 days: I've found Amazon Warehouse Deals is a quite good with refurbished TVs - I bought a 40" TV a year ago for 40% of the list price and have had 0 problems with it since. I probably wouldn't buy refurbished from a company that wasn't incredibly well known though, and I'm still too scared to touch "open box" Newegg deals for large items.

@temporaryerror: Crutchfield also sells refurbished ipods, which they claim to refurbish themselves.

@NeverLetMeDown:

I don't think so either. This is exactly why I won't buy refurbished electronics or appliances, ever.

@wagnerism: I am missing where I said that refurbished products should come with the same warranty as new. Can you help point that out to me?

What I said was, 30 days is bogus for a "factory refurbished" product.

If companies want to sell refirbs, by law they should at least meet Apple's requirements: full 12-mo warrantee, no questions asked.
If a 3rd-party does the rebirb, then THEY should stand behind the product for a 12-mo period.
Anyone trying anything different should be hit on the back of the head, then made to give labor of the unit, through whichever orifice the aggrieved consumer chooses.

@kjherron: Do they also stand behind their worksmanship for twelve months?
I'd never buy a product refirbed by a third party, FWIW.

@Megalomania:
Same here. I bought my 46" Toshiba DLP from Amazon Warehouse two years ago. I've replaced the bulb once; that's it.

@coren: no, i think that was just after the original product warranty. so let's say he bought the tv on jan 1 with a 30 day warranty. it broke on feb 5. he took it in for repair. they decided to do it for free, but on feb 10, it broke again.

and besids, the warranty policy is moot. he paid for an out-of-warranty repair. the product was not repaired. the company needs to provide the services that were already paid for.

@NeverLetMeDown: not quite. customer bought a refurbished product. after the warranty expired, the customer paid for a repair. tv is still broken. how did the company live up to their end of the agreement?

As the OP, I thought I'd respond to some of the comments, all (or most, anyway) of which I appreciate for their attempts to be constructive.
We recontacted Hitachi. They seemed (in my wife's words), "rude and disinterested." So that seems to be a dead end.
Leader (the repair shop) got back to us. They said they'll charge us only (!) another $20 to come back to the house to diagnose the problem (why the diagnosis would be more successful this time than last, I have no idea). We have to follow up with them to find out what that $20 will buy us.
One item I didn't put in my original email: Leader offered to "buy" the TV from us, for $0 (yes, that's zero dollars), and we wouldn't have to pay for the repair. No conflict of interest there, I'm sure.
AFA the credit card extending the warranty - we didn't bother looking into that too much, because, at best it would have doubled the warranty, which would have taken us to 60 days.
And just to clarify: There was no warranty on the repair. The TV was worked on (I don't want to say "fixed") in mid-June, and died (again) less than 2 weeks later.
So I'm not real optimistic here about coming out of this with a usable TV. Yes, I've learned my lesson about buying big-ticket refurbs. I've also learned my lesson about Hitachi - not to expect support from them.
If I get any satisfaction from any of the vendors here, I'll certainly post back.
Thanks again to all.
Mark

@wagnerism: I think 30 days of warranty on a refurb product (that normally has a 1-year warranty when bought new) is ridiculous. In some cases, that's barely enough time to even use the item. 90-days sounds a lot more reasonable to me. I agree with you that giving a refurb the same warranty as a new product doesn't make economic sense.

I won't buy big-ticket (over $100 or so) refurbs because of the (often) 30-day warranty.

@groucho1062: Mark, if it turns out to be a total loss, take it as an opportunity to teach your children about electronics and take the sucker apart and try to fix it yourself. There's all kinds of info on the internet. (Practice your soldering first, and repeatedly.)

I have a friend in the TV repair business, and for these newer TVs out of warranty, it's cheaper to replace than to repair. And just to let everyone in on a little secret, these new flat screens aren't going to last near as long as your old CRT or even a rear-projection. I know people that bought new flat screens and threw away 20 year old tube models. We, as consumers, are used to TVs lasting a long time. That's not going to happen this time around.

At a recent TV recycling round up, I saw TVs with wired remotes, knobs with a 13 channel selector, and the big built-in cabinet units, all working fine, just not digital. and I have to say I've owned all of those in my life. Only reason I've ever bought a new TV was to upgrade, never because of failure. First month into my 42" Plasma, the thing shits out.

As a service provider (not Hitachi...yet) I provide a 90 day parts and labor warranty. $200 or more for service call and labor is not an unreasonable amount, but if the second failure was within 90 days of the first, I would not charge another service call/labor fee UNLESS I could prove the new problem was not related to the original problem.

Mark, First complain to the BBB about Leader TV. I know the BBB is all but useless, but, it is a start (I have had complaints against me, MY FAULT, I'm trying to correct them). Second, Talk to the shop owner (if it is a small shop, might be the tech that came out) and see what he will do. A repeat failure within 2 weeks means the tech just guessed at the problem. I may spend less than 30 minutes at a customers house sometimes, but I will go back to my shop and research the problem which can take several hours. And finally, talk to another service tech in your area. Just like phone or internet service, it pays to shop around. One shop will be upfront with his prices while another will beat around the bush and say "oh we'll decide when we get there"

For the record, I own a TV repair shop.

@groucho1062: Mark, I posted as anonymous earlier and I'm still waiting to see if it'll show up. I own a TV repair shop and would like to help you a bit if I can (at least give you an idea of what might actually be wrong with the TV) feel free to contact me at minutemantelevision@hotmail.com

I would consider seeing if you can consult with an attorney and a trustworthy TV repair person about options for a warranty of merchantability lawsuit against the store which sold it to you. The fact that someone says "we only warranty this for X days" does not necessarily get them off the hook if the product stops working after longer than x days if the product was defective when sold. The warranty of merchantability is a warranty which is described in the consumer code of most states rather than the policies of any store. It basically says that if you sell a good, it has to be in salable condition. They can generally disclaim it if they say "sold as is" or "no returns", but otherwise, it's required that the thing sold be in good condition such that it works and will keep working for some amount of time after the sale. So you can't duct-tape the muffler of a car in place, sell the car, and then tell the guy who comes back a day later "sorry, we only offer a 4 hour warranty". Obviously, though, the time of warranty will depend on the product. You can't, for example, buy an apple and then win a warranty of merchantability claim two months later because the apple has got rotten in the mean time.

Basically, you have to show that at the time of purchase, the device was not in sufficient condition to keep working for a reasonable amount of time. It's pretty easy to argue that TVs are generally sold to be used longer than 30 days, but the tricky bit in this case is showing that the TV was not in proper condition at the time it was sold. This will require having someone who knows what they are doing give a good look at the TV and be able to diagnose the real cause of the problem.

The real problem is that the lawsuit, unless you do it yourself in small claims court, will cost more than the TV and unless you can show they did it maliciously or have a history of doing this, then you probably can't get the court to award you legal fees if you win. That said, the filing of a lawsuit may be enough to get them to settle or alternately, small claims court would probably be a good venue.

Also, I agree with people who suggest that you should dispute charges (in whatever form) from a repair company which has failed to actually fix the television.

@humphrmi:

"@wagnerism: I am missing where I said that refurbished products should come with the same warranty as new. Can you help point that out to me?"

Your opinion that we're all "hooked" is applied to your comparison between full and partial warranties. I assumed that being hooked is a bad thing and that we wouldn't be hooked if they didn't cut the warranties short.

@verucalise-T minus 15 days: I bought a refurb 57" Hitachi rear-pro 2 years ago from Ostock.com and it works great. The extended warr costs me $112.00 and it paid for itself.

@NeverLetMeDown: that is the risk of buying any TV. These things break; they're not made of stone and a lesson that I have learned in automotive warranty issues is this: You have no idea how the product was being treated by the customer. The customer will ALWAYS lie and say that they took care of "it". I wish I could install a cam into every car and view exactly how they "treated" their vehicle. More often than not, they treat their cars like themselves.