If she wants her money back, she's probably going to court.

That problem is well known for Audis of that vintage. The converters go every few years and need to be replaced.

On something like an Audi I would always recommend going to a dealership and getting a pre-buy done. I did it before I bought an M3 a few years ago and it saved me some serious coin. (Leaky oil pan, common issue but expensive to fix). Even if the car is out of warranty they know the common problems and know to look for them.

Oh my.. this is why you test drive a used car in the first place at the lest.
Finding the check engine light should have sent a red flag, but you could also use it as a nice chip to lower the price in. Also you demand they fix the car before you buy, and, provide you with all the paper work on the work done (and issue the light caused). Seems like she did not ask for that, so, they just cleared the code. Also after work like that, you demand to test drive it again in now "fully working" in the hope nothing shakes out.

Best would be to take it to a indy dealer to have it gone over and things would have pop'ed up then.
You could also buy the car with a "word due" notice to have the light fixed and all issue related to it, otherwise contract is void (I had something like that on a new GTI regarding an iPod kit they could not install at time of delivery) but best to have it all done before you buy

If it passed emissions, then the mechanic may be wrong in saying the catalytic converters have failed.

That said, in the future, I would insist on bringing any "as is" car I buy to a mechanic and paying them $100 for an inspection and recommendation whether it should be purchased. If a dealer refuses to allow this, buy from an individual. For as-is, why wouldn't you buy from an individual?

Either way, you bought an $8K Audi, so it is clear that status and looks are important to you, so suck it up and get used to the cost associated with owning a luxury German import.

probably will need to go to court on that one. It may be sold as-is, but if the dealer purposefully withheld information from you that would make you not want to buy it, that's illegal and the contract will be voidable. Get that testimony from the mechanic who told you his opinion of what the dealer did on paper, and signed by the mechanic. Go to the dealer, tell him this, show him the papers, and threaten to sue if he doesn't return the money. If he doesn't, follow through as sue him.

I wouldn't have touched the contract to buy unless the car had a clean bill of health, or at least an idea of what was causing the check engine light to be on in the first place from an independent mechanic.

The check engine notification is electronically controlled and can be 'quick fix' cleared/reset by anyone with the relatively inexpensive tool to do so. A lot of parts shops will do it for free! Sounds like the dealer just cleared the error and passed it off as being 'fixed.' Shady.

Then again, the buyer did buy 'as is.' I call this one a toss-up.

"As-is" doesn't mean that the car comes without some warranty as to its fitness. If they knowingly sold her a car that had mechanical problems without disclosing them, they can and should be held to account. The challenge would be proving what they knew and when they knew it. But, if you can prove that they knowingly sold you a malfunctioning car and if you can prove that they broke the law (which would be worse for them) they have to make you whole.

"As-is" covers them from unknown defects and those defects that are disclosed at the time of purchase. It doesn't absolve them of the responsibility of disclosing known defects or provide them any protection if they failed to do so.

Check to see if your state has a Department of Consumer Affairs. Then look to see if they have an automotive division. I did this in my state when a repair shop took my money in advance and then didn't deliver. That shop changed their tune quickly when they got a visit from a state organization.

@Yoko Broke Up The Beatles: Don't even need a special tool. Unplug the battery for 10 minutes. viola, code gone.

Converters cost $2000 now?

Guess it's been awhile since I've had a bad one... But I only remember them being like $200 in the 90's.

IANAL but suggest you talk to to one and also check the used car laws regulating dealers in your state. This was not a private sale & there are rules governing dealers.

$8K for a car?

Anything over a buck and half and the car would have been taken to my local independant auto mechanic for a through evaluation. Might cost a few bucks but it is a wise investment.

Check engine light? Could be something simple (cheap) or could be a major event. A darn good reason to have the car checked by somebody other than the seller.

Oh, btw, screw those used car dealer warranties. Locally the used car slimes are offering a 30, 60, 90 day warranty. Sounds good, till you read the terms. Terms absolutely sux because they cover 10% of the labor costs and 50% of the parts costs. Hells Bells their dealer discount is most likely 50% off the retail price of the parts and 10% of the inflated labor charges is no great deal. Might as well as sell the car "as is".

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I do pay attention to consumer issues. This is not an uncommon situation. An 'as is' clause does not protect the seller in cases of fraud. If she can prove that the dealer behaved in a fraudulent manner (resetting the computer without actually fixing the problem and/or altering the car in some way as a temporary fix), they are still liable. Well, that's usually how it works in Colorado, Oregon likely has different laws.

Hmm lets see

8 year old German Car= Bad News 8 Year old Audi = Expensive Repairs for a fancy VW (Same Company)

But I will say a few things. First, if the Catylic Converters were not working properly it should not have passed emissions. If they were borderline then I guess you could get them very hot, run good gas, and throw some dry gas in there and it may have helped it pass. I would like to see the emissions report that will show the readings versus the limits. If they are close then it would make sense.

Here is Massachusetts they plug the car into the machine. If you have reset your check engine light then you cannot go for emissions testing for at least 24 hours. This is called a "drive cycle" and it is the computer relearning and detecting any problems. It is possible that this code took a few more days to come back. It looks like this system in Oregon may not be too modern.

She needs to check the state's lemon laws and document everything asap. She should send them an immediate demand letter since they won't talk to her anymore. It would be best coming from an Attorney.

She should get another opinion also and get the results in writing.

I also agree she should have had it checked out before hand.

Good luck!

"As is" ,from the latin ,meaning literally "don't buy this car".

The check engine light is telling you that this car needed major work and that is why it was traded in. She ignored this and failed to get a pre purchase inspection. Sorry for her ,but after the sale is complete is too damn late. As much as I hate dealer tactics (and this goes in the file of shameful ones), I would ASSUME that the dealer did whatever was cheapest and short term (like pouring a lot of clean burning ethanol in the tank) to get past emissions. She bought an education here. Thank God is was only about 8K.

@jrizos: I was wondering about that. A check engine light could just indicate it needs a service, for example. I assume that one cannot "cheat" the emissions test by "reseting the codes" as in fact a failed catalytic converter would result in a failed test, right? It would be interesting to see if the car passes emissions with that failed cat...

The issue with the sketchy "repair" aside, as-is means as-is. There's usually still a few reasons why you might be able to have the contract undone, depending on what state you're in - it sounds like passing of emissions is required in Oregon, so you might be in luck if you can get that second mechanic to testify for you in small claims court that they did not properly repair the problem and basically cheated the State into passing it on emissions.

That said, if you choose not to have it checked out by an independent mechanic first, why in god's name would you sign an as-is contract? I'm going to say it should be the dealer's problem to reimburse the OP's out-of-pocket expenses for the issues directly relating to the car's would-be failed emission test, but anything else that needs repairing is on the OP. Buyer beware.

You could always do this:

Range Rover Protests Its Own Existence Outside Dealership

I'm pretty sure all the dealer did to make the light go off was to pull the battery cable to reset the codes.

Of course I'm also pretty sure that the car didn't pass a legitimate smog test with a completely dead catalytic converter.

Finally, I'm sure that with a 9-year-old luxury car this won't be the only $2000 repair that pops up.

In order:
Try the various Government offices that might help: attorney general, Bureau of Auto Repair (or whatever it is in OR). Might fall under some law about Merchantability.

Yes.

Yes again.

@lawnmowerdeth: On an Audi, it doesn't surprise me. German luxury cars are absolute murder on your wallet when repair time comes. (Owned a 20 year old Benz... never again)

Was the emission testing done by the dealership or the State? I would tend to think that if the State did the testing they would have/should have noticed at the time the converters were bad or going bad. If the dealership did it you were probably hosed....however what if they falsified the test!!!! I'm reasonably certain that the sensors would have detected an emission problem caused by the converts at that time. I don't believe they just suddenly go bad as opposed to gradually failing.

@jrizos: Status? Really? A person who spent the last six years driving a fucking Geo Metro is concerned with status? Are you fucking kidding me?

It could be that you know, Audi makes really nice cars and she really liked it. I drove a Geo Storm for a few years, which is way better than a Metro, and my Focus seemed like a damn Ferrari compared to that car. So I can only imagine how impressed she was with the Audi after six years of driving a $500 beater. Let's cool it with the OP blaming bullshit and try to help this poor woman out.

That being said, I'm not sure how much help I can be to her. Definitely made some bad decisions there, especially for a Consumerist reader, but hey it happens. It doesn't change the fact that the dealer sounds shady as hell. Like someone else suggested, I would definitely check their BBB rating to see if they've pulled similar crap before.

If you can prove that this isn't the first time they've done something like that, a judge may be more likely to side with you. And given the shady nature of their business, I doubt these guys really want to go to court. If they won't return your calls, it might be a good idea to show up at the dealership in person and talk to whoever's running the place. Don't waste your time with peons and middle management, as they are of no use to you, and couldn't help you even if they really wanted to.

I would really hold off on threatening them with a lawsuit though. That's your very last resort, and treat it as such. The dealership has a pretty solid case, and if you go in there talking about lawsuits, they might refuse to even talk to you and refer you to their attorney instead.

I think that expecting these guys to cover the full cost of your repairs might be wishful thinking, as I don't see it happening. However, they might be willing to work out some kind of a deal with you where both sides could be fairly satisfied. Chances are they bought that car at an auction for a fraction of what you paid for it, and might be able to cover some of your repairs without it seriously affecting their profit margin. They were also probably pretty happy to see that car go, as it sounds like it was a tough one to sell to anyone who was even slightly mechanically inclined.

Explore all your options, and don't let those shady bastards talk you down. You need to stand your ground, but at the same time you need to be reasonable seeing as they pretty much have you right where they want you. Those guys aren't stupid, and they knew that whoever bought the car would be bringing it back two weeks later with all these issues that "suddenly" popped up. They rushed the paperwork to cover their own ass, but the paperwork isn't bulletproof and they know it.

Remember, use the courts as a last resort. Good luck!

Check the local commercial statutes to see if "as is" clauses on contracts are allowable.

ex: In Oklahoma they are not, they can be included in the contract, but they aren't enforceable. The deal would still have a duty for implied warranty of merchantability.

@Snarkysnake: Check engine can be anything, major to minor. On one of my cars the check engine light comes on if you don't close the gas cap completely. Another recent check engine problem (same car) accompanied by rough idle (sounds bad!) turned out to be an ignition coil -- a $30 part that can be easily replaced at home in 15 minutes.

If you see a check engine light, FFS find out why it's on! ...don't just ask that it be turned off.

For less than $100 you can get a self contained ODB II reader that will (for any car sold in the US since 1996) tell you exactly why the light is on. And for silly things like the gas cap, you can clear the code yourself.

I have no sympathy for this person. There are 2 "musts" when buying a car.

1) Get a CARFAX

2) Have the car inspected by a mechanic of your choice.

DUH!

@mariospants: well...you can clear the codes with a device (instantly), or you can disconnect the battery for a few hours and 'reset' the computer in the car. The codes will NOT pop again for a day or two or X-hours of usage (depends on what it is, and how often the problem occurs).

The cats may not be totally failed, but are failing along with O2 sensors and other emission parts on the car...or it could be a bigger issue up-stream that is clogging the cats until they get hot enough to burn it up.

@PHRoG: On my car all you have to do is pull the 10A fuse and it clears the codes.

@mariospants: You can absolutely fake out an emissions test by resetting the codes. Now a days all the emissions test does is plug a computer into the car. Not once in since I have had my 2001 Impala have they actually checked what the actual emissions of the car is. As long as there are no "check engine" codes in the car's system, it will pass. I actually did this with my car when I didn't want to pay $500 to have a nearly useless sensor fixed. So I bought a $20 code checker and cleared it right before pulling in to be emissions tested. Passed with flying colors.

@tedyc03: When it comes to used car sales what dealers are required to disclose varies widely by state. Where I live, the only thing a dealer is required to disclose is whether or not the vehicle has a branded title. Otherwise, it's caveat emptor.

@zentex: So what, I can unplug my battery in my '91 Celica that is failing CA smog, and it'll pass if I drive it there asap?
Wouldn't that be nice!

I would agree with the others in that it is very important to take a potential used-car purchase to a trustworthy mechanic. You can save a ton of money.

Regarding seeing the check-engine light, I would have taken the car straight to an Autozone or a similar store where they provice free diagnostic scans. They will give you the code(s) producing the CEL which you can later look up online or ask a mechanic to see what exactly the codes mean.

And if they cleared the codes then it may take up to a few hundred miles to complete all the OBD-II tests. And during that time a "soft" code may even be stored that will not light the CEL and only readable when a OBD-II scanner is connected.

Why oh why wouldn't you take the care to get it checked out before you buy it?
WHY?
I had a similar experience years ago, found a great car, exactly the one I wanted. Drove beautiful, clean inside/out/engine, no black smoke nothing I could surmise was wrong.
I then took it to the Toyota dealer for a pre-buy inspection. They checked it out and came back with AT LEAST $4,000 worth of repairs that needed to be done [the car was $4500 at the USED CAR lot].
It had a blown head gasket, etc...
Took the report from Toyota back to the dealer and told him he should pay ME for the car. He laughed, questioned where I got the report, then told me they were lying to me to get me to give them money.
After explaining to him that they clearly knew I didn't own the car so his argument was BS I left, laughing all the way home.
From my own experiences and what my mechanic recently told me, don't buy from a used car lot. They get the CRAP of the used cars.
Buy from the cars owner, do your own inspection and take it to a mechanic before you buy it.
Don't let a smooth driving, pretty looking car fool you into thinking its ok.
Guessing the OP has definitely learned all these lessons.

@Zuhaib Mirza Siddique: Not to burst your bubble, but with a catalytic converter code, the check engine light won't come back on until a few days worth of driving. Test driving after the code is cleared will only serve as a false sense of assurance.

Of course, you are correct that she should have first gotten the proper diagnosis, and had the worked checked (if not performed) by an independent party. I would have even had a third party check the code before it was cleared to ensure that there aren't any other codes that they aren't telling you about.

@bonafidebob:

Places like Autozone will also give you a free reading and at least tell you the code that is causing the light. They may not tell you what it means, but that's what Google is for!

@veronykah: Depending on the vehicle certain states will only plug in to the computer and have the computer report if there any issues. Older vehicles still have to have the sensor stuck in the tail pipe. For example, in Maryland for cars made after 1996, under 8500 lbs, with a computer controlled fuel system they only use the onboard computer.

[www.marylandmva.com]

I don't know about Oregon, but in many states, car dealerships cannot make "as-is" sales. They must warrant the car for some minimum time, maybe as little as 30 days. In those states, private citizens ... whose business is not the selling of cars ... can sell them "as-is," but dealerships, whose business is the buying and selling of cars, cannot absolve themselves of responsibility that easily.

That doesn't mean they can't put an "as-is" clause into the contract. It doesn't even mean they can claim it was an "as-is" sale and tell you they're not responsible. What it does mean is that clause won't be honored by a court. IOW you'd be free to sue them.

Running this by a lawyer might help. Even if you have to pay for a brief consultation or a letter to the dealership, you're talking about $2k, so it very well could be worthwhile.

@tedyc03: They key words you want to use are "warranty of merchantability" - this will show that you actually know a bit more than the average bear.

While As-Is can and does hide a whole lot that happens after the sale, what warranty of merchantability does - and what the mechanic you've gone to is trying to set you up for - is protect you when a dealership knowingly sells you something that was defective at the time of sale. The fact that the check engine light was on and you asked to have it fixed (and they had it for a full day to fix it) does imply that they had the time to properly appraise themselves of the problem and fix it before giving it to you. The insistence on getting an emissions inspection is even sneakier.

The good news is that they had to have done some servicing on this and should have the service records for the full day. After all, the service side of their business is not a charity - they will charge the sales department for the labor and any parts they used.

The bad news is that you'll have to subpoena these through small claims court. But it is a fairly simple form. If they don't have records, even better news - they won't be able to say what they did to fix and/or diagnose the check engine light and your affidavit from a licensed mechanic wins.

Even better news? Buying a car is perhaps the single most regulated thing you'll do as a consumer. Don't take the whole "you're hosed" thing from posters to heart. It's a labyrinth of rules and regulations, but they are there - and most dealerships count on you feeling rather defeated. They also don't think you'll take time to go to small claims court.

EVEN Better - contact AUTOCAP - they'll mediate for free. You do want to try to work this out with the dealership owner first. AUTOCAP will mediate if you bought this at a franchised auto dealership and the service is free, so that's always an option as well. ([www.nfada.com])

I suggest a complaint of fraud with the OR attny general - I had a similar experience in IL and got a $1,000 refund for a laundry list of repairs on a used Land Rover that I experienced within a very short time of purchase.... If I were you I'd offer to settle for $1,000 and let the rest be a lesson learned (I learned my lesson!)

@jaya9581: It passed emissions.

Here are the facts:

1) Car has a "check engine" light on. The dealer makes it go away. Customer is happy.
2) Customer signs a contract that says "as-is".
3) The dealer gets her to do a emission check and it passes.
4) One month goes by as the customer uses the car. Something fails.
5) Customer bought a used car with no warranty and tries to fight dirty by saying that the car was sold illegally when it passed the emissions test.

Sorry customer. In this case the dealer did everything right and it's your fault for not having someone check out the car before signing "as-is".

@PsiCop: That's dumb. If I'm selling something I should be able to put "as-is" on the table. You can take it or leave it.

Government controlling private citizens once again....

@hillsrovey: Where is the fraud? The car passed emissions and the customer signed "as-is".

2000 dollars to have new cats put in is crazy. Everyone that I know (who can work on a car) can buy cats from the autoparts store or JEGGS or Summit, cut the old ones out and weld the new ones in and it just takes a few hundred dollars. You can even get replacement high flow cats with the bungs for the 02 sensors if you must.

She just needs to find a high school with an autoshop and leave the car with them for a day or so. They'll fix her up right for less than she expected.

This sounds like a problem I have had with my Subaru: the catalytic converter delivers below-spec performance on hot days and trips the sensor. Resetting the warning light keeps it off and the CC runs fine most of the time. Then along comes a day that trips it again. The dealer did what my mechanic told me to do: reset the light and hope it doesnt come back. He wanted you to get the emissions done soon, because the CC keeps emissions below acceptable levels most of the time, but will fail again eventually. Thats why it passed inspection but tripped the light again: its performance is good enough most of the time, but later falls below spec long enough to trip the sensor. Are you concerned about the emissions? If so, reset the light and then see how long it takes to come back. That will tell you how badly its failing. a week later: its pretty dead; a month later: its got some life left in it. Are you not so concerned about the emissions? you just passed inspection, so you are good until you have to re-test. Then you'll have a deicsion to make. As for the dealer: make it clear that you're ready to make a deal otherwise you're going to the state authorities with a complaint that they deliberately gamed the emissions testing and I would expect them to offer you something reasonable.

@solareclipse2: Sigh....

What the repair shop needs to pay for:

* Parts.
* Labour.
* Training.
* Insurance.
* Shipping
* Taxes
* Property
* Water/Electricity
* Etc...

That's why so many of our jobs are moving to China and India. Americans are so cheap.

@dave_coder: Read it again... the allegation is that they reset the light to make it pass. In every case I've ever heard of, if that light is on it will not pass, and the light doesn't come on without a reason.

Contact the bureau that licences car dealers in OR. They would be the first step I would take considering it's illegal in OR to sell a car with faulty emissions equipment. Nothing will get that car dealer scumbag to hop-to faster than the state threatening to revoke his licence.

A check engine light can signal something as innocuous as a loose gas cap, so I think some of you are being too hard on the customer here.

Trisha didn't say how she paid for the car. If she used a credit card, she could try filing a fair credit billing act dispute with the bank.

She should also try getting a second opinion from a different mechanic. The car passed emissions testing, but shortly afterwards the catalytic converters failed? Could be, but it could also be that the very nice mechanic is also looking for some additional income. I know he seems so helpful, what with not charging her for all that extra work since he was already in there and all, but you never know.