What Do You Do When Family Friends Don't Provide The Furniture You Already Paid For?
Ryan is stuck in a bad situation. His father is friends with a the guy who owns a local furniture store, and the store has failed to deliver some custom-made furniture that was fully paid for up front as a goodwill gesture. Now Ryan wants the order canceled, but the owner and his wife are refusing to cooperate.
Here's his story. What would you do in a case like this?
I have a story about a situation my parents and I find ourselves in with a local business. I bought my first house last year. So my parents wanted to give me a large birthday/house warming gift this year. They offered to buy me a set of handmade bedroom furniture from a local store/builder they knew. I thought this was great. I would get nice furniture that I could use the rest of my life and we would be helping out a locally owned business.
The local business is owned and operated by a husband and wife. My father is friends with the husband. The wife runs the store and the husband runs the mill where they make the furniture. Besides the store they also sell through catalogs (they are contracted through some national companies).
Early this year my father mentioned to his friend that we were planing on making this large purchase in a few months (my birthday). His friend told my father the bad economy had hurt their business so much that they might close the business before our planed date. So we decided to go in early to help them out.
We went to the store March 22nd, and picked out a king sized bed, a large chest of drawers with a cupboard on one side and a bedside table. I requested some modifications to the bed which resulted in a nominal but appropriate bump in price. In the end the total bill was a couple of thousand dollars (a significant sum in my opinion). Usually they have customers pay half up front and half on delivery. We knew they were having trouble so we paid in full. The furniture would be delivered in eight to ten weeks which should have worked out good with my birthday. I provided my name and address as the point of contact for the order.
As time went by we heard nothing from the furniture shop. After eight weeks I called to get an update on the status of our order. I was told the person who knew about that stuff that was out of town. They promised he would call me back. I never received a call back. So I called again the following week (May 21st, week nine) and spoke to a man who told me the furniture would be ready in two weeks. They would call me when it was ready. I was excited to finally be getting my furniture so I started waiting again.
More time went buy and there was no call. Finally three weeks later on June 10 (twelve weeks after we placed the order) the wife called me. She said they would start working on my furniture later in June and would be ready to deliver mid August. Needless to say I was flabbergasted. They had not even started work after twelve weeks! They would deliver in August (over twenty weeks after we placed the order)! This was unacceptable. She gave me a standard list of excuses: unexpected orders came in, low numbers of employees, unwillingness to compromise quality, traditional summer vacation for employees, etc. My response was clear, "We will take a refund." She accepted this and we ended the conversation.
A couple of hours later (as I was driving) the phone rang and went to voice mail. Listening to the message I hear the woman laying out a different story: actually they had already starting working on my furniture, they had ordered special parts, and they could make delivery in July. So they didn't want to give us a refund. At this point I was quite upset with the whole situation and called my parents to see what they wanted to do, after all they had paid for the furniture. My father said he would call his friend to get the real story about what is going on. That was on the June 10 and so far the friend has not returned my father's phone messages.
Now I understand that unexpected things happen. But this is ridiculous. If our order was going to be delayed by so much we should have been contacted months ago. Why was I told "two weeks" on May 21st when they had absolutely no intention of following through on that promise. Clearly since we paid in full there was no incentive for them to complete the order. What we thought would be a nice gesture actually sent our order to the bottom of the pile. My parents payed with a credit card so a charge back might be an option (we are past sixty days, but the product was never delivered as promised). We thought these people were our friends so we don't want to take the nuclear option if we don't have to.
Furthermore I don't see any reason to compromise on our side. If we allow these people to take advantage of us then they will continue to run their business in the same manner. I think we have a civic duty to not roll over. At any point during the originally promised eight to ten weeks they could have called me and explained that they were having issues. But the reality is they made no effort to communicate with until week twelve. That is two seeks after they originally promised to make delivery.
Do you see any good solution to the situation we are in?
They're probably in a terrible financial situation right now and stuck between increasingly dismal choices, but that doesn't give them the right to hold your money hostage. What we're worried about is they may be so focused on their own sinking ship that they'll inadvertently take your furniture order down with them, and you'll never see your money or your furniture.
Maybe you and your father should show up in person to meet with the couple and settle on a realistic delivery date, and to make it clear to them that friendship or no, your father will have to initiate a chargeback if that date is missed. It's purely a money issue at this point—you need the furniture or the cash to buy something else—and hopefully they have enough maturity to understand that your father wasn't providing them a cash gift.
What do you think? Are we being too nice to the furniture store owners?
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(Photo: Chrispitality)
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Comments:
and this is exactly why i don't do shit for my friends and family.
also why i don't rely on friends and family for services either especially "favors"
two words: judge judy
I think trying to work something out with the owners, as suggested in the second-to-last paragraph is the perfect options. Maybe I've just been watching too much Judge Judy lately, but I think this can be worked out without needing to involve the credit card companies or small claims court.
Good luck to Ryan and his family. I think if the owner doesn't provide the furniture by the agreed upon date, then a charge back is in order.
I would absolutely meet with them with your father and tell them that you want the furniture or a refund. It is terrible customer service to have you wait this long and then lie about it. You helped them out by making payment in full instead of half now, half later and they should make a good faith effort to help you out and get your furniture made or return the money.
It's a bad situation, but foreseeable. They told you "we're having serious cash issues", you gave them cash, then used it, it didn't fix the underlying problem (no one but you is buying furniture), so they most likely have no money to buy/pay to build your furniture. This is why friends and business aren't great mixers.
/turns "blame OP" comment shield to 105%.
Never deal with family, and never deal with friends of family. Just avoid it, because it gets awkward when the deal goes south. You don't want your mom to know you're smoking weed? Don't buy weed from your cousin.
I think the OP and his father need to confront the shop owners and be very clear that it is no longer a meeting between friends, it's a meeting between two parties that entered a contract (payment for services/product) and that the contract was not fulfilled on one end.
The OP needs to be very clear to these people that they have taken advantage of their good will, and that he no longer wants the furniture (even if he does, they only win if he gets the product because they'll still have the money) and that they need to refund the money, in full, right now. Financial troubles do not excuse what now constitutes as theft because not only do they have the money, they won't even give him the truth - and if I were the OP or his father, I'd seriously consider whether they even intended to deliver any furniture at all.
furniture stores are notorious liars.
my parents were told 6-8 weeks on a set of couches they bought about a year and a half ago. i think they finally got them on the 14th week, and only like 3 weeks after a threat of cancelling.
i personally think that in the information age we live in, if you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a product, you should be able to get a status of exactly where it is in it's lifecycle. if you order a car new, you can trace it's steps. if you contract for a house to be built or a custom piece of software to be written, you can follow the progress closely. why should furniture be any different?
@thebuffster: The furniture wasn't provided by the agreed upon date. The OP was told 10 weeks and after week 12, he started getting more and more excuses.
Unfortunately, it is a situation that is likely to become more common as the economy deteriorates. While it seems worse that its happening among friends, the fact is that everyone needs to be more conscious of those situations where money is given for goods or services to be provided at a later date. There may be some exceptions (I'm not an attorney) but typically the money given as a deposit is considered to be an unsecured obligation of the company and if the company declares bankruptcy you will stand in line for repayment with everyone else owed money.
You should never buy anything from a friend. Period. This applies to MLM "appointments/parties," cars, furniture (as we see here)...all the way on down to illegal substances. Friends don't let friends buy their stuff.
What's that Godfather saying? "My heart's for my family and my ball's are for business".
I don't think you can mix those two together cause then you got some weird heart..... With balls on it.
Did I just think that out loud...?
@winstonthorne: Well, I disagree with this. I take care of my stuff, and if I needed to sell it, I could be comfortable with selling it to a friend because I know they'd take care of it and they know that I take care of my things too, so they're not getting a bad product. But we'd also deal in cash only or bartering.
@Darrone: Business is business, and if the furniture couple doesn't understand this, then they shouldn't be in business to begin with.
Additionally, a friend that can't understand that business is business isn't a friend at all, candidly speaking.
@B1663R:
@OMG! ThePrincessIsInAnotherCastle!:
totally true, should charge it back and take their business elsewhere, in these times people need to let businesses know that they're not in control of your purchasing power
"We knew they were having trouble so we paid in full"
And what were your expectations?
Good lessons learned in this one:
- Don't do business with friends or family (this should be taught in school, alongside how to balance a checkbook).
- Try to avoid having a friend or family member pay, as a third-party, for the sale. It just complicates things. If they must pay, then have them cut you a check and you pay.
- Also, if someone offers to get you a gift, have them do all the work. It sounds selfish and rude, but you become the third-party when they try to include you on the sale, and that's just as complicating. Trust me, it's easier if only one side handles everything, including shopping around!
- Don't wait eight weeks to communicate with the business. Keep in contact with them. Get a progress update once a week or once every two weeks for projects this long. At least it will remind the store about your project and that they can't just put you on the backburner.
- Don't let emotions into any business decision. It's sad the business is failing, but if you want to help, then offer to volunteer or loan some equipment you don't mind doing without. If the business fails, you still have the friends. If you got in with them and it fails, you'll likely have nothing afterwards.
Could the company provide loaner furniture in the meantime if you agree to go ahead and accept a much delayed delivery date? It would give you something of value should the company go under in the meantime.
sue
Moral of the story: Never do business with friends and family.
I would say do NOT sit down with them at this point. File the chargeback NOW.
It sounds like their company is going down. If they file for bankruptcy, you will be SOL.
You gave them plenty of opportunities and plenty of time. Chargeback. Now.
Apparently it wasn't the economy that hurt this compnay but thier poor customer service. This is embarrasing, if they were doing so bad they should have had plenty of time to build your furniture.
@TheWraithL98: I ordered a bed from Z-Gallery a couple of weeks ago. I was told that I'd receive it within the first 2 weeks of July. To my surprise, just 5 minutes ago, I got a call from them to schedule a delivery date at my convenience.
So I'm getting my furniture about 4 weeks earlier than promised, which is cool with me.
How about: Give me a refund and charge me again.
That way I can get a chargeback if the delivery date isn't met.
Maybe everyone saying not to do business with family should just admit to themselves that they have horrible families???
@wcnghj: I like this suggestion, in conjunction with the in-person meeting idea.
I can't tell if the friendship is really a factor at this point or not, or if Ryan's father is prepared to deal with the situation as he would with any recalcitrant business. I would say the in-person meeting offers a last chance to keep things on a friendly footing--Dad says I know times are hard, and I'd like this not to stand between us. You were paid in full for items that haven't been delivered, and I'd like to keep the deal between us, and I'll need to leave here with something more than a promise for that to happen.
If he doesn't get it, then I'd be looking to chargeback and/or state's attorney general's office.
@B1663R: Amen. Get down to the store and talk it over with them. If they do not produce the furniture or the money, I would contact BBB and even take an ad out in the paper warning people not to go there.
But never deal with friends and family...they are usually the first to stick it to you.
@strathmeyer: Most people who do business with family members or friends of family do not have horrible families.
It's that human beings are emotional, and that whenever you deal with family members, it gets personal. Business shouldn't get personal like that. If my sister (I don't have a sister) owes me money, and has promised to pay me back, she should pay that money back. But at the same time, my mom would probably intercede on her behalf and tell me to cut her some slack because "she's family"....we make excuses for one another, we forgive one another - we make emotional decisions when it comes to family, decisions we cannot afford to make when it comes to business. This is why the two don't mix.
@OMG! ThePrincessIsInAnotherCastle!: Agreed - I think it's diplomatic, and it separates the friendship from the business transaction, so it's not an epic guilt trip on either side. The bottom line is that the chargeback will be done if the product isn't delivered by the promised date. Again.
What's up with the rash of people behaving badly, lately? I heard about a woman who made a beautiful cake only to have some random party guest dismantle it before it had even been cut. Wacky. Maybe someone dumped crazy into the water system?
Um, the "unexpected orders" suggest that they have cash flowing now, and even with too few employees they apparently are finding work for them to do. So, you did a risky but noble thing ordering from an at-risk local small business. The worst would have been they went bankrupt and you had no way to get your money back; that didn't happen. The best, and what should have happened, is that they treated you well in return for your kindness.
Instead, you've been used. They took your money and they gave other quotes priority over yours so as to get more orders. This is a lousy way to do business, a worse way to treat a friend, and inexcusable in dealing with someone who offerred a helping hand.
Screw 'em. Do a charge back. They aren't fulfilling your needs so they must not need your business.
The first clue, by the way: "We have so little business we might go bust... but your order will take 10 weeks."
@B1663R: You wouldn't help out your family if they needed it? Sure I have some family members that are slow to repay debts, but I couldn't just turn a blind eye like you seem to be able to do.
(Unless you don't like your family in the first place. If that's the case, then carry on)
What if you were the one needing help?
@strathmeyer: It's very true that most people either have a bad family member or two or have a few maybe even a lot of bad friends. Don't do business with a family member is a very old saying and it was taught to me when I was young. As far as I'm concerned the only family member you should be doing business with is your spouse.
Unfortunately we all know why his order hasn't been delivered:
"Clearly since we paid in full there was no incentive for them to complete the order"
It is such a sad, sad thing that people will view your kindness as an excuse to take advantage of you, but that is the case most of the time. Chris Walters advice is excellent and allows both parties to save face as long as you can come to an agreement. So sad that this will just be a learning experience to not trust people, even if they are friends.
Why would anyone pay 100% upfront for furniture that wont be ready for 10 - 12 weeks to a business that is contemplating going out of business?
@chrisjames: Ditto on your first bullet point there. I've learned that lesson. If friends or family ask me to do computer work for them, I treat it as a gift because I care. I go in expecting not to get anything out of it. If they wish to compensate me for my efforts that's a bonus. In the end we're both happy.
The Upside to that philosophy is my dad's 5 sisters shower me with all sorts of wonderful baked goods.
There is a little-known detail about chargebacks: you actually have 120 days, according to Visa. However, most banks still quote 60 days. I bank with Bank of America (yeah, yeah, I know), and the last time I inquired about a possible chargeback, they stated that they actually go by the maximum allowable time that Visa allows.
Now, this may be different for BofA's check cards; I haven't looked into it. I know for a fact that it varies quite a bit from bank to bank. Call yours right away and find out. If you can file a chargeback, do so NOW, while you still can. The process takes time, and you can always cancel it. But you won't be able to do it at all if you don't start soon.
@pecan 3.14159265: Amen. I remember watching an episode of the Sopranos once when Artie Buco went to Ralph Cifaretto to borrow money for some scheme he was working on. After thinking it over for a few moments, Ralph quietly declined to lend Artie any money. His reasoning:
"Because if you don't pay me back, I ain't gonna be able to hurt you."
You have to ask yourself, when confronted with situations like lending money to friends or family (or throwing some business their way), if this goes south, am I going to be able to do what it takes to make it right? For me no amount of money is worth damaging the relationships I have with my friends and family. So I take a 'Ralph Cifaretto' approach to these situations and quietly decline.
Although, if life were as simple as on the Sopranos, I'd just advise to have this furniture store owner 'taken care of.'
@strathmeyer: Actually I (partially) attribute the good relationship I have with my family and friends to the fact that I never do business with them. It keeps things simple.
@B1663R: I wouldn't mind helping my family out with simple things, because my dad wouldn't mind helping me fix something if I needed it. It's what family is for, support. But if I felt like family was starting to take advantage of my good will I'd talk to them about it.
Get half your money back now, with agreement that you'll pay it back upon delivery. If they refuse, chargeback.
I feel bad that they have financial troubles, but your friends are the LAST people you should be screwing over when you do business with them. I can't stand people who take advantage like that.
IMO, screw the friendship -- they already have. Send a certified letter demanding delivery of the furniture within x weeks, otherwise legal action will be taken. Then take them to small claims.
Nah, I think sitting down with them and saying, basically, "Hey, give me what I paid for, or give me my money back... or I'll take my money back" is perfectly fine. It's more than what I would have done.