Watered-Down Gasoline Damages Cars Near Baltimore
Rain water, not fraud or sabotage, is behind the bad gasoline sold at stations near Baltimore early this week. Hess, the supplier, is covering any damage to customers' cars caused by the diluted fuel. So, how does this happen?
Pete Horrigan, president of the Mid-Atlantic Petroleum Distributors Association, said recent heavy rains could be to blame, as the rain can collect on the seals of storage tanks or leak into the service station supply.
"When the ground gets saturated, it's possible that when the driver removes the cap to hook his delivery hose to underground storage tanks, it's possible that water could get into the tank."
Oceanic station owner Adrian Hughes said he's a victim, too, and is working around the clock to fix the cars.
How much water needs to leak into an underground tank before it damages cars, I wonder?
2nd Gas Station Hit With Bad Supply [WBAL]
(Photo: vc_vigilant)
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Yes, very impressed with the owner taking the pre-emtpive right move. Of course in the end I'm sure they would lose any suits, but at least they didn't play games. I wonder how many people are planning on abusing this...
In this case Hess admitted that the terminal's underground storage tanks had water intrusion. So Pete Horrigan, who was trying to say it was the station's fault, can't even get their facts right.
Liability is 100% on Hess, and they're taking care of it.
I'm betting that their tanks have a leak at the top of the tank, so heavy rain would seep into the tank easily.
And a leak at the top can't be found using the normal leak detection methods.
A few years back, a local "generic" gas station around here got a bad delivery. They also offered free repairs, and towing to anyone who had any issues. It could be part of the insurance package they have to take out, or it could be, "if we don't do something, no one will ever come back." Either way, good job. And the explanation of how the water could have gotten in there is plausible with the weeks and weeks of rain that we have gotten on the east cost recently.
It's been many years since I was in the fuel trucking business, but our pipeline used a 'slug' of water between different types of fuel coming down the pipeline. Say they were pumping diesel and decided to switch to unleaded gas. They would insert a few (hundred/thousand) gallons of water at the end of the diesel, and before the gas started. They could sense the water when it reached the far terminal, and they (hopefully) discarded the water before switching tanks. Didn't always happen that way though...
Hmm, shady shit in baltimore....I blame Clay Davis....
I got hit by a fill-up of watered-down gas from a Citgo station in Belmont, MA a couple of weeks ago, one day before leaving on a long driving vacation. Fortunately I was able to get to a parts shop for a bottle of dry gas before my car completely died. Not fun.
Note to self: Skip the mid-grade gas.
I was traveling from Arizona to Las Vegas for a convention and chose to fill up a nearly empy tank with some mid-grade gas because I wanted a little more oomph and I was too cheap to spring for high-octane. A couple miles down the road and I lost about half my power. I managed to limp into an auto-parts place who said "Yeah, when it really rains a lot, water can get into the tanks and mid-grade isn't as popular as the other two so it sits there. Try a bunch of Heet dry gas." Didn't work. So I chanced it and limped into Las Vegas. The repair shop there informed me that I had two blown fuel injectors and I was only running on two cylinders. BLEAH!!!!
This is also why I try to stay away from E-85 and other bogus crap because it does nasty things to older engines. IMHO, that's part of the conspiracy. Newer engines can handle the corrosive nature of ethanol but older ones can get destroyed. Which is half of what they want. They want you to buy ethanol to prop up farmers meanwhile it destroys your old car so you have to go out and buy a new one thus propping up the auto industry. Damn, that's almost believable.
"How much water needs to leak into an underground tank before it damages cars, I wonder?"
About 350 gallons (water is heavier than gasoline, so it stays at the bottom up 'till 350 gallons). Most states require electronic monitors that monitor water among other things and sound an alarm, and they create monthly/yearly reports that has to submitted to the state's environmental agency. Newer equipment is also monitored by third party by phone line.
People often complain that station owner is purposely adding water to their fuel, no sane station owner will ever do that. It just doesn't work to their advantage. But that doesn't mean that some of the non-branded don't do funny stuff with their fuel, you always get what you paid for.
@RogueWarrior: Note to you: Skip all grades of gas except for the grade your owner's manual specifically calls for. It's a proven fact that there's absolutely no reason to add higher octane gas to a vehicle which doesn't require it. Higher octane gas will burn faster in engines that aren't tuned to adapt to it. Also, all the major gas companies add the same amount of additives to all grades of gasoline, so if you're buying the pricier gas for that factor, it's a waste. Unless you're driving a high performance vehicle, save your money.
@Julius_Seizure: this works except for when the harbor freakishly freezes over and the gas stations haven't gotten their regular unleaded delivery...
@RogueWarrior: That makes no sense. Mid-grade gets used the least therefore has more water? At that rate some stations will eventually have nothing but water in their tanks and the gasoline will be over flowing from the top.
@usern4me: Since my dad and uncle have been in the service station repair business all my life that figure wouldn't necessarily be accurate since the tanks can come in different sizes.
But if they cared to check it takes about 10 minutes to check the tanks for gas even if they do not have monitoring.
Stations that do not have monitor will sometimes need to check the amount of gas that is left in that process they can add a "water detector" (Im sure there is a technical name) that is a cream type stuff that changes color in the presence of water.
I worked at a gas station for a while. During rainy season we would go out with a little pump and drink the resiviour near the fuel inlets. If you skipped a month here or there you could easilly pool enough water into those to get above the inlet and into the tank.
I'm less worried at the idea of water leaking into the underground tank and more worried about the other way around.
An even worse situation happened a few years ago at the gas station where I work... a delivery guy accidentally put diesel in an unleaded tank.
I didn't work there when that happened, so I have no idea what happened as a result.
Having worked (in my younger days) at a gas station in the midwest, where we get plenty of floods, I can confirm that the station owner is responsible for keeping the tank covers clear of water.
That said, we would expect the driver of the fuel delivery truck to alert us if we didn't clear them (the fill holes) enough. A few gallons of drain-off water isn't going to negatively affect a 350 gallon tank. To get to where it does (affect a whole tank, and the engines of the customers) you have to be literally standing in knee-deep water when you pull the cover. There is no way a driver, employee, or manager can think that's OK.
As said above, kudos to the station owner for taking responsibility. And un-kudos to the tanker driver, he needs to be re-educated as to what he does for a living.
Same thing was happening in Delaware last month, Valero was properly cleaning tanks when they switched to the summer blend. Gas station owners were letting people get gas and seeing who broke down. They fixed the people's car, but only after knowingly selling them bad product.
Other bogus crap? E-85 is designed to be burned in new cars labeled for E-85 only. If anyone puts E-85 in an older car they are asking for trouble. Unless you drive a new car which was designed to burn E-85 you should never use it. There is no conspiracy. If you can't follow directions you deserve to have a ruined engine.
@John Ernst: If you've studied Ethanol at all, you'd realise it's a terrible fuel substitute. Especially corn ethanol. Between the energy needed to produce it to the hydrophilic nature, it's just a political push with bad science behind it. FWIW, Ethanol's so hydrophilic that it can't be sent in traditional pipelines. E85 still has 15-25% regular gasoline in it. That alone should tell you there's a problem there.
Butanol would have been a better fuel, but that would require more refining/processing. If we're going to be doing the corn thing, biodiesel's a better option.
@Julius_Seizure: Premium isn't only required for performance vehicles. I remember seeing somewhere that the Mini Cooper and/or smartForTwo require premium. Though you may or may not consider the Mini "performance," the smart (with the exception being the Brabus trim model) is certainly not a performance vehicle.
I tried to find the fuel efficiency ratings on their websites but only came up with MPG figures. It's almost 6am here and I don't feel like digging further.
@Nicholas Todor: Car wouldn't run. Diesel cannot ignite in gasoline engine. More than likely, he would have to have the fuel tank, lines, and injectors dropped out of the car cleaned out.
@salvatorecondegni: Yep. My '00 Saab 9-3 is tuned for 93 octane. It's not *required* but I've found that if I put anything less in it the engine starts to knock a little bit and my fuel efficiency decreases so I spring the extra few bucks for super.
@FLConsumer: We won't be doing the corn thing. The economics just aren't in it. If we do biodiesel, it's going to be algae and rapeseed/canola.
@salvatorecondegni: Actually, it might. Depends how much regular fuel there is. Seen cars that have had that happen. If there's more than a quarter-tank of fuel, it'll look like a member of the Red Arrows/Blue Angels - you'll have a thick smoke trail following you. (thats often how the smoke trail in stuntplanes are done - diesel on the exhaust)
@Julius_Seizure:
Actually, higher octance gas is less flammable than the low octanes in order to prevent pre-detonation in high compression engines. So it actually burns slower.
Can still cause damage - because the gasoline is still burning when the engine isn't designed for it. It can burn the injectors.
The other stuff is true.
@salvatorecondegni: The reason for the smart needing premium gasoline is that it's supposed to be a 'maximum mpg' vehicle. A high compression engine can be tuned to provide either more power or more efficiency for it's size(by a few percentage points). By jacking up the compression ratio, the Smart can get by with a smaller and slightly more efficient engine. In return, you need premium.
It might not be a performance car, but it is a 'performance' engine.
@RogueWarrior:
As John Ernst said, it doesn't matter WHEN your vehicle was produced, E85 is only for 'flex-fuel' vehicles. You might be thinking about E10, and even vehicles from the '70s are supposed to handle that just fine. Heck, they sold conversion kits for Model-T cars back in the day to run them on E100(pure ethanol).
FLConsumer, the reason for E85 being not pure is so people don't go drinking it and to improve it's detonation a bit. Pure ethanol burns good, but it's tough to get it to burn fast enough.
But I agree that it's not that great. I'd prefer the algae cultured gasoline analog I've read about - you'd grow it in sea-water filled trays in the desert.
Note to self, buy gas before driving to Baltimore this weekend.
Leak around the seals? Apparently it's never rained in Maryland before.
@Andrew Norton: Yeah, but it seriously screw up the engine.
Gasoline in a diesel engine, on the other hand, won't run it, but won't cause damage either. You'll just need to have enough diesel in the tank to run the car and the engine will burn it through.
Diesel are unbreakable.
@salvatorecondegni: It's not so much performance, as engine style. US engines are generally lower compression. 'Premium' (91 AKI) in the US, is the standard fuel in the UK, and a 'super plus' gives 93 AKI (Anti Knock Index - which is how US fuel is labeled) equiv.
@fatetwister64: It's been raining like crazy in the part of the country where this story takes place (I live in DC; the gas station's in Baltimore). We've had something like 250% of our normal rainfall for the last couple of months, so you could get a month's worth of water in a week.
@FLConsumer: This isn't about the efficiency of ethanol. Everyone knows it's crap. This is about someone basically calling ethanol bad because it kills cars not meant for it. I also assume he would be saying the same thing about diesel if the pump nozzle was small enough to fit.
Basically RogueWarrior doesn't understand that a car that runs on gasoline can only use gasoline. He basically has no idea was E85 is. He probably has even ruined a few cars and blamed E85 rather than his own ignorance.
@RogueWarrior: Mid grade is usually a mix between premium and regular. If there's water in either tank your going to have it in your fuel system. This is one of the reasons I stick to reputable chain stores when fueling my Mercedes and my Porsche. A bad tank of fuel would result in a shocking repair bill for the small station owner.
I worked at a gas station for 3 years when I was in college. This stuff happens.
The trucking company we used forgot to lock the cap to the underground tank at one of our locations once, rainwater got in and a bunch of cars were damaged. One of the drivers told me once that he put diesel in an unleaded tank on a few occasions.
The question at the end of the day should be was it intentional? Most of the time it isn't, the station will pay for the repairs and take care of the customer with minimal disruption.
This is completely off topic, but does anyone else think it's odd that there hasn't been a single new post all day?
@Andrew Norton: uh, US fuel is labeled based on Octane ratings... take a look at the pump next time you fuel up in the US.
Insurance or not, big points for the owner to jump on fixing all damaged engines caused by that problem. I can think of a dozen ways the responsibility could be deflected.