My In-Laws Won't Stop Using A Converter Box On Their New LCD TV
Even after the DTV switch, converter-box drama persists. Reader Bob is concerned that his in-laws were oversold on a converter box for their brand new TV.
Bob says:
They were buying a TV for a new RV and bought a DTV converter box. I told them after they got it that they shouldn't need a converter because the TV (an LCD) was new. I unhooked the converter box and the TV found the new digital stations fine. They are in a poor reception area where they only get a couple of channels, but the digital ones were very clear.
They still don't quite believe they don't need the converter. I wonder how many people were over-sold the converter boxes. I did a fair amount of searching and couldn't really find much (although there was a glut of general information) about what happens when a converter box is hooked to a new TV. I'm guessing it won't work too great, but I'd like to see a more in depth analysis.
Is this one of those questions bored physics teachers like to ask? Like, "If you go the speed of light and turn a flashlight on, what happens?" (Answer, here.)
Well, we're not experts or anything, but our best guess is that the box would do its job and convert the signal into something an analog TV would understand. Since your in-law's TV understands analog signals as well as digital ones — it probably depends on the quality of the converter box.
Consumer Reports tested a bunch of DTV converter boxes and found that the quality of the image varied. Some produced almost DVD quality images — others were just about the same as your typical analog broadcast.
Anyway, does it really matter? Your in-laws don't need the box — so tell them to get rid of it.
(Photo:vidaarctique)
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Comments:
Is the OP saying hooking up a converter box to a DTV won't work too well? It would do the same darn thing, the only difference is WITHOUT the box you can use the tuner controls (e.g. channel up/down) on the TV. WITH the box connected, you turn the TV to channel 3 (or Input or whatever) and use the controls on the converter box. But yes, they were clearly oversold.
It is fair to note that my TV downstairs does get slightly better reception with the converter box than my TV upstairs that has a DTV tuner built in. But I've always believed it's because there's less distance of cable to the antenna than the one upstairs (I have a big antenna set up in the garage that is hooked up to the coax running through the house so all TVs share the one antenna).
If I've learned one thing in life, it's that as long as no one is in any danger, let old people do their asinine things.
For example, even though my in-laws only have basic analog cable and their HDTV cannot receive QAM channels, they are completely convinced they are getting true HD programming. My dad thinks stretching out 4:3 content to a 16:9 screen makes it look "better."
Either way, it's none of my business. And if your in-laws are happy using a DTV converter for no good reason, let them be happy. You'll sleep better without the aggravation of trying to tell them otherwise.
"Is this one of those questions bored physics teachers like to ask? Like, "If you go the speed of light and turn a flashlight on, what happens?" (Answer, here.) "
That didn't answer it at all, it just said it wouldn't happen and told you what would happen near the speed of light.
i feel deceived.
@GMFish: I have a friend (who is not a senior citizen) who was absolutely convinced that after the digital switch his non-HD analog TV would suddenly become an HD set. We argued over this until we almost came to blows, and I finally said, "Fine, enjoy your new HD TV."
I wonder if he's figured it out yet?
You can use a DTV converter box on a DTV set, and you will get a picture. However, obviously, you are doing something pointless - and getting a degraded picture as well. The DTV signals in my area run in the 720p and 1080i resolutions, so the DTV converter is converting those signals to 480i. The DTV set is then taking that 480i signal from the DTV converter and upscaling it up to 720p/1080p (which ever is the native resolution of the set). This results in a degraded picture quality.
You can see the effect in Photoshop. Take a digital photo, and scale it to have a height of 1080 pixels. Then, scale it down to a height of 480 pixels. The image will look ok still. Now, scale it back up to 1080 pixels. Not pretty, is it? Especially when compared to the original 1080 version.
Most people at "TV sitting distance" probably wouldn't notice a difference, unless viewing the same programing on a similarly calibrated set not going through the convert box. If your in-laws are happy living with an unnecessarily downgraded picture, let them. Ignorance is bliss.
As a physics teacher, I usually say to those questions (which come from students not physicists) "If you want to make up your own universe, go ahead and make up any rule you want to."
Well, using a converter box on a digital tuner ready flat panel would degrade the over all quality of the picture foremost since most likely the converter box is hooked up using a coax or composite (yellow) video cable, which High definition broadcasts cant use (its just a down-sampled image). So you wouldn't be getting the most out of a new tv. Using a newer tv's built in tuner for off air, as it would most likely be HD, would have much greater results for HD programming as those are only receivable on digital stations.
After a 2 year stint as a custom a/v installer and the amount of misinformation that was put out for the conversion I'd put money on that there is plenty of confusion.
Convincing your in-laws that they're confused about anything technilogical is impossible. I say give up now.
I don't believe any of the government subsidized converters were capable of outputting anything higher than 480i (SD) signals. So these boxes wouldn't work ideally for one of the HD Ready 720p or 1080i televisions sold a few years back that didn't have a tuner.
This also means that any HD signal received by the converter box is converted to analog SD prior to being passed to the new (presumably HD) LCD TV.
Get rid of it, it is degrading the picture, sucking more power, and adding a remote to the mix.
@GMFish: Hear hear! My mom still *tapes* her favorite shows with her trusty VCR, even theough she has a digital DVR cable box hooked up to the TV. It works for her, she's happy, so who cares?
On the other hand if the box isn't hurting them and they don't feel comfortable without it; why does it matter if they use it?
They may ask for your advice but they will not often take it... just like many of our elders.
@GMFish:
No, the answer is the light wouldn't move relative to the person holding the flashlight. They wouldn't notice that it isn't actually going forward, though, because time has stopped. But if, somehow, they *could* notice it, the light itself wouldn't exist since it would never make it to their eyes.
Well, that's how I remember explaining it in my high school physics presentation. Of course, I failed high school physics twice. Third time (and a different teacher) was the charm!
Tell them the extra box is cutting into their electrical bills unnecessarily. Sure, it's not really cutting into them by *much*, but leave that part out. ;^)
Even the technologically ignorant know when something is hitting them in the pocketbook.
i think some people just don't care, as long as the picture is half way viewable and so is the sound. my sister told me she can't tell the difference between SD and 1080i broadcasts on her TV. i'm like, are you blind?
@bnelson333: You might be right.
I would suggest buying an in-line amplifier and putting it as close to the antenna as you can, before any cable splices, splits, or barrel connections (otherwise you'll also be amplifying the noise that gets introduced on these junctions).
You know... if it's that big a deal to you. They're pretty cheap and you can always return it.
@John: Not that the OP's in laws are like this (I don't know them so they might be like this) but when people, regardless of age, won't listen to someone who knows the correct answer and insists that THEY know what's going on, it opens these people up to believing all kinds of crap - from the exercise machines they claim to make you lose weight through agitation to Acai berry drinks - people who can't get it through their skulls that they might be wrong can very quickly head down a slope toward believing other things that have no basis.
It would receive the digital signal, convert it to analog, send it through analog cables to the TV, then ... I guess the TV would digitize it? I don't know about that last part.
But it'd be equivalent to plugging a CD player into a tape recorder, recording the CD onto a tape, then listening to it. Or maybe playing the tape into a recording program on your computer and listening to it then ... it all depends on whether or not that last digitization step is there.
The point is that the signal is converted to analog, when it doesn't need to be.
@bnelson333: If you buy a new LCD HDTV, whether it's 720p or 1080p, and are duped into buying a DTV converter that only outputs a SDTV signal, such as composite or s-video, then the tuner in your LCD would produce better picture quality. You would be worse off with a SDTV tuner. The OP doesn't indicate whether SD vs HD is an issue here, but that's how I read it.
Hmm, I seem to have a problem with my LCD TV. I bought one of these Toshiba 37 inch TV's at markdown. When trying to scan using the TV's tuner, it picked up no channels (actually it picked them up but perpetually indicated that there was no signal) . When I hooked up my DTV box, it worked. A part of me wants to ask Toshiba for a replacement. But another part of me is too lazy to care....
Dod anyone have a similar experience? Would it be worth the hassle to try an antenna specifically for DTV broadcasts?
My mother's husband (I refuse to call him my step-father!) can't seem to understand that his TVs that are connected to cable were unaffected by the digital switch. They had a cable outage and he kept insisting it was because of the switch. After correcting him a couple of times, I just let it go. My head was starting to hurt.
As some have mentioned, it is unlikely that the converter box is capable of providing anything above 480i (Standard Def), however, this may not matter as you indicated that the TV will be installed in an RV, so I assume that it will be on the small side, and therefore probably not HD. If the TV is SD, tell them they don't need the box and let it drop. If the TV is HD, tell them they don't need the box, they are degrading their picture quality, and then let it drop. P.S. You are alse free to complain to your wife if she agrees that they are being silly...but don't blame me if you need to sleep on the couch :-)
I HATE DTV - if there's a drop of rain, then I can't watch tv because the signal sucks. I tried pointing the motherf*ckin' antenna in different directions, to no avail. If the government is going to force us to do something, then why not f*cking fix the problems. I am sure I am not alone on this one...
@ageekymom: Having dealt with my mother, who for some time believed nearly everything she read in magazines and watched in health shows, I wonder: are some people naive or stupid? Not saying your mother's husband is since I don't know, but is it that I'm just very cynical and approach with healthy skepticism or are people really making to weird and crazy stories for themselves? I mean...at one point I was being told that there were these vitamins that could give you all the nutrition you needed..but it's all true she saw a special on it in a magazine! No lies, only complete strangers who think you deserve the fountain of youth (for $40 a box).
@GMFish: The point is that some TV salesman took advantage of a couple without a lot of technical knowledge to turn a buck.
I work at Best Buy, in the home theater department, and I spent the last year telling people they didn't need the converter box.
"But I have this new tv and I don't have cable, so I need a box right?"
"The commercial on ESPN says I need a box, so I need a box so I can watch ESPN right?"
"I have direct TV on my 50" plasma, I need a box too!"
There have been so many people of all sorts comming in and wanting a converter box. For the longest time I would ask 3 simple questions before I would even tell them where they were.
"Do you pay for cable/satelite?"
"Do you have a flat panel tv?"
"Are you buying a new tv before Feb/June?"
If they said yes to any of those questions I would do my best to convice them that they didn't need the box. And I would say that I failed about 20% of the time. People would demand to buy one, even when they obviously didn't need it.
Eventually I gave up and for the last 2 months I have just pointed to them when asked.
To the previous questions of quality, the difference is huge between the quality of the built in tuner and the converter tuner. especially when you hook the converter up by composite cable instead of with coax.
Assuming that it's possible to travel at the speed of light and operate a working flashlight, then the flashlight you are holding will also be travelling at the speed of light. So it will appear to you that you switched a flashlight on - normally.
The light may or may not exhibit unusual properties but no different from the unusual properties exhibited by anything else. ie, by normal, I mean in relative terms.
wish I had an HD capable TV so i wouldn't be messing about with converter boxes - aside from the TV i have hooked to directv i'm just waiting for the balun i ordered from dealextreme to arrive [since i don't feel like dealing with radio shack] so i can hook THIS up:
@volenti non fit injuria:
The government didn't force you to do anything. They only forced the broadcasters to change. You did not have to.
TV is not a right. It is amazing that people are so upset about a change in a product that they received for free for 60 years.
@bnelson333: It's conceivable that the quality of the tuner in the converter is worse than the one in the TV, which would actually degrade quality.
Also, the converter box modulates digital into analog. If the analog tuner in the TV is lower quality than the digital tuner in the TV, then even if the digital tuner in the converter box is great, you get degraded signal.
My mom went to sam's and bought an LCD HD tv because of the switch, but she has directv, and I couldn't convince her that she didn't need it. Now she thinks that she is watching HD TV with an SD reciever on satellite, my dad and I just let her think that she is, it is easier than arguing.
Same sort of ting happened with my cousin, they sold him a HD capable antenna when his regular old antenna would work fine with his EDTV.
you think THAT'S bad? I was in line at a Comcast service center when I saw a woman getting about 6 new HD cable boxes, which from her conversation I gathered were for television at her business. She asked the clerk if that's what she needed for the DTV transition, and the guy nodded yes. So this lady is going to be paying $10 extra a month on her cable bill for something she totally, absolutely didn't need.
@krom: no, you WILL get a degraded signal, the only question is how perceptibly. You're converting digital to analog back to a digital signal (the only way that the electronics in the TV can display anything), and you are bound to lose at least a small measure of quality.
@morganlh85:
Not true comcast is killing off analog cable and you will need a box and most of the HD on comcast is NOT IN Clear qam and you need a comcast box and or a cable card to get it.
@cyborg5001:
"Do you pay for cable/satelite?"
So did anyone ever reply that the didn't pay for cable...that they stole it from their neighbor?
I turned off my DirecTV box to see if my 73" Toshiba TV would pick up the local channels and got nothing but snow. I didn't try unhooking the box, but I thought my TV had a tuner too.
@HogwartsAlum: my sister recently got married. until she saw it, that belonged to my new brother in law. she took it straight from her car to my car without letting it in her house. it's now a challenge [read: pointless hobby] for me to make it get regular tv. and as soon as i finish that i'm going to hook it to the most appropriate thing i own for a bakelite black and white tv: pong.
this is my 'real' tv:
[www.flickr.com]
We have an old tv and before hooking it up to the converter box, I was able to set my VCR on timer recording and it would work. Now that we're hooked up to the box, this won't work. We have to manually start the recording. Is there anything I can do to solve this problem? Thanks.
@Mondoz: Here is what will happen:
1. You will not get anything in high definition.
2. You will get some line noise from the conversion of the signal to an analog RF signal.
3. You will get some chroma noise from the signal being converted to a composite (the worst form of baseband signal), which is a requirement for an analog RF signal to be generated.
4. You may get some wonky aspect-ratio issues.
It will work, though.
@GMFish:
Same experience here. A friend who thought he had "HD" because his picture was now stretched out took a look at my correctly set up HDTV and proclaimed it looked so good because it was in 3D.
I'm not clear why using an external DTV tuner results in a degraded picture -- do the inexpensive tuners not have digital outputs?
I have a television with a built-in digital tuner, but use an external DTV tuner anyway. If I use the TV's built-in tuner and connect digital audio back to my receiver, the sound is slightly out of sync. If I connect the digital tuner to my receiver, and the receiver to the TV, everything is in sync and switching between sources is simpler.
@Mecharine: I have a Philips LCD TV that gets much worse reception than the digital converter box that I got for an ancient tube TV in my kids playroom -- one of those weird brands that doesn't show up in the list of brands for programmable remotes.
I actually go so fed up with the Philips dropping channels that the kids' TV got just fine that I got a converter box for it. Picture's not as good but at least I can get the channels reliably.
And this is with an antenna, amplifier, and the shortest possible cable run going to the Philips but a long convoluted cable run going to the kids' TV.
@Glenn Crosse: Hell, we still receive TV for free, as in no monthly fee for service. Yes, one has to have the appropriate equipment, but that was always the case.
@HogwartsAlum: You need an antenna! Try some rabbit ears. Also you need to be located inside a major city to get anything without a big outdoor antenna.
This sounds like something that could be experimented with while wearing a certain blue lab coat...