Big Airlines Cramming Even More Seats Into Coach
If you're looking for the most legroom, look to the low fare carriers because the big airlines are cramming more and more seats into coach, says the WSJ.
Apparently, American Airlines has just added (brace yourself) 12 additional seats to new 737-800 jets from Boeing. How are the airlines able to cram more seats into the same amount of space? They're removing galleys, ordering slimmer seats, and yes... squeezing the rows closer together.
What's interesting is that the seat squeeze means discount airlines now offer more generous seat-pitch then their competitors. You get at least 34 inches of space in each row of a JetBlue A320, including the seat (the seat pitch, in industry parlance). At Southwest, seat pitch is 32-33 inches in 737s. But at American, United, Delta, Continental and others, seat-pitch is standardizing down at 31 inches in domestic coach.
Something to think about when you're booking travel.
Seat Squeeze: Low-Cost Carriers Now Offer The Most Legroom [WSJ]
(Photo:JohnKit)
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Comments:
The reasoning again why the big airlines are worth the money?
@petermv: It's not exactly about worth...sometimes you have to fly a big carrier. And JetBlue and AirTran are hardly tiny carriers.
Ah yes, another step toward going the way of the dodo for these legacy carriers.
Yet another reason why Southwest is my airline of choice.
It won't be so bad if you have a knee defender. I'm tall, it sucks, but it's tolerable. The "discount" carriers don't fly to my destinations, unfortunately.
They'd just get a bailout, and then you would own upto 60% of some worthless airline.
I'm just waiting for them to ditch seats in favor of benches, or even better, standing room only. Ooooh maybe they'll just start placing us in bags and piling us on the floor, or maybe they can just start cramming us into train cars, then after we all suffocate and/or die of exhaustion they can strip down our bodies and take our valuables (since they already seem adept at rummaging through our luggage).
I bet the airlines would sacrifice the lavatory for new seats if they could.
The reclining in front of you is the worst if you're tall.
I hate how if someone does the full recline in front of me I am basically forced to recline myself in order to have any space at all (my knees being uncomfortable is unavoidable). It makes me feel like an asshole, but there's basically no choice when they cram the seats in so close. I'll gladly pay for the upgrades like United Economy Plus to get some more room, but unfortunately that isn't available on every aircraft and airline. First class is just too expensive to justify.
@I Love New Jersey: Will never happen. You think the auto bailout is bad? United, American, Delta, et al have been getting continuously bailed out for YEARS.
@pecan 3.14159265: Kinda depends on the situation. My wife and I are flying from Salt Lake City to New York later this month on Delta. Southwest would've been my preference but it would've involved a lot more travel time due to plane changes. This way it's a direct flight with only a few hours in the air - plus my mother-in-law bought the tickets with frequent flier miles, so I really can't complain.
I generally fly Southwest, but we also got an Amex gold card with Delta FF miles - partially because we like the extra benefits from the Amex and the fact that we get something out of spending money we were going to spend anyway. We're the customers that they hate - we put everything on the Amex, but we treat it like our debit cards. Every time we put something on the Amex money gets transferred into an ING account that we use to pay our bills. Then we pay of the card in full every month, don't pay any interest, and get airline miles for our trouble.
@WarOtter: It's just a matter of time before we're all tossed into little cubicles like the ones in Fifth Element. They'll turn on the gas before takeoff and we'll all sleep through the flight.
If everyone is asleep, there's no potential threats, no one to serve meals or drinks to...
We're all just cattle to them anyway.
@ironchef: Nah, they'd never be that stoopid. That's crazy-talk. What's next, suggesting ONE lav for an entire jumbo jet?!
That's so glaringly absurd I'm surprised my colleagues don't cart me away for even typing it.
(Damn you, Iron Chef, you beat me to it)
If we can fly Predator drones in Afghanistan from control centers in Kansas, why can't the airlines do this and expand the seating through the flight deck as well?
I should patent this idea.
@ironchef: I believe RyanAir was threatening to do that:
Direct quote: "We are flying aircraft on an average flight time of one hour around Europe," Mr. O'Leary argued, "what the hell do we need three toilets for?"
@johnva: This makes me wonder whether there is a way that carriers can modify how they seat people. I'm short, and I never recline my seat to the point where I might as well say hi to you. Wouldn't it make things better and easier for me if the airline were to pair me with a row of similar people? Then the row behind me could be filled with tall people who dislike people who recline their seats too much.
That's why I always go for foreign airlines for my international flights (which are around 8-15 hrs)
better seats, more leg room, better movies with personal DVRs, better food, free booze ...
I'm wondering if tall people or those with disabilities that don't allow them to squish like sardines (not obesity, but people with leg or knee problems) are going to sue the airlines for discrimination since they'll be forced to buy higher priced seats if this trend continues.
I'm a pretty average height for the US population at 5'8", but I'm disproportionately leggy (I have like the shortest waist of anyone ever, pants shopping is a nightmare) and have been really spoiled by four years of mostly flying only JetBlue. I had to get in a non-JetBlue plane last year for the first time since 2004, and still thank every deity that that flight was only two hours. By the time I got off, one of my knees was bruised up and my other leg had long since fallen asleep. (It doesn't help that I was in a middle seat, and the two men on either side of me were both "lava balls" types who didn't seem to understand that you don't need five feet in-between your feet.)
I'm just glad that most of my travel is in between metro DC and metro Boston, and I have my choice of JetBlue and Southwest whenever I want them.
"...ordering slimmer seats..."
Question is - slimmer thickness of the chairs/padding or actual seat space? If it's slimmer seats themselves that's fine, but if it's slimmer seat space this is going to have a negative impact on the overweight population. I'm fat (hey, I admit it) but I can still fit into any airline seat there is. But if the actual seat spacing is notched down (width of the seat cushion) I'm !@#$'d.
Granted, thanks to Consumerist's recent posting of 344pounds.com, that "overweight" problem has been going away slowly for me. :) It gave me the inspiration to get off my ass.
It'd make sense only if the legacy carriers also unveiled a new race of 3' high humans that could fit into these seats.
Or chainsaw-wielding gate agents offering to trim fliers of unnecessary leg length.
...and the Greyhound-ization of the airlines continues... I and my family live in San Diego and my wife's family is in St. Louis, AA is the only airline with non-stop flights between the two. But with bag fees and now this I think we will fly Southwest next time.
When it's all over it'll be true cattle-class for everyone but the wealthy who pay for first-class. The middle-class has lost access to credit and jobs and will now lose access to services they have been used to as companies adjust to the fact that the American consumer is scared and broke without Daddy Visa and Uncle Equity Line. 3rd-world here we come...
I've always thought that it would be an interesting idea to take an existing 737, raise the normal passenger seating area a bit, ditch the below-cargo hold, use this space to create a sub-coach level seating area, sort of like Steerage, and almost double the seating capacity of the plane. Of course, everyone would be required to carry-on all luggage, but for commuter segments of air travel, it could be feasible. Of course, you would have to have evacuation exits for the lower level, and get FAA approval, but imagine almost doubling a plane's capacity with only a bit more fuel required for the added passenger weight.
What am I not considering?
Ugh, wonderful. My poor father is 6'8" and my brother isn't much better at 6'4". Every time I've flown transatlantic with them it's been a misery - they can barely move, and inevitably some asshole in front of them pushes back as hard as they can to try and...I don't know, break their legs, maybe? Last time my dad even paid extra for a bulkhead seat, but - surprise! - when we got to the airport, it wasn't available.
@Mondoz: You know, I'd actually prefer that, especially for longer flights.
The last long flight I took (15 hours) was completely and utterly miserable. The seats were cramped, I was freezing, people smelled bad, and the movie was Solaris. Oh, and because we couldn't all get seats close together, I wasn't really able to get help keeping my son, who was not at all tired, entertained. Now, he didn't bother anyone, but damn I was exhausted making sure that didn't happen.
Sleeping the whole way in a little tube? Niiiiiice...
Can we go back to air travel being a luxury? Please? Seriously, I'm 6'1". Maybe I should just suck it up and fly first class.
@johnva: I don't know, though. I go crazy if I can't recline the seat once the lights go off. Sitting at 90 degrees for four hours would drive me to madness, or drink.
Well, like I need an excuse to drink...
@youbastid: Yup. Lackadaisical weapon screening policies by the carriers pre-9/11 allowing box-cutters in, then enjoy the (guess which party controlled Congress and the Executive branch, g'head, I dare you) immunity from lawsuits from the victims' survivors and phat billion-dollar giveaways to the airlines.
Yup. Coddling for poorly-run mega-corps, "Free Market" for everyone else. The Conservative way!
@petermv: They've never been worth the money. They fill a niche in travel that will always be like this until the invention of 1. Safe Dependable VTOL flying cars, and 2. Automated piloting.
I need more SHOULDER room. If your knees do not hit the seat in front of you (ie you are not abnormally tall), one can still extend their legs to about 30 degrees from straight. Extra "legroom" does not change that.
@Berz: maybe it's just the dates or places I travel but I have never found a deal on southwest that frontier couldn't beat, and thats a layover flight vs. non-stop
I wonder when PETA will spin off and form PETP. Animals that PETA says are living in cramped conditions will soon have more room than people will have in airplanes. I am beginning to think that locking myself in a pet container and traveling in baggage would be more comfortable.
I always look behind me before I recline and if it's a large person, I don't bother. If they appear short, I ask if they mind if I recline. After the brief shock, they almost always say yes and thank me profusely for asking.
Common courtesy goes a long way people.
@robotrousers: I'm 6'1" as well, and I can say first class is worth it. I don't even consider myself to be particularly tall, but I can't fit on Southwest flights now as it is... and those little ember air commuter jets... just forget about it. And when I shift around, I feel sorry for the person sitting in front of me, because I know they can feel my knees going into their seat backs-- especially when they recline. With thinner seats this problem could be worse!
I guess I'm going to need to take up yoga just to be able to fly, since I only fly first class for work or when I get the bump up upgrade (fortunately because I fly so often it routinely happens, but I've been flying much less this year and may lose my status. I've already been demoted from Executive Platinum to Platinum).
@Scuba Steve: I don't think that niche will go away then. Flying cars, if ever invented, will be strictly a rich man's game. Have you seen what avgas costs, and how much fuel a small airplane burns? It makes a Hummer H1 look like a Prius.
I'm surprised that nobody has spoken up for the elite programs of the legacy carriers. I fly AA because I get upgraded, and when I don't get an upgrade I almost always sit in the exit row where there's almost 40" of pitch. AA has more powerports throughout coach than any other airline except Virgin America. Southwest and Jet Blue don't have power ports, and you can't reserve a seat on SW or an exit row on Jet Blue without paying more, or any seat at all on SW. Plus with my miles I can fly on any international carrier in their alliance.
@xthexlanternx: Duh, you haven't read The Secret. Just visualize yourself with shorter legs, and it will be. If you can't make it happen, you're just not visualizing hard enough.
Ye of little faith.
Wasn't one of the advantages of AA being the seat pitch was wider than the other airlines?
Last trip I took with the family, we just rented a Van and drove. It took 3-4 times longer. The upside was we would have to rent a vehicle anyway, we had much more room, and could stop at interesting places. We easily saved $2K by channeling our inner Clark Griswold.
JetBlue actually removed seats from their planes a few years ago and were able to save money by doing so. The reduced headcount allowed them to eliminate a flight attendant (salary), reduce weight (fuel) and increase leg room.
@edwardso: I guess the first problem you run into is when people want to sit together, and are different heights and body sizes.
@weave: Sadly I have never sat behind you, but for all the people who have, THANK YOU. More people like you would making flying much more pleasant.
What a great motivation in time for bathing suit weather! Yay AA!