Amazon Tries To Clarify Download Limits For Kindle Books, Doesn't Quite Succeed
Dan, the Kindle owner who last week found that some of the books he'd purchased were no longer available to download due to unspecified limitations set by the publisher, spoke to more Amazon reps on Sunday. They clarified the DRM policy. Well, sort of.
To sum up his conversations with Amazon:
- You can download a book an unlimited number of times.
- In most cases, you can download the book to 6 devices. If you need to download it to more devices than that, you can request that Amazon release additional licenses for the book. According to Dan's recap of the conversation, Amazon promises nothing. But you can ask and they'll probably oblige.
- Then there are the "other" cases, where a publisher sets the number of simultaneous devices to a lower limit. The following is from an email Dan received from Amazon's customer support: "Publishers choose whether they apply DRM to their content and thus determine how many copies of each title can be downloaded to different Kindle devices at the same time."
- There's no way to find out this limit prior to buying the book.
- Releasing new licenses requires that all of your current device licenses be removed, so you'll have to start over and re-download them to all devices again. (We don't know how that affects things like bookmarks or notes.)
- Dan adds, "According to the customer rep, there is a project to try to get that information available to the customer but it's not yet available."
So why doesn't Amazon have a publicly stated policy on this already, a year and a half after the first Kindle hit the market? Why, because they're a mom-and-pop shop with mostly friends and family manning the phones, we imagine. Oh wait, that's not right.
Dan wanted to know the same thing:
I pushed a little bit harder, perhaps a little too hard, and said, "I spoke with three customer service representatives before you, and every one of them gave me the wrong information. That's not a training glitch, that's people at Amazon not having any clue about the DRM policy and that's a problem."
He responded, "We face new situations every day and quite frankly we've never run into this problem before, but now that you've raised the issue please know that it will be addressed directly."
Jeez, Amazon! The Kindle is your most-hyped business venture in the past 18 months—you've had Bezos on Oprah and The Daily Show to hawk it as a game changer. Every publisher is worrying about the consequences of your device if it really takes off among readers. Apple paved the way for you half a decade ago with DRM on the iTMS. And yet you still don't have a formal policy for how to manage DRM issues?
See, this is the problem with Amazon's Kindle—even they can't tell their customers exactly how the DRM works. They blame the publishers, but we're not sure that publishers have ever been given adequate information either. (We know the press hasn't.) From what we understand, publishers are contractually forbidden to share any information about their licensing agreements with Amazon, which creates a convenient way for Amazon to redirect all inquiries into a black hole of "it's the publisher's fault."
The solution is pretty simple: establish a set number of devices as a minimum and share that with customers. We should know the extent of any device limitations before we buy ebooks. Implement a full-disclosure policy for rights issues—for example, a box on every Amazon ebook listing that's similar to a nutrition label. Here's an example for a hypothetical book.
- Text-to-speech disabled
- Up to 6 devices
- 20% of text can be copied to notes
If you're going to restrict customers' rights with DRM and licensing agreements, at least be completely open about it so they can make educated purchases.
"KindleGate: Confusion Abounds Regarding Kindle Download Policy" [Gear Diary]
(Photo: EricaJoy)
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Comments:
Since you do not really own DRM'd material (it can be revoked by the publisher), let's call it what it is: rental. Set up the terms of the rental and state them publicly.
I don't have these problems with, say, books. I buy it, I own it, and if I treat it well, I always will.
I'm as much of a gadget freak as anyone else, but this is ridiculous. Thanks, but no thanks, Amazon.
This is like paying $10 for gasoline, and not being told how much gasoline you received.
It is dishonest to deliberately withhold facts about a product's capacity, limits or measures. And to do so for an artificial and arbitrary limit is flagrantly dishonest.
If this nonsense happened to me, I would think nothing of slapping Amazon with a Massachusetts chapter 93A demand letter. It is an unfair and deceptive act if there ever was one.
@Radi0logy: I don't own one, but a I know several people who do. They like being able to carry a lot of books with them on the go. Say in the several hundreds, something not physically possible with real books.
There is also the ability to bookmark and make notes without actually ruining the book itself.
I don't think I will ever buy one, but I like the idea of being able to have several books on hand in case I want to read something different.
@Radi0logy: A co-worker of mine has one of these. According to her, the text is easier to read than an actual book, it's easier for her to use while on a treadmill, and it's generally more convenient than carry a bunch of books around. She's a pretty avid reader, so I guess I get why it's useful for her. Can't say I'm running out to get one any time soon though.
@Radi0logy: I think it seems kind of cool to have access to a bunch of books in one device. I don't own one, but if the price goes down to maybe around 100 bucks, then I would go out and get it.
What is this world coming to when you give control over a simple thing such as reading to a corporation?
Then for some reason people complain that their rights are being trampled by a corporations desire to make money.
I think it is very important that all DRM, whether on ebooks, software, games, movies etc, should be disclosed before purchase. This is a valuable consumer tool and will build better consumer relations in the long run.
People really do like it when companies are upfront about about their limitations. They may not like what is revealed, but they are happier knowing before hand than to find out afterward.
@AlexJP: "This is like paying $10 for gasoline, and not being told how much gasoline you received."
That analogy only holds if the gas station has the power to, at some unforseen future date, revoke your right to your gas.
@b612markt: This is a surprise to whom? I know this may seem offensive, but smart people get their books off piratebay, read them on their netbooks/etc. Guess what, you can actually find more relevant books this way, they download in seconds, and you don't have DRM. How can you do this at a beach for example? Get a device of your choosing to read with and charge it using solar and some kind of ebook reader program. Cheaper than kindle..
@takes_so_little: I don't agree that my analogy is inappropriate. But even if we accept that DRM is good, wholesome, and welcome, we still are faced with the same issue: The quantity of Kindle devices that can load the content is never disclosed.
@Radi0logy: I'm fascinated by how many people always say they don't get it. I see that statement over and over, and yet it seems like such a simple decision to me. Do you read a lot of books? Want to have a big collection that you take everywhere that doesn't require a bookshelf? You'd probably appreciate an ebook reader then.
It's pretty much the same decision process as moving from individual CDs and a home stereo to a portable MP3 player.
My guess is since reading (usually) takes longer per piece than listening to a song, and since many people only read at home, a lot of people don't feel the comparison applies. But if you read multiple books at once, or like to carry books and magazines and newspapers with you at all times, it makes more sense.
Maybe the Kindle doesn't make sense, but the idea behind it makes sense.
Considering i was going to save and save and save for a kindle for the Text to speech (i am visually impaired) the no TTS on some books killed that. i now have a netbook and continue the task of. (for good books) 1 get used copy of book 2 hit IRC download same book in TXT format (saves time doing the OCR thing) 3. get netbook to read text on the go.
the netbook was cheep and with the screen closed / powerd off it lasts most of a day reading straight. about 5 hrs no wifi 2:30 with wifi/screen on full bright. it's only a 3cell battery.
best part is. books i bother getting are 100% text all i need to know is auther's name and the tytle i want.
I still think the kindel is pretty cool just wont buy one untill thees isues are taken care of.
NFB RULZ!!!
Natinoal Federation of the Blind.
---------------------------------
umm
ya i used to get the books on tape.
i have a walkman sized book on tape player (they run the tape SLOW and use 4 sepret tracks) BUT there bulky and ya loos the blasted tapes ... i prefer text....
or audible.com :p
@Radi0logy: That's fair -- I don't get why "liking it" seems to equate to "fascinated with it," at least here on Consumerist. ;) I like mine, but the only reason I stare at it for hours on end is because I'm, you know, READING.
My wonderful book-loving parents gave me a Kindle this past Christmas; they each have a Kindle, as well, and we share an account on Amazon so we can all read the same books without paying for them more than once or having to wait until someone else is done reading to start. I love the fact that I can carry a good deal of my library with me wherever I go (a large portion of which are public-domain books legally downloaded for free from sites other than Amazon -- so there's no DRM, and did I mention the "free" part?), not buying a physical copy of a book cuts down on clutter in my little condo, and being able to go online to buy a new book or access the web with a very basic browser whenever I want is pretty convenient. Those are some of the main reasons that I like my Kindle.
Why did people love the iPod so much shortly after it came out, and continue to love it today? The iPod was expensive, and buying music from the iTMS involved the dreaded DRM at first, too... although you also had the option to put your own, DRM-less music on it. The Kindle is very similar, but a lot of people here on Consumerist seem to have a hate-boner for it without ever having used or even seen one.
Can you explain that? Are the people that rip on the Kindle the same people who sneer at the iPod? Or do they just not like reading that much?
@AlexJP: I think you misunderstood. I'm saying you were too kind to DRM in your analogy. Your point was good, but you forgot that DRM purveyors can take the product away from you after you've "bought" it.
Why would you want to download the same book 6 times? I don't get it.
@Radi0logy: I want to get one of the larger devices to carry PDFs. i'm not considering $450 (for the large screen size) but would consider it when the price dropped to $200 or $250 in a few years. That said, I'm not biased towards the kindle... any big screen reader will do provided it has been reviewed thoroughly by consumers for problems.
@Radi0logy: My mother bought one. She hadn't been able to read anything more than an US Weekly for two years because her eyesight had degraded to the point that nothing short of holding the book an inch or two from her eyes would resolve the text.
Before her eyesight went bad, she routinely read 15 or 20 books a month.
The Kindle has given her back one of her greatest joys, reading. I know it's easy to make fun of, but it has made an enormous difference in a 65 year old woman's quality of life.
It made my mama happy. I really can't think of any higher praise I can give it.
@Blueskylaw: I'm not in agreement with the situation but that's not remotely what's happening. "Corporations" own the rights to creative material produced by their clients. This has nothing to do with some right to read. You can still read?! If you want 100% control over creative material, write a book. Stop being hysterical.
@Radi0logy: I don't own a Kindle, but I use the Kindle software on my iPhone to read books regularly.
I don't have a ton of room, and I love to read- so buying electronic books means I don't have to clean out my bookshelves so often (I buy physical copies of books I'll read over and over, or for certain authors). It's super convenient (downloading a book takes seconds).
I suppose I could just use the library, but my work hours & library hours don't mesh, and I have a nack for keeping books too long and having to pay too many late fees.
Sure, I wish the books were slightly cheaper (considering there is no physical medium to ship or store). But I just use my cash card rewards points to buy Amazon gift cards and I spend very little in the long run on my Kindle books.
@Cortina: That's beautiful. And a good reason for authors and publishers to not be jerks about the text to speech capacity.
I make fun of the Kindle b/c I don't think it makes sense for MOST consumers. $350-400 for a device + $10/per book, when I can buy used books for $2-7-ish AND resell them? Makes no sense. As a tool to help the elderly and/or disabled, it does seem pretty great.
@Nicole: Yes, you can. I don't know if you can do it on the iPhone, but with the Kindle, you can do it via your computer or via the Amazon Whispernet.
I was going to buy one for my wife. We were going to move to asia, and with her able to read a 300 page book in less then 2 days, i figured it would be an easy way for her to get books and other things to read while we were overseas. Things came up that held us up from buying it and then the news came out that it costs more for books on this then printed books... Yes books that only cost royaltys to sell cost more then books that need to be printed, bound, transported, warehoused, and put on a shelf for resale... go figure. After that it wasnt worth buying it at even 1/4th the price.
@kateblack: I've never paid more than seven bucks and change for a book on Amazon (in fact, quite a few of them have been free, thanks to various promotions), and many of my ebooks are public-domain titles, meaning they're free of cost AND free of DRM. So, you're not automatically paying ten bucks per book.
As to the price of the device itself, keep in mind that that also includes Whispernet for those who live in an area with access to it. I can go online whenever I want without having to search for a wifi hotspot if I feel like downloading a new book or using the basic web browser, and that's free -- or, rather, it's built into the price of the Kindle. That may not be worth it to some people, but it's worth the extra cash to me!
@Cialis Cooper: Because you can download it to multiple devices -- say you have both a Kindle and an iPhone, and you also share your Amazon account with your spouse and your child. Assuming you all want to read the same book, that would involve using up four of the six available licenses.
@Cialis Cooper:
1. Device can hold x books (for ease I'm going to say 10, although we all know device can hold more).
2. User wants an 11th book.
3. User removes one book from device to make room for new book.
4. User finishes new book and wants the old book back.
5. Rinse and repeat.
@AlexJP: More than dishonest, how is this not illegal? We already found out about Comcast's previously hidden caps/throttling, NetFlix's mysterious slow delivery for heavy users, and this, and that's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure. What is it going to take before Congress says enough is enough? Even the most die-hard libertarian would agree that capitalism requires transparency to function properly.
Could any experts in the subject weigh in on this?
@dfx: "I know this may seem offensive, but thieves get their books off piratebay..."
There, fixed it for you.
@Zagroseckt: Sony also makes a reader, equivalent to the Kindle. It may have text to speech (don't know for sure) but it's worth looking at.
Good post, Consumerist. I personally have a lot of hesitations and see a lot of infringing (on MY expectations as a consumer) problems with the DRM in the Kindle. Nevertheless, I (and family) are BIG readers who travel frequently.
Consumerist's labeling/disclosure suggestion is good, and I will not buy a Kindle for myself or as a gift until I see something identical or similar put in place.
@Tiber: I know for a fact that the most die-hard libertarians would agree.
As far as it being illegal, one may be able to employ a state's weight-and-measures law against them. That is a little out of my depth though; I would just fire off a 93A letter calling the scenario unfair and deceptive.
I think it is very important that all DRM, whether on ebooks, software, games, movies etc, should be disclosed before purchase.
@ezacharyk: I agree, especially since we're talking about things that you can't return once opened/downloaded.
@Cialis Cooper: The link to the previous article is busted: [consumerist.com]
Basically, it has to do with wanting the book on multiple devices and having to re-download the book every time you update your device.
Clueless here: Is there any analog with the Kindle to checking out library books (or "renting" a movie online via Netflix)? I.e., the file would lock or expire after 30 days, and the fee would be hugely smaller than buying the book. I buy very few books new for financial reasons... Book sales, yard sales, Half.com, used on Amazon, but mostly the public library are my sources. I might be VERY interested in renting a book and viewing it on a device like the Kindle, especially if (as on Netflix) I had access to new mass-market books -- often hard to get at the library because ppl put holds on them and the wait can be months.
Personally I've never used a Kindle and if they stay around $150 I know I won't ever buy one.
However my library has Kindle-type readers with pre-loaded books that can be checked out and used for free. It's just like any other library book. You return it within the time limit and there's no charge. You return it late and you pay a per-day late fee.
So you can try out the "Kindle experience" to see it you enjoy reading books on a screen, if your local library offers these. Then if this device makes sense for you, go ahead and purchase one.
@ElizabethD: All Kindle purchases are potentially rentals. They won't tell you which ones, but the ones that are DRM'd are rentals, since you don't own them. They remain the property of the seller or publisher, who can revoke your rights to view it whenever they like. You hope it won't happen, not for a long time anyway, but you have no say.
I fail to see why they don't disclose this info and allow people to search for books based on DRM "features". The openness would basically put pressure on book sellers to drop the DRM. That could only help Amazon.
@Radi0logy: My mom has one. She and my dad are currently cross-continentally married, so she flies constantly and she can burn through a 400-page book in a couple hours. This lets her carry a dozen books in the space of a single book and get new ones whenever she has wifi.
My mother reads a lot of popular fiction -- Janet Evanovich, Jodi Piccoult, that kind of thing -- and when she buys them hardcover, she reads them once (in two hours) and then passes them on to someone else or donates them to the library ANYWAY, so for her, the DRM cost for the Kindle isn't a big deal; she only WANTS to read them once.
I have also taught her how to download free ones so now she's doing that, too. :)
She came to take care of me after the baby arrived, and she spent a week sitting up nights with the baby in one hand and the Kindle in the other with her cute little Kindle light on. It is, in fact, way easier to turn pages one-handed on the Kindle, and it kept her place if she had to jump up and change a diaper or whatever (no hunting for a bookmark or flipping the book over open or whatever).
I played with hers and I don't think it's really for me -- I mostly buy books I intend to read repeatedly, and when I annotate, I like to annotate with a pen or highlighter, since I retain better when I can make the physical motions -- but it was really convenient for breastfeeding, easy to hold and turn pages in one hand, easy to put down at a moment's notice. I expect the device will get to the point where I'll find it more appealing (and that point would be "way cheaper" and with more features that appeal to me, though I don't know what those will be).
It's pretty much the same decision process as moving from individual CDs and a home stereo to a portable MP3 player.
Not true. I have a portable MP3 player, fed from individual CDs I still have.
Can I get all the books I own onto the Kindle? For free? You see, I have already paid for them once, and don't see paying again. Kinda like with the CDs.
So the person who said it was a problem with licenses vs. downloads was right. And most people don't want to put their books on more than 6 devices.
@Radi0logy: I have a Sony eReader, I like not having to have a pile of books laying around. Same with CD's, I now buy digital copies to alleviate the clutter.
I do all those things and I don't want one. What if I break it or someone steals it?
Also, "Publishers choose whether they apply DRM to their content and thus determine how many copies of each title can be downloaded to different Kindle devices at the same time."
I'm going to remember to ask about this if my book gets published.
(WHEN! WHEN! NOT IF!)
I know this isn't technically on-topic, but I just really want to know -- Who are these people buying the Kindle? What is the fascination with it? Does anyone here own it and can you explain why?
I just don't get it.