Shane has quite the quick wit! I like it!

And he was dumb enough to allow all this?

If you EVER have a security guard even TOUCH you, ask them "Do you intend to hold me here against my will?"

If they say yes, start yelling for the police, or call them on your phone. Don't stop until you attract enough attention. Yell that you are being kidnapped. Tell people the rent-a-cops aren't real.

When the police arrive, remember to offer to press charges against the guards unless they decide to end the situation the way *you* feel it should be. Remind them that they'll never work as a security guard again for the rest of their life with a conviction.

Of course, if they say no, tell them you'll be leaving and, if they want to call the police because they feel they need to press charges, that you'll be waiting outside for them, but you'd like to know now so you can let your appointments know that you'll be late. Be true to your word.

This is why I'm afraid of the police. I've never felt served or protected, only that I'm to comply or suffer punishment at their discretion.

The guard was an asshole but we have assholes in every profession and I doubt he will get fired. He might have been following standard operating procedures for all we know when he saw the guy snap the photo. I'm not defending the asshole guard but knowing what his SOP states when this sort of thing happens might explain a lot about his actions.

The guards were way out of line but why the hell did he feel the need to take a picture of them anyway?

@shepd: My understanding was that the toy cops only threatened physical contact while the actual Seattle cop did the spinning and handcuffing routine.

Sounds like his only crime was 'contempt of cop' which is something only cops think is a crime.

@Jared LeClaire: Does it matter?

Half of my coworkers have no idea what they are doing when they assist Loomis in removing and replenishing our store's ATM (which is almost identical.)

I doubt that Shane or anyone else who decides to photograph this process would be any better than them. This is why people back their cars into ATMs - it's too hard to crack!

First, fill the safe up with water...

Well, I just sent REI an email saying that this co-op member is going to stay away from REI for a year as well. Let's see if they tell me they're taking this very seriously.

@Ichiro51: Nope. It does not matter.

If I say something against the status quo I'm afraid Chris is going to send Loomis after me!

In all seriousness though this seems like a situation of private security's assuming they have all the power and are real cops when they aren't. It gets worse when the Police actually reinforce that idea by these actions. I used to work with a former security guard and he used to always tell me how he is just a cop in a different uniform. Same situation here maybe?

@liquidnumb: I was just saying the same thing... I consider myself a perfectly nice, law abiding person and 3 out of the 3 times that I've dealt with the police in my adult life have been being yelled at and intimidated for no reason what so ever... Even with the "Let me level with you officer, I'm a nice person and I just want to understand what's going on.." and I STILL got a power tripping cop up in my face.

Its sad that whenever I see an officer, I get freaked out.

Well, you know....you give some guys a gun, and they instantly think they are Robocop...

I'm a long time REI member. As soon as I finish posting this I'm going to be writing a polite but firm letter to REI letting them know that I am appalled that this happened at one of their stores and that the REI employees, Loomis employees, and Seattle PD overreacted the way they did. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, response I get from them.

@bigmil87: Could be. I would hope that security companies would drill into their employees' heads from the first day of training that they are NOT law enforcement officers.

It sounds like the security guard asked him to come over when he was done with his business, possibly to ask him to delete the image, as it would be a security concern, and then the OP decided to be an ass about it, so the security guard in turn, started to be a bigger ass, and then called the cops, as taking pictures of security guards working on an ATM seems like suspicious behavior, just like taking pictures of a bank or a jewlery store would be to many people. I also believe the OP left out several things in his time with the police as no cop is going to just grab a guy, in a public place, cuff him and throw them in the back of a car without putting them under arresst and reading them their rights.

This is one of those times where I believe the police and security guards were within their rights, but would have let the op slide if he wasnt being an ass, but becasue he was being an ass they found a reason to give him trouble.

If the security guard did threaten to tackle him (which probabaly happened, although I dont belive it was in the exact way noted above) then he was in the wrong, but made the right move in calling the cops.

@Ichiro51: No. No it doesn't. But I'm sure Jared was just curious.

@Jared LeClaire:It doesn't matter, and furthermore the reason it doesn't matter is that SCOTUS has ruled that as long as a person taking a photograph is in public, not breaking the law themselves, and not impeding law enforcement from doing their work, then no one can legaly say or do fuck-all, not even the police.

At the most, REI can ask him to leave their premises, and thats all that can happen, legally.

@xtc46: I was thinking sort of the same thing. There has GOT to be more to this story that makes the OP less "innocent" in all of this.

@Chongo: My friends brother was a cop, and she used to tell me that two kinds of people would become cops: those who where bullied as kids and want to make a difference, and the bullies themselves.

Apparently her brother was the latter.

I'm sure the RIAA would be ok with this along as he was taking a picture of someone else's picture.

@xtc46: Riiight. Because cops never step over the line, get loud and intimidating or act in any way that is unprofessional.

Never.

Only two types of people become cops. Ones that want to help the public and bullies. Unfortunately, bullies end up the majority since smart, sincere types can move ahead pretty quickly 'off the beat'.

@xtc46: Shane was within his rights to take the photo of the ATM. The only thing that could have stopped him was if REI said they didn't allow photography on the premises. "Seems like suspicious behavior" is absolutely not a legitimate or legal reason to harass a private citizen because he took a picture.

These are the same assumptions that trip up so many people on both sides of encounters like these. I urge you to download the Photographer's Rights document I linked to above and read it. It's a really fast read--just one page--and clears away a lot of "common sense" assumptions that are just completely false.

Thank you for posting this picture. I can how hack the gibson and buy the world, 20 ATM dollars at a time!

@xtc46: Yup, that's what I'm thinking as well. Something is missing, and all we've got is one picture and his side of the story. Corroborating documents (the "trespass" document he signed, correspondence from REI, Loomis, and/or Seattle PD, etc) or an article in the local paper would definitely help. Has anyone got any comment from any of those three entities?

Isn't this detention without charge? Doesn't he have a case against the rentadudes and the cops? You can't be arrested because you took a picture. Was he informed of his rights? Why would ANYONE sign anything before saying, "I'd like to call my attorney?"

@Chongo: To be fair, i have had quite a few run-ins with the police (no, I am not a hardened criminal, just got pulled over a lot) and found that the only time i ever had issues with the police was when i was acting the fool. Even with the polizei in germany, handling my drunk ass, i found that they were fairly level and escalated as i did. I never once got put in cuffs and dragged downtown.

On one hand everyone but the OP was an assclown. On the other hand veganstraightedge. Damn I really want to side with the OP but still...

Just kidding, had to make a joke. But really those security officers do need to be fired. I would have walked right on out of there. Possible with a middle finger pointed at them with a couple of f off bombs at them when they tried to stop me, then a nice heafty lawsuit when they touched me.

@sicknick: No, they do step over the line, but in this case, I dont think they did. Its like when a cop pulls you over for going 10 over the speed limit. Are they within their rights to do so? very much so, can they let you slide with a warning, yes they can. But if you are being an ass, and start giving them crap for pulling you over, can then then tell you to wait where you are, right you your speeding ticket, verify all your car's info is current, and make sure you have nothing else outstanding, Absolutely.

@Chris Walters:

Suspicious behavior IS enough to question someone, and IS enough for a police officer to question you. If you can be reasonable conceived as a threat to another person or person property, then they are within their rights to stop and question you. There is a huge differance between somone standingona sidewalk takeing a picture of a building, especially landmarks, or things in public, its entireley differnt to take pictures of security personelle taking apart an expensive bank asset like an atm.

IN ADDITION. Just about every major chain store has a no photography within the store rule on the books. It is in place to prevent competitors from taking snap shots of exclusive products or logging prices in mass, and like many rules, it is ignored becasue people can break it without causing headaches for anyone, but is kept for that 1 in 1000 time that they need it.

@xtc46: They were not within their rights. Security guards have no right to randomly invoke rules and try to enforce them. The OP may have been being a dick, but who wouldn't when confronted by these rent-a-cops. When stopped by Campus "police" once (on a public road), I was asked for ID, I told him to call a cop and I'd show the cop my ID, but otherwise he could get stuffed.

But aside from whether or not the OP was being an asshat or not, the fact is if he was doing something against store policy, that should have been explained to him by the Loomis guys or by the cops who arrived.

What's offensive about this situation is this assumption (as an earlier poster said) that being a dick to a cop is an offence. It's not. The cops these days assume that if you're a member of the public you are a) an asshole just waiting to do something wrong if you're not already doing it, and b) supposed to follow their orders no matter how stupid or insane.

When our own police forces begin to view us as the enemy, we're in serious shit. When the government views the cops as a tool, not of enforcing the law, but of keeping people in their place, we're fucked. Look at agents provocateurs in the recent G20 in England and last year in Quebec. Cops caught going undercover in a crowd of otherwise peaceful protesters (noising, annoying, smelly, hippy, anarchist protesters) trying to start shit so that the uniformed cops would have an excuse to bust heads! Exactly what part of Serve & Protect is that?

The cops don't like to write reports, so if they can get you to voluntarily do , it makes life simple for them. Hassle or mouth off, and the cuffs go on...it's that easy for them. They only need make the detention or arrest on "grounds" or mere "suspicion"; it's up to the DA or whoever to file the charges and make them stick.

In many jurisdictions, rent-a-cops go through an abbreviated version of real police training (in California, it's called POST for Peace Officer Standardized Training). Many do this in order to get a badge, some do it in order to be able to carry a gun. In all such cases, they _do_ have actual police power, but its limited to the course of their duties; unlike police, for example, a security guard CANNOT carry his service weapon 24/7 unless they have a valid CCW (Carry Concealed Weapon) permit.

The one mistake it appears Shane made was not to ask for what charges he was being DETAINED (not arrested) on...while in some circles, being cuffed means that you are under arrest, in other interpretations, it means that you are merely being "detained" for investigation preliminary to the filing of charges ("suspicion").

When I was in college, the disabled students were denied rights and protested, and the campus police chief came up with a novel concept of "momentary detention", where he would come up and cuff people long enough to stall the march, then uncuff them. A $7million lawsuit later determined that was illegal, as there was no investigation or arrest recorded, and he was holding the students without legal justification.

IANAL, but I'm familiar with enough of the material to say that Shane likely can own his REI and then have two police officers work off their damages as part-time security for him.

@Jared LeClaire: Because it's there, Jared.

There's this thing called a Constitution, that says (and I paraphrase) that things that aren't specifically prohibited, are allowed.

Or, to quote Cleo McDowell, "This [is] America, Jack!" /Coming to America

@bigmil87: I'd love to have one say that to me in person. Impersonating an officer is a crime.

that lawyer guy should make little laminated 3x5 cards with the basics on them to present to power tripping cops, insecurity guards, etc.

@xtc46:
Oddly enough "being an ass" is not a crime.
For that you should be very, very thankful because you certainly met the quota with that post.

Man, what a bunch of assholes. I hope they all get fired and this turns into a huge embarrassment for Loomis, REI, and the Seattle PD.

@xtc46:

Huh? Going 10 miles (hell, even ONE) mile over the limit is breaking the law. Taking a picture in a public place like in this situation is NOT breaking the law. Your analogy fails.

What has happened in this country when trying to protect your rights is "acting like an ass"?

@sanjsrik:
That's exactly what I was thinking. How could they arrest him and throw him in a holding cell without any kind of charge? That sounds like a potential lawsuit against the police right there.

Just e-mailed REI customer service. They need to act quickly to guarantee the safety of their customers from their nazi-wannabe contractors.

My guess is that the security guards were probably following their company's procedure. I know that's been mentioned above, but the salient point is - a lot of companies set policy, tell their people to enforce it, and then it's just like law. Except it isn't. The cops might have sympathized with the guards because of "the policy". They might have even thought that the policy makes sense, even though it really doesn't.

The Supreme Court enacts new law by way of "precedent", and Corporate America enacts new law by way of "policy." Until one of the three real branches of government stops the abuse, Corporate America will remain our fourth branch of government.

@Saisu Mimen: What has happened in this country when trying to protect your rights is "acting like an ass"?

Depends on how you go about it. The "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" approach tends to invite scorn from some who would otherwise not care about your plight.

@menty666: Don't worry, he was fired long ago. Never showed up on time...and he always came in with donuts no joke...Coincidence? I think not.

@Ichiro51:

You could be right, but the title does specififcally say the rent-a-cops cuffed and hauled away the shopper. If that's true, that's assault (well, unless he willingly let the cuffs go on).

NWO goons here, nothing to see. Everyone just ignore it like usual.

"Why should I care, I didn't do anything wrong."

America asked for this and now we get it. I am not in the least surprised.

@xtc46: Photography does not constitute "suspicious behavior."

@jswilson64:

I simply could not help but wonder why he would feel the need to take a low quality and obscured photo of the interior of an ATM. I went on to read his explanation stating he enjoys seeing the inner workings of things, which is understandable. I can also understand why the officers may feel uncomfortable with someone taking their photo like that, even if they obviously blew things out of proportion. Furthermore, sarcasm and childish lessons on the constitution are not necessary, I simply asked a question.

@xtc46: "I also believe the OP left out several things in his time with the police as no cop is going to just grab a guy, in a public place, cuff him and throw them in the back of a car without putting them under arresst and reading them their rights."

Wake up, it happens all the time. Personally I've been detained without cause and did not have my rights read to me.

"This is one of those times where I believe the police and security guards were within their rights, but would have let the op slide if he wasnt being an ass, but becasue he was being an ass they found a reason to give him trouble."

Yea cause blaming the victim is really popular here.

Fact is the security guard is on the job which requires him to be professional. It doesn't matter if someone not even his customer is being a jackass to him. He must still maintain his professionality.