Don't Move House If You Have An Amex Card
Here's a cautionary tale from a Consumerist reader whose credit card company contacted his out-of-date phone number and got authorization for a $4000 spending spree. withdrew thousands of dollars from his bank account for a payment he had supposedly scheduled and then OK'd over the phone. The problem? He hadn't scheduled it, that wasn't him on the phone, and that wasn't his phone number.
"Today my wife went to withdraw money from our bank account and noticed to her surprise that we were over $4000 overdrawn. We then went online to check our account and noticed that there was a large pending payment to our American Express card. We checked the Amex account online and saw the same payment listed there. But neither my wife nor I had authorized this payment. So we called American Express and thus began a descent into madness...
1. The first person my wife talks to at Amex says that she'll have to open a billing inquiry and it could take up to six weeks to resolve. My wife said that was unacceptable and asked to speak to a supervisor.
2. The supervisor said that they called a number (they wouldn't even tell us what number) associated with our account and that the person they spoke with authorized the payment. My wife said that neither of us had spoken to anyone and the supervisor said that he would pull the tape of the call and would call us back within the hour.
3. The customer service rep (not the supervisor) who called us back said that they had reviewed the call and related the transcript to us. It's important to understand that my wife has an unusual first name that someone could take for being either a male or female name:
Amex Rep: Is this [my wife's name]?
Man at unknown phone number: "Yes, this is [my wife's name].
Amex Rep: Do you authorize a payment of $XXXX on your account?
Man: "Yes, you can take the money out of my bank account."
Amex Rep: Would that be the account ending in xxxx?
Man: "Yes, that's the account."
Based on this crack display of identity verification, Amex says they would not be refunding the money. We said we would be putting a stop payment on the transaction and would be contacting a lawyer.
So, apparently if you have a phone number that used to belong to an Amex account holder and Amex calls you asking for payment, all that is required to authorize money be removed from that person's bank account is to say "yes, that's me" and "yes, that's my account". No verification of social security number. No asking what the last four digits of the bank account is. No "what's your mother's maiden name".
My wife and I are outraged. It is unbelievable that Amex makes no attempt to verify that they are talking to the right person. Heck they could have even called our home phone number and if someone else (a babysitter, a mother—in-law, etc.) answered, all they would have to do is pretend to be one of us and they could authorize a payment!"
Be warned, folks. Pass on any address change and phone number updates to your bank, credit card issuers, direct debit recipients, etc., as soon as possible.
(Thanks to vslacks!)
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(Photo: Björn Söderqvist)
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Comments:
Too many things in this story don't make a lot of sense. Was the card set up for automatic payment? Why would Amex be calling to authorize a payment? Does Amex do things differently?
I wouldn't be surprised if that was a BS'd transcript that was made up.
....I'm saying "I wouldn't be surprised" a lot.
*jaw drop*
Can the OP get the cops on the new tenant/homeowner/whomever for fraud for authorizing that charge? Isn't what that person did technically identity theft?
@snazz: I'm not understanding this either. It would seem the person at the phone number would have to have the card number as well as the phone number.
I can't even call my bank myself without answering a bunch of questions regarding my identity, wtf!
Wait a second....
The payment was made from the OP's bank account to the OP's AMEX account.
So basically, the money got shifted from two accounts both owned by the same people. They haven't lost anything other than the $4k turning from cash into available credit.
AMEX has never called me when I made a large payment to my account, and I've made multiple payments over $1500.
Something smells fishy here.
First off, the headline is wrong. Lucy fails Journalism School 101. It's not a "spending spree", it's a payment that was made to the AMEX Card.
Apparently, it wan an open AMEX account that was in good standing. Somehow, a payment was initiated and AMEX called the old number to OK the payment, the number said OK.
Basically, Amex was granted a payment on someone's balance that wasn't authorized. The only person getting money out of this was Amex, not the person on the old phone number.
That's what I'm getting out of this story.
Soooo, what happened here? Ultimately the OP's Amex card paid itself? Was anything stolen?
Why would somebody authorize a payment on a card that they have no vested interest in?
I think a piece of the story is missing. I don't think there are people out there who try to fraudulently pay off your credit cards...
As a man who is OFTEN mistaken for a women on the phone, unless the caller IDed themselves as a man/women, I think we shouldn't identify them as "Man" in the transcript.
To the OP: Did you try any of your past phone #'s? I have only had a few in my lifetime, and even less than that since I got a credit card. So it would be pretty easy to call my past #'s to see if anyone answered, or even to call AMEX and ask what number they have on YOUR record as the contact number, unless they won't divulge your info to you, which is very ironic.
I wonder if someone hadn't hijacked/cracked/social engineered the OP's credit card info/web profile, and changed the approval call number to one they would answer to approve the charge and you would be none the wiser.
I don't get it...who used the card to begin with? I'd cancel the card and start fresh because it seems that AmEx did the right thing by calling the phone number associated with the account because some third party (who was not the OP or his wife, or the person whom AmEx called) put a charge on the card.
I suppose even if you associated your card with a cell phone, that can change too if you move to a different area code.
What is the animal in that photo? That is just adorable.
How did the money get withdrawn from the account? If you have a charge on your AmEx, doesn't it stay there until the billing cycle is up and then you would notice? Why would AmEx call to withdraw money from your checking account? I would think if they did call to confirm a charge was authorized, they would post the charge to the account, not take your money. I guess this could happen if you had autopay? But why would you autopay before the billing cycle was up?
This is just mindblowing. Amex?? What is going on over there? It's just one story after another.
I think it's time to stage an intervention. Dr.Drew?
OK, I'm calling shenanigans on this entire story.
1) Was the Amex card that belonged to the OP set up for automatic payment? If no, then..
2) Did someone initiate a payment on their AMEX account that was higher than normal, (perhaps a typo?) and AMEX called a wrong number to verify?
3) I want to know more about this story, but there's a load of information that's being left out here, I surmise.
Sounds like someone tried to charge $4000 on their AMEX, and AMEX called (the same scammy person, presumably) to verify the charge on the AMEX and subsequent payment from the bank account.
@pecan 3.14159265: Also, while AmEx did the right thing by calling to confirm a charge, they definitely didn't make an effort to verify anyone's name, which is terrible. But I wanted to clarify that AmEx did the right thing by calling, but that this was not a legit charge, and they messed up by not using real verification tactics. Heck, even Verizon makes you give them a 4 digit password before they will tell you anything about your account.
@BuddyGuyMontag: Please send any grammar/spelling mistakes to the author using the links provided on the top right of every page, rather than use the comments.
Also, since I can't email you, I think you wanted to use the word "was" instead of "wan" in the 1st sentence of the second paragraph.
"They haven't lost anything other than the $4k turning from cash into available credit."
Uh. Well, they now have a HUGE OVERDRAFT.
@Joe Reilly: "Why would somebody authorize a payment on a card that they have no vested interest in?"
Because people are assholes? I can see someone getting a phone call and they just saying, "Yes" to everything to be assholes.
@pecan 3.14159265: I think it's a rabbit. Whatever it is, today is clearly a Cute sort of day...babies and bunnies in one day. Impressive.
If they could work a cat and/or a cake in there, my day would be complete.
@Skellbasher: My bank(s) call me when I do something extremely out-of-the-ordinary. A $1500 payment is fairly ordinary (helloooooo, rent check) but certain stores or certain cities have sent up flags in the past.
@pecan 3.14159265: They did the right thing by calling, but DID NOT do the right thing by only needing "Yes" answers. When I call BofA myself (and the once or twice they've called me through the years), they always ask ME to identify myself, using the last 4 digits of the soc, current address, stuff like that. They don't ask me, "Is this your account number?" and just have me say yes. That IS NOT the way you identify someone.
@Skellbasher: But who authorized that? That's the question. Someone decided it was okay to just tell AmEx they could do whatever they wanted with someone else's money...and why would the OP or his wife initiate the transfer? They didn't seem to even know about it.
@pecan 3.14159265: Huh? Were you reading a different article?
Seriously, I'm confused. There was no call to verify a charge. There was a call to verify a payment. That's what I got from it at least??
@PartOfIMAXConspiracy_GitEmSteveDave: Being a Content Nazi is completely different than being a Grammar Nazi. I make enough spelling/grammatical errors that I don't get upset when other people make them.
I DO get upset that when the content of an article is crappy, because it's just an indication that people don't give a crap about what they do.
I just read a story in the NJ Star-Ledger freaking out about "no beer at the New Yankee Stadium bleachers", when in actuality, there is beer allowed, and there was never beer allowed at the OLD Stadium's bleachers.
Oh yeah. I'm a roll today.
@valueofaloonie: That is also a possibility, but I've never heard of a scammer going so far to pay off what they've stolen, even it's with someone else's funds.
@valueofaloonie: If this is the case, it speaks to a major issue with AmEx security because it means the scammer got ahold of the OP's credit card, and was able to get through all of the security verification through AmEx to change the contact phone number so it would go to the scammer and not the OP.
@PartOfIMAXConspiracy_GitEmSteveDave: If that's what happened, they could have also changed the address, and gotten a "refund" mailed to them.
@BuddyGuyMontag: Yeah, either Consumerist or the person who sent this in appear to have edited out crucial facts. Such as, how have the OP lost anything if it was a payment from their bank account to their Amex card? Wouldn't Amex just refund the overpayment?
Call the police
I occasionally get calls for some joker whose real phone number, I found out, has the same last four numbers, but a different prefix. Either he used to live in our area, and kept confusing prefixes, or he just gives out our number to people he doesn't want to talk to later. I would also find this number all over town when merchants ask for it. I should return the favor, handing this guy's number out to random people I do business with.
@pecan 3.14159265: They wouldn't necessarily need to have the physical credit card to do that. It could be done through the website if they got the login credentials via phishing, password guessing, keyloggers, etc.
@TinkishDelight: Whoops, sorry. I meant payment, my mind went 'charge!' and there we go, reading comprehension at 4 pm, an hour before I am free from my current workplace, goes out the window.
But it still stands. Why would AmEx call to confirm a payment? I wasn't aware that AmEx had such a vested interest in the paying habits of their customers..as long as they paid.
Another reason not to link your bank account to any credit cards or ANY other bills. Then you cant have these issues. Learn the lesson
@BuddyGuyMontag: But if "proposed scammer" and "phone answerer" are two different, unrelated people, it makes more sense.
Well.. it doesn't.. but it does.
Step 1: AMEX number stolen, charged-the-hell-out-of
Step 2: AMEX calls old number to verify autopay (or whatever it is)
Step 3: Phone answerer just says "yeah sure" (or "yes sir") because he/she doesn't know what's going on and doesn't care.
Step 4: Someone else profits.
@pecan 3.14159265: Oh ok. That was my confusion as well. The only thing I can imagine is that their account was late and Amex was calling to get the late payment.
Again with what you said, it doesn't excuse the terrible verification process.
@BuddyGuyMontag: We have a call of Shenanigans! Please everyone go get your brooms while the call is investigated. Please note, no further calls of Shenanigans will be allowed until this call is decided.
They would have failed miserably trying to get $4k out of my account :-P
If true, that behavior is very unlike American Express. AMEX from my experience gives you a complete shakedown when verifying identity.
When I got my Blue Cash card in August they shut down my card after a few days (resulting in an embarassing declined transaction) in order to force me to call and confirm who I was.
They wouldn't let me use the primary phone number on my account since it was a cell phone and went as far as calling the switchboard at work after hours to listen to my office voicemail. Once they heard my voice on the message, they were confident it was me.
@yoni242: That doesn't actually fly, because you have to pay your credit card somehow. If you send a check, there's your account number and routing number. If you pay online, you use the same information.
@Joe Reilly: What happened? His AMEX made an unauthorized payment on itself.
what is wrong with this? Let me count the ways...
1. He might not have wanted to pay that 4k at that time, and he might not have needed to
2. Why was AMEX trying to get that money in the first place? What put the idea into their head that they needed to do this?
3. Why were the only questions they used to verify the account holder: is this you? is this your account? rather than actually challenge the holder? Think about what that could mean if they get the wrong number again...Someone associated with your account could get a phone number, say it's you and then ask to have the whole account read to them just to make sure it's right.
4. How could they have not known that a man was not his wife?
5. Yes, money was stolen...Any money that was taken out of your account unauthorized seems like theft to me...not to mention any processing fees, over draft fees and stop payment fees and lawyer fees they're going to have to pay to get this settled.
Have some depth.
@valueofaloonie: We're not told that they're disputing any charges on the card though. I would think $4,000 in unauthorized charges would come up in a complaint letter.
God, what an insanely shit "authorisation" system. You're supposed to authenticate someone by getting THEM to give information to YOU, not the other way around.
@yoni242: I really don't agree. The potential for problems of this type is probably less than the potential for problems caused by sending checks through the mail (those also have your account number on them, FWIW). With an online bill payment setup the companies can't play games with claiming your mailed payment was received late.
I do agree, though, that AUTOMATIC bill payment is a bad idea. You want to have a human in the loop.
MasterCard has called me a few times for unusually large charges, for which I thanked them every time; I appreciate the proactivity on a red flag.
I'm trying to remember if we did the security dance, but I think the security was in calling the number associated with my account, i.e. a number that someone who had just stolen the numbers wouldn't have.
@pecan, True but people set up auto pay and thats how that got messed up. Of course you have to send check or payment.
@snowburnt: Of course, if they *had* asked for verification, there's a whole new issue to consider. You know, someone calling you and asking for your SSN, credit card, etc.
I wasn't implying that there was nothing wrong with what happened, just looking for some clarity.
Why would somebody hire an attorney at $250 an hour when money went from one account to another account (it was his debt after all)? To recover the $35 overdraft fee?
I can't stop asking questions here because I fail to see the severity of what happened here. If one of my bank accounts took money from another one of my bank accounts, I'm pretty sure I'd only be out $35 due to the overdraft. Not sure why this necessitates a stop payment and a lawyer. He's going to have to pay that $4,000 sooner or later.
where did the money go? did they use your credit card and then have amex call them to verify some purchase they made? seems odd that they could steal your credit card info, use it, and have your old phone number for amex to call to verify a large purchase.