Cablevision Takes Away Analog Stations Before DTV Transition, Confuses Customers
Joe works at a Radio Shack store on Long Island. Lately, the combination of the digital TV transition and some recent lineup changes at local cable TV provider Cablevision has Joe concerned, since he has both a conscience and a brain, and is an avid Consumerist reader.
Most electronics store employees don't know or care enough to straighten their confused customers out. They mistakenly believe that they need to buy an over-the-air converter box in order to receive the missing channels again.
Over the last 3 weeks, customers have been flowing into my local Radio Shack, asking for DTV converter boxes to use with their cable service. This seemed to make very little sense, as 1. The Converter boxes only convert over-the-air signals, and 2. Cablevision sends broadcast channel signals through the line in analog format, as required by their agreement with the FCC.
After doing a bit of research, I found out that Cablevision had taken 16 channels, including Lifetime, MSNBC and MTV, from the analog lineup. (See this article.) The message on the screen, reads "This Channel is now available with a digital cable box or CableCARD." This message, combined with the DTV switchover messages that have been bombarding viewers, left them to believe that the need a DTV converter box, when in fact, they need a Cablevision Digital Cable Box.
After the 4th day of customers coming in for boxes that shouldn't work, I called Cablevision and confirmed that the DTV boxes will not work for this, and that customers who want those channels will need a cable box. While the customer service representative swore that correct information was being given to customers, and that all their subscribers were notified, nobody I have talked to has heard anything about these notifications and some customers have even claimed that the Cablevision reps told them to come into Radio Shack to buy the DTV boxes.
While I have done the best to get this information out to my co-workers and other Radio Shack stores, I am still hearing reports of customers meeting confusion and the runaround when going to other electronics retailers (Best Buy, I'm looking at you.).
I cannot confirm if any other Cable Providers are doing the same (Cablevision is the service provider for a Number of Suburban Areas around New York City, Including, Long Island, Connecticut, and New Jersey.) But it appears that the Cablevision problem is widespread on Long Island. I have tested the channels in question without a cable box, and sure enough, they aren't coming in on my analog TV. Furthermore, as a Cablevision customer myself, I have not seen any notices from Cablevision regarding this change.
On average, I personally have to provide clarification for 3-4 customers every day, and I am only a part time employee in a very small store. If this is any indicator, there is a large consumer base that may potentially be confused to the point where they are buying products they don't need.
It sounds like what efforts Cablevision is making to get information out to the public—if any—aren't working, and it's easy to see how people could confuse digital cable boxes with DTV converter boxes. Bad time to make a drastic lineup change.
Cablevision to eliminate 16 analog channels [Newsday]
(Photo: reegmo)
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Comments:
@HelloSailor_GitEmSteveDave:
But in this case, that flow chart does not work. In order to make way for more HD channels, Cablevision is taking away regular ole analog channels that do not require a digital cablebox.
To keep getting those channels, these people will now have to pay for a box, rather than simply plugging coax into the back of their TV.
Kudos to Joe for trying to help his customers. Minus several million points to Cablevision for their timing, which I wish I could think wasn't a calculated effort to confuse their customers.
As a heads-up for Joe (and people who live in Cablevision-land) the company's probably going to shut off analog altogether (which the exception of the "lifeline" service, which only brings in the over-the-air channels) by the end of the year. So, if you have analog, and want to get any of the "cable" channels (CNN, TNT, ESPN, etc.), you'll need a digital box.
We don't use an antenna at my house, however we've already started losing channels, so we bought the converter and got them back. I don't get it because we were told to do nothing, but we still lost channels...
I hate to say it, but he needs to actually read his bills. These things are announced in every bill. I see them in mine. Time for people to enter the 21st century.
This already happened on another network (can't think of which one, but it's whatever serves Highland Park, NJ), the cable company killed any digital channels from appearing on an analog box, no explanation (until I got to talk to engineering), no notice.
@HelloSailor_GitEmSteveDave:
Yea except if they followed this flow chart they would be wrong. They would follow "Do you use an antenna?" > "No" > "Do nothing", when in fact they need a cable stb to get those channels.
@NeverLetMeDown:
That's alright by me, as analog channels use up more bandwidth than their digital counterparts, which (hopefully) makes room for more HD channels...
How old does your TV have to be in order to not have a digital tuner?
They're doing it to free up bandwidth on their cable lines for more HD channels. By moving channels off of the analog spectrum and onto a digital spectrum they can provide the channels semi-on demand rather than always being there. This significantly lowers the bandwidth the channels take and allows for more HD channels.
@sna: If you have cable, you're probably losing channels because Comcast sucks and has reduced programming in its local stations, not because of the transition... what channels are you losing?
Don't analog channels take up a lot more bandwidth than digital? Therefore cutting out the analog should free up a lot of room for more channels, including sweet sweet HD ones.
This is what I love about the constant "if you have cable, don't worry about the OTA DTV transition." It's technically true, but misleading as hell - the cable companies are eventually going to be shutting off analog broadcasts, too, just not on the same time line. It's less of a problem since the cable company will provide you with a box, but it's still a hassle for people who use their own tuners, and now need a new solution.
@Yankees368: @cc82: No, they would be right. They do not need a DTV converter box. They need to talk to their cable company. This article seemed(to me at least) to be about people trying to buy DTV converter boxes, and this extremely helpful/informed employee explaining that they do not need one, and need to talk to Cablevision.
@HelloSailor_GitEmSteveDave: Yeah, what they said...did you bother reading the article? These customers were told BY CABLEVISION to get a converter box, when in fact, they don't need it.
@Yankees368: @cc82:
This chart, and SteveDave, are referring solely to the broad switch to digital television, not cable companies' underhanded tactics of moving channels to "digital" tiers (wonder what they'll call those tiers after the switch?), which is what this article refers to.
Yes, the customers in this story do need a cable box, and not a signal converter, and that is where the problem lies. Cablevision, at the least, is not explaining the situation well enough, and at worst, is lying to people.
@HelloSailor_GitEmSteveDave: Under some circumstances, the cable company is the last person I'd want to talk to about this, lest I get badgered by a sales-pitching CSR. But that's more of a customer-relations issue than a DTV one.
I'm going through this with my 90 year-old grandfather who has cable, but no cable box. He's in position to take on the mighty Comcast CSRs with their riddles and mind games.
Not to sound like a total prick here, but as mentioned directly in the article: The message on the screen, reads "This Channel is now available with a digital cable box or CableCARD." A Digital cable box and digital converter box are different things.
Kudos for this radio shack employee for doing the right thing rather than simply selling them a box they don't need.
@pecan 3.14159265: What difference does that make? I have a very nice Apex 24" set in my bedroom, I don't recall when I got it - maybe 2003? - but it works just fine. Before that, I had a Sears 19" from 1980 that still worked great, which I donated to a worthy recipient.
I work in LPTV and have had to answer more DTV conversion questions than any sane woman should ever have to. I am insanely glad that this company does not do business in my area or I would be in tears already. x.x
One thing I've been learning is that Cox hates, hates, hates people who are on boring, regular cable. They don't make as much money off those people, and I think they're slowly taking channels away so more people will have to switch to Digital.
And then they bundle Digital cable in with internet and phone so you almost have to do all of it just to "save" money, and to get the channels you want without the fear of Cox taking them away and telling them you can't have them back.
Just noticed this last night. I do not have 23 and 47 which are MSNBC and History channel respectively.
CableVision IO tv is the worst possible thing I have ever seen. From design, to speed to the shit ass remote.
I would rather just have my Tivo with basic service.
@pecan 3.14159265: A: Drop cable/Satellite altogether. That's what I did, and I'm happier and richer for it.
I used to subscribe to Dish and when the economy tanked, I looked at my satellite bill and realized that I was only watching 1 channel and listening to the Sirius radio channels. I decided to not watch the 1 channel anymore and subscribed to Pandora to replace Sirius. Bill went from $90/mo to $35/YEAR!
Yeah, it's not at all possible that people who don't know the difference between a digital cable box and a DTV box could be confused about that.
It's not underhanded. They move stuff to digital channels because that allows them to fit more HD channels. Analog cable is inefficient, and it is going away slowly.
@larrymac:
Why should Cablevision have to delay their plans to move these channels because the government delayed its plans to do the DTV switch? Why would they be trying to confuse their customer? They're not making money off those DTV boxes.
We have Comcast cable (Mass); one set equipped with a digital box and several other sets just hooked to cable w/o the box (Hey! They charge extra for the %*&^$ box and "digital starter" service!)
We've been watching channels disappear from the unboxed sets around the house but they continue to exist on the one with the digital box, sometimes in the same spot, sometimes they're moved to upper channels.
It's easy to see how this would be blowing people away and causing confusion.
We received - out of the blue - a letter from Comcast the other day, promising "up to 2 more digital boxes at no extra charge - more to follow", but have heard nothing more yet.
@larrymac: It makes a difference because according to the flow chart, you need a converter box if you don't have a digital tuner. It doesn't apply to me, since I'm going to have cable, but my grandma doesn't and I'd like to know whether she needs a box.
All digital confusion aside, MTV et. al. on the digital tier is ridiculous. They're charging extra money on channels that previously were going out with the most basic service package. Now if you want to watch MSNBC in your bedroom, you'll need a second cable box, rather than just hooking the coaxial line up to your TV.
@vastrightwing: Not an option for me until ESPN decides to stream every football, baseball and basketball game on the internet for my husband. Also, can't until Discover decides to stream everything as well.
If you watch one channel, it's obviously a waste. But we watch a lot of TV (it's a way for us to unwind...we aren't vacation people) and it's definitely worth it to get cable.
This is partly a case of selection bias. The people who read and understood the notices from Cablevision didn't go to Radio Shack. RS only sees the people who were confused, and assumes the problem is more widespread than it is.
@katstermonster: The correct question is: did YOU read the article? The article says that Cablevision has a message on the screen telling them that they need a digital cable box in order to view those channels, not a digital converter, and they do in fact need one to view those channels.
The problem here is that most of their customers are already confused by the digital switchover, and suddenly the TV says they need something with the word "digital" in it without any word from Cablevision that the lineup is changing.
I don't see what the big deal is. Congress delayed the move a few months, then set another deadline for June, altghough most could move ahead if they want to, but from what I heard when I spoke to Insight Cable (my cable provider). They do NOTHING with the signal, they just pass it through.
So its up to the broadcasters to decide. Personally, I only get 14 channels on my digital feed and I was hoping I would get much more during the last allowable period so my HD Homerun (its a media center thing) would pick up more stations but alas, they didn't.
Congress did set some kind of restrictions for certain markets to ensure that they had analog signals to watch until the June switchover, but bottom line, I don't think its any fault of the cable companies, but I could be wrong.
@pecan 3.14159265: OK, chalk one up for "internet does not convey tone". Mea culpa.
The FCC mandate was for March 1, 2007 - as of that date all TVs had to have a digital tuner (if they had an analog tuner - "monitors" would of course have neither). That was for "imported into the US or shipped to retail". Some retailers probably continued selling off old stock.
@pecan 3.14159265: I've seen some being sold at stores right up until the time when the DTV conversion was supposed to happen (before it was pushed back). You'll know if you have a digital TV tuner if you don't get "snow". The station should only pixilate with bad reception.
@Erwos: yeah, but considering cable cos. frequently charge $5 or more/month for the use of those boxes, cable customers that don't need them NOW should be trying to put it off as long as possible.
When I grow up, I want to be a RadioShack employee!
@NeverLetMeDown: Verizon did this with their FiOS TV service in my area several months ago. When I first had FiOS, there were a few channels (mostly the local broadcast channels) that I was able to receive without a STB on an analog TV. To cram more channels in and increase their HD broadcast, they converted to 100% digital transmission. They offered every home a FREE STB that would decode all non premium channels. You can't do OnDemand, and you don't get the on screen guide on these free STBs, but on certain TVs, I don't care about those features.
Some MSNBC television programming is available via podcast.
A little off topic, but don't let the cable company tell you that you need a set top box and pay for digital cable to get HD broadcast stations. Most cable companies provide a clear qam signal of your local channels.
Not that this can help people who think cable channels like MSNBC et al are part of the digital transition.
@pecan 3.14159265: If it is a 4:3 aspect ration screen, it probably does not have a digital tuner...it might have a gigital tuner, but I think that manufacturers rolled out digital tuners in their HD sets, and just phased out the SD sets.
Details on the rollout of digital tuners are available here: [hraunfoss.fcc.gov]
There was apparently a revised ruling that changedthe date for smaller TVs which is detailed here:
[hraunfoss.fcc.gov]
But as you may recall, some retailers got into trouble for selling TVs without digital tuners after the required dates.
You can check to see if you have a digital tuner now because most if not all broadcast stations in major metro areas are already broadcasting Digital signals
Cable companies are pieces of s**t. I'm happy Comcast hasn't done too much to alter our analog cable lineup. The only channels we've lost to digital have been NASA-TV and the TV-Guide channel.
Forcing customers to switch to digital cable is a sleazy move, especially since doing so requires a set-top box for every analog TV (or a cable-card for compatible digital TVs), which cost a monthly fee.
With regular-ol' analog cable, you pay the same for 1 TV as you do for 5 (we have that many!), so the switch to digital would be rather painful given the higher bill per month, plus the $5 or $10 fee per month per STB.
I hope Cablevision does right by their customers by immediately phoning and notifying them of these changes they've forced upon them, but I'm not too hopeful that will actually happen...
@pb5000: Yes, but I can understand the confusion to people who don't know the difference between a "digital converteR" and "digital cable box". A lot people think it is the same thing.
@larrymac:
That is my exact problem. My wife got a television when she graduated from High School (1989) and she thinks it is perfectly fine. I want my 1080p! dag-nabit. But I cannot convince her to replace it.
When it comes to explaining the switch to people, I just fall back on Meg's flowchart, and print out a copy for them: