The kindle is a rip-off. $350 for 4 gb of memory and a black and white screen? What is this 2002?

That's like buying a tv set and having NBC decide they don't want to let you receive their signal. I have a friend in a publishing house and they decided on the Sony Reader; too many copyright issues with the Kindle.

@Watergun: You haven't read on one then. I have one and it is such a pleasure to read on, especially compared to an iPhone or computer screen. It's like reading real paper and it's so convenient having your magazines, newspapers, and books delivered on to one device

@Watergun: That "black and white screen" is e-paper, a technology that wasn't readily available to consumers in 2002, and it's significantly more advanced than a black and white LCD.

Yet another reason to bypass DRM if possible.

That's the awesome thing about printed books. Once you purchase it, the publisher can't decide to come to your house and prevent you from reading it or any other book they have printed just because they want to.

Technology is supposed to make reading your books or listening to your music when you want to how you want to easier.

I feel it makes people MORE likely to pirate the products if they fear that "the man" can just unilaterally revoke your licenses.

So, what'd he do? Was he a scammer? Is Amazon required to let scammers scam them and others without impunity?

Maybe it's just a glitch.

@SquareBubbles: You know what else is like reading real paper and doesn't cost $360?

I saw the CEO from Amazon on Charlie Rose talking about the Kindle, he made it sound he was all about opening up books to everyone as cheaply as possible. A real humanitarian Come to find out it is a real closed system, and besides the cost of the Kindle the books are real expensive.

I think the Kindle could have a place if the system was open so that we could get our books from any source.

Wow. More instances where buying some proprietary device results in the user being told what he can do with it. Is this thing built by Apple too?

I still have some of my favorite childhood books. Someday I hope that my kids will enjoy reading them too. I'm pretty sure I couldn't hope for that had my parents bought be Kindle versions of those books.

Besides Amazon's iron fist policy, what happens in 10 years when the battery completely gives up? Or if after 20 years, the display craps out? Sure, I imagine that I'd be ok if I had faithfully stayed on the hardware upgrade treadmill that I'm sure Amazon wants me on. But there's no way I could expect to pack a Kindle away in an attic for 20 years (like my books have been) and still have unfettered access to their contents.

@Watergun:

Ehh, you should do a bit of research. Kindle and its other eBook reader cousins are purpose-built for one single role, and most of them fulfill that role amazingly well. Ebook formats are usually very lightweight memory-wise, so 4GB of memory is nothing to scoff at; as for B/W screen, some reading on e-ink technologies might be in order. The screen is intended to display text, and use minimal amounts of power.

Unlike LCD-equipped laptops, netbooks, ultra-lites or whatever, e-book readers are generally very lightweight, their battery endurance is out of this world, their screens provide a low strain, glare-free reading environment nearly matching paper, they do not overheat...

As for the price, 2 points:

1) E-ink technology is still a fairly new one, and consumer cost of e-ink displays is the major factor in the cost of ebook readers (remember impact of cost of LCD screens on early laptops?)

2) Look at the cost of most modern mp3 players. You'll happily shell out $250 for an iPod, but not for an eBook reader?

@howie_in_az: That argument didn't hold water against the iPod. What makes you think it works for the Kindle?

@howie_in_az: My biggest problem is with the price. I understand that its easy on the eyes. But its $350 and on top of that the books cost $7. Add on the shenanigans that amazon has pulled on this like blocking text-to-voice and the fact that they can ban your access on a whim and I think the kindle is a terrible value.

@ShortBus: Again, removing the DRM yourself via illicit means is the only way to protect yourself from future obsolescence, because then you'll have digital copies that you can translate into new formats as necessary.

@Me: After reading the article linked above it stands to reason if you own a Kindle you should open a separate account to make non-Kindle purchases for yourself. Seeing as you won't be likely to try and return an e-book but you need the protection to be able to return other items.
Not the best solution, but as long as corporations dictate DRM and asinine policy terms it seems we need the protection.

Ha! I never understood ebooks.

@Watergun: The Kindle2 only has 2GB of memory, but is worth every penny.

@Watergun: A lot of people--mostly the anti-Kindle crowd, but a few Kindle owners I've met too--don't know that there are legit FREE sources of public domain books online. Feedbooks is an amazing resource that lets you use Whispernet (the built-in cellular connection) to download free titles just like the Amazon store, but, let me stress again, FREE. Suddenly you have access to thousands of classics and even some contemporary titles (like those by Cory Doctorow) in a physical format, instead of just having to read Gutenberg texts on your PC monitor.

To me, that's the #1 reason to own a Kindle. The #2 reason is to get magazine and newspaper subscriptions, because it's faster and more convenient. Lots of people say they *like* the smell/feel/heft of books, but I don't know a lot of people who are as emotionally tied to newspaper or magazine paper. Receiving those digitally is a boon.

#3 is the Amazon store, and it's a distant #3 because of their stupid, stupid DRM policies.

This is why I refuse to buy proprietary devices, proprietary file types or anything with DRM. Too many ways to get screwed for trying to be "honest". Honest seems to mean extra money for the company and far less rights for the consumer.

i'm looking for a new "toy" in the $300 range.
Good job amazon, not getting a kindle now.

(has anyone had exceptionally good/bad experiences with netbooks?)

Amazon can take a pretty hard line with some customers... but it's usually customers that have severely abused Amazon in some way.

In other words, if they banned someone for returns... well, the customer probably had some crazy number of returns.

@howie_in_az: But you can't impress others with your ability to spend lots of money on hip new things with a silly old book!

@Barrister76:
At least there are ways to strip the DRM off of most Amazon books. That's not the case with books you get from the Sony Store. Epub books, yes. Hopefully they'll be more widely available soon.

@henwy: I would not be so fast to blame the consumer on this one. Amazon has had more problems lately with orders. I had two recent issues. One was an item kept in my shopping list being switched. It went from a 12 pack of cocoa canisters to one cocoa canister for the same price from an outside retailer. I just saw the picture for the item in my list from the previous purchases and bought it. So I had to do a return. I am not going to pay 12x the going price for something. I also found a shipment in my orders that I did not order. I ended up subscribed to a product I bought in the previous year. I never signed up for subscriptions because I didn't want the confusion. I also had two 3rd party sellers on Amazon be unable to fulfill orders after I was charged for them through Amazon. Amazon shows the retailer has the item in stock when they don't. I think there are some 3rd party retailers list stock they don't have and then order it when someone places an Amazon order. Amazon has no interest in fixing the problem either. So that makes 4 returns in about a 6 month period of time. Those are the only returns I have ever had to do with Amazon in the years I have had an account.

@BytheSea: This is what I'm wondering too.

Now, I feel like they ought to guarantee your Kindle account will keep working even if they won't let you buy products for shipping off the main site, but I'm guessing they were probably well-justified in closing this guy's regular account.

@Watergun:

The price is high. E-ink screens are still too expensive. The price will come down over time or there will be some new technology that has the same benefits: daylight readability, easy on the eyes, low power. These are early adopter prices. Still, I find that the free samples save me money as does spending $9.99 on a new release rather than $20+. And, as Chris Walters pointed out, there are tons of FREE books out there. I didn't buy it to save money. I bought it for the convenience and considered it a luxury. It just surprised me by saving me money.

As for the Text to Speech thing, Amazon didn't completely block it. The Author's Guild insisted authors had the right to choose to allow or disallow it on their books. Audio book rights are a separate deal from print or ebook rights. I think they have a point. It seems Amazon also saw that they had a strong case and came to a compromise. I think it would be a bad call on the part of the authors if they do choose to block it. That doesn't mean they shouldn't move to defend their rights now.

I don't see why anyone would want one of these in the first place mainly because the initial capital investment could buy a lot of books.

@BytheSea: Sounds like a good plan.

Let's also revoke the driving licenses of those that have been audited, even if no issues were discovered during the process.

I do not like DRM. I DO like my Kindle. However, I know Amazon can lock me out if they want. SO...

I could protect myself two ways, in theory: I could buy most of my ebooks from other sites, and regardless of where I get them, I could crack every single one as soon as I get it.

I could strip DRM, convert to standard .mobi and then put it on my Kindle. If you have the google, you can learn to do his fairly easily.

Does it suck? HELL yes. However, if I want the device I gotta play Amazon's game. I would, if I were so inclined, have to go out of my way to make sure I can keep what I paid for.

Not saying I do this. Just saying it can be done. Just don't ever share your cracked files and no one but you and your hard drive will know. Unless you stupidly post the information on Consumerist. :)

@Kyattsuai: Maybe it can be blamed on the French. Or a hacker.

@frank64: New technology doesn't come cheap. In some time, the Kindle may be cheap enough for the masses, but we're still in early-adopter phase here for something like e-ink.

@gStein: I don't really get why people want netbooks, unless they travel a lot and don't require a lot of business software. I mean, if you travel a lot for pleasure I understand why you want something simple you can hook up to WiFi and check some email. I think for most people, once they have the netbook experience, they realize they miss some things.

So.. wouldn't a pretty easy workaround be to "sell" the kindle to a friend or relative, then have them sign up for a fresh, new Amazon account? Does Amazon allow sales of a used uint to a third party?

@Watergun: Quite right. although the screen is 'electronic ink' many of us were reading ebooks in 2002 (and earlier) on low-contrast, nice battery based screens. I was using my palm Vx for years to read ebooks. Aportisdoc converter on my desktop converted files to the suitable format (just drag the file onto the converter window, and it'd add it at next sync), and then read it on the palm. Even after 4-5 years, my battery life was still around 34 hours on a full charge, and that 8mb of ram (less other apps) still gave me room for about 10-15 novels. Unlike the Kindle though, it easily fit in my pocket.

The Kindle isn't that much more advanced. sure, wifi, but I don't think I ever had to spend more than 4-5 mins with my palm in a dock transferring data - even during a full system reinstall. Lets see, am I going to buy a big bulky kindle, with all that DRM crap, or should I go find a used Vx (since my old one gave up the ghost a year or two ago, when it got accidentally washed+tumble-dried) and save a few hundred bucks? No brainer really.

@bohemian:

And even 4 returns in 6 months was not enough to trip their alarms since your account wasn't discontinued. Just think about how many returns this guy must've had to get his shut down.

"That's the nasty thing about DRM."

I don't think it's really the Kindle's DRM that's really at issue here. When you buy a kindle, you're also buying Amazon's wireless service Whispernet and you're buying some online storage to store your content on (the Media Library). These two things put together make the content control of DRM look relatively benign.

It's especially a problem that there's no on-going monetary maintenance for either of these two "hidden" services so customers have no leverage when there are service problems that break the physical hardware.

@pecan 3.14159265: I have a netbook, and the only things I miss are things better done on a desktop anyway. My netbook is good for casual internet use on the couch. It's good for displaying recipes in the kitchen while I cook.

Most of what I use a computer for is based on the internet, which is why a netbook is the perfect secondary computer. It lets me disconnect from my desktop, which is all I really need out of a laptop.

@pecan 3.14159265:

I wasn't talking about the price of the Kindle, I can understand that(although I would wait until it becomes cheaper) I was really just talking about the cost of the books, and it looks like if Amazon keeps it a closed system they will always be expensive.

The Kindle would have more utility if I could put other things on it too.

@Andrew Norton: Most readers aren't fond of reading from something the size of the palm Vx's screen. And, having had hands-on time with both a Vx and a Kindle, the Vx's screen and interface both pale in comparison to the Kindle's. Interface design matters.

Something like this will be the camel that breaks the TOS/DRM lock on devices in court. A reasonable judge, with one look at this case, would call Amazon's action tortuous and infringing one a persons right to enjoy the device and documents they have purchased.

@Barrister76: NO, that's like buying a TV set and having NBC decide they don't want to let you receive their signal OR anyone else's...

@henwy: You'll notice bohemian was *not* talking about Kindle purchases.

@turkeyspam: Nicely played, sir.

Speaking of Apple, when did they become Microsoft? Terrible support and I can't install a thing on my computer without it trying to install another 10 Apple products on there. Amazing to see how quick that "we're different, end-user first" attitude went out the door once they actually got a taste of profits.

@howie_in_az: Um...paper?

@BythS:

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Unbelievable

HA! Paper books don't do this. When I buy it, it's mine forever! Mu wa ha ha ha ha!!!

When Amazon makes a Kindle that will withstand being tossed around in a car, will withstand a drop on a hard surface (several times) and enables me to buy a book for a price is significantly less than its paper form, I MIGHT consider one.

I understand the coolness factor of a Kindle and why some people might like them, I don't see how they offer much of a real advantage over a hard copy of the same book (which you can borrow from the library, give to a friend, or resell).