Amex Wants To Play "Scam Call" With You, Please Participate
Update: It turns out the call was legit.
American Express—assuming that's who Brandon called back—has apparently never heard of social engineering scams, considering how they verified Brandon's address the other night. You'd hope a credit card company would help educate its customers to be wary of giving out information over the phone, but the alleged Amex rep on the phone with Brandon demanded personal info and threatened to deactivate the card if he didn't comply.
I recently opened a charge account with American Express. I saw it as a way to not get into credit card debt and wanted the extended warranties, consumer protection, etc. that comes with the card. I had been very happy with my new Amex card, until last Friday. I was driving from my home in Dallas to Houston to visit family, and was somewhere in the middle of Texas, when at 8:45 PM, I got a call from Amex. All I hear from the guy on the line is "Hello this is so-and-so with American Express" and then my phone dropped the call (ATT). I was worried it was something serious since the call was coming in so late, fraud or something of that sort, so I called the number back. It reconnected me with Amex customer service. After going through the identification checks, I asked the woman on the line what the call had been in regards to.
She told me that Amex always called their customers within sixty days of a new account being activated to verify that they were who they said they were and they had given Amex a proper address. I was a little suprised that they were doing so at 9pm in the evening. When I said this to the woman, she seemed unphased and said it was company policy. She then told me that we needed to contact my bank to verify my address. At this point I was really shocked. "Most banks aren't open at 9pm," I said to the women. "Many bank across the country are open late on Fridays. At what bank do you have your primary account?" she responded. I told her that that I didn't really think this was necessary at 9pm in the evening while I was on the Interstate. She then told me that if I didn't verify my card, I would not be able to use it. "It'll only take three to five minutes." I relented and she called my bank, Citi.
The Amex woman put me on hold for a few minutes, and when she came back on the line, she had a woman from Citibank customer service with her. The Citibank woman had no idea what was going on. At first she also thought it was some sort of fraud situation, and seemed genuinely shocked when the Amex woman explained their address verification policy to her. After going through Citibank's lengthy phone verification process, I was told by the Amex woman that I had to ask the Citibank representative to tell me that address they had on file. At this point, I became nervous that this was some sort of fraud attempt. I demanded that the Amex representative somehow verify who she was. She could not. I then told her I was tired of going giving out my personal information on a three-way phone call, and refused to do so anymore. She then threatened to shut off my card. I relented again and asked the Citibank representative to verify my address. She did, and it was the same one Amex had on file. The Citibank representative apologized before she got off the phone for any inconvenience (they've been great since the partial-nationalization), and wished me a great weekend. At this point the conversation witht he Amex representative had gone on for over fifteen minutes. The Amex representative asked me if there was anything else she could do for me; I told her to put a note in my file to never call me again after 6PM central time unless it concerned fraud, and hung up.
Later I asked a friend who has had her Amex for three years if they had ever done this to her. They hadn't. Maybe it's some sort of new recession-era policy. Regardless, it certainly tarnished my view of American Express' supposedly sterling reputation.
(Photo: faith goble)
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Honestly, unless you were planning on using the card to pay for the gas on the trip you were on, and didn't have another form of payment, I would have let them cancel rather than giving up personal info to someone that contacted you.
stop talkin while driving! damn!
Sounds very odd, and I wouldn't rule out fraud.
Did you call the number back from your caller ID, or did you call the number on the back of the card? Telephone phishers can get a toll free number too...
I don't think amex has ever done that to me....
You've fallen for the scam. Btw, whats your phone number?.. You havnt heard of Ponzi have you..
I'd call back again during normal business hours using the number on the back of the credit card and verify that someone from the company called. This all sounds very suspicious.
You should look up the phone number they used to call you to confirm that this was indeed AMEX. It sounds like there was absolutely nothing about this call that confirmed it was AMEX.
Something is fishy there. They've never done that on any of the cards I have, and I never would have permitted that 3-way call.
Something is not right. OP should call the customer number on his card and verify that the real AMEX originated this call.
@coopjust: +1 on that. That definitely sounds like telephone phishing. I hope Brandon keeps an eye on his Citi account for a while.
Love the picture. I guess "Nobody knows you're a dog" is true on the phone as well as the Internet.
She then threatened to shut off my card. I relented again
Getting your address is not hard. It is public information (usually, it depends on the type of transactions you have been involved in).
In this case, I am hoping you are okay. Worst case scenario, you escalate with AmEx on their customer service side if she closes your account. However, your new worst case is that this AmEx call was a hoax and you have months/years of identity theft headache ahead of you.
Seems like an easy choice. Hang up and call the number LISTED on your AmEx card ONLY. Social Engineering is powerful ONLY for those to weak-minded to overcome the perceived risk. (sorry OP, not intended as an insult).
I've been a happy AMEX customer for many years, but the last three months have been brutal. They are just trying to get a higher seed in WCIA 2010.
@coopjust: I'd contact AmEx immediately through the number on your card. And request that they pull up a call log of this call, this very well could be a scam.
@coopjust:
Yeah, AmEx policy states that any caller who receives a call asking for personal info should call the number on the back of the card if they are suspicious or if the call has already ended.
I'd call 1-800-528-4800 (listed on the AmEx website at the link below):
[www212.americanexpress.com]
Silly consumer, AMEX is concerned about the security of their assets, not some customer's information.
Yeaaaah I wouldn't have given them any information. And I'm glad for this heads up because if I get a call, I certainly won't be giving them any info.
As far as I know, no scam took place. I opened two Amex credit cards in January of this year, and with each of them the same thing happened: I got a call from Amex (during business hours, though) and had to have a three-way conversation between me, Amex, and my bank. My bank seemed to know about this procedure already and was comfortable with it.
I would contact Amex AND your bank immediately.
Insist that your current account numbers be blocked, and that they both issue you new bank account numbers and credit card numbers.
Demand that both reissue your credit cards, ATM cards - whatever, via overnight mail without charge to you. I hope you aren't too late.
This screamed SCAM when you said someone purporting to be Amex called you at 8:45 p.m. In all the years since 1973, when I got my first Amex card, nobody has EVER called me to verify ANYTHING, let alone after normal business hours.
And for these "Amex" people to initiate a third-party call "to your bank" no less - holy shit, man, GET A BRAIN.
This is a case for Captain Duvel Moneycat!
That sounds a bit scammy to me.
No one should ever give out personal information on a received call. When calling back to a number shown in caller ID, it should be treated exactly the same as a received call.
A proper procedure to notice a financial services customer of a problem or issue or verification that requires personal information from them is to simply instruct them to call the number they know (on their card or their statement) to complete the process. All the CSRs at that number should be trained to handle, or reroute, such calls.
This sounds like a social engineering scam to me. I spent 2 years in fraud prevention with a major credit card bank; I quit last year when my husband and I decided to get the heck out of Delaware.
The general consensus in the industry is that if a customer has doubts about any verification call they receive, they're advised to call the number on the back of their card to verify the call. Better safe than sorry.
I placed literally hundreds of calls to customers to verify possible fraudulent activity (charges and changes to account info) and if a customer had any doubt that I wasn't who I said I was, I simply, quite politely, advised them to call the number on the back of their card.
I can't confirm this is social engineering but unless Amex has suddenly gone totally un-professional, the call does seem pretty smelly.
@kd420: You and I do not yet know that it really was AMEX calling, and really was AMEX's telephone number on the caller ID. If it really was AMEX, then it is clear they do not understand how to properly work with clients that are going to be communicating in an information-secure way.
Chris, any follow-up with Amex on this?
I'd say this was a scam, no doubt.
Last year, my Chase card number was stolen. I had been in Florida at Christmas. Around March, I got a call from Chase fraud protection. In about a week, several suspicious charges hit my account, and they called me to ask about it.
Before I verified ANY information to them, I asked if I could look their number up online and call them back to verify I am actually speaking to Chase. The representative was very happy to let me do so, and gave me a case number. I called their number on the back of my card, asked for fraud prevention, gave the case number, and I was talking again with the same person who called me. He said he didn't mind at all, and preferred working with people who were diligent with their security.
My card was getting charged all over Miami. They canceled the card, sent me a new one, and reversed all of the fraudulent charges. It was a painless experience.
Anyway, my belabored point was, I highly doubt Amex would use such heavy-handed tactics to get you to give up information on an unsolicited call.
There are definitely some morons at Amex who develop their policies and procedures.
A couple years ago I was subjected to one of their arbitrary card freezes while they verified my income. I got a call from Amex telling me they were freezing my cards, and asking them to fax them a completed IRS form that authorized the IRS to send Amex a copy of my most recent tax returns. Just to be clear:
1. Amex calls me.
2. Amex asks me to fax them a form containing my name, address, SSN & signature.
Not surprisingly, after I hung up, I immediately called Amex at the number listed on the back of my card to confirm that this call was legit.
Is Amex not aware of the fact that there are a lot of scammers who will call people and randomly get them to reveal sensitive personal and financial data? Morons.
A) You called back a number in your caller ID. Caller ID is spoofable. You should have called the number on the back of your card.
B) You called back an "AmEx rep" and "verified" info without verifying that the individual actually worked at AmEx.
C) You initiated a three way call with your bank with a third party listening in.
D) You performed verification with a party not confirmed to be CitiBank. If they had your address, it probably was, but the "CitiBank" rep could have been fake too.
E) You performed verification with a third party on the line, which probably involved your account and/or social security number.
F) You definitely gave your address, and possibly even more sensitive information to potential scammers.
Call AmEx from the number on the back of your card NOW and if they can't verify the call, put a credit hold on with the credit bureauas, get new credit card numbers & bank account numbers too.
@pmw:
If they initiated the three way conversation...how do you know that you were actually speaking with your bank?
@SJPadbury:
"Sir, Unless you give us all your personal information without even being sure of who we are, we're shutting off your card."
My response?
"okay. Bye!"
I had to go through the same process when i got my Amex back in october, so it's unlikely to be anything sinister. In my case I was the one initiating the call to Amex. Funnily enough, it involved Citibank too.
I felt uncomfortable with the whole process, but the person who answered the phone at Citi was unfazed and seemed to be used to it.
@SJPadbury: Actually, that's a pretty good bet to make because if they're NOT Amex and they're phishing, they wouldn't have access to cancel your card.
@coopjust: And most, if not all, credit card companies listen to their customers about fraud and will issue new cards as soon as you explain.
@coopjust: Yeah, I think this was fishy too. Either it was a scam or you should be so angry at Amex's treatment of you and your business that you should close the card anyway.
@vildechaia:
Good advice, but I don't think he's really in a position to demand that they foot the bill for overnight shipping when it was his screw-up.
In the future, if you get a call that claims to be from your bank or credit card company, call them back at the number on the back of the card, or on their website.
There's nothing wrong with talking while driving if you have a hands-free setup. I wouldn't be having any conversation that required concentration though, such as credit card activation.
If that dog asked me to participate, I'd be scammed on a daily basis!
I can confirm this story--the same thing happened to me. In my case, the rep asked me to call back using the number on the back of the card if there was any doubt it wasn't Amex. I did, and it was indeed them. They asked me to do a 3-way with my bank, and I did. Funnily enough, it's against my bank's policy to give out my address over the phone, so I read my address to my bank, who confirmed it to Amex. At the end of the call, the Amex rep told me "you are not a victim of identity theft". WTF? I told them I opened the card at the start of the call. Apparently they suspected me of being a scammer.
@kd420: I'm from Mastercard and I'm very concerned about security too. Please email me your account number and address to mastercard at hotmail dot com. I promise that I'm really from Mastercard... how else would it be in my email address?
Kd420, do you have some type of information that the OP did not provide that leads you to believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the call was from Amex?
Not to be an a** or anything but the OP got scammed and should have known better. If it seemed weird to you then why did you "relent" until they had all of your info? I seriously doubt that banks are doing "address verification" at 9 p.m. by calling your primary bank... Why didn't you just hang up and call the number on the back of your AMEX card?
Call American Express and have them issue you a new card. As far as all the other info that you released... IDK.
To beat a dead horse, you got scammed. You should NEVER call the number that is given to you by your caller ID or left on voice mail.. duh, it could easily be a fake number. ALWAYS find a real number, either via official documentation or the internet, and then call that number.
The very fact that the lady was pressuring you into giving out your info is a big red flag, but the fact that she was unable to verify who she was by just saying "call us back via a number you're comfortable with" i.e. the back of the card number or one from a contact info page on the internet is the ultimate. I've had a similar situation happen to me a couple of times and in one case once I told the person that I was uncomfortable, told me to call the # via 611 (this was a cell phone scam) or via internet contact info. I did, and it turned out that it was a scam, and that the scammer was obviously just trying to make me feel safe.
Oh wow. I just opened an American Express almost 2 months ago to the day. I believe I'm at the 62 day mark. I've never gotten any phone calls from them at all. I would very seriously change all of my account information, as this just reeks of scam.
Washington Mutual did the same thing to me about 5 years ago. I got an automated call from their fraud prevention line, and called back to make sure everything was ok. The first thing they did was "verify" me. When I refused, they said they might cancel my card, so I hung up on them. 3 weeks later I got a letter saying my account was suspended for fraud reasons. I canceled it the next day.
Holy hell man...call Amex and Citi NOW, explain what happened, and request new cards and the whole shebang.
Now, what I originally came to post:
I'm a member of a state employee's credit union. By being immediate family of me, my parents are eligible to be members, and went through the process of joining. My SSN was entered incorrectly (they had to identify me as a sponsor, basically), and we didn't know this.
Then I get a call out of the blue, from someone purporting to be an employee, saying there was a problem with my SSN and would I please verify it. When I explained why I would not do so, but if she would tell me what branch she was at, I'd be happy to call and ask for her by name. She got very belligerent, and refused. I then said "Well, then you can initiate contact through the mail feature of online banking." She also refused to do this. I told her I was going to have to hang up.
I figured out what branch she was at by looking at the format for phone numbers, and called and was immediately put through to the manager. Turns out it was a new employee simply completing the tasks she was given, but not operating according to policy, and he'd address the issue with more training.
The kicker? She is an African immigrant. Complete with accent.
@hillsrovey: I opened a charge account last September with them. I've never gotten such a call either.
I can confirm, this same thing happened to me with an AmEx card that was activated in February. Seemed weird to me too, but my credit union seemed to be familiar with the process.
@SJPadbury: the OP didn't speak with the person that contacted him, he called AmEx directly after missing the first call, so he did know he was speaking with an employee. It doesn't excuse the unprofessional and bizarre nature of the employee but at least the OP didn't just hand over his info to whoever called him.
@aguacarbonica: Hands-free doesn't actually help reduce the distraction, unfortunately. Random citation: [www.speechtechmag.com]
@seattleperson: actually I stand corrected, it looks as if the OP called the number in his phone's history back. I would have at least pulled out my credit card and called the number on the back. This does look like fraud to me.
Probably part of the new Amex policy to get rid of as many customers as possible.